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Author Topic: Inverse Conversion (from Orthodoxy to Catholicism)?  (Read 8766 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: August 05, 2007, 04:18:52 PM »

Dear friends:

For some time I have contemplated the possibility of being received into the Catholic Church (by the Traditional Rite of the Society of St. Pius X) this year.

I am deeply distressed because I inmensely love the beauty of the Byzantine Liturgy and my own spirituality is very Eastern and Byzantine.

However, I believe that the Catholic Church has logical and consistent answers about issues of faith such as the Final Judgement, what happens to the soul after death and so on. I have realized that the Church Fathers and Orthodox Saints of the first millenia believed in the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and that in spite of the awful abuses and evils that bad Popes and the Franks did, there was no reason to reject it in an absolute way.

I still wish to see Rome removing the filioque from the Creed because it was ilegal and wrong to insert that word without full approval of the Church and I hope Pope Benedict might take this step if he's truly interested to reconcile all with the Church he presides. I still believe that the Catholic Church should conform more to the Orthodox interpretations because they come from the first millenium, and we must go back to that time in order to restore unity.

However, I do believe that the Latin interpretations are also legitimate, and that things such as Papal infalibility and other dogmas that Rome proclaimed were necesary to protect the Western Church from its enemies.

I am attracted to Traditional Catholicism because it still preaches moral values and defends the sactity of human life and marriage while some sectors of the Church permit contraception, divorces and second marriages. Unfortunately sexual liberalism and lack of respect toward virginity for example, prevails in West and East Europe alike, as I have seen, even among the Orthodox.

I see that the Orthodox Church will face serious difficulties in the next years because those who attacked the Roman Church from inside and introduced those evil changes and modernist trends, will start to attack Orthodoxy. Things look very much here as they looked in Rome in the 1950's and I would not be surprised if the Orthodox Churches have their own "Vatican II" very soon.

Another thing that makes me think about changing is that I see the Catholic Church as more consistent with the history of my country than that of the Orthodox Church. The Martyrs of Taos NM attended the Old Rite Liturgy before they went to war and died for our nation.

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy has failed to attract enough Latin Americans in spite of the beautiful liturgy. I have found people who are very Protestant minded and attack the Roman Church like the Protestants do while we should be fighting on the same side. I am dissapointed that so many Christians both Catholic and Orthodox do not see these heretics as enemies of Christ and enemies of the people. I'd rather be a Muslim than a Protestant, and the Traditional Catholic Church is deeply anti-Protestant, that's one of the reasons I feel attached to the movement.

I still struggle with this, and many things encourage me to stay where I am because I know that being Catholic will be extremely difficult due to all the corruption in the modern hierarchy, the abuses that happen at their churches and all this rampant liberalism.

Being an Eastern Catholic will be more difficult also, because most Eastern Catholic parishes have latinized characteristics and even modernist ones. In my country there are very few churches offering the Greek Rite, many are latinized and vernacularized, but in Puebla, they have told me that a former GOA American priest is offering the Greek Liturgy in Greek in communion with the local RC bishop.

Maybe I should stay where I am.

I am confused.
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 07:11:46 PM »

Mexican, I understand your trouble although I saw it in a different way. I was born as a greek Orthodox then actually started practicing about 15 years old, recently I looked in to the claims made by the Catholic church and was nearly considering to look deeper in to it (seeing a Catholic preist talking to my parents about it) I looked in to Papal Infallability and was suprised to see my preconceptions about it diminish (because of the poisoning of protestant teachings saying it makes the pope free from sin), I understand that the church brought it in to protect particular parts of the church and off the top of my head I think that it has only been used once to dogmatize the assumption of the virgin mary. Now you are quite correct that the pre-schismatic church fathers accepted the primacy of the bishop of Rome as they were the largest of the Pentarchy. Orthodox would still see the primacy of the bishop of rome as 1st among equals, NOT as bishop of the bishops meaning he has a form of Authority over other bishops which was not how the Pentarchy was seen. The pope see's himself as the vicar of Christ which we Orthodox see as incorrect because we believe that Christ is truly alive and guiding his church. As much as people would like to rationalise theology it can not be "rationlised" in human terms because we will never understand God in the fullest meaning of that sense.  
(http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/podcasts/carlton/)
There is a great podcast by Clark Carlton called the tragedy of dogma which adresses the spirit of some of your issues. The Orthodox church see's Theosis as the reason we exist and as the way we come to salvation and this is the basis of Orthodoxy, any other dogma's which you say seem "rational" are in all truth not "needed" if a church is able to help you in your journey to reach Theosis then that is all that matters and the Orthodox does that in many ways. Also the Legalisation of certain things in Catholicism worry me there view of Atonement (although they profess no particular theory satisfaction theory is the main one) and in penance the legal view of saying a particular set of prayers (10 hail mary's , 5 our fathers) this legalisation takes away how God treats us all differently (in regards to our needs) and puts us all under one blanket. Sorry if it seems a bit jumbled or hard to understand but I just thought this might help a little  
  
