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Author Topic: Abortion again?  (Read 31164 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bono Vox
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« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2007, 08:18:21 PM »

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Yes, I'm sure abortions did take place before Communism. Yet, with Communism 20yrs gone, there's more freedoms in Romania. Freedom to go against one's religion to be sure, but also more freedom for the Church to teach openly.


Preach it brotha!
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« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2007, 09:17:43 PM »

In 15 or so years you expect to fix 2 1/2 generations worth of communist influence.
Ah, the impatience of youth...
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« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2007, 09:25:51 PM »

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In 15 or so years you expect to fix 2 1/2 generations worth of communist influence.
Ah, the impatience of youth...

I at least expect some change. We can start with decreasing a 70% abortion rate.

What do you think the church should do? Just sit on their hands and do nothing? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2007, 09:33:16 PM »

DID I SAY THAT?
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« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2007, 09:36:38 PM »

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DID I SAY THAT?

So do you at least agree there is more the Romanian church should and could do regarding the high abortion rate? Do you think there should be at least some results after nearly 20 years of the downfall of communism?  Huh
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« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2007, 09:47:39 PM »

So do you at least agree there is more the Romanian church should and could do regarding the high abortion rate? Do you think there should be at least some results after nearly 20 years of the downfall of communism?  Huh
Not in the way you seem to think.
It seems many look to the Church as an institutional font of correction, expecting bishops and priests and deacons to 'fix' the problem. What many seem to miss is that together WE are the Church as well. Pounding on a keyboard harping on what is not being done (allegedly) is a real cop out. It's not just the problem of the Romanian Church, but our problem.
When someone points out that priests are being sent from here to the old country to help in the recovery, I see criticism that the Church has failed.
I don't know about you, but I take that failure personally.
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« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2007, 11:00:02 PM »

So do you at least agree there is more the Romanian church should and could do regarding the high abortion rate? Do you think there should be at least some results after nearly 20 years of the downfall of communism?  Huh

Hi OB,

Perhaps the reason the Orthodox church in Romania has little effect on the abortion rate is because most young Romanians do not attend church. If someone is Orthodox in name only and does not attend church then they will never learn that abortion is a sin. Fr. Aris heads over there to help teach the Romanian clergy how to develop youth programs using methods that have worked here.
But from what I understand the Romanians have many other problems at this time. One of our Antiochian priests was going to go over on another OCMC mission trip to help start an alcholism program for Orthodox clergy in that country but he was then reassigned to a larger parish and could not fulfill the mission.
See the abortion issue is probably a symptom of many other problems the country is having as a whole. Romanians are very intelligent people. Once they are able to pull their economy out of the doldrums and improve their health care system then we may start seeing those abortion numbers drop. I wasn't joking about helping them, I was being very serious. My parish supported the missionaries who worked in that country. The missionaries established an orphanage and then taught the Romanians how to sustain it. We continue to send money to the orphanage and to our missionaries in that country. Maybe the work of Fr. Aris can be expanded on if others who care about Romania get involved and start helping them.
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« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2007, 11:16:16 PM »

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Not in the way you seem to think.
It seems many look to the Church as an institutional font of correction, expecting bishops and priests and deacons to 'fix' the problem. What many seem to miss is that together WE are the Church as well. Pounding on a keyboard harping on what is not being done (allegedly) is a real cop out. It's not just the problem of the Romanian Church, but our problem.
When someone points out that priests are being sent from here to the old country to help in the recovery, I see criticism that the Church has failed.
I don't know about you, but I take that failure personally.

We are the church, but the clergy are the shepherds. The clergy have a greater responsibility than the laity do. The clergy teach and instruct people in the Way. That is their job. When there is a 70% abortion rate in a country that is 90% Orthodox, then the clergy need to do more. The clergy in Romania have direct contact on a daily basis with the people of Romania. Most people in the U.S, Canada, India, Greece, Australia, etc... do not. The Romanian clergy are the ones who are to primarily instruct the faithful. Yes we are all mystically connected and have a responsibility towards one another. This does not mean, however, the church gets a pass when it is lacking during such a crisis. 

