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Author Topic: Oriental family receives Eastern Chrismation  (Read 8396 times) Average Rating: 0
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_Seraphim_
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« on: August 17, 2007, 01:44:37 AM »

I am Serbian Orthodox.  The only other Orthodox parish in my city is Greek Orthodox.
Recently, an Ethiopian Orthodox family moved here.  I don’t know much about the situation, but I assume they came to our Serbian/Eastern parish because there are no Ethiopian/Oriental parishes.

The Ethiopians wanted to fully participate in the Mysteries of the Church, so the whole family was Chrismated… and then received Communion.

I filmed the actual Chrismation and the Dance of Isaiah which followed.
I posted this two-part video on YouTube.

Orthodox Chrismation pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB7hDLnhiWo

Orthodox Chrismation pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvhhQeFykeE


The reason I post the links here in the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox section is for two reasons:
One- I just want to simply share the beauty and grace of the videos.
Two- I am curious to hear from both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox what their perspective is on these events.

God bless
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 02:02:09 AM »

Dear Seraphim,

Sorry, but I would certainly rather have seen the "grace and beauty" of this Ethiopian Orthodox family worshiping in their own Orthodox tradition.

I'm not sure what you want us OO to say. I am personally saddened by the situation. I am furthermore compelled to question whether this family was fully informed of the situation they were getting themselves into (i.e. the fact they were formally renouncing their OO tradition, and that in the event that an Ethiopian parish were to ever become accessible to them they would be barred from communing there etc.), and whether they were given sufficient opportuniy to discover any OO parishes close enough to make the effort of travelling to.

Maybe I should get my camcorder ready next time an EO family is being received into the OO Church so we can compare perspectives?
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 02:15:25 AM »

I also wonder if they realize they are taking themselves out of communion with the Ethiopian Church.  It could be that there really is no OO church anywhere near them and they feel this is the only alternative they have.  It's sad that they felt they had to give up their own ancient and beautiful tradition.  Not that I am putting down the Serbian Church, which also has a rich tradition which includes many martyrs and much suffering.  I am a great admirer of Patriarch Pavle.  It's just that the Ethiopian Church is so amazing, I can't imagine anyone born into that tradition wanting to cut themselves off from it unless they had to.  This must have been difficult for them.
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 02:26:50 AM »

I think this is a sad dilemma reflective of the ongoing schism between the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches. From what I can see this could be very well a sincere and failthful family who acknowledges the importance of the church and simply wants to fully participate in the liturgical life of the church. And since we acknowledge that such active participation is of paramount importance in the spiritual journey of the faithful, one could understand the dilemma that the family is posed with.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 02:30:15 AM »

The Ethiopians wanted to fully participate in the Mysteries of the Church, so the whole family was Chrismated… and then received Communion.

The reason I post the links here in the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox section is for two reasons:
One- I just want to simply share the beauty and grace of the videos.
Two- I am curious to hear from both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox what their perspective is on these events.
I am EO, yet I side with EkhristosAnesti on this one.  Can this family not participate fully in the Mysteries of the Church as OO without being re-Chrismated?  Why is it so beautiful that they're received into an EO church via Chrismation?  This to me just represents the sad fact that many bishops, out of ignorance or misplaced traditionalism, still see the OO as outside the Church and in need of re-Chrismation--at least they weren't also re-baptized.  (Were they?)

I know you probably don't intend this, but your sharing these videos could be seen by OO as an underhanded statement of "only the followers of Chalcedon are members of the true Church, and the Oriental Orthodox are outside the Church," which belongs more in the private EO/OO board than here.  Again, I trust that this is not what you mean to say.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 02:43:30 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 02:33:33 AM »

It's too bad they didn't have an Antiochian parish close by, perhaps something could have been arranged along the lines of communing but not converting...
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 02:49:32 AM »

I am EO, yet I side with EkhristosAnesti on this one.  Can this family not participate fully in the Mysteries of the Church as OO without being re-Chrismated?  Why is it so beautiful that they're received into an EO church via Chrismation?  This to me just represents the sad fact that many bishops, out of ignorance or misplaced traditionalism, still see the OO as outside the Church and in need of re-Chrismation--at least they weren't also re-baptized.  (Were they?)