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2007, 11:11:49 PM »

Dear Mexican,

As a Catholic, I probably cannot answer your question fully here without running afoul of the moderators (this is, after all, an EO board), so I would suggest you also ask these questions at some Catholic boards if you are looking for any Catholic answers. BTW, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head in your explanation and approach to the post-Vatican II chaos. It is a grave challenge facing every church, some earlier than others. I agree that EO should not gloat over the "spirit of VII"---just as Westerners should not have gloated over Iconoclasm or the monophysite crisis.

I would also suggest that if you decide to come into communion with Rome, try to fight the good fight and join a good traditional parish in regular status with your bishop rather than the SSPX (though I do not consider them in schism). It is true the EC churches can sometimes be a mixed bag liturgically, but on the whole they are definitely better than your typical suburban Novus Ordo American parish (sigh. . .I endured mass at one today). I know of some EC parishes whose congregation is half Latin Catholics (though, thanks be to God, with the reform of the reform ongoing and the liberation of the traditional mass, this kind of exile will likely be less necessary).

May the almighty God bless you in your discernment.

[How's that now?]
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 12:23:48 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 11:14:25 PM »

Methinks you've run afoul already...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2286.0.html
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 11:48:13 PM »


Thanks for the heads-up. I've made the necessary change.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 11:51:17 PM »

Thanks for the heads-up. I've made the necessary change.

Perhaps you should re-read the policy.
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 12:13:25 AM »

Sigh...I hope it is fine now.
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Peter J
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 10:47:37 AM »

Dear friends:

For some time I have contemplated the possibility of being received into the Catholic Church (by the Traditional Rite of the Society of St. Pius X) this year.

Clarification needed: usually when someone speaks of "being receive into the Catholic Church", it is assumed that they mean "entering into full communion with the Pope". In this case, however, I am reluctant to make that assumption since you also said "by the Traditional Rite of the Society of St. Pius X", which seems to suggest that you mean "entering into full communion with the SSPX".  (The SSPX isn't in full communion with the Pope -- notwithstanding the fact that intercommunion between the Catholic Church and the SSPX does take place, and the fact that Catholics who take communion at SSPX parishes are not automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.)

Or you might mean "being received into the Catholic Church through the Tridentine Rite" (which is, after all, the rite used by the Society of St. Pius X, although I would consider the phrase "the Traditional Rite of the Society of St. Pius X" to be a most unusual, and indeed derogatory, way of referring to the Tridentine Rite). (And I think, technically, it should be "usage" rather than "rite", since the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo are both usage of the Roman Rite.)

Thank you in advance for clarifying this matter.

I'd rather be a Muslim than a Protestant, and the Traditional Catholic Church is deeply anti-Protestant, that's one of the reasons I feel attached to the movement.

Just so you know, I think you will find that the SSPX is also very anti-Orthodox. 
(With regard to the fact that you'd rather be a Muslim than a Protestant, I doubt that even the SSPX could agree with you there.)

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 04:10:09 PM »

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy has failed to attract enough Latin Americans in spite of the beautiful liturgy. I have found people who are very Protestant minded and attack the Roman Church like the Protestants do while we should be fighting on the same side. I am dissapointed that so many Christians both Catholic and Orthodox do not see these heretics as enemies of Christ and enemies of the people. I'd rather be a Muslim than a Protestant, and the Traditional Catholic Church is deeply anti-Protestant, that's one of the reasons I feel attached to the movement.

I am confused.

