Author Topic: Extraterrestrials  (Read 18239 times)

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Offline prodromas

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Extraterrestrials
« on: August 08, 2007, 11:50:51 PM »
I was reading that the Catholic church has a protocol for communicating to Extraterrestrials, it goes on to ask or find out whether they have souls or are currently living in a state of grace. Does the Orthodox church even attempt to touch on this subject or is it one of those mysteries?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2007, 12:59:50 AM »
I think Fr. Seraphim Rose addressed this subject in Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, attributing what we call ETs to the realm of demons.  I personally resonate with much of what he had to say about the connection between UFO sightings and the occult, drawing as he did from his knowledge of the occult and of the experiences of many monastics in their personal wars against demons.  However, I don't recognize Fr. Seraphim's writing on the subject of ETs as representative of any dogmatic Tradition of the Church.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2007, 08:48:32 AM »
Okay, I've heard enough. Y'all have left me with no choice. I must buy this book.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2007, 08:57:37 AM »
I was reading that the Catholic church has a protocol for communicating to Extraterrestrials, it goes on to ask or find out whether they have souls or are currently living in a state of grace.

Whew! At first I thought you said communing ET's...wouldn't surprise me.  ::)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2007, 09:10:17 AM »
This thread reminds me of a question I posed on the forum 15 months ago:
If there is extraterrestrial life with which Earth has never had contact, would it:

A) be subject to the conditions of the Fall, and

B) would it be redeemed through the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ on Earth?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2007, 09:12:38 AM »
^ C. S. Lewis tried to answer that in his Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength). He ended up with the best 200,000-word question I've ever read.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2007, 10:03:08 AM »
I would venture to say that whatever we know in theological anthropology is only that of humans and has nothing to do with ET's.  With that said, they may not after all be subject to the Fall or in need of the redemption of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

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Offline Aristibule

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2007, 11:12:28 AM »
I suppose that depends on how far the ramifications of the Fall reach - did it effect the whole Universe? If so, any ETs are likely to suffer as much as animal life on earth (and, it should be noted - there are *very* intelligent animals on earth.)
"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

Offline St. Christopher

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2007, 11:23:44 AM »
I amazed how much time people spend conjecturing about something we don't even know exists.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2007, 01:05:39 PM »
I suppose that depends on how far the ramifications of the Fall reach - did it effect the whole Universe? If so, any ETs are likely to suffer as much as animal life on earth (and, it should be noted - there are *very* intelligent animals on earth.)
Good point. The Fall certainly affected all life on Earth. Animals, it seems, are dependent on the actions of humans for their redemption, although they seem to have a part in it, as well. Look at the donkey, for example: after the donkey carried Jesus Christ into Jerusalem, donkeys were given a cross on their backs. I don't have a reference for this as I heard it from a friend who owns a donkey, but look at a donkey sometime if you get the chance: they have a dark line down their spine from the neck to almost where their tail begins and another from shoulder to shoulder.

Donkeys indeed are one of those very intelligent animals. This donkey in particular killed a sheep once accidentally, and actually feels remorse. In fact, after my friend buried the sheep, the donkey has regularly visited the grave and stands with his head low, as if he is apologizing. It's amazing to see.
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Offline Aristibule

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2007, 01:35:29 PM »
I amazed how much time people spend conjecturing about something we don't even know exists.

Very pragmatic - I get phone calls all the time from people conjecturing about things they don't even know exist: "I think someone is in my house!", "I thought I heard gunshots outside!", "I think I smell a bad smell coming from my neighbor's house and I haven't seen him for a week!" Maybe people should just mind their own business, and stick with what they know for sure?  8)

Quote
Donkeys indeed are one of those very intelligent animals. This donkey in particular killed a sheep once accidentally, and actually feels remorse. In fact, after my friend buried the sheep, the donkey has regularly visited the grave and stands with his head low, as if he is apologizing. It's amazing to see.