I will also repeat again what i said in one of my prior posts, the high abortion rate is not entirely the church's fault. There are many socio-economic factors at play;however, the church could make a BIG difference if it were to step up on this issue. The church needs to educate, educate, educate the faithful constantly.

I ask you again, do you think the church needs to step up on this issue? What do you think the church should do?
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« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2007, 11:54:42 PM »

It seems many look to the Church as an institutional font of correction,
It is that, but so much more. I look at it as a hospital where the 'doctors' should be making house calls. In America, 'house calls' probably wouldn't work. Door to door evangelism is not regarded too kindly here. But in a country that practically began as Orthodox, I would think that door to door visits would be looked on quite favorably. It would at least convey that the clergy really cares. I'm not suggesting that they don't because I know better. But how great would it make you feel if your priest came by just to say howdy?

Pounding on a keyboard harping on what is not being done (allegedly) is a real cop out. It's not just the problem of the Romanian Church, but our problem.
When someone points out that priests are being sent from here to the old country to help in the recovery, I see criticism that the Church has failed.
Making an observation based on factual information and then talking about it is not a cop out. There must be an impetus to act *before* one will act. If you don't know I'm hungry, you won't know to offer me food, right? I didn't realize that abortion rates in Romania were sky high. Now that I do, I'd like to offer whatever assistance I can. But in the process, I would like to know not only why it's so high, but what my Church is doing as well. I don't think anyone said the worldwide Orthodox Church has failed Romania, but the Church in Romania is failing. To say so is not an indictment against the Church. It's simply stating a fact. Now, as many have pointed out, there are many reasons as to WHY this is so, but that doesn't change the fact that it is so. A business with a 70% failure rate will fold before the 3rd quarter rolls around. Maybe some will care, but most will not. In this instance two things are at stake. 1st, the hundreds of precious children and their parents' salvation. 2nd, IF this situation were to continue as 'business as usual', it'll only become worse and the Church in Romania will have an even bigger problem. Which means WE will have an even bigger problem.
 

I don't know about you, but I take that failure personally.
Brother Aristokles, to say that there is room for improvement shouldn't be taken offensively.
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« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2007, 11:56:38 PM »

Hi OB,

Perhaps the reason the Orthodox church in Romania has little effect on the abortion rate is because most young Romanians do not attend church. If someone is Orthodox in name only and does not attend church then they will never learn that abortion is a sin. Fr. Aris heads over there to help teach the Romanian clergy how to develop youth programs using methods that have worked here.
But from what I understand the Romanians have many other problems at this time. One of our Antiochian priests was going to go over on another OCMC mission trip to help start an alcholism program for Orthodox clergy in that country but he was then reassigned to a larger parish and could not fulfill the mission.
See the abortion issue is probably a symptom of many other problems the country is having as a whole. Romanians are very intelligent people. Once they are able to pull their economy out of the doldrums and improve their health care system then we may start seeing those abortion numbers drop. I wasn't joking about helping them, I was being very serious. My parish supported the missionaries who worked in that country. The missionaries established an orphanage and then taught the Romanians how to sustain it. We continue to send money to the orphanage and to our missionaries in that country. Maybe the work of Fr. Aris can be expanded on if others who care about Romania get involved and start helping them.
Tamara,

 Thank you for giving us info on Fr. Aris and his mission. I will be contacting him asap and I urge all of you to do what you can.
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« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2007, 12:01:40 AM »

It is not the role of the church to be a lobbying group for social conservatism. Perhaps the Church has not addressed this issue because it is not viewed as significant, perhaps the Church finds it more important to try and reinforce connections between the Church and the faithful than drive them away by forcing a political ideology upon them.

The main criticism I see here seems to be that the Church of Romania has different priorities than some posters on this board. If one wishes to go to Romania and preach the gospel of social conservatism, they are free to do so, but perhaps we should yield to the Bishops and Priests of Romania when determining the proper role of the Church in that country.
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« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2007, 12:28:29 AM »

It is not the role of the church to be a lobbying group for social conservatism.
I have no idea what you're talking about, brother. Saving lives isn't mere social conservatism.


