Liturgical Greek In Latin Characters (interlinear)

[Seekingthetruth]

Does anyone know of a website or source that has Liturgical Greek translated or broken down into latin characters. For example.  Κύριε ἐλέησον=Kyrie eleison=Kee'ree-ay Ay-lay'ee-son. I'm especially looking for the text of The Divine Liturgy in this format, or a format that is similar. Maybe some of you who are literate in Greek can help me out.

Thanks!

[Anastasios]

Just take the one hour to four hours it would take to learn the Greek alphabet and learn it. It will make you happy you did

[arimethea]

Just make sure you learn from a modern Greek pronunciation and not that stupid German way.

[Αριστοκλής]

Just make sure you learn from a modern Greek pronunciation and not that stupid German way.

Amen!

(Although on my Classical Greek forums those Erasmusians are finally admitting, grudgingly, that they know their way is wrong, but it's easier for them to communicate. My question then is, "With whom"?)

[Seekingthetruth]

Just take the one hour to four hours it would take to learn the Greek alphabet and learn it. It will make you happy you did

I actually plan on learning Greek, but I'm looking for a quick reference so I can better understand parts of the liturgy and sing the Greek parts, as the liturgy at the parish I am attending conducts service in about 40% Greek and 60% English. I love ancient languages, so Greek defiantly is something I want to learn, along with Hebrew and Aramaic.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I actually plan on learning Greek, but I'm looking for a quick reference so I can better understand parts of the liturgy and sing the Greek parts, as the liturgy at the parish I am attending conducts service in about 40% Greek and 60% English. I love ancient languages, so Greek defiantly is something I want to learn, along with Hebrew and Aramaic.

Here's a quick reference for the letters:
symbol, name, English equivalent
α alpha a
β beta b
γ gamma g
δ delta d
ε epsilon e
ζ zeta z
η eta e
θ theta th
ι iota i
κ kappa k
λ lambda l
μ mu m
ν nu n
ξ xi x
ο omicron o
π pi p
ρ rho r
ς sigma (final) s
σ sigma (initial and middle) s
τ tau t
υ upsilon u
φ phi f
χ chi ch
ψ psi ps
ω omega o

[serb1389]

A lot of liturgy books come with the english phonetics already printed. 

I know Holy Cross puts out a liturgy book that has everything in english phonetics...

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for though...

There are other Liturgy books that have even more than the phonetics, like little stress marks, and etc. 

What exactly are you looking for? 

[Seekingthetruth]

A lot of liturgy books come with the english phonetics already printed. 

I know Holy Cross puts out a liturgy book that has everything in english phonetics...

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for though...

There are other Liturgy books that have even more than the phonetics, like little stress marks, and etc. 

What exactly are you looking for? 

That book by Holy Cross would be wonderful! Would I find it here? http://store.holycrossbookstore.com/lisebo.html

[serb1389]

Yup...if you want to see a copy go to your nearest Greek church, they probobly have a copy. 

I hope it works out for you! 

Its a good book to have even if it doesn't....

You know...now that I think about it I might be wrong...I tend to get confused sometimes. 

Please check out the book before you buy it.  I would hate for you to spend your money on my mistake....sorry if I steered you wrong. 

[EofK]

http://www.teknia.com/  This is the textbook I used in my Greek classes in college.  The website has a free download with flashcards and pronunciation tips (with, I believe, .wav files so you can hear the vocabulary).  The textbook is a little pricey, but you can usually find one in used bookstores, especially Christian used bookstores.  Don't let the book intimidate you; I took a formal Greek class, but I also taught myself part of the textbook when I took a year away from Greek.  If you're serious about learning the language, it's best to get a tutor or take a class.  I'm no expert in the language, by any means, but I loved learning the basics.  Wish I had also taken a Modern Greek class to see the progression from 1st century to today. 

http://greek-language.com/alphabet/  This page has the alphabet, transliteration, and a pronunciation guide.