An amazing story, and not all that rare either. We have canine officers, for instance (with their own personalities, senses of humor, likes and dislikes, etc.) Some animals are often more intelligent than some humans. I wouldn't suppose just because an ET is more intelligent than most humans, that he would necessarily be a 'living soul', as is Man. I'm not even convinced that other species (like Neanderthal) would be considered Man (and, no one living is descended from 'Neanderthals' - though a few cryptozoologists think a few might be hiding out in Central Asia.) It does remind me of the ancient baptism of 'monsters' (severely deformed people) that was practiced even more than a millenium ago. The Church had the priests still baptize, but with the formula "..if thou art man...", ie, it was a conditional baptism. So, I don't see that the existence of little Greys would call for their baptism, no more than it would for domestic animals.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2007, 02:00:37 PM »
I'd be suprised if someone argued that "the fall" extended throughout the universe. It's hard enough to accept that it extended to innocent animals and children, but to say that some aliens in a distant galaxy is effected by some mistake on Earth...? I'm also suprised that people still find Fr. Seraphim's writings on this particular matter persuasive, as I think they are aging quite badly (ie. things have changed in the last 25+ years).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 02:06:58 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Aristibule

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2007, 04:21:58 PM »
I'd be suprised if someone argued that "the fall" extended throughout the universe. It's hard enough to accept that it extended to innocent animals and children,..

If you prick them, do not they bleed? If the Fall brought death, then it should extend as far as death does. I guess we'll just have to experiment first with the outer solar system... volunteers?
"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 05:20:31 PM »
The sin of a couple human lugs extending throughout the universe? That's one reason that I think finding aliens would be a mark against Christian theology. I just didn't want to get too confrontational. :)

Offline Jakub

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 10:18:20 PM »
Let's see...Art Bell and the Reptilians, Pahrump Nevada.

way too much agave...I think

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Offline GiC

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 11:09:30 PM »
I amazed how much time people spend conjecturing about something we don't even know exists.

But we talk about God all the time on this site, why do we have to stop now?...sorry, I couldn't resist, and knew Asteriktos was too tactful to make such a comment ;D

Seriously questions like this are important because they force us to put our theology in perspective, this question essential reduces the very concept of a literal fall to absurdity, clearly when we look at the big picture we must view the fall in an allegorical manner, as a story to explain an event with metaphysical, but not physical, significance. Of course, we must also view it in the historical context in which it was written.

As for the question of whether or not intelligent extraterrestrial exists, I find it unlikely that it only evolved in one planet in the entire universe, I have no doubt that life is rare, but I find the possibility of it being unique to be even more difficult than it being common. Now have they visited earth? Who knows, but if they managed that, I doubt they'd be bested by Uncle Sam.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2007, 11:22:35 PM »
If you prick them, do not they bleed? If the Fall brought death, then it should extend as far as death does. I guess we'll just have to experiment first with the outer solar system... volunteers?
How does one define the death caused by the Fall?  Is it the cessation of life that all creatures eventually experience, such that the Fall brought death to the entire universe?  Or is it merely the separation of the soul from the body that humans endure when their bodies cease to function, the return of the lifeless human body to the elements of the earth?  If the latter is true, can it not then be said that the curse of the Fall is that we humans should experience the same cessation of physical life that has been the bane of all other creatures, to include ETs, prior to the fall?  If so, how can we say that the Fall has such cosmic repercussions?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2007, 11:23:30 PM »
The sin of a couple human lugs extending throughout the universe? That's one reason that I think finding aliens would be a mark against Christian theology. I just didn't want to get too confrontational. :)
Maybe a mark against the theology of many Christians, but I think Christian theology as a whole is secure enough to withstand alien attacks.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2007, 09:34:23 AM »
I amazed how much time people spend conjecturing about something we don't even know exists.

Conjecturing about things that people have not known to exist has lead to advances in Science and medicine and more.  Sometimes it can help to think ahead for possible situations.  But then, I've been a Science Fiction reader for over 40 years. There's some very good thought on ethics and technology and other situations in SF.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 09:37:23 AM »
Meaning no disrespect, but the idea of sentient beings from other planets really being "demonic" is another idea that is shared by some of the fringier parts of Christianity like Constance Cumbey and Tex and Wanda Marrs.  On what is it based besides their own preconcieved ideas, maybe.