Perhaps the Church has not addressed this issue because it is not viewed as significant, perhaps the Church finds it more important to try and reinforce connections between the Church and the faithful than drive them away by forcing a political ideology upon them.
Perhaps you're correct. I don't think anyone has criticized the methods used to address this problem (and be sure that it is a problem), per se. However the Church wishes to address the issue, I will support and submit to their wisdom. But I don't think it wrong for anyone to question *why* there is a 70% abortion rate in a relatively small country with a very high percentage of Orthodox Christians. Wanting answers is no crime. And again, brother, I agree that forcing people to do anything is not the Orthodox way, but I don't see how preventing abortion is political ideology. I would argue that the majority of Christians, at least Orthodox Christians, wouldn't see that as belonging to any particular political ideology either.


The main criticism I see here seems to be that the Church of Romania has different priorities than some posters on this board. If one wishes to go to Romania and preach the gospel of social conservatism, they are free to do so, but perhaps we should yield to the Bishops and Priests of Romania when determining the proper role of the Church in that country.
Maybe we should yield to the Bishops and Priests, but their titles do not necessarily warrant a free pass. Because the Romanian clergy are welcoming and inviting American clergy to help them address many issues, this tells me that my concerns are their concerns as well. Again, I'm thinking of the Priest who said about the street orphans that "they choose to live that way." I'm positive that this is not representative of all Romanian clergy, but a few bad apples can spoil a pretty big barrel.
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« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2007, 12:33:09 AM »

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It is not the role of the church to be a lobbying group for social conservatism. Perhaps the Church has not addressed this issue because it is not viewed as significant, perhaps the Church finds it more important to try and reinforce connections between the Church and the faithful than drive them away by forcing a political ideology upon them.

The main criticism I see here seems to be that the Church of Romania has different priorities than some posters on this board. If one wishes to go to Romania and preach the gospel of social conservatism, they are free to do so, but perhaps we should yield to the Bishops and Priests of Romania when determining the proper role of the Church in that country.

And this piece of advise comes from a guy who wants the church to "provide condoms free of charge". Sorry bro, but your moral arguments don't bear weight with me.
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« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2007, 12:38:50 AM »

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Maybe we should yield to the Bishops and Priests, but their titles do not necessarily warrant a free pass. Because the Romanian clergy are welcoming and inviting American clergy to help them address many issues, this tells me that my concerns are their concerns as well. Again, I'm thinking of the Priest who said about the street orphans that "they choose to live that way." I'm positive that this is not representative of all Romanian clergy, but a few bad apples can spoil a pretty big barrel.


Excellent point Jibrahil. Keep preachin' brotha Gabe!
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« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2007, 12:40:26 AM »

And this piece of advise comes from a guy who wants the church to "provide condoms free of charge". Sorry bro, but your moral arguments don't bear weight with me.

I believe it has been well established that we have different concepts of morality, but the point of my post wasn't to convert you to my way of thinking (I've been a rather radical social conservative before, I know very well that nothing I could possible say would convert one devoted to such an ideology). Rather, my intention was simply to argue that the Church does not inherently have a responsibility to act as the political force many here seem to believe she should be. Perhaps the clergy in Romania have different priorities that effecting social change and, quite frankly, we here in a country never ravaged by communism are hardly in a position to criticize their pastoral priorities and the manner in which they choose to preach to the faithful.
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« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2007, 12:45:46 AM »

I have no idea what you're talking about, brother. Saving lives isn't mere social conservatism.

This is a discussion for the politics section, so I will leave it for the time being

Quote
Perhaps you're correct. I don't think anyone has criticized the methods used to address this problem (and be sure that it is a problem), per se. However the Church wishes to address the issue, I will support and submit to their wisdom. But I don't think it wrong for anyone to question *why* there is a 70% abortion rate in a relatively small country with a very high percentage of Orthodox Christians. Wanting answers is no crime. And again, brother, I agree that forcing people to do anything is not the Orthodox way, but I don't see how preventing abortion is political ideology. I would argue that the majority of Christians, at least Orthodox Christians, wouldn't see that as belonging to any particular political ideology either.

You assume that the abortion rate is a problem, I disagree, I believe it is a symptom of greater problems such as poverty and the lack of contraceptives.