[FrChris]

As I had feared, the teknia site has this as a "pronunciation guide":

1. A diphthong consists of two vowels that produce but one sound. The second vowel is always an i or an u. They are pronounced as follows. [The diphthong wu is used in Classical Greek, but occurs in the New Testament only in the name MwushV where there is always a diaeresis indicating that it is not a diphthong.]

ai as in aisle  ai[rw 
ei as in eight  eij 
oi as in oil  oijkiva 
au as in sauerkraut  aujtovV 
ou as in soup  oujdev 
ui as in suite  uiJovV 
eu, hu as in feud  eujquvV or hu[xanen. Some suggest that the pronunciation of hu is the same as saying "hey you" if you run the words together. 

My suggestion: seek out a Greek for pronunciation advice!

I remember once at Holy Cross, we had a bunch of visitors on campus who were attending a conference. They tried to recite the Greek portions of Vespers in their "Erasmian" Greek pronunciation. I knew they we really trying to be nice, but their attempts were actually painful to the ears, and eventually the visitors also were highly embarassed when they found out that what they had spent their life learning was incorrect.

[Αριστοκλής]

As I had feared, the teknia site has this as a "pronunciation guide":

My suggestion: seek out a Greek for pronunciation advice!

I remember once at Holy Cross, we had a bunch of visitors on campus who were attending a conference. They tried to recite the Greek portions of Vespers in their "Erasmian" Greek pronunciation. I knew they we really trying to be nice, but their attempts were actually painful to the ears, and eventually the visitors also were highly embarassed when they found out that what they had spent their life learning was incorrect.

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek. The site owner is a translator on the OSB-OT project, makes one wonder.

[EofK]

As I had feared, the teknia site has this as a "pronunciation guide":

My suggestion: seek out a Greek for pronunciation advice!

Very true, it isn't great for pronunciation.  But then, when I was learning it we didn't do any speaking or listening exercises, so pronunciation wasn't a concern to me.  Definitely, track down a Greek for pronunciation.

[Fr. George]

Oh, Lord have mercy.  The pronunciation guide that FrChris posted (which he was disgusted with).... ewwwwwww.

Ai - short e (like eh)
Ei, Oi - long e (like tree)
ou - just like it looks (through, or threw)

Eu - Either "ef" or "ev", depending on context.
Au - Either "af" (like the word off) or "av", depending on context.

Remember, an "a" is never pronounced like "tray", but rather as a shortened version of the famous Boston "a" - (you know, Park the Car in Harvard Yard - "ah" sound).

{I've now flown into "people can't pronounce Greek" anger mode, which inevitably follows every encounter with Erasmus' monstrosity.}

[Apostolos]

Oh, Lord have mercy.  The pronunciation guide that FrChris posted (which he was disgusted with).... ewwwwwww.

Ai - short e (like eh)
Ei, Oi - long e (like tree)
ou - just like it looks (through, or threw)

Eu - Either "ef" or "ev", depending on context*
Au - Either "af" (like the word off) or "av", depending on context.*

Remember, an "a" is never pronounced like "tray", but rather as a shortened version of the famous Boston "a" - (you know, Park the Car in Harvard Yard - "ah" sound).

{I've now flown into "people can't pronounce Greek" anger mode, which inevitably follows every encounter with Erasmus' monstrosity.}

*Eu, Au-->ef, af before a consonant, ev, av before a vowel
examples:
Εύανδρος-->Evandros=Good, noble man.
Ευφημισμός-->Ef-fimismos=Euphemism

[SebastianCarnazzo]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

[podkarpatska]

I learned to chant as a boy in Slavonic using a similar Latin letter Liturgicon, epistle book and other books. In Galicia and Austria Hungary, the written word was transliterated to Latin letters in lieu of Cyrillic and only the clergy could read the Cyrillac by 1800 or so.   It was only in the late 1800s that intellectuals revived the written Cyrillic .

[ialmisry]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

Identical to modern? Not quite. In fact, not close.