Ebor
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2007, 01:27:34 PM »
The fall has extended into all of the universe and all of creation. The fathers say. When we were created we had the ability to be immortal through communion with god. By breaking that communion We fell into the biological life. So, everything that is created by god is subject to death and non-existance apart from him. The entire universe is subject to death since it is part of creation.
  I don't know if you've payed any attention to global warming. The Orthodox church has. The earth is heading into non-existence through self destuction. Take a closer look at other stars that are in the universe. Many have fallen into non-existance. We are subject to that as well. All of the calamities in revelation have to do with global warming. The G-8 summit stated that if we don't do anything about global warming. In 100 years from now the earths temp. will rise 10 deg.f.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2007, 01:40:18 PM »
Come on, stop pulling our leg. You can't really believe that.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2007, 01:51:20 PM »
The fall has extended into all of the universe and all of creation. The fathers say. When we were created we had the ability to be immortal through communion with god. By breaking that communion We fell into the biological life. So, everything that is created by god is subject to death and non-existance apart from him. The entire universe is subject to death since it is part of creation.

Good point (because many of the Fathers do say this): it would be helpful for the others if you provided some quotes or references, though.

I don't know if you've payed any attention to global warming. The Orthodox church has. The earth is heading into non-existence through self destuction. Take a closer look at other stars that are in the universe. Many have fallen into non-existance. We are subject to that as well. All of the calamities in revelation have to do with global warming. The G-8 summit stated that if we don't do anything about global warming. In 100 years from now the earths temp. will rise 10 deg.f. 

Don't include this - the Global Warming issue is more political than scientific at this point.  We can barely predict the weather in 10 days - forget about 10* F temperature gains in 100 years.  I don't want to get into this here - its been debated in countless other threads and its a tangent.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2007, 03:28:13 PM »
By breaking that communion We fell into the biological life.

Well, then the fall was the greatest thing to ever happen to mankind, our biology and that of the world around us has been the source of an immense increase in human knowledge, especially in the last century, and this century promises to dwarf those accomplishments; it provides us with the secret of life and intelligence, an entire new outlook on computational systems.

But seriously, you do realize that 'falling into biology' is gnosticism, don't you? God is the creator of visible and invisible, the subordinating of the physical to the spiritual is the foundational idea of the various gnostic theologies.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2007, 09:24:08 PM »
Meaning no disrespect, but the idea of sentient beings from other planets really being "demonic" is another idea that is shared by some of the fringier parts of Christianity like Constance Cumbey and Tex and Wanda Marrs.  On what is it based besides their own preconcieved ideas, maybe.

Ebor
I make a personal distinction between the hypothesis of sentient beings in other sectors of the universe and what has passed for UFO sightings in the 20th Century.  I don't doubt at all the possibility that life as we know it exists on other planets in other star systems.  As humongous as our universe is, I think the chances are actually very good for extraterrestrial life somewhere; I'm just very skeptical that we've ever seen it.

Regarding UFO sightings, I've read multiple studies that show that the vast majority of those who claim to have seen UFOs were also active practitioners of the occult.  If one recognizes Fr. Seraphim Rose as an authority on the monastic experiences of the demonic, one can see that the descriptions of recent UFO sightings also parallel very closely the descriptions of demonic experiences that Fr. Seraphim has reported.  IMO, this connection between UFO sightings and the occult is potentially very convincing of the demonic nature of what many claim to be visions of ETs.

To summarize, I believe in the high probability of sentient life on other planets in the universe, but I also believe that the devil and his demons can and often have disguised themselves as ETs in order to deceive and devour many unwitting souls.  I don't want to squelch any desire for genuine scientific exploration, but I do want to counsel people to be spiritually discerning and wary.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2007, 09:38:02 PM »
Well, then the fall was the greatest thing to ever happen to mankind, our biology and that of the world around us has been the source of an immense increase in human knowledge, especially in the last century, and this century promises to dwarf those accomplishments; it provides us with the secret of life and intelligence, an entire new outlook on computational systems.

 
I agree. With enough time new discoveries about the biological life will be revealed. But I seriously doubt they will succeed in finding immortality. What worries me is the continued rebellion against god.  Science is busy trying to undo death and people continue to separate themselves from the living god. Just like satan did. In It's continued rebellion it hasn't found the fountain of youth. It really can't promise eternal life. It doesn't have a hold on it. Biology is a curse when communion with god has broken. It's a fail safe device. Separation from god means death. It's that simple.