Mexican,

Aren't we all confused?  Wink

You have your own journey to work out and I pray that you find peace with whatever it is you decide to do.  However, I have to admit that your Protestant bashing is hardly a reason to leave the Orthodox communion.  To be a true Christian is to be anti-Protestant?  And so you must leave the Orthodox Church because it is not anti-Protestant enough?  Granted, it's not a mark of the Church, but we are who we are.  Our theology and beliefs should never be examined from a standpoint as to what they agree with or what they are against, but from the sole vantage point that such a theology and beliefs are the Truth from the One God Who has revealed Himself to us.  I also have to admit that I'm distressed that you feel you cannot be Orthodox because not many people from Latin America are Orthodox. Being Orthodox is not about being part of a certain ethinicity or culture.  I'm not Arabic (full blooded German) but I feel right at home in an Antiochian Orthodox parish.  ANd Orthodoxy is growing in Latin America so that should not discourage you.

People go on their journeys for their own reasons.  And those reasons are not always rational.  My coming into Orthodoxy was hardly a rational affair.  I just hope that you are not going through this alone, but with the counsel of a priest.   Good luck to you.
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2007, 07:24:27 AM »

Is part of the reason you are not considering Orthodoxy because there are no Orthodox churches nearby? If so, I will not inquire any further because that is a vexing situation.
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2007, 05:57:13 PM »

I see that the Orthodox Church will face serious difficulties in the next years because those who attacked the Roman Church from inside and introduced those evil changes and modernist trends, will start to attack Orthodoxy. Things look very much here as they looked in Rome in the 1950's and I would not be surprised if the Orthodox Churches have their own "Vatican II" very soon.

How likely is this realy? On the one hand I have in my own experience heard people gripe that the Divine Liturgy is to Long and that women should be ordained. On the other hand look at the old believer split. Would'nt the same thing (splits/schisms) within the church happen if a "Vatican II" style revolution that would completly change the church occured. Most converts that I know of converted to leave the loonyness of their former denomination Catholic or Protestant and the same with lots of the clergy. I dont see it happening but then again I do worry about it. What do you think the chances are.
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2007, 07:18:04 PM »

I hope everything works out well for you. Just remember though that it is very difficult in most places to be an orthodox RC in my past experience as an RC if you were even slightly conservative you were looked down on by the Priests. Then there is the new Mass which out does itself in stupidity, low church episcopal services are more reverent then the Novus Ordo circus. I would advise staying Orthodox (but thats because I believe it to be the truth) but if you have to go RC I would try to find a Latin Mass parish SSPX or regularized. If you dont the modern RC will crush you. At least that is what I have found before I became Orthodox I was a RC in a regular New Mass parish and then I went to the SSPX to escape the Vatican II changes. What I discovered after research though is that the RC is all about change they seem to change every couple of hundred years or so. The OC historicly seems to me to have stayed true to its past and traditions and wont compromise them for the secular culture. Good luck to you.
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2007, 07:19:35 PM »

Yuck, sorry about the grammer on that post that was pretty bad. Shocked
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2007, 10:31:56 AM »


Just so you know, I think you will find that the SSPX is also very anti-Orthodox. 

They are. I have friends who attend SSPX Masses (they're only once a month here) and do not attend the Novus Ordo at all. They told me when I decided to become Orthodox that I was joining a "schismatic" church and following a "schismatic" faith. They say that it's a sin to attend Orthodox services, and that they wouldn't even attend my engagement service, since it's not a Catholic serivce.

My former Catholic godmother, however, attends the Orthodox Liturgy sometimes and is very good friends with our priest. She has a completely different view about Orthodoxy altogether.

With regards to the Papacy - I suggest you read The Papacy by Abbé Guettée. There were Popes who actually refuted the position of one bishop having authority over the entire Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch said that the "Rock" referred to in Matthew 16:18 was Peter's confession of faith in Christ.
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2007, 11:29:00 AM »

Dear Theodot,

At least that is what I have found before I became Orthodox I was a RC in a regular New Mass parish and then I went to the SSPX to escape the Vatican II changes. What I discovered after research though is that the RC is all about change they seem to change every couple of hundred years or so.

To a certain extent I have to agree with you.