Quote
Maybe we should yield to the Bishops and Priests, but their titles do not necessarily warrant a free pass. Because the Romanian clergy are welcoming and inviting American clergy to help them address many issues, this tells me that my concerns are their concerns as well. Again, I'm thinking of the Priest who said about the street orphans that "they choose to live that way." I'm positive that this is not representative of all Romanian clergy, but a few bad apples can spoil a pretty big barrel.

Perhaps some in Romania may share your concerns, but this does not mean that they share an understanding of the role of the Church in this matter or share pastoral priorities.
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« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2007, 12:58:47 AM »

my intention was simply to argue that the Church does not inherently have a responsibility to act as the political force many here seem to believe she should be.
Two things, brother. 1) Preventing abortions (killing babies) is NOT a political objective. It is a moral objective. All Orthodox Christians should be on board with this. We, Orthodox Christians, have not only an imperative to do so, we have a command from our savior to do so. I back this up with the fact that we, Orthodox Christians, have an organization (of whose name just now escapes me) formed to combat this crime against humanity. 2) I'm surprised that a 70% mortality rate due to aborted babies seems to hardly raise many of y'alls eyebrows. "But the Church suffered under Communism for a really long time!" Yes, we know. We've all read the accounts. And while I would be a fool to discount that part of their history, that doesn't excuse anyone now. Obstacles suck, but they also provide us with greater wisdom and a stronger will to succeed. And you know what? This is way more than just an Orthodox problem. Here in the Good Ol' Morally Bankrupt U S of A, even WE don't have that big of a percentage rate!
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« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2007, 01:02:51 AM »

Considering that Romania can be called no longer a truly Orthodox nation--sure, 90% of the population claims to be Orthodox, but this in itself does not make a nation truly Orthodox; Orthodox faith and praxis, not ethnicity, is what makes one truly Orthodox--how much can the Church really be an agent for developing government policy and driving societal change?  Forgive the cliché, though I think it applies here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
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« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2007, 01:06:14 AM »

You assume that the abortion rate is a problem, I disagree, I believe it is a symptom of greater problems such as poverty and the lack of contraceptives.
Orthodox Christians *know* that any abortion rate is a problem regardless of *why* or *how* it came about. Lack of a Christian education, not money, is the *why* here. A nation of un-educated clergy is the *how*.
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« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2007, 01:10:18 AM »

Two things, brother. 1) Preventing abortions (killing babies) is NOT a political objective. It is a moral objective. All Orthodox Christians should be on board with this. We, Orthodox Christians, have not only an imperative to do so, we have a command from our savior to do so. I back this up with the fact that we, Orthodox Christians, have an organization (of whose name just now escapes me) formed to combat this crime against humanity.

That's a matter of opinion, but for me to expand too much on this point would require me to delve into the politics of the issue and this is the wrong forum.

Quote
2) I'm surprised that a 70% mortality rate due to aborted babies seems to hardly raise many of y'alls eyebrows. "But the Church suffered under Communism for a really long time!" Yes, we know. We've all read the accounts. And while I would be a fool to discount that part of their history, that doesn't excuse anyone now. Obstacles suck, but they also provide us with greater wisdom and a stronger will to succeed. And you know what? This is way more than just an Orthodox problem. Here in the Good Ol' Morally Bankrupt U S of A, even WE don't have that big of a percentage rate!

The US is wealthier and has wider birth control use, it's not really all that surprising. My point is, however, that this point is relatively insignificant to the Church, that it's primarially a political issue that the Church should stay out of. The only reason the abortion rate bothers be is because I understand it as a symptom of poverty and lack of sexual education.

Orthodox Christians *know* that any abortion rate is a problem regardless of *why* or *how* it came about. Lack of a Christian education, not money, is the *why* here. A nation of un-educated clergy is the *how*.

The problem is poverty and a lack of sexual education, not abortion; and while some clergy may be uneducated, at least they understand this point and know better than to attack the symptoms while ignoring the cause.
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« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2007, 01:16:04 AM »

Considering that Romania can be called no longer a truly Orthodox nation--sure, 90% of the population claims to be Orthodox, but this in itself does not make a nation truly Orthodox; Orthodox faith and praxis, not ethnicity, is what makes one truly Orthodox--how much can the Church really be an agent for developing government policy and driving societal change?  Forgive the cliché, though I think it applies here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I wonder if what is truly most necessary right now is that the Romanian people be re-Christianized via the evangelistic process that brought Romania to Orthodoxy centuries ago before we can have any hope of curbing the atrociously high abortion rate.  Yes, I mourn the 70% abortion rate in Romania, but I don't see this as a fundamental problem.  Rather, I see this abortion rate as symptomatic of even deeper problems, such as the lack of a genuine Christian faith and praxis.  We have to first rekindle our love for God and our love for neighbor, together with the reverence for human life that this inevitably builds, before we can even talk about combating a 70% abortion rate.