Quote
But seriously, you do realize that 'falling into biology' is gnosticism, don't you? God is the creator of visible and invisible, the subordinating of the physical to the spiritual is the foundational idea of the various gnostic theologies.
 Your wrong it's not gnostic theology. We always were biological. Communion with god doesn't mean that we will loss our biological bodies. Communion means that they will be sustained forever.
  That is why it was added to our creed in the third century (creator of visible and invisible) Any created being including angles are subject to death when communion is broken. Anything that comes from null is threatened by it. The word created means we have a beginning in a period of time and an end as a threat. God is being. Christ promises that he will sustain us even though we are perishable.  

1 Corinthians 15 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2007, 09:54:54 PM »
I make a personal distinction between the hypothesis of sentient beings in other sectors of the universe and what has passed for UFO sightings in the 20th Century.  I don't doubt at all the possibility that life as we know it exists on other planets in other star systems.  As humongous as our universe is, I think the chances are actually very good for extraterrestrial life somewhere; I'm just very skeptical that we've ever seen it.

Regarding UFO sightings, I've read multiple studies that show that the vast majority of those who claim to have seen UFOs were also active practitioners of the occult.  If one recognizes Fr. Seraphim Rose as an authority on the monastic experiences of the demonic, one can see that the descriptions of recent UFO sightings also parallel very closely the descriptions of demonic experiences that Fr. Seraphim has reported.  IMO, this connection between UFO sightings and the occult is potentially very convincing of the demonic nature of what many claim to be visions of ETs.

Interesting discussion.
I guess I count in the weirdo group.  ::)
In my 46 years as an avid observer of celestial objects and phenomena, I have spent 1000s of nights outside looking up. I've been professionally trained as an observatory assistant and manufacture my own optics (on cloudy nights when I'm not here on OC.net). In all that I've only witnessed one event I would classify as a U.F.O. sighting - and that by definition as 'unidentified' (or identifiable by anyone in the astronomy field who I've told of this) 'flying' (it was in sky - flying or not) 'object' (it was a thing, not an atmospheric effect, migrating birds, cloud, weather balloon as far as anyone including me can tell).

Do I think it was demonic? No.
Was it extraterrestrial? Probably not. I'm certainly not convinced that it was, but I suspect other people might have jumped to the E.T. conclusion in this case.

And I surely agree that the Deceiver can use any tool to affect us, even this fear.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 09:55:43 PM by Αριστοκλής »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2007, 10:06:36 PM »
Interesting discussion.
I guess I count in the weirdo group.  ::)
In my 46 years as an avid observer of celestial objects and phenomena, I have spent 1000s of nights outside looking up. I've been professionally trained as an observatory assistant and manufacture my own optics (on cloudy nights when I'm not here on OC.net). In all that I've only witnessed one event I would classify as a U.F.O. sighting - and that by definition as 'unidentified' (or identifiable by anyone in the astronomy field who I've told of this) 'flying' (it was in sky - flying or not) 'object' (it was a thing, not an atmospheric effect, migrating birds, cloud, weather balloon as far as anyone including me can tell).

Do I think it was demonic? No.
Was it extraterrestrial? Probably not. I'm certainly not convinced that it was, but I suspect other people might have jumped to the E.T. conclusion in this case.

And I surely agree that the Deceiver can use any tool to affect us, even this fear.
I also recall reading that the vast majority of those who claimed to have seen UFOs did so after spending much less time, often not even 10%, observing the heavens than most of the professional astronomers who never reported seeing a UFO.  Again, the distinction is occult activity; most of those astronomers who never see a UFO never engage in occult practices, either.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2007, 10:09:53 PM »
Again, the distinction is occult activity; most of those astronomers who never see a UFO never engage in occult practices, either.
But how many who do see UFOs are engaged in occult practices?
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2007, 10:18:38 PM »
I also recall reading that the vast majority of those who claimed to have seen UFOs did so after spending much less time, often not even 10%, observing the heavens than most of the professional astronomers who never reported seeing a UFO.  Again, the distinction is occult activity; most of those astronomers who never see a UFO never engage in occult practices, either.
Although I do not doubt this, most professional astronomers see less of the sky than an average amateur observer or even average person. I was once knocked of my observing stool at a public star party when an astronomy grad student from Pitt asked me to locate Messier 51 (Whirlpool Galaxy) in the 16 inch scope I was using that night. She had never seen it, except in photos, nor knew how to find it without computer assistance. Those folks are a special breed most of whom are probably not going outside tonight to see the Persid meteor shower. (I'm heading out in an hour or so.)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2007, 10:25:04 PM »
But how many who do see UFOs are engaged in occult practices?
Have you read my Reply #24 above?
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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2007, 10:29:23 PM »
Have you read my Reply #24 above?
Yes.