[Jonathan Gress]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

[LBK]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate. 

[Jonathan Gress]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate.  

Actually the current consensus on Erasmus' reconstruction is that it was largely correct.

EDIT: Erasmian pronunciation is largely correct for the classical period, but we're talking about the Koine period, so I take that back.

[Αριστοκλής]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate.  

Actually the current consensus on Erasmus' reconstruction is that it was largely correct.

EDIT: Erasmian pronunciation is largely correct for the classical period, but we're talking about the Koine period, so I take that back.

But defining the Koine as beginning in 4 century B.C. (which is correct) makes that determination arguable. Any way, I am not convinced that what is taught as Erasmus's scheme today is what he devised.

[ialmisry]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate.  

Actually the current consensus on Erasmus' reconstruction is that it was largely correct.

EDIT: Erasmian pronunciation is largely correct for the classical period, but we're talking about the Koine period, so I take that back.

But defining the Koine as beginning in 4 century B.C. (which is correct) makes that determination arguable. Any way, I am not convinced that what is taught as Erasmus's scheme today is what he devised.

itself has variations: for some examples-
http://www.biblicalgreek.org/links/erasmian.php

[Cyrillic]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

+1

The pronounciation would depend on the region and the social class of the speaker as well.

In the early Imperial period Greek became diglossic. There was the Atticising Greek of the sophists and the upper class, in which all modern words were anathema. They tried to emulate the language of 5th-century Athens. The lower classes spoke Koine. Most of the Church Fathers were atticising, but not too strict about it. The NT and the Septuagint is written in (sometimes very bad) Koine.

Atticisers were probably more likely to stick to the more ancient pronounciation. Even when Koine was widely spoken.

But defining the Koine as beginning in 4 century B.C. (which is correct) makes that determination arguable. Any way, I am not convinced that what is taught as Erasmus's scheme today is what he devised.

The 3rd century would be a more likely starting point. Demosthenes and Menander still lived at the end of the 4th century BC and the Greek bureaucracy wasn't fully in place in the East at that point.

[ialmisry]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

+1

The pronounciation would depend on the region and the social class of the speaker as well.

In the early Imperial period Greek became diglossic. There was the Atticising Greek of the sophists and the upper class, in which all modern words were anathema. They tried to emulate the language of 5th-century Athens. The lower classes spoke Koine. Most of the Church Fathers were atticising, but not too strict about it. The NT and the Septuagint is in (sometimes very bad) Koine.

Atticisers were probably more likely to stick to the more ancient pronounciation.

It seems that after the end of the fourth century, the Atticising pronunciation had collapsed and fallen out of use.  This is shown, for instance, in the use of Greek letters/linguistics to devise/transcribe other languages before (e.g. Syriac, Coptic, Armenian) and after (e.g. Slavonic) that date.

[Αριστοκλής]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate.  

Actually the current consensus on Erasmus' reconstruction is that it was largely correct.

EDIT: Erasmian pronunciation is largely correct for the classical period, but we're talking about the Koine period, so I take that back.

But defining the Koine as beginning in 4 century B.C. (which is correct) makes that determination arguable. Any way, I am not convinced that what is taught as Erasmus's scheme today is what he devised.

itself has variations: for some examples-
http://www.biblicalgreek.org/links/erasmian.php

Indeed. I have listened to so many variations over the years. Some reconstructions are surprisingly good. However, for archaic dialects the issue has no answer. Not even the linguists have clue as to the tonal/pitch aspects of the language then.

[Cyrillic]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

+1

The pronounciation would depend on the region and the social class of the speaker as well.

In the early Imperial period Greek became diglossic. There was the Atticising Greek of the sophists and the upper class, in which all modern words were anathema. They tried to emulate the language of 5th-century Athens. The lower classes spoke Koine. Most of the Church Fathers were atticising, but not too strict about it. The NT and the Septuagint is in (sometimes very bad) Koine.