As far as I understand the EO and OO are two families of Orthodoxy who are yet not in full communion and as such chrismation is the minimal canonical standard for the reception of an individual into the church from another family.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 02:53:39 AM »

As far as I understand the EO and OO are two families of Orthodoxy who are yet not in full communion and as such chrismation is the minimal canonical standard for the reception of an individual into the church from another family.
Actually, I believe the Antiochian EO Patriarchate and the Syrian OO Patriarchate have agreed that even Chrismation is no longer necessary for intercommunion.  Will someone correct me if I'm wrong on this?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 02:54:31 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
falafel333
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 02:57:51 AM »

Actually, I believe the Antiochian EO Patriarchate and the Syrian OO Patriarchate have agreed that even Chrismation is no longer necessary for intercommunion.  Will someone correct me if I'm wrong on this?

I think this is correct but really is an exception to the rule...
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 03:00:01 AM »

I seem to remember my priest saying something about OO's being recieved by confession, but I'll call to confirm.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 03:00:38 AM »

I think this is correct but really is an exception to the rule...
The rule may be re-Chrismation, and I will submit to this rule if I'm called to do so, but that doesn't mean I have to like the rule. Sad
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 03:05:15 AM »

I seem to remember my priest saying something about OO's being recieved by confession, but I'll call to confirm.
What jurisdiction is your parish?  What I read falafel333 saying is that Confession may be the means of reception in some jurisdictions, such as the Antiochian churches, but that this practice has NOT gained universal acceptance.  Outside the Antiochian Church, I think re-Chrismation is still universally required.
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 03:11:25 AM »

Quote
What jurisdiction is your parish?  What I read falafel333 saying is that Confession may be the means of reception in some jurisdictions, such as the Antiochian churches, but that this practice has NOT gained universal acceptance. 


I'm Antiochian.  But again, I'll call my priest in the morning to confirm.
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 03:54:38 AM »

I know you probably don't intend this, but your sharing these videos could be seen by OO as an underhanded statement of "only the followers of Chalcedon are members of the true Church, and the Oriental Orthodox are outside the Church," which belongs more in the private EO/OO board than here.  Again, I trust that this is not what you mean to say.

I don't think Seraphim meant anything bad by his original post.  I have always read his posts here as being positive toward the OO's.  I think he just wanted to share something interesting that happened at his church and get everyone's opinion.  It is a sensitive issue, but I think we can all work through it.   Smiley

By the way, while watching the videos, it seemed to me that the Serbian church where this was taking place had no pews.  Cool!    Grin  Maybe we can start a thread about that.   Grin

Sorry, it's late... 
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2007, 04:00:33 AM »

In all fairness to the Easterners, I believe the Orientals are even more rigid when it comes to these issues and for the most part actually perform a complete rebaptism of any non-Oriental person converting to their church.
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2007, 04:07:51 AM »

“Sorry, but I would certainly rather have seen the "grace and beauty" of this Ethiopian Orthodox family worshiping in their own Orthodox tradition.”
EkhristosAnesti


Believe me, brother, I understand what you mean.  I very much enjoy watching Ethiopian Orthodox videos on YouTube… I love witnessing ALL types of Orthodox worship (both OO and EO alike).  The “beauty” I referred to was not at all in reference to the OOs “giving up” their tradition, but rather that the OOs didn’t have to be re-baptized… which seemed like a beautiful thing to me because it shows the minuscule amount of separation that exists between OOs and EOs.  I hope you remember me from my prior posts on the OO music thread… I LOVE Oriental Orthodoxy and pray for the union of OO and EO every single day!  I pray no offence was taken from either my posts or the videos.

“Maybe I should get my camcorder ready next time an EO family is being received into the OO Church so we can compare perspectives?”
EkhristosAnesti

That would certainly be most interesting  Wink

“It's just that the Ethiopian Church is so amazing…”
Salpy


Indeed, the Ethiopian Church is incredible.

“As far as I understand the EO and OO are two families of Orthodoxy who are yet not in full communion and as such chrismation is the minimal canonical standard for the reception of an individual into the church from another family.”
falafel333


This is how I perceived the situation.  They went through the most “minimal” amount of reception… implying that it wasn’t even a “conversion” to begin with.  The Chrismation was only done because of the technical schism of communion between EO and OO.

“Can this family not participate fully in the Mysteries of the Church as OO without being re-Chrismated?”
PeterTheAleut


This will only be true when EO and OO are in full communion (which I pray will soon come!)