Regarding UFO sightings, I've read multiple studies that show that the vast majority of those who claim to have seen UFOs were also active practitioners of the occult.
Which reports? And
how many who do see UFOs are engaged in occult practices?
You need to be much more specific if you want to convince me.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2007, 10:40:40 PM »
I think it was George Lucas who commented on how strange it was that while the number of cameras in society have increased greatly, the number of UFO sightings has fallen... I find that interesting as well...


Peter,

Quote
Regarding UFO sightings, I've read multiple studies that show that the vast majority of those who claim to have seen UFOs were also active practitioners of the occult.

Out of curiosity, do you remember any of the titles or names associated with these studies? I could see a disproportionate number of UFO sightings being made by people who were "practitioners in the occult,"* but I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of sightings are made by such people.


*For a random example, maybe .5% of people in the general public claim to have seen a UFO, while 2.5% of those involved in the occult claim to have seen a UFO.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 10:43:33 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline GiC

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2007, 10:54:47 PM »
I agree. With enough time new discoveries about the biological life will be revealed. But I seriously doubt they will succeed in finding immortality. What worries me is the continued rebellion against god.  Science is busy trying to undo death and people continue to separate themselves from the living god. Just like satan did. In It's continued rebellion it hasn't found the fountain of youth. It really can't promise eternal life. It doesn't have a hold on it. Biology is a curse when communion with god has broken. It's a fail safe device. Separation from god means death. It's that simple.

Who wants to live forever? Isn't this life enough? I have no doubt that in time science will overcome natural death, it's just a matter of comming to understand the biochemical machine so that it can be repaired; but I doubt any would want to live forever, we all grow tired of life. Science won't merely reverse the effects of some divine mistake, rather it will make us all Gods, it will give to every individual ultimate control over their life and their death. ;)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 10:56:14 PM by greekischristian »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2007, 10:56:09 PM »
Do the Borg get bored? ;)

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2007, 10:57:11 PM »
Do the Borg get bored? ;)

Perhaps that explains the near suicidal attacks we see time and time again by the collective ;)

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2007, 11:09:52 PM »
Which reports?
Maybe I expressed quite a bit too much unintentional certitude when I referred to my sources as "studies," and for this I apologize.  Virtually all that I've read is really more the substance of anecdotal statements (such as the following: www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030104&Category=NEWS10&ArtNo=101040052&Ref=AR) that should not be accepted as anything legitimately scientific.  Yes, one of the sources I've read on this, in addition to Fr. Seraphim Rose, is the somewhat Fundamentalist writer and speaker Chuck Colson.  I'm not totally convinced of the truth of everything either Fr. Seraphim or Mr. Colson has to say, but neither do I totally reject everything that comes from either source.  I do see both expressing insights that challenge me to understand my faith at a deeper level.

Quote
AndYou need to be much more specific if you want to convince me.
Not that I'm trying to convince you of anything except the general need for wariness of the devil's deceptive tricks; I'm not even as convinced of what I've presented as I may have inadvertently misled people to believe.
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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2007, 11:12:14 PM »
Who wants to live forever? Isn't this life enough? I have no doubt that in time science will overcome natural death, it's just a matter of comming to understand the biochemical machine so that it can be repaired; but I doubt any would want to live forever, we all grow tired of life.
I don't know about you, but I certainly do want to live forever. I also want all of the people in my life to also live forever. Ofcourse conditions could be better. A loss of life is the worst thing. That is what Christ came to save us from. Non-existance

Quote
Science won't merely reverse the effects of some divine mistake, rather it will make us all Gods, it will give to every individual ultimate control over their life and their death. ;)

Your not reading what I stated. The reason for death is prideful rebellion. What science offers is a hope to be seperated from God without the affects of that seperation.


Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2007, 11:23:20 PM »
Peter

Quote
such as the following: www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030104&Category=NEWS10&ArtNo=101040052&Ref=AR

While the degrees of Hugh Ross are indeed legit, I'm not sure that I'd want to rely too heavily on his commentary on anything in the scientific realm, based on what I've read of his literature...


GIC,

But, if we did reach a state of development comparable to the Borg, couldn't we control (or even perhaps turn off) that which leads us to have feelings like "hey, I'm bored!"?  You're really getting me excited about this whole cyborg future for humanity! ;D

« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 11:48:08 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline GiC

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2007, 11:37:36 PM »
GIC,

But, if we did reach a state of development comparable to the Borg, couldn't we control (or even perhaps turn off) that which leads us to have feelings like "hey, I'm bored!"?  You're really getting me excited about this whole cyborg future for humanity! ;D

Good point, perhaps they truly are the apex of perfection. ;)

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2007, 04:07:52 AM »
Meaning no disrespect, but the idea of sentient beings from other planets really being "demonic" is another idea that is shared by some of the fringier parts of Christianity like Constance Cumbey and Tex and Wanda Marrs.  On what is it based besides their own preconcieved ideas, maybe.

Ebor


Actually there good reason to conclude this.  I will have to refer you to the famous Christian apologest Astrophysicist Hugh Ross


http://www.geocities.com/darrickdean/ufos.html


take a look at

"Distinguishing Characteristics of RUFOs" elaborated in the article


1) RUFOs favor certain times and locals
2) RUFOs keep pace with modern technology
3) RUFOs seem to have always been around.
4) RUFOs match the scientific literacy of their witnesses.
5) RUFOs make repeat visits to certain witnesses and sites.
 6) RUFOs visit select few
7) RUFOs arouse disturbing emotions
8) RUFOs cause bodily or psychological harm.
9) RUFOs deceive their human contacts.


Evidence that RUFOs are real but non-physical:

1) RUFOs leave no physical artifacts, even after crashing.
2) They generate no sonic booms when they break the sound barrier, nor do they show any evidence of meeting with air resistance.
3) They may be seen but not photographed, or they may be photographed (though never with high resolution) but not seen. In fact, the resolution of a UFO image may change from one moment to the next.
4) RUFOs may be detected by radar but not seen, or they may be seen but not detected by radar.
5) They make impossibly sharp turns, sudden stops, and impossibly rapid accelerations to speeds approaching fifteen thousand miles per hour.
6) RUFOs hover above the ground or harm buildings and trees without movement of air – no downward rush or other movement counter to ambient air currents.
7) They change momentum without yielding an opposite change of momentum in matter or in an energy field either coupled to the object or in the vicinity of the object.
8) They change shape, size, and color at random.
9) RUFOs suddenly disappear and reappear, or they disintegrate and reintegrate.
10) They send no detectable electromagnetic signals.
11) They emit light that casts no shadows. They project light beams of finite length or emit some light that twinkles and other light that does not. They change the apparent color of people, objects, or vehicles they spotlight.
12 They sometimes remain indistinguishable in shape despite close observation.
13) RUFOs consistently succeeded in evasive action, sometimes vanishing instantly or at other times seeming to enter the ground without leaving a trace.
14) They melt asphalt and metal objects, and burn grass and leaves, without fire or flame.
15) They physically injure and even kill human observers apart from any identifiable physical agents.


and read some of the other information presented like our knowledge of black holes

and you might want to look at some other article like


"Aliens From Another World? Getting Here From There"


http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/2001issue06/index.shtml#aliens_from_another_world
 




Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2007, 02:13:37 PM »
I think that young earth creationist lecturers/debaters share the RUFO's nine "distinguishing characteristics". Of course, such creationists can usually be identified, and aren't flying, but the rest of the criteria all seem to match up.  ;)

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2007, 07:25:13 PM »

1) RUFOs favor certain times and locals
2) RUFOs keep pace with modern technology
3) RUFOs seem to have always been around.
4) RUFOs match the scientific literacy of their witnesses.
5) RUFOs make repeat visits to certain witnesses and sites.
 6) RUFOs visit select few
7) RUFOs arouse disturbing emotions
Cool RUFOs cause bodily or psychological harm.
9) RUFOs deceive their human contacts.