Like GiC, I agree that the abortion rate in and of itself is not the underlying problem, but rather the symptom and consequence of something deeper.  Unlike GiC, I have a different idea of what that foundational problem really is.
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« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2007, 01:19:20 AM »

^Look, maybe we're saying the same things here. Maybe it's a matter of symantics. Because I don't want this thread to be shuffled over to the politics board, I'll just say this: Any percentage rate of babies being aborted is too high. There are many reasons as to *why* abortion is around and tolerated. But preventing it is one of the many jobs of the Christian clergy and laity.
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« Reply #112 on: August 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM »

^Look, maybe we're saying the same things here. Maybe it's a matter of symantics. Because I don't want this thread to be shuffled over to the politics board, I'll just say this: Any percentage rate of babies being aborted is too high. There are many reasons as to *why* abortion is around and tolerated. But preventing it is one of the many jobs of the Christian clergy and laity.
This is kinda like taking out a blackberry patch, though.  If you cut each blackberry vine down to the ground (i.e., attack the abortion problem directly) without pulling the vine out by its roots (i.e., re-Christianize Romania with the basics of the Gospel), the vine will only grow back.  To be most successful at clearing the blackberry patch, you have to attack each vine at the roots--this often requires great effort to dig under the vine (not to mention a good pair of thick leather gloves to protect your hands from the blackberry's many thorns--just watch out for the yellow-jacket nest. Shocked).
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« Reply #113 on: August 16, 2007, 03:34:17 AM »

Ole' Nacho gets back from tending bar and look at the mess he finds here....... Grin To lighten things up a bit I just wanted to inform everyone of something very important:

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« Reply #114 on: August 16, 2007, 08:00:06 AM »

You might be pleased to know that the number of abortions is dropping:
http://www.primulpas.ro.org/avortul/statistici.html

The statistics that you got had numbers from the beggining of the 90's when there was a an abortion boom.
The reasons behind these numbers where the facts that during the communist era, Ceausescu thought "the more, the marryier", so outlawed abortions; and the one that you couldn't find contraceptives. Only in the mid 90's condoms could be found on a large scale in Romania. As a result many women died because of complications from illegal abortions. The government after 1990 considered it inhumane so the abortions were legal again. They probably considered a better approach to kill the babies rather than to kill the mothers...
Of course, abortions are still a major problem.
A very good (Romanian) article can be found here:
http://www.hotnews.ro/articol_17511-Un-sfert-de-milion-de-avorturi-pe-an.htm

But I didn't want to post because of that. I wanted to post because some started to throw stones at the Romanian Orthodox Church.
You have no right to accuse the Orthodox Church for the abortions.
The stance on the abortions can be found right on the official site of the Romanian Patriarchate:
http://www.patriarhia.ro/Site/Comisii/bioetica.html

There are a number of Orthodox organisations that deal with abortions:
http://www.sfintii-arhangheli.ro/

There are many reasons for such a big number of abortions:
-poverty: no money for contraceptives; ignorance because of no access to information, etc.
-lack of Christian life. Now, at a first glance, some may consider that this is the the fault of the church.
The fault of the church is the lack of cathehesis. But, even those who are Orthodox, but don't know much of the faith, know it's a sin. They are either atheists who come from former communist families or Orthodox who know that what they do it's a sin, but they still do it. So what can the Church do? Of course, there is always room for improvement. Maybe a more direct aproach would help. But to say that the Romanian Orthodox Church has failed her people because of this is too much.
-western propaganda. I'm reffering to the whole emphasis on SEX that came from the western world after 1990 (and especially from US). Now you can see on TV (at hours that are accessible for children) shows that treat (for example) the relationship between stress and women's sex life. 99% of the movies have at least a sexual scene in it. The teen magazines write about how normal masturbation is. Playboy, Penthouse and simmilar magazines exacerbate the imagination of men. The highschool teen consider nowadays that if you are a virgin at 16, then you are a looser. Sex is considered a basic need, just like food.
Now, if this came in the 1930's, it would have been a different story. But exposed to it right after 50 years of atheist propaganda.... And please, don't compare the situation in Poland and Czech Republic to that in Romania and Russia. The communist regime there wasn't that harsh.
As a distinction, the "sexual revolution" didn't occur yet in Russia (or not at a such a large scale) because they were completely against Americans and all that came from them.