“I know you probably don't intend this, but your sharing these videos could be seen by OO as an underhanded statement of "only the followers of Chalcedon are members of the true Church, and the Oriental Orthodox are outside the Church," which belongs more in the private EO/OO board than here.  Again, I trust that this is not what you mean to say.”
PeterTheAleut


You understand my intentions well.  I actually intended/hoped for the opposite of “underhandedness.”  I hoped this would cause rejoicing that the rift between EO and OO is shrinking (which is why the family was received through Chrismation only).  I also hoped it would inspire us all to keep striving for the day that EO and OO are in full communion and no procedure will be necessary for members of one to receive the Eucharist at the other… for we will all be one Body!

“perhaps something could have been arranged along the lines of communing but not converting”
Asteriktos


Until full communion is restored between EO and OO, intercommunion of the faithful is not possible without some kind of procedure for reception (i.e. Chrismation).

“Actually, I believe the Antiochian EO Patriarchate and the Syrian OO Patriarchate have agreed that even Chrismation is no longer necessary for intercommunion.”
PeterTheAleut


Even though, as falafel333 pointed out, this is “an exception to the rule,” I pray the day will soon come that this exception will become the normal procedure between OO and EO.  I long for the day I can receive the blessed Eucharist from an OO chalice.

“The rule may be re-Chrismation, and I will submit to this rule if I'm called to do so, but that doesn't mean I have to like the rule.”
PeterTheAleut


I feel the same way  Undecided


Thanks everyone for sharing.  I didn’t know what reactions to expect here, I just knew that I needed to share the videos and see what happens.  May everything stated here be used by God to help lead the EO and OO back into full communion.

God bless
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2007, 04:35:22 AM »

Quote
Until full communion is restored between EO and OO, intercommunion of the faithful is not possible without some kind of procedure for reception (i.e. Chrismation).

Actually, in Antiochian parishes, Oriental Orthodox Christians can take communion without leaving their OO faith or joining the EO faith. I've been in two parishes that do this, and they were authorized not only by their bishop, but by the head of the entire Antiochian Church.
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2007, 05:09:03 AM »

“Actually, in Antiochian parishes, Oriental Orthodox Christians can take communion without leaving their OO faith or joining the EO faith. I've been in two parishes that do this, and they were authorized not only by their bishop, but by the head of the entire Antiochian Church.”
Asteriktos

Well glory to God!  That is so beautiful.  This just shows that the road is already being paved for full communion of all members.  We must trust in God’s timing and praise Him for such hopeful signs.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 06:31:01 AM »

Dear Seraphim,

I'm not sure that the inference you draw from the observation that EO's chrismate OO's is valid. After all, don't many jurisdictions of the EO communion chrismate anyone who has been baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity?

Chrismation is no trivial rite. It is the seal of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is of no effect in the absence of true Chrismation; the two Sacraments are inextricable from each other.

In any event, just to make it clear, I was not attempting, even in the slightest, to critisise EO practice. I was not expressing any sentiment with respect to how EO's should accept any potential converts.

To us OO's, those Ethiopians have, whether consciously or not, renounced their OO Faith and their OO Baptism and Chrismation. This is something that is obviously only going to displease and even hurt any OO. I say this with all due respect to the EO Church.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 01:24:01 PM »

PTA:

According mt my priest, the Antiochian church recieves members by profession of faith.
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 02:03:25 PM »

Armenians and Indian Orthodox receive Eastern Orthodox (and Catholics) to communion as is, in my experience.

Copts normally baptize Catholics and chrismate Catholics. With no baptismal certificate I am aware of Copts baptizing a Russian Orthodox woman in my town.

The Council of Trullo specifies that Non-Chalcedonians be received into Orthodoxy via confession of faith.  The Synod of 1755 moved this to baptism but to my knowledge it never has been more than chrismation in practice. Still, chrismating a Non Chalcedonian would have to be seen as akreveia since the canon specifies something less and there would have to be a pastoral reason to do this.
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 03:06:44 PM »

Yes, in my Antiochian church, we have several Eritrean families who commune. They were received by confession. The Eritreans continue to come to our church even after an Ethiopian church moved into town. They said they did not want to be mistaken for Ethiopians...
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2007, 03:53:10 PM »

In all fairness to the Easterners, I believe the Orientals are even more rigid when it comes to these issues and for the most part actually perform a complete rebaptism of any non-Oriental person converting to their church.