Atticisers were probably more likely to stick to the more ancient pronounciation.

It seems that after the end of the fourth century, the Atticising pronunciation had collapsed and fallen out of use.  This is shown, for instance, in the use of Greek letters/linguistics to devise/transcribe other languages before (e.g. Syriac, Coptic, Armenian) and after (e.g. Slavonic) that date.

That could be. Although Sts. Basil and Gregory of Nazianzen would probably have been taught the Attic pronounciation by Prohaeresius and St. John Chrysostom would have been taught to Atticise by Libanius.

[Cyrillic]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

[ialmisry]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

+1

The pronounciation would depend on the region and the social class of the speaker as well.

In the early Imperial period Greek became diglossic. There was the Atticising Greek of the sophists and the upper class, in which all modern words were anathema. They tried to emulate the language of 5th-century Athens. The lower classes spoke Koine. Most of the Church Fathers were atticising, but not too strict about it. The NT and the Septuagint is in (sometimes very bad) Koine.

Atticisers were probably more likely to stick to the more ancient pronounciation.

It seems that after the end of the fourth century, the Atticising pronunciation had collapsed and fallen out of use.  This is shown, for instance, in the use of Greek letters/linguistics to devise/transcribe other languages before (e.g. Syriac, Coptic, Armenian) and after (e.g. Slavonic) that date.

That could be. Although Sts. Basil and Gregory of Nazianzen would probably have been taught the Attic pronounciation by Prohaeresius and St. John Chrysostom would have been taught to Atticise by Libanius.

Definitely.

Allen goes into when the Greek grammarians had forgotten the Attic pronunciation, as they had to start inventing explanations of the classic description of sounds.

[ialmisry]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

True enough, but there's no way Erasmian pronunciation is remotely accurate.  

Actually the current consensus on Erasmus' reconstruction is that it was largely correct.

EDIT: Erasmian pronunciation is largely correct for the classical period, but we're talking about the Koine period, so I take that back.

But defining the Koine as beginning in 4 century B.C. (which is correct) makes that determination arguable. Any way, I am not convinced that what is taught as Erasmus's scheme today is what he devised.

itself has variations: for some examples-
http://www.biblicalgreek.org/links/erasmian.php

Indeed. I have listened to so many variations over the years. Some reconstructions are surprisingly good. However, for archaic dialects the issue has no answer. Not even the linguists have clue as to the tonal/pitch aspects of the language then.

somewhere I have a tome that recently tries to reconstruct that aspect, Allen having given up on that.

[Αριστοκλής]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

Nor "Bi Bi" either.

[Cyrillic]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

Nor "Bi Bi" either.

That's why it's "Beh, beh" according to the Erasmian pronounciation.

[Αριστοκλής]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

Nor "Bi Bi" either.

That's why it's "Beh, beh" according to the Erasmian pronounciation.

Not in any Erasmusian I've ever heard. You're right. I forgot.

Best piece I've seen in years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LAxzL1BE3Go


{Edit to admit (you're kidding!) error.}

[Jonathan Gress]

Let's not confuse all the issues. Classical Greek pronunciation is one thing, 1st century Koine a second, and modern Greek a third. The Erasmian system is still largely accurate for the Classical. The Koine retains some aspects of the classical pronunciation, e.g. the vowel represented by eta had not yet merged with the vowel represented by iota. Other modern features, however, had begun to appear, e.g. the former diphthongs "au" and "eu" had begun to be pronounced "av" and "ev", as in modern Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology#Popular_pronunciation.2C_1st_century_.CE.92C_.E2.80.93_2nd_century_AD

[Αριστοκλής]

Didn't check out the professor Zachariou's youtube presentation?