Change RUFO's to Drug dealers! there to vauge
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2007, 08:19:43 PM »

Actually there good reason to conclude this.  I will have to refer you to the famous Christian apologest Astrophysicist Hugh Ross

Thank you for the links.  I'll look them over when I can.  However, regarding the distance factor, I assure you that with a hobby of astronomy and science in general along with reading SF, I *know* that, to quote the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"   ;)

"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."  - Douglas Adams

I will also submit that we don't know all there is about physics and the universe.  So without some good support to automatically state that any kind of alien/UFO is "demonic" is imho rash and based on ones own preconcieved notions, meaning no disrespect.

RUFO is "Reported Unidentified Flying Object"?

Ebor
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2007, 08:33:32 PM »
Ebor,

A definition from the one site: "Once we eliminate explained and explainable UFOs, the remaining reports are referred to as 'residual UFOs' or simply RUFOs."

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2007, 08:36:42 PM »
So without some good support to automatically state that any kind of alien/UFO is "demonic" is imho rash and based on ones own preconcieved notions, meaning no disrespect.
I agree, however, there is no "logical" way to decide which, if any, UFO's are demonic, just as there is no "logical" way to decide who is mentally ill or who is demonically possessed or affected. Demonic possession is not a psychiatric diagnosis, so the preconceived ideas of psychiatry preclude it from being a possibility.

Rather than "preconceived ideas", perhaps a better term might be "point of reference" or "view point".
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2007, 09:45:41 PM »
I agree, however, there is no "logical" way to decide which, if any, UFO's are demonic, just as there is no "logical" way to decide who is mentally ill or who is demonically possessed or affected. Demonic possession is not a psychiatric diagnosis, so the preconceived ideas of psychiatry preclude it from being a possibility.

Rather than "preconceived ideas", perhaps a better term might be "point of reference" or "view point".

I'm not sure.  I shall think about the terms.  However, these all have a sense of subjectivity as opposed to objective information, I think.  One's "point of reference"/"view point" can sometimes have a skewed picture, as it were, that is not in line with reality.

I hope you're having a good time on holiday.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2007, 09:46:15 PM »
Ebor,

A definition from the one site: "Once we eliminate explained and explainable UFOs, the remaining reports are referred to as 'residual UFOs' or simply RUFOs."

Ah. Thank you very much for the information. 

Ebor
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2007, 09:55:01 PM »
However, these all have a sense of subjectivity as opposed to objective information, I think.  One's "point of reference"/"view point" can sometimes have a skewed picture, as it were, that is not in line with reality.
Absolutely. What I am saying is that if we wish to be perfectly objective, then we would have to first prove or disprove the existence of the demonic. Whether some extraterrestrials are demonic is a matter of theology and faith. In matters of faith, objectivity is impossible, since our understanding and worldview are subject to our beliefs.

I hope you're having a good time on holiday.
I took a bad fall yesterday, so I'm resting this morning, and I'm booked for a massage in an hour. I'll hopefully get back up the slopes this afternoon.
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Offline Aristibule

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2007, 10:00:26 PM »
Yeah, just wait til they find out who is responsible for all the entropy in the Universe.  Now - explain 'Original Sin' to an alien ...  ;D
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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2007, 10:02:27 PM »
I saw a bumper sticker once that said "Aliens is people too, Clyde" when I was in L.A. one summer.  The guy had green spikey hair, and a silver spikey face.  Haven't been back since.

I like what Billy Graham said when asked.

" I don't worry about aliens.  They probably have their own religion."
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2007, 10:04:17 PM »
Absolutely. What I am saying is that if we wish to be perfectly objective, then we would have to first prove or disprove the existence of the demonic. Whether some extraterrestrials are demonic is a matter of theology and faith. In matters of faith, objectivity is impossible, since our understanding and worldview are subject to our beliefs.

Ah, I percieve what you mean.  Well, then I think I could say that I am "agnostic" on the matter of UFOs, alien visitors and life on other planets, since we do not have solid data/information.

Quote
I took a bad fall yesterday, so I'm resting this morning, and I'm booked for a massage in an hour. I'll hopefully get back up the slopes this afternoon.