In the Armenian Church, we do no such thing.
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2007, 04:45:50 PM »

I am Serbian Orthodox.  The only other Orthodox parish in my city is Greek Orthodox.
Recently, an Ethiopian Orthodox family moved here.  I don’t know much about the situation, but I assume they came to our Serbian/Eastern parish because there are no Ethiopian/Oriental parishes.

The Ethiopians wanted to fully participate in the Mysteries of the Church, so the whole family was Chrismated… and then received Communion.

I filmed the actual Chrismation and the Dance of Isaiah which followed.
I posted this two-part video on YouTube.

Orthodox Chrismation pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB7hDLnhiWo

Orthodox Chrismation pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvhhQeFykeE


The reason I post the links here in the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox section is for two reasons:
One- I just want to simply share the beauty and grace of the videos.
Two- I am curious to hear from both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox what their perspective is on these events.

God bless


Shock; distress then sadness then a feeling of loss and confusion...a sureal 'other worldly; "this is not really happening kinda feeling.

This discribes my current initial reaction to this.

I am upset. Not in a bad way......spiritually upset

God help me.

I will pray over this.

I am sure that maybe I should have a better attitude about this; especilly as a clergyman.

Please pray for me.

Thanks for the info and the video.

God Bless you...

Your Servant
Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2007, 05:11:50 PM »

Armenians and Indian Orthodox receive Eastern Orthodox (and Catholics) to communion as is, in my experience.


Yes, in my church I know my priest will give communion to EO's without any kind of conversion.  We sometimes get EO Arabs who come to our church because their Armenian friends come here, etc.  It's not a problem.  My priest just gives them communion.  I think that is the practice in Armenian churches right now.  Of course, if an EO wanted to make a formal conversion to the Armenian Church, I think it would be by chrismation.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2007, 06:15:08 PM »

I mean when are we going to wake up?

Who is watching?

To re-baptise baptised christians is absolutely lawless, runaway and scandelous.

Is it not enough that the our fathers failed to keep with sound doctrine "to love one another above all else" and to "be of ONE mind"?

Chalcedon does not establish who is orthodox and who is not. The argument at that meeting was(and still is) a shame on the bishops not the church. WE must pray for them. These people are innocent. They brought a blessing to the Serbian church not the other way.

What causes this bizzar act is another example of how un-orthodox we orthodox are becoming.

Their is only one baptism according to the Holy Church. Does this act keep with that fact?

If it is believed that these innocent souls from the Ethiopian ORTHODOX church needed baptism than this implies that all of the Ethiopians in the Orthodox church of Ethiopia need baptism including all the Patriarchs including the current HH Abuna Paulos.

I can not beileve that somebody thought this was appropriate. I am sad that my people were treated this way. It seems that they have a limited undertstanding for who they are as orthodox christians.

This embarrases the Serbian community as it paints a picture of 'upity rightiousness' that is usually found in the RC church.

God is the Judge...

We are all Orthodox.

WE Ethiopians have been orthodox since the 1st century which is far longer than most western orthodox communities.

WE were Orthodox in the Lord Christ before there was a Byzantium or Constantinople or Chalcedon.

WE also have a biblical relationship with God that goes back before the Messiah Christ came.

WE played a key part in his coming. Read for yousleves in the psalms, Izaiah, Amos, Zephaniyah, ! & 2 Kings etc....

It is no accident that the Ethiopian is the first fruit of the Church of the new covenant .. ..Read Acts Ch 26-28. Acts 26-28 shows that the See of Ethiopia is established in Jerusalem at Gaza not by St Philip persay but through St Philip by the direct power of the Holy Spirit.

So we are by this fact of scripture the only christian community established IN Jerusalem although we are a country and a people far south of Jerusalem in the heart of Africa. This is no simple matter.

Let me be clear .... The Ethiopian Church was/is Established in Jerusalem then spread to Ethiopia via KMT (Egypt) through KSH (Sudan) through Mero and Axum all the way to Somali and across Aden into Yemen.....ALL THIS AREA AT THE TIME WAS THE LARGEST PART OF THE ETHIOPIAN EMPIRE.

WE are also the oldest Christian orthodox country on earth. And the only one still left today.

During all the world wars of the west and since the earliest time Ethiopians freely walked about openly with crosses emblazened on our heads and embroidered on all clothing. Such an open expression of christian faith was not allowed in much of the west and many parts of the east especially during the mid 18th and through all of the 19th and a good part of the twentieth century.