[SebastianCarnazzo]

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this thread but I highly recommend purchasing the MP4 of Randal Buth's Living Koine Greek and going through the alphabet lists.  It takes about one hour to learn the alphabet in a very natural way.  After that reading is easy.  And no, he doesn't use Erasmian but rather 1st century, which is almost identical to modern.  If anyone is interested in hearing it spoken you can see me speaking with my students in this pronunciation at academyofclassicallanguages.com

1st century Greek was NOT pronounced like modern Greek, although it was becoming more like modern Greek and less like Classical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

Some people like to think that the pronunciation of Greek hasn't changed over the past 2000 years. This is not true.

Hello all.  I am new here and glad to make your acquaintance.  I guess I am implied to be one of "those" people in the above response.  First of all, I am not.  But I am glad to see that everyone is very excited about this discussion of pronunciation.  Now regarding the initial response to my statement using the words "almost identical" which has begun quite a debate and now the posting of the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology
Let me begin by saying that I am not just shooting from the hip here.  If you look at that link you will see that the bibliographic references are Allen, Buth, Horrocks, and Lejeune.  With regard to the question of pronunciation in the Koine period, all of these guys (with the exception of Lejeune who published earlier) are relying on the work of Francis Gignac, and primarily his two volume work, A Grammar of the Greek Papyri,  http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Greek-Papyri-Byzantine-Periods/dp/B0006CVTGQ/ref=sr_sp-btf_title_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389976498&sr=1-4
I am blessed to have been one his students.  Gignac was my Greek professor during my doctoral work.  One of my more enjoyable classes with him, was a course titled the History of the Greek Language, where I, along with the other students had to write a grammar of the Greek language, from Mycenaean to Modern.  He was also one of my dissertation readers.  So when I say "almost identical" I am speaking of the big picture of Greek pronunciation, not a debate about Modern American Alabamian pronunciation of Erasmian versus Yaya.  What I meant, therefore, was that if you listen to 1st century pronunciation it is much closer to modern pronunciation than the way Erasmian is used today.  All I wanted to do was in short make sure that anyone who read my post wouldn't assume that I was talking about speaking in Koine in Erasmian.  Anyway, glad to read all your comments and I look forward to discussing more about these things in the future.  In the end, though I believe for a number of reasons that modern is the best pronunciation to use for speaking Koine Greek, what is important is that, whatever pronunciation system you are wedded to, that you speak it and not just translate.

[Jonathan Gress]

I think one of the major changes in the pronunciation of Greek was the shift from a system of distinctive syllable quantity (heavy and light syllables), with a mostly independent pitch accent system and no contrastive stress, to the modern system of contrastive stress and no distinctive syllable quantity or pitch accent. Given that this shift was already well under way in the Roman period, I can certainly see the advantages of using the modern pronunciation, rather than the Erasmian, if you are forced to choose between the two.

The disadvantage of the modern is that, for example, you fail to render all sorts of vowel contrasts that still existed in Koine of the time, e.g. the contrasting vowels represented by iota, eta and ypsilon, which are all pronounced "ee" in modern Greek but were still distinct in Koine.

[Αριστοκλής]

I think one of the major changes in the pronunciation of Greek was the shift from a system of distinctive syllable quantity (heavy and light syllables), with a mostly independent pitch accent system and no contrastive stress, to the modern system of contrastive stress and no distinctive syllable quantity or pitch accent. Given that this shift was already well under way in the Roman period, I can certainly see the advantages of using the modern pronunciation, rather than the Erasmian, if you are forced to choose between the two.

The disadvantage of the modern is that, for example, you fail to render all sorts of vowel contrasts that still existed in Koine of the time, e.g. the contrasting vowels represented by iota, eta and ypsilon, which are all pronounced in modern Greek but were still distinct in Koine.

Granted. And for which reason I use BOTH, consecutively, when working with texts of the period. It IS a pain sometimes but after a while one (at least tHIS one, me) gravitates to modern - to a point.


And yes, SebastianCarnazzo, we're glad you are here. I'll spend more time on your subject directly a little later when I have a good block of time to do so.

