OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 24, 2014, 08:04:22 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bishops and Elders  (Read 1249 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« on: August 18, 2007, 12:55:23 AM »

Among the early church fathers, it was noted that the offices of elder and bishop were identical, and weren't differentiated until later, and that plurality of elders was the norm for church government. St. Jerome (347-420) "In Epistle Titus", vol. iv, said, "Elder is identical with bishop, and before parties multiplied under diabolical influence, Churches were governed by a council of elders." This observation was also made by Chrysostom (349-407) in "Homilia i, in Phil. i, 1" and Theodoret (393-457) in "Interpret ad. Phil. iii", 445.

this is an extract from a wikipedia article about Presbyterianism about the office of bishop and elder. Is this claim got any ground and they say there is evidence in the early church father, where is this evidence?
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2007, 01:06:32 AM »

Fwiw, here is the document of Chrysostom cited. I would agree that the structure of the Church evolved as it went early on, but it might be incorrect to say that the offices "weren't differentiated," especially using 4th/5th century sources. It might be better to say that after the dust had settled, the Church used some of the terms interchangibly.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,726


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2007, 01:43:22 AM »

It has been a while since I read Hippolytus' On the Apostolic Tradition, but I seem to recall that in that book bishops and elders were two different groups, with the bishops being above the elders.  I think it was written in the early 200's.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2007, 01:55:31 AM »

Ignatius' (genuine) epistles (c. 107 CE) might also be something you'd want to check out, though IMO the repeated and almost insistent tone of the clergy dividions indicates that what Ignatius believed wasn't yet universally accepted.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2007, 06:11:37 AM »

Any particular epistle, Asteriktos?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2007, 10:26:07 AM »

From the evidence I have read, the monarchical episcopate (one bishop per city) was early on in some cities whereas in other ones there was a council of presbyters. The terms were used interchangeably though, and the presbyters on a council were actually all what we would consider to be bishops (fullness of the priesthood).  As parishes developed, it was soon established that only one person should preside in a city and only he received the full ordination. I think we see this in the office of chorbishop, or bishop of country churches, who was originally a full bishop but later was only what we would consider an archimandrite or archpriest.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 10:26:21 AM by Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.046 seconds with 32 queries.