This is blessing that we are humble about; but we see much in Gods blessing on those who were in countries that suffered without the freedom to express the true faith. This suffering was a blessing that keeps those communities united and focused....strong. Christainity is built on suffering.

WE had persecutions as well but nothing as catostrophic as in the west. But for us it was our suffering and we are better for it in many ways.

WE are the largest single orthodox community on earth. WE have over 30 thousand churches inside Ethiopia alone not to mention our churches and missions all over the world.

WE are not some 'disheveled' poor Africans without God and his grace; "hopeless without guidance", "in need of saving". This is the satorial premeditation buried in the "puffed up" western mind....but in all truth this thriking is a gross misconception of Africa, its people, its culture, its place on the world stage; particularly where the Holy church is concerned.

I will stop here.

Just a bit of data on what is ment when we say The Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In passing......

When you hear the term "Ethiopian Church" open your bible to read obout this community and count backward by thousands of years to track our history (which is church history in general) to trace our relationship with God and the Children of Isreal. Or start at the beginning...Read Genisis Chapter 2 verses 11 thorugh 15 where you will find the name "Ethiopia" mentioned even before Israel. Actually we are the first nation mentioned in holy scripture. This is the land which encompassed a huge part of the place where God placed Adam and his wife Eve. WE Ethiopians Consider Adam our first king and Patriarch.

Not that we needed proof from science; but even science has found in todays Ethiopia the oldest human remains to date.



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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2007, 09:30:54 PM »

Quote
I am sure that maybe I should have a better attitude about this; especilly as a clergyman.

I think your response is entirely appropriate.

I think too many times OO feel hesitant to say or do anything that may seem to tread on EO toes. When the integrity and Orthodoxy of our Communion is being challenged however, we must recognise our priorities. We cannot be reckless nor negligent where our Church's interests are concerned, or we will be failing our divine calling. Needless to say, many EO are more than happy to tread on our toes.

Without hesitation, if you were within close proximity to this family I would encourage you to find an OO Church next to them and to bring them back to their Orthodox church. Likewise goes for the sad, sad circumstance that maksim relates. You would have a duty to make sure those Eritreans know that they will be held accountable for allowing their political-national views to be prior to the more weightier matters.
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2007, 09:58:04 PM »

Through DNA analysis we can now trace migrations of all peoples from what we call Ethiopia.  It is the root of the Nile.  14 pharoahs were Nubian.  Aristotle acknowledges his source of philosophy: the Egyptians (Africans).  Pythagoras traveled there too.  The "greeks" are essentially an african migratory people who never lost touch with their homies who formed incredible schools of knowledge together on the African continent.  Skin color changes as families migrate away from the greater gene pool.  The further and more generations that go through this cycle away from the greater gene pool, the lighter skin and more distinctive features they may get, but we are all one people with common ancestral and spiritual roots.  Long before Judaism and Tenach, Africans expected God to be Born of a Virgin.  When she came through Africa with her Child, she and He were recognized and loved, the long awaited second Adam and Eve.  Africa has the oldest records of monotheistic belief in the world.  Triadalogical philosophy and mathematics were discovered and developed by Greeks who went to learn from the ancient African schools mainly in KMT.  Why do peoples who migrated far east, the Chinese, the Hopi, the ancient Yoga schools in India etc. have triadological monotheistic teachings?  Could it be that they have been building from existing family tradition and not merely keen insight into divinely created Nature?  Africans have always been sure to protect the revelation of Christ that they had waited for from misinterpretation because it was the key to the gospel truth that Incarnate Word of God walks among us.  Where do practices like meditation and yoga come from?  If science is correct and conscious man as we classify him today first appeared in Ethiopia, and if the Bible is correct that after the first human death (which was MURDER), a wicked mentality was born on the earth among men. In that time, the earliest of days, while the scent of paradise and stench of death was fresh on our mind, people began to "call on the name of the Lord" without which, we are told we cannot be saved.  Calling on the name of the Lord never stopped in greater Ethiopia since that time of its origin.  This practice was always present.  It is called metanoia.  It can be simply summarized in the prayer "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner"

When the Roman government realized that the orthodox christians were better at being good people (civilized) than they were, they legalized it then (perhaps innocently, but definitely willfully) tried to enforce it using methods that had already failed to bring peace among people.  The ascetics of greater Ethiopia (*those who continued to call on the name of the Lord as they always had given every moment of revelation they experienced) took their existing practice of martyrdom and further developed it and established themselves as the conscience of the Orthodox church which was now official part of society.  The great theological doctors who faithfully worked out orthodoxy in legal terms at the request of society - the likes of Athanasius, Cyril  - themselves saw the ascetics (who called on the name of the Lord, practiced metanoia and perceived God directly beyond words, intellect, and learning) as the source of legitimacy for the faith they articulated.  