[Cyrillic]

I think one of the major changes in the pronunciation of Greek was the shift from a system of distinctive syllable quantity (heavy and light syllables), with a mostly independent pitch accent system and no contrastive stress, to the modern system of contrastive stress and no distinctive syllable quantity or pitch accent. Given that this shift was already well under way in the Roman period, I can certainly see the advantages of using the modern pronunciation, rather than the Erasmian, if you are forced to choose between the two.

The disadvantage of the modern is that, for example, you fail to render all sorts of vowel contrasts that still existed in Koine of the time, e.g. the contrasting vowels represented by iota, eta and ypsilon, which are all pronounced in modern Greek but were still distinct in Koine.

Granted. And for which reason I use BOTH, consecutively, when working with texts of the period. It IS a pain sometimes but after a while one (at least tHIS one, me) gravitates to modern - to a point.

I find the modern pronounciation difficult to use for Classical/Koine texts, especially with the ὑμεῖς/ἡμεῖς.

[Αριστοκλής]

I think one of the major changes in the pronunciation of Greek was the shift from a system of distinctive syllable quantity (heavy and light syllables), with a mostly independent pitch accent system and no contrastive stress, to the modern system of contrastive stress and no distinctive syllable quantity or pitch accent. Given that this shift was already well under way in the Roman period, I can certainly see the advantages of using the modern pronunciation, rather than the Erasmian, if you are forced to choose between the two.

The disadvantage of the modern is that, for example, you fail to render all sorts of vowel contrasts that still existed in Koine of the time, e.g. the contrasting vowels represented by iota, eta and ypsilon, which are all pronounced in modern Greek but were still distinct in Koine.

Granted. And for which reason I use BOTH, consecutively, when working with texts of the period. It IS a pain sometimes but after a while one (at least tHIS one, me) gravitates to modern - to a point.

I find the modern pronounciation difficult to use for Classical/Koine texts, especially with the ὑμεῖς/ἡμεῖς.

If you had grown up hearing the Divine Liturgy in Greek this would have presented no problem.   

Monotonic Greek distorts too much. The accentuation here would render (properly) a more Erasmusian sound there.

[Romaios]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

Those darn sheep oughta catch up on their pronunciation! I'm sure there must be some evolved species somewhere in Greece that can properly articulate vita, just as there are hounds that bark af, af (αὗ, αὗ)! 

[Cyrillic]

Incredibly, the Greek tutorial over at monachos also follows "Erasmusian"- I refuse to call it Greek.

The sheep in Aristophanes said βῆ βῆ. Have you ever heard sheep who produced a "vi, vi" sound?

Those darn sheep oughta catch up on their pronunciation! I'm sure there must be some evolved species somewhere in Greece that can properly articulate vita, just as there are hounds that bark af, af (αὗ, αὗ)! 

In Aristophanes' Acharnians someone imitating a pig said κοῒ κοΐ. I've never heard a pig say ki, ki.

[Theophilos78]

This morning I had a discussion with the Greek priest of my church.

I have been taught that in Greek certain combinations change the way a letter or phoneme is pronounced. For example:

s+m=zm (pirasmon is pronounced pirazmOn.

n+t=d (antilauou is pronounced AndilavU)

In the Lord's prayer we have:

pAter ImON o en tis ouranIs

When I recite this line fast, I pronounce en tis as en dis due to the combination rules above. However, the priest said I should separate the two words and not change t to d. He added that the rule in question is valid for combinations occurring in one single word. Still, I am confused. We have is mian in the Creed, yet we change the s to z (iZ mian) although these are separate words! 

[Mor Ephrem]

In Aristophanes' Acharnians someone imitating a pig said κοῒ κοΐ. I've never heard a pig say ki, ki.

Every Greek girl I've ever known who was named Kiki looked nothing like a pig...quite the opposite, actually.  

[Romaios]

In Aristophanes' Acharnians someone imitating a pig said κοῒ κοΐ. I've never heard a pig say ki, ki.

http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/Aristophanes/aristophanes.htm

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