I'm not implying that Americans are bad. Most of the ones I know are very nice people. But, unfortunately, the good parts came along with the bad parts. And evil travels faster.

A good Christian life would protect us from all of these. But that is hard to accomplish. Even in 20 years. Not when Christianity is old fashioned. Now it's the "live life to the extreme" trend. When they see an Orthodox service on TV, they change the channel. But when the spicy aspects of the sexual life of some "celebrity" is on TV, they turn the volume up.

So, instead of throwing stones, maybe you should pray for us, the sinners.

Forgive me.
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« Reply #115 on: August 16, 2007, 08:10:51 AM »

I'd like to add the list of attacks that recenly occured against the Romanian Orthodox Church:

- the petition for removing the icons from the classrooms because they are "offensive"
- the petition for removing the prayer "Our Father" from the broadcast of the national radio station because they don't promote "equality between religions"

They will choose a new Patriarch instead of the reposed Patriarch Teoctist. One of the most important candidates is a well known ecumenicist and many of the voters are masons.

So, please pray for our church.
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« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2007, 08:35:01 AM »

Thanks for your Reply post #115 above. As I suspected, the data being argued here was dated. But I'm sure the opposition here will not agree that the Church isn't failing, or that it is improving the situation - that would be unthinkable: to get off the soapbox, drop the stones, and do something to help. Hah! Silly me...
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« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2007, 08:51:19 AM »

Brother Aristokles, to say that there is room for improvement shouldn't be taken offensively.

I think you misunderstand a poorly worded sentence. I am not offended, or take this as effrontery, but I do admit that I am personally responsible and called to action, and that not merely being to berate bishops for not doing their "job".
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« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2007, 09:05:11 AM »

Orthodox Christians *know* that any abortion rate is a problem regardless of *why* or *how* it came about. Lack of a Christian education, not money, is the *why* here. A nation of un-educated clergy is the *how*.
And how we interpret data is also an issue. To say that Romania has uneducated clergy based on Romania's abortion rate is ludicrous.
The homicide rate per 100,000 persons is twice as high in the US as it is in Romania- does that reflect on the education level of the clergy in the US?
( Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita )
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« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2007, 09:14:45 AM »

Perhaps not a reflection on the 'level" of education, ozgeorge, but certainly the 'content' of what is being taught. Do we really know all the factors the Church in Romania is facing in recovery?
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« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2007, 05:24:30 PM »

Quote
Two things, brother. 1) Preventing abortions (killing babies) is NOT a political objective. It is a moral objective. All Orthodox Christians should be on board with this. We, Orthodox Christians, have not only an imperative to do so, we have a command from our savior to do so. I back this up with the fact that we, Orthodox Christians, have an organization (of whose name just now escapes me) formed to combat this crime against humanity. 2) I'm surprised that a 70% mortality rate due to aborted babies seems to hardly raise many of y'alls eyebrows. "But the Church suffered under Communism for a really long time!" Yes, we know. We've all read the accounts. And while I would be a fool to discount that part of their history, that doesn't excuse anyone now. Obstacles suck, but they also provide us with greater wisdom and a stronger will to succeed. And you know what? This is way more than just an Orthodox problem. Here in the Good Ol' Morally Bankrupt U S of A, even WE don't have that big of a percentage rate!

Jibrahil,

You make another excellent point as usual.
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« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2007, 05:41:39 PM »

Every abortion happens to a real live woman.  It's not something that is done for a lark.

Here is a question to keep in the forefront: 

Why is an individual woman having this done?  What are the circumstances in her life? 