Any attempt to have a magical view of church councils, papacy, bible is simply a limitation on the full orthodox tradition of the church - a tradition which calls us first to repentance and praise and proclaims what it is that God has done to make our metanoia real, not fantasy.  We are not saved by affiliation with magic words no matter how profoundly universally true they may be or who said them.

Who's lost today and why?  Phyletists are lost because they don't know who we are.  The Chalcedon event is the product of Phyletists (both sides).  That video is murder if you ask me!
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2007, 11:18:25 PM »

Hello All

Locally in Northern Virginia, my Coptic (St. Mark's) parish and the local Carpatho-Russian (The Nativity) parish allow the reception of communion between both families, without any formal acceptance/rejection of Chalcedon.  During the Liturgy of the Nativity, I am almost 100% sure I saw a woman from the local Carpatho-Russ. parish celebrating with us during the Liturgy (she looked Russian, was a bit "lost" during the Liturgy, sat with the men, and made the sign of the Cross from right to left).  Also, I received communion (with the priest's full knowledge that I belonged to the OO Church) a few times at the Carpatho-Russ. parish.  To be honest, after the first Liturgy I attended at the Russ. parish he came up to me with a few deacons and offered me some "blessed bread" (I suppose, it wasn't communion).  We chatted shortly and he asked me why I hadn't received communion.  I said something along the lines, "I attend St. Mark's Coptic Orthodox church, not sure if I was allowed to receive communion or not."  He simply said, "We are all Orthodox.  St. Mark's has a wonderful priest, and we allow the reception of communion between our parishoneers." 
The liturgies were both unique and different, however both were very beautiful.  I think at a grassroots level, both "families" are "reuniting" while the bishops of both sides linger on how to fully resolve the problems of the past.

Shawn 
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2007, 12:58:20 AM »

That is interesting.  I wonder how many Coptic and EO churches do that.  As I said, that is common among Armenians, but I thought Copts and EO's were more conservative.
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2007, 02:12:47 AM »

"I think at a grassroots level, both "families" are "reuniting" while the bishops of both sides linger on how to fully resolve the problems of the past."
coptic orthodox boy

I pray this movement will continue to grow.

...and to every OO reading this thread:
I want you all to know that I am not a clergymen, and I was in no way part of the decision-making process for this family's Chrismation (no, they were not re-Baptized). 

It is worth noting:
I have witnessed multiple life-long Protestants and Roman Catholics receive Baptism and Chrismation at my parish... not once has there ever been someone at my parish received by Chrismation alone... UNTIL the Ethiopian family came.  THIS was my reason for being hopeful about the situation.  However, after reading so many comments here about all the current intercommunion between OO and EO (which I had NO idea was going on ANYwhere in the world), I am left very confused.  At first I rejoiced... and now I feel like crying.  Embarrassed

For good estate of the holy churches of God, and for the union of all men, let us pray to the Lord
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2007, 02:52:42 AM »

Seraphim,

Do you know whether or not there really are any OO churches within a reasonable distance from where you are?  I think that question really is important, as some people seem to be assuming that there is an OO parish nearby and that this family chose to convert anyway.  That of course makes it an entirely different situation than if there is no OO parish within a reasonable distance.

I live in a large city with many OO churches in it, so for me this would never be an issue.  I have a friend, however, who lived for a while in Alaska.  Alaska has no Armenian church and, as far as I know, no OO churches of any other kind.  If I am mistaken, someone tell me.  The fact is, my friend was only able to commune a few times a year, when she could either fly down to Washinton State, or visit down where I am.  So most Sundays she either stayed home, or visited other churches where she couldn't commune. 

Now my friend was actually content to do that during the years she lived in Alaska.  However, when you have a family like the Ethiopians in the video, you probably would want to have a church near you where you can commune more regularly.  You don't want to restrict your communing to Sundays when you have the time and the money to load your whole family on an airplane and fly to a city with an OO church in it. 