This is, I think, the point where I take issue with the anti-Vatican II Catholics (or at least the more radical ones, depending on how broadly you use the term "anti-Vatican II"): Specifically, I do not by any means deny that there were a lot of changes in the Catholic Church after Vatican II, and many of those changes were misinterpretations of the council; but the thing that many Tridentine-ists and others miss is that the very same things can be said about Vatican I, and for that matter about Trent. (I'd say that in the case of Vatican I, many of the interpretations have gone so far as to reduce the Church to a Sola Papa principle.)

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2007, 12:51:02 PM »

They are. I have friends who attend SSPX Masses (they're only once a month here) and do not attend the Novus Ordo at all. They told me when I decided to become Orthodox that I was joining a "schismatic" church and following a "schismatic" faith. They say that it's a sin to attend Orthodox services, and that they wouldn't even attend my engagement service, since it's not a Catholic serivce.

Dear MichaelArchangelos,

I don't really see why you'd be bothered by Catholics calling your Church "schismatic" (although I do see a sad irony to the fact that the ones saying that are themselves receiving communion at a schismatic church). After all, don't you, as an Orthodox, consider the Catholic Church to be "schismatic", i.e. "not in full communion with the one subsistence of Christ's Church"?

On the other hand, there are also a lot of Catholics out there (Melkites, especially) who say that the Orthodox are not schismatic, and I respect their opinion -- in fact, I find that idea considerably less troubling than Lubeltri's statement that some Orthodox are schismatic but others are not. (As I recall, he said that the anti-Catholic Orthodox were schismatic, but the ecumenical-minded Orthodox weren't. That's not an exact quote, but Lubeltri can correct me if I'm off.)


Now, with regards to your friends saying that attending an Orthodox liturgy is sinful, that's quite a different matter. That's not even (to my mind, at least) a permissible opinion for a Catholic to hold, much less an official Catholic position. (And I don't even know what "schismatic faith" means.)


My former Catholic godmother, however, attends the Orthodox Liturgy sometimes and is very good friends with our priest. She has a completely different view about Orthodoxy altogether.

She sounds like a very wise lady.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2007, 10:41:08 PM »

I am still thinking about my future decission and this will most likely be delayed.

If it's difficult to be Orthodox here because of the lack of churches (I can't go to the capital very often), conflicts between jurisdictions that compete and others, it will be more difficult to be an Eastern Catholic, because finding a truly Eastern Eastern-Rite and well-celebrated among Catholics is probably more difficult than to find a well-celebrated Tridentine liturgy.

Long time ago I attended a maronite liturgy in Mexico City (it was St. Charbel's day) and the priests celebrated mass "versus populum" in a church arranged according to modern forms, at the Melkite Church I attended Vespers and there was a via crucis, pews and (if i'm not mistaken) statues in the parish. My only hope is to see if this Greek Church in Puebla does celebrate the Divine Liturgy in a traditional way (they do so in Greek, unlike the GOA that does it in the vernacular so this might be a good sign).

I haven't found anti-Orthodox feelings among the SSPX here, in fact many respect the Orthodox because we have not changed our liturgies and preserve the Old Faith.
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2007, 11:07:29 PM »

I am still thinking about my future decission and this will most likely be delayed.

If it's difficult to be Orthodox here because of the lack of churches (I can't go to the capital very often), conflicts between jurisdictions that compete and others, it will be more difficult to be an Eastern Catholic, because finding a truly Eastern Eastern-Rite and well-celebrated among Catholics is probably more difficult than to find a well-celebrated Tridentine liturgy.

Long time ago I attended a maronite liturgy in Mexico City (it was St. Charbel's day) and the priests celebrated mass "versus populum" in a church arranged according to modern forms, at the Melkite Church I attended Vespers and there was a via crucis, pews and (if i'm not mistaken) statues in the parish. My only hope is to see if this Greek Church in Puebla does celebrate the Divine Liturgy in a traditional way (they do so in Greek, unlike the GOA that does it in the vernacular so this might be a good sign).

You're opposed to hearing the Divine Liturgy in Spanish? Why? Vernacular is the Eastern tradition.

Quote
I haven't found anti-Orthodox feelings among the SSPX here, in fact many respect the Orthodox because we have not changed our liturgies and preserve the Old Faith.