May I recommend a book:  "Real Choices" by Frederica Mathewes-Green.  She talked to women who had had abortions, and let them speak on their own.

There are the babies AND the mothers/women.

Ebor
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« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2007, 05:41:52 PM »

To all of my Romanian brothers and sisters-
 I sincerely apologize to each and everyone of you if my words hurt or offended you. That was never my intentions. I realize that my statements were probably overly simplistic in their outlook and criticisms, and I also realize that it may have seemed as if I was picking on Romania (throwing stones as some of you interpreted it).  
 I know many Romanians and am even dating a girl from Romania. I enjoy studying about Romania and am trying to learn the language. But all this in no way implies that I'm anywhere near an expert on Romania or the Church in Romania. But, by the same token, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't keep silent when I read something disturbing. And it doesn't mean that I cannot give constructive criticism. I am not on some soapbox yelling at Romania's clergy to uphold me as an example. Far from it. I simply stated that Romania's clergy, if in fact the figures presented are correct, can do a far better job. I did not say that they aren't trying. I did not say that they don't care. As Orthodox Christians, regardless of what country we live in, we have a right to expect our priests and bishops are doing their utmost for their flock. Being vested doesn't get you a free pass. That means that you, as Romanians, have a right to demand the same from American clergy.
 Again, I deeply regret having hurt any of you for my poorly chosen words. I pray that you can accept my apologies.

 In Christ,
 Gabriel  
 
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« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2007, 05:55:13 PM »

Quote
You might be pleased to know that the number of abortions is dropping:
http://www.primulpas.ro.org/avortul/statistici.html

The statistics that you got had numbers from the beggining of the 90's when there was a an abortion boom.
The reasons behind these numbers where the facts that during the communist era, Ceausescu thought "the more, the marryier", so outlawed abortions; and the one that you couldn't find contraceptives. Only in the mid 90's condoms could be found on a large scale in Romania. As a result many women died because of complications from illegal abortions. The government after 1990 considered it inhumane so the abortions were legal again. They probably considered a better approach to kill the babies rather than to kill the mothers...
Of course, abortions are still a major problem.
A very good (Romanian) article can be found here:
http://www.hotnews.ro/articol_17511-Un-sfert-de-milion-de-avorturi-pe-an.htm

But I didn't want to post because of that. I wanted to post because some started to throw stones at the Romanian Orthodox Church.
You have no right to accuse the Orthodox Church for the abortions.
The stance on the abortions can be found right on the official site of the Romanian Patriarchate:
http://www.patriarhia.ro/Site/Comisii/bioetica.html

There are a number of Orthodox organisations that deal with abortions:
http://www.sfintii-arhangheli.ro/

There are many reasons for such a big number of abortions:
-poverty: no money for contraceptives; ignorance because of no access to information, etc.
-lack of Christian life. Now, at a first glance, some may consider that this is the the fault of the church.
The fault of the church is the lack of cathehesis. But, even those who are Orthodox, but don't know much of the faith, know it's a sin. They are either atheists who come from former communist families or Orthodox who know that what they do it's a sin, but they still do it. So what can the Church do? Of course, there is always room for improvement. Maybe a more direct aproach would help. But to say that the Romanian Orthodox Church has failed her people because of this is too much.
-western propaganda. I'm reffering to the whole emphasis on SEX that came from the western world after 1990 (and especially from US). Now you can see on TV (at hours that are accessible for children) shows that treat (for example) the relationship between stress and women's sex life. 99% of the movies have at least a sexual scene in it. The teen magazines write about how normal masturbation is. Playboy, Penthouse and simmilar magazines exacerbate the imagination of men. The highschool teen consider nowadays that if you are a virgin at 16, then you are a looser. Sex is considered a basic need, just like food.
Now, if this came in the 1930's, it would have been a different story. But exposed to it right after 50 years of atheist propaganda.... And please, don't compare the situation in Poland and Czech Republic to that in Romania and Russia. The communist regime there wasn't that harsh.
As a distinction, the "sexual revolution" didn't occur yet in Russia (or not at a such a large scale) because they were completely against Americans and all that came from them.

I'm not implying that Americans are bad. Most of the ones I know are very nice people. But, unfortunately, the good parts came along with the bad parts. And evil travels faster.