I'm not saying it was a good thing for the family in the video to leave the Ethiopian Church.  However, we don't know their circumstances, or what we would do in their place.  Perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to judge them.

Same with judging the Serbian priest.  If the priest was actively engaging in "sheep stealing" and used his influence to grab the family away from a nearby Ethiopian parish, then that is deplorable.  However, if this family really does live too far from an OO church to commune there, what else was the priest to do when approached by this family?  Was he to drive them away and tell them they couldn't join his church because they were Ethiopian?  I don't think that would be right.  Also, was he to receive them without chrismation, even though the canons of his Church tell him he needs to chrismate them?  I don't think that would be right either, as disobedience is not a good thing in either the OO or EO traditions.  Also, even if the priest were to just commune them without chrismation, wouldn't that have cut them off from the Ethiopian Church, as well?  Unless your Church is as liberal as mine, doesn't partaking of another Church's sacraments cut you off from your own?

Personally, I think it would be great if all EO's and OO's could just commune at each other's altars.  My own Church has that attitude.  However, most OO and EO Churches are not that liberal.  Most EO Churches require chrismation and I think the Coptic Church requires baptism and chrismation.  It would be interesting to know what the Ethiopian Church requires. 

In any event, I don't think we know enough about this particular situation to pass judgement on anyone.  If anything, this should motivate us to support our Church when it establishes missions in new areas.
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2007, 02:53:36 AM »

Dear Seraphim,

Rest-assured that we all agree that you had no sinister intentions whatsoever with this thread; the purity of your motivation was noted earlier and there is no disputing that.

Let me furthermore stress that as sad as we find the situation to be from our perspective, we cannot fault the clergy involved either, especially in the absence of information regarding the kind of advice and information the Ethiopians were given prior to their reception. It could very well possibly be that they did and said all that they could and ultimately did that which they felt they had the duty to do in those circumstances.

In any event I do not see any point on dwelling on this issue any further.
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2007, 07:37:30 AM »

please no one from the OO or EO take offence to this possibly ignorant comment but is the nature of Christ the defining factor that splits us and if so how does this change our Theology? Its not drastically different like nestorius! Is the problem more linguistic then theological?
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2007, 09:27:52 AM »

In my parish we have several Ethiopians and Eritreans who regularly attend liturgy; some commmune, while others do not. I've noticed in one family that attends, the kids commune but the parents do not. Perhaps that means the parents have remained OO but, for the sake of convenience, have had their kids baptised in the EO church. I believe one Ethiopian couple recently got married there, which would suggest that they are full members of the EO (which would involve chrismation).

And just for the record, my bishop is completely against proselytism, let alone "sheep stealing."

That being said, when a Coptic friend of mine visited the church and asked my priest (who is an Athonite monk btw) whether he could commune, he was told that with the consent of the Bishops of both sides, and a 'talk' (I assume to ensure he understood the EO/OO situation and that he was in good standing with his church) he would be permitted Holy Communion. No talk of leaving the Coptic Church or receiving chrismation.
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2007, 11:41:17 AM »

please no one from the OO or EO take offence to this possibly ignorant comment but is the nature of Christ the defining factor that splits us and if so how does this change our Theology? Its not drastically different like nestorius! Is the problem more linguistic then theological?

You might want to look at reviving one of the more recent threads which discussed this.  This has been discussed in the OO folder many times before. 
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2007, 01:06:55 PM »

You might want to look at reviving one of the more recent threads which discussed this.  This has been discussed in the OO folder many times before. 
Here's just one of the latest threads on this subject:

Question for Oriental Orthodox on beliefs
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2007, 01:49:33 AM »

“Seraphim,
Do you know whether or not there really are any OO churches within a reasonable distance from where you are?  I think that question really is important, as some people seem to be assuming that there is an OO parish nearby and that this family chose to convert anyway.  That of course makes it an entirely different situation than if there is no OO parish within a reasonable distance.”
Salpy


There is no OO parish within several hours driving distance.  My city is overall very pagan and extremely blessed to ANY Orthodox parishes at all.

“You don't want to restrict your communing to Sundays when you have the time and the money to load your whole family on an airplane and fly to a city with an OO church in it.”
Salpy


Exactly

“Same with judging the Serbian priest.  If the priest was actively engaging in "sheep stealing" and used his influence to grab the family away from a nearby Ethiopian parish, then that is deplorable.  However, if this family really does live too far from an OO church to commune there, what else was the priest to do when approached by this family?  Was he to drive them away and tell them they couldn't join his church because they were Ethiopian?  I don't think that would be right.”
Salpy


Once again, you hit the nail right on the head.  The nearest OO parish is an entire day’s drive from our city.