Your focus seems to be on liturgical celebration. There are traditional and modernist celebrations of liturgy in all Churches, Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc....what matters is faith. Roman Catholicism was anathematized many times by Orthodox Synods, and the Roman Catholic Church anathematized many Orthodox beliefs at the Council of Florence.  They are not the same faith, not the same Church. You should pick your Church based on who teaches the true faith, not on "traditional liturgies" (especially when your sense of what is traditional itself seems to be influenced by Latin thought in that you are preferring a liturgy in a foreign language over the vernacular, which is Orthodox tradition, cf. Sts Cyril and Methodius).

Anastasios
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2007, 02:21:59 PM »

Isn't that a relative thing? For example, while it's true that St. Cyril and Methodius translated the liturgy from Greek to Slavonic, the liturgy was not translated to each of the slavic dialects of the East.

The Russian Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, even the more liberal Macedonian Church all preserved the liturgy in Slavonic and the attempts to use the vernacular have been met with ressistance (as is the case of Serbia). The Greek Orthodox Church has refused to introduce modern Greek in the liturgy. The Armenian Church (even among the Unia) still uses Old Armenian, just as the Syriacs, the Maronites, the Copts.

I am not saying that all the liturgy should be entirely uninteligible to the people (I would say that the moveable parts of the liturgy should be sung in the vernacular while the parts of the liturgy that are fixed and that people know could be sung in Greek or Slavonic to preserve the mystery in the liturgy.

The presence of Latin, Slavonic and Greek being dead languages contribute to unity among the different peoples who are Christian and encourage people to learn more about their faith.

It's just my opinion.

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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 11:25:34 PM »

On the other hand, there are also a lot of Catholics out there (Melkites, especially) who say that the Orthodox are not schismatic, and I respect their opinion -- in fact, I find that idea considerably less troubling than Lubeltri's statement that some Orthodox are schismatic but others are not. (As I recall, he said that the anti-Catholic Orthodox were schismatic, but the ecumenical-minded Orthodox weren't. That's not an exact quote, but Lubeltri can correct me if I'm off.)

Come on, you've got to be a better nemesis than that---you totally misunderstood my statement! Of course all Eastern Orthodox are part of a church that is in schism. That has never been under question. However, some are more schismatic in spirit than others. I hope I am being clear here. If not, forgive me. It is not every day that somebody implies I am a wishy-washy ecumenist, because I certainly am not.

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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2007, 11:51:43 PM »

You should pick your Church based on who teaches the true faith, not on "traditional liturgies"

I completely agree with this. Your other statement about Catholicism being anathemized by many Orthodox synods, though---isn't the signifcance of this under some dispute? I have heard some Orthodox say that the only synod with the pan-EO authority to anathemize the entire Patriarchate of Rome would be an ecumenical synod, and since none have done so, the status of the patriarchate is a question of theological opinion? I always found this an interesting line of argument.

The presence of Latin, Slavonic and Greek being dead languages contribute to unity among the different peoples who are Christian and encourage people to learn more about their faith.

It's just my opinion.

I am in agreement here, Mexican.
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2007, 10:42:15 AM »

I hope everything works out well for you. Just remember though that it is very difficult in most places to be an orthodox RC in my past experience as an RC if you were even slightly conservative you were looked down on by the Priests. Then there is the new Mass which out does itself in stupidity, low church episcopal services are more reverent then the Novus Ordo circus. I would advise staying Orthodox (but thats because I believe it to be the truth) but if you have to go RC I would try to find a Latin Mass parish SSPX or regularized. If you dont the modern RC will crush you. At least that is what I have found before I became Orthodox I was a RC in a regular New Mass parish and then I went to the SSPX to escape the Vatican II changes. What I discovered after research though is that the RC is all about change they seem to change every couple of hundred years or so. The OC historicly seems to me to have stayed true to its past and traditions and wont compromise them for the secular culture. Good luck to you.
Not my experience at all. It has been very easy to an orthodox Roman Catholic. There bunches of us.
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2007, 07:30:11 PM »

Come on, you've got to be a better nemesis than that---you totally misunderstood my statement! Of course all Eastern Orthodox are part of a church that is in schism. That has never been under question. However, some are more schismatic in spirit than others. I hope I am being clear here.

So noted.