A good Christian life would protect us from all of these. But that is hard to accomplish. Even in 20 years. Not when Christianity is old fashioned. Now it's the "live life to the extreme" trend. When they see an Orthodox service on TV, they change the channel. But when the spicy aspects of the sexual life of some "celebrity" is on TV, they turn the volume up.

So, instead of throwing stones, maybe you should pray for us, the sinners.

Ma2000,

If you go back and re-read our posts, you will find that we have a vested interest and great love for the Romanian Orthodox church and we want nothing but the best for it and the people of Romania. Pointing out a problem and suggesting a solution is not "throwing stones" frate. Also, we all know the official stance of the church on abortion. That point is not being argued. What we are suggesting is that he clergy step up on this issue. Whenever there is a huge moral issue the masses are failing in, it is up to the church to address these issues and instruct the faithful on how to overcome these problems (I think the Romanian church also needs to start addressing fornication and adultery, but that is for a different thread). 

We also pointed out that the high abortion rate is not the church's fault. We addressed poverty, lack of education, etc... What we are saying is that the Church could make a BIG difference if it addressed the issue and instructed the people more intensely on this.

You point out that there are Orthodox who do this and know it is a sin yet continue to do it anyway, yet you ask what can the church do? The shepherds can and should do something about it. That is what they are there for. I'm pretty sure if my wife had an abortion, our priest would discipline us. (Discipline is of course for the correction of a behavior and the healing of our souls, not a punishment). Romania needs more priests like Elder Cleopa.

Quote
I'm not implying that Americans are bad.


Good, I would hope not.  Wink

Quote
So, instead of throwing stones, maybe you should pray for us, the sinners.

Like I said in a prior post, I pray for Romania every day. No need to get offended frate.
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« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2007, 05:57:19 PM »

I am curious to hear some words of wisdom from The Nacho.
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« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2007, 06:34:06 PM »

I am curious to hear some words of wisdom from The Nacho.
He had an abortion? Why?! He could have made millions from the tabloids!
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« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2007, 06:39:02 PM »

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He had an abortion? Why?! He could have made millions from the tabloids!

I said the wisdom from the Nacho, not the foolishness of ytterbiumanalyst  Cheesy
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« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2007, 07:10:57 PM »

Romania needs more priests like Elder Cleopa.
 

Good, I would hope not.  Wink

Like I said in a prior post, I pray for Romania every day. No need to get offended frate.

You keeping saying this as if holy Elders grow on trees.  EVERY country could use more Elders like Elder Cleopa...but you also say this as if elders are the people for every single position.
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« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2007, 10:39:51 PM »

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ou keeping saying this as if holy Elders grow on trees.  EVERY country could use more Elders like Elder Cleopa...but you also say this as if elders are the people for every single position.

Me thinks those closer in achieving Theosis would be wonderful in clerical positions.
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« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2007, 10:42:13 PM »

Me thinks those closer in achieving Theosis would be wonderful in clerical positions.

Methinks those deemed worthy by the Holy Episcopacy are even better in clerical positions...theosis aside.
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« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2007, 09:25:22 AM »

Portions of this thread have been split off into another topic:
Romanian Church & State Security

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12532.0.html

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« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2007, 09:40:10 PM »

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Methinks those deemed worthy by the Holy Episcopacy are even better in clerical positions...theosis aside.

Me Thinks those who have achieved theosis are more attuned to the will of God.
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« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2007, 10:01:02 PM »

Me Thinks those who have achieved theosis are more attuned to the will of God.

Methinks that such a determination is subjective and often given to those who share one's religious philosophy.
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« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2007, 10:51:18 PM »

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Methinks that such a determination is subjective and often given to those who share one's religious philosophy.

Methinks theosis is not a mere religious philosophy. Those who achieve it are filled with the grace of God and experience it, and it becomes apparent to those who are around these people. Remember, there have been heretics who have held clerical positions in the church. Men who are attuned to the Holy Spirit make better clergy.
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« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2007, 10:52:55 PM »

Methinks that such a determination is subjective and often given to those who share one's religious philosophy.
I don't think it's as subjective as one might think. One criteria is anyone who goes against our morally bankrupt societal norms. It sure ain't someone collaborating with communist thugs.
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