“Also, was he to receive them without chrismation, even though the canons of his Church tell him he needs to chrismate them?  I don't think that would be right either, as disobedience is not a good thing in either the OO or EO traditions.”
Salpy


My priest has NEVER tried to bring in potential converts from the Greek parish in town… and thus I seriously doubt he would try to do such a thing with the OO.  He has repeatedly made numerous comments about his own enthusiasm for EO and OO reunion.

“Dear Seraphim,

Rest-assured that we all agree that you had no sinister intentions whatsoever with this thread; the purity of your motivation was noted earlier and there is no disputing that.

Let me furthermore stress that as sad as we find the situation to be from our perspective, we cannot fault the clergy involved either, especially in the absence of information regarding the kind of advice and information the Ethiopians were given prior to their reception. It could very well possibly be that they did and said all that they could and ultimately did that which they felt they had the duty to do in those circumstances.

In any event I do not see any point on dwelling on this issue any further.”
EkhristosAnesti


I am so glad that my brother in Christ who has shared so much of his own Orthodox tradition with me has this perspective and patient understanding.

“And just for the record, my bishop is completely against proselytism, let alone "sheep stealing.”
Orthodox11


Praise God that I have never encountered ANY kind of “sheep stealing” mentality in Orthodoxy.

As I stated earlier…
May everything stated here be used by God to help lead the EO and OO back into full communion.

God bless

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2007, 04:07:20 AM »

In one instance I know some greek students working or on an exchange program in Bangalore, were regular at the Indian Orthodox liturgy, when the asked about receiving the Eucharist, the priest called up the Metropolitan, who asked the priest to commune them without any profession of faith being made.

Atleast this seems to be the current practice with respect to EO. Catholics are received in the Indian Church by confession of faith.

Are OO's being received into the EO church aware of what they are doing. I  know of an Indian family that immigrated to the US in the early 70's. They looked up Orthodox in the phone book and joined the Greek archdiocese (no Indian church was around then). Their children were baptized in the EO and so on. After 35+ years of officially being officially their living room is still crowded with icons of Indian saints.
Their personal devotions and prayer book is  still OO. 
Now an Indian parish has been formed nearby so they go to the Indian church for feast days. They don't seem to see the contradiction. And they are so emotionally attached with the EO parish, that they can't think of rejoining the Indian church.
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2007, 02:47:13 PM »

I was informed by my priest that there is an informal communion between the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Coptic Church. I'm uncertain as to whether this extends to the rest of the OO churches.

Recently a Coptic Christian came to our (Antiochian) parish after having attended St. Vladimir's, and he was received by profession of faith in the Seven Councils. He is now an Antiochian priest in a NY parish.

Incidentally, when his grandmother died (still as a part of the Coptic Church as far as I'm aware) we commemorated her as we would have one of our own. From what I gather, us Antiochians generally are of the school of thought regarding the schism between EO and OO as one based in linguistic rather than theological differences, although obviously formal reconciliation has yet to occur.
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2007, 06:09:05 PM »

Sounds like full reunion is on the way...  Cheesy

Praise God!

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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2007, 06:26:21 PM »

I am actually surprised at how much intercommunion is being described here.  I didn't think it was this widespread.
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2007, 07:55:16 PM »

btw,

Welcome to the OC.net Forum, Trevor.  I hope your time here is edifying and fruitful, not to mention enjoyable.

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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2007, 08:51:49 PM »

"I am actually surprised at how much intercommunion is being described here.  I didn't think it was this widespread."
Salpy


I didn't know ANY intercommunion was happening at all.
Praise God that the process of reunification has already begun!

Glory to You, O Lord, glory to You
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2007, 09:36:06 AM »

Recently a Coptic Christian came to our (Antiochian) parish after having attended St. Vladimir's, and he was received by profession of faith in the Seven Councils. He is now an Antiochian priest in a NY parish.

Well, that's a first.  I don't know what to say about this.  Why didn't he go back to the Coptic Church?  Was he ethnically Coptic?

I'd like to know more about this one.  I've heard issues where some Coptic clergy feel "iffy" about Copts attending St. Vladimir's.  Could this be one of the reasons?

God bless.
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