OW!  I hope that you will be worked back into shape and have a fine time from now on.  Don't get broken.  ;)

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2007, 10:09:59 PM »
For some consideration:  James Blish wrote "A Case of Conscience" about a Jesuit/scientist on another planet with sentients with no religion, sense of sin or of God.

Ebor
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2007, 10:19:04 PM »
I took a bad fall yesterday, so I'm resting this morning, and I'm booked for a massage in an hour. I'll hopefully get back up the slopes this afternoon.

Really sorry to learn this, ozgeorge, especially with the fast keeping liquid muscle relaxers off the menu.  :'(
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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2007, 10:22:43 PM »
I didn;t know canon law prevented Icy Hot durring a fast.  Ah, crud, am I in trouble.
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2007, 10:23:56 PM »
For some consideration:  James Blish wrote "A Case of Conscience" about a Jesuit/scientist on another planet with sentients with no religion, sense of sin or of God.

Ebor

Funnily enough Ebor this is were I actually had the question originate from after I read a synopsis of that book
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2007, 10:25:29 PM »
I didn;t know canon law prevented Icy Hot durring a fast.  Ah, crud, am I in trouble.

I guess if you drink the stuff!
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2007, 10:28:07 PM »
Oh...nevermind. ;D ;D
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2007, 10:30:09 PM »
Funnily enough Ebor this is were I actually had the question originate from after I read a synopsis of that book

ah.  :) There are a few other SF books that look at the question.  "The Sparrow" is one.  I'll have to try and recall others.  And there is C. S. Lewis' "Space Trilogy": Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength

Ebor
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Offline GiC

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2007, 10:53:10 PM »
Yeah, just wait til they find out who is responsible for all the entropy in the Universe.  Now - explain 'Original Sin' to an alien ...  ;D

I can see it now:

Fundamentalist: You know, we are special, made in the image of God, unlike you.

Alien: Oh?

Fundamentalist: Yes, and our fall from grace is the source of pain and suffering in the universe.

Alien: Hmmm, so it's all your fault?

Fundamentalist: Yep, but God also became incarnate in our Image to save all the universe.

Alien: Ok, but there is still pain and suffering?

Fundamentalist: Of course, we all must suffer for the sins of one man. But at least we will be saved when we die.

Alien: So it's not really your fault, it's the fault of this particular human?

Fundamentalist: Well, initially, yes, but ultimately we are all culpable for his sin.

Alien: Are you?

Fundamentalist: Of course, it's in the Bible, do you want a copy?

Alien: No thanks, but thank you for the information...

<<Alien Warships Approach>>
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 10:54:03 PM by greekischristian »

Offline prodromas

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2007, 11:36:18 PM »
I can see it now:

Fundamentalist: You know, we are special, made in the image of God, unlike you.

Alien: Oh?

Fundamentalist: Yes, and our fall from grace is the source of pain and suffering in the universe.

Alien: Hmmm, so it's all your fault?

Fundamentalist: Yep, but God also became incarnate in our Image to save all the universe.

Alien: Ok, but there is still pain and suffering?

Fundamentalist: Of course, we all must suffer for the sins of one man. But at least we will be saved when we die.

Alien: So it's not really your fault, it's the fault of this particular human?

Fundamentalist: Well, initially, yes, but ultimately we are all culpable for his sin.

Alien: Are you?

Fundamentalist: Of course, it's in the Bible, do you want a copy?

Alien: No thanks, but thank you for the information...

<<Alien Warships Approach>>

Funniest thing ever GiC was laughing so hard!!!
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2018, 07:46:18 PM »
I don't think any intelligent life exists outside earth. If anything, I think it'll be microorganisms.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 07:46:45 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extraterrestrials
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2018, 08:47:15 PM »
I don't think any intelligent life exists outside earth. If anything, I think it'll be microorganisms.

Lately the push is on multidimensional beings, and since they are from earth (dimension xyz not ours) its not "technically" aliens.
But if people believe in infinite dimensions then they must also believe in flat earth, talking dogs, etc. You cant have infinite without the absurdity tbat goes along with what that entails.
Even microorganisms have to make the jump from nothingness to something (random atoms just forming and creating life) which as far as i know isnt possible.

Fr, Seraphim rose is probably the most correct in his book "orthodoxy and the religion of the future" where he says demons are aliens, and since modern man is more atheist than Christian he experiences the demons as an alien not a demon.