If not, forgive me. It is not every day that somebody implies I am a wishy-washy ecumenist, because I certainly am not.

I find it a little difficult to imagine anyone thinking you a wishy-washy ecumenist. My impression has been that you are as ecumenical as the Union of Brest (give or take).

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2007, 08:51:29 PM »

In my experience, the Roman Catholics are more tolerant towards protestants than the Orthodox (theologically speaking).
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2007, 08:53:01 PM »

I am a firm Orthodox; however, I will say that I do like how the RCC is direct about its moral teaching.
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2007, 09:19:54 PM »

In my experience, the Roman Catholics are more tolerant towards protestants than the Orthodox (theologically speaking).

Of course they are. The Protestants are their children.
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2007, 11:26:46 PM »

I've come across more Catholics that were tolerant towards Orthodox than towards Protestants... though that response may have had something to do with my helping them in their debates with Evangelicals. I'm sure if I spent the whole time on papal infallibility or something, they'd have been much less friendly. Then again, some Catholics seem to be of the view that there aren't any significant theological differences, and that reunion is just around the bend.
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2007, 08:49:25 AM »

Of course they are. The Protestants are their children.

I don't disagree with that; nevertheless I still think it's clear that the Catholic Church ought to be more ecumenical toward Orthodoxy than towards Protestants.

And I think she is, at least at the magisterial level. The thing is that in "popular Catholicism" there is a tendency to pretend that the Orthodox don't even exist.

-Peter.
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2007, 09:04:35 AM »


And I think she is, at least at the magisterial level. The thing is that in "popular Catholicism" there is a tendency to pretend that the Orthodox don't even exist.

-Peter.
Chuckle..probably true, but not in Pittsburgh. Too many of us and too many of 'them' for us not to be aware of the other.
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2007, 10:29:12 AM »

Catholicism being so much closer to Orthodoxy in tradition and practice, the animosity can ironically be greater. However, at other times, I've seen a closer relationship than with Protestants. After all, they are our children, but they have rebelled. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are like brothers who grew apart. A rebellion vs. an estrangement. Certainly different dynamics.
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2007, 03:20:52 PM »

Catholicism being so much closer to Orthodoxy in tradition and practice, the animosity can ironically be greater. However, at other times, I've seen a closer relationship than with Protestants. After all, they are our children, but they have rebelled. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are like brothers who grew apart. A rebellion vs. an estrangement. Certainly different dynamics.


Meaning no disrespect to you personally, or your Church in general, but the "child in rebellion" trope could have other interpretations, such as possibly breaking away from percieved abuse/tyranny/injustice.  And now many generations down the line, perhaps the opinion of the 'parent' is not seen as umm without bias perhaps?

Again, I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings with this idea.  I am just suggesting that other people have different perceptions.l

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM »


Meaning no disrespect to you personally, or your Church in general, but the "child in rebellion" trope could have other interpretations, such as possibly breaking away from percieved abuse/tyranny/injustice.  And now many generations down the line, perhaps the opinion of the 'parent' is not seen as umm without bias perhaps?

Again, I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings with this idea.  I am just suggesting that other people have different perceptions.l

Ebor

Well, times certainly have changed, haven't they? The authentic (i.e. traditional/conservative) remnants of the old mainline denominations (with the exception of some Reformed stalwarts) are downright friendly to Catholicism. And on our end, Anglicans and Lutherans, blood enemies of Rome centuries ago, seem much more catholic to us than the nonconformists who came after. So I will definitely give you that, and I will definitely give you this, expressed so well by Pope Benedict XVI in his recent letter accompanying Summorum Pontificum:

Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church�s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden.

Of course, however, I need not justify the rebellion to admit that the response to it was sometimes imprudent or that some reform (not in dogma) was necessary.

All in all, though, I'm pretty Anglican-friendly, as mentioned before.

Thanks for the response.
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2007, 01:08:21 AM »

Of course we have become friendly with Protestants. Most of them will pray with us.  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2007, 01:16:59 AM »

Of course, however, I need not justify the rebellion to admit that the response to it was sometimes imprudent or that some reform (not in dogma) was necessary.

To quote from 1776 in the voice of Benjamin Franklin: "A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal."

 Wink

It's heartening to see the thought that there was errmm some lack on the RC side as well.

Ebor


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