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Author Topic: Abortion again?  (Read 31223 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #225 on: August 22, 2007, 12:08:36 AM »

Yes, Christ and John both said that. And if you read my prior post, I made the differentiation. Jesus knew that the next step was actual fulfillment of these acts. It is best to correct them before they get to that point. There are serious reprecutions for committing the physical act. It is one thing to hate your brother (which is obviously horrible) it is another to actually kill him. Do you think it is the same thing? Are there not worse affects for every one involved if such a deed is actually carried out? If you committed adultery/fornication or murder and went to confession, don't you think the penance for physically doing the deed would be different than the thoughts? When they are thoughts, they are able to be corrected before they physically manifest.

I am saying that the sins are one and the same...Christ taught this, John saw this, this is why the Apostle said 'Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer'. He is not almost a murderer, or about to become a murderer, or in danger of being a murderer...he IS a murderer. The sin of murder is not so much the taking of your neighbour's life, but the hatred of your neighbour. As our Lord taught, all commandments and all law are contained in the two commandments to Love God and to Love your neighbour. If you violate these commandments in thought, word, or deed you have committed an equally grave sin. To say that those who hate are less evil than those who kill, or those who lust are better than those who fornicate is, generally speaking, simply an act of pride, of a desire to place oneself above ones neighbour. As far as repentance goes, if you confess your sins but continue to commit them, what do you gain? How are you any better than he who does not confess?

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I hold to the church's teaching of abortion. Those who disagree with the church are simply unorthodox in their view. It is not an insult, it is simply as it is.

You establish your personal opinion as eternal dogma, set yourself up as a judge over bishops, and then condemn me for not measuring up to your standards? This seems to me to be more pontificating than discussing.
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« Reply #226 on: August 22, 2007, 12:10:04 AM »

Standard Orthodox practice teaches that abortion and fornication are wrong. Plane and simple. This will never change. I believe when someone adopts a religion, you come to that religion on its terms. I did not come to Holy Orthodoxy trying to reform it or change it. I want Christ to change me. When the church speaks, it speaks with the voice of Christ.

Neither did I...but then the Church reformed me.
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« Reply #227 on: August 22, 2007, 12:15:47 AM »

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I am saying that the sins are one and the same...Christ taught this, John saw this, this is why the Apostle said 'Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer'. He is not almost a murderer, or about to become a murderer, or in danger of being a murderer...he IS a murderer. The sin of murder is not so much the taking of your neighbour's life, but the hatred of your neighbour. As our Lord taught, all commandments and all law are contained in the two commandments to Love God and to Love your neighbour. If you violate these commandments in thought, word, or deed you have committed an equally grave sin. To say that those who hate are less evil than those who kill, or those who lust are better than those who fornicate is, generally speaking, simply an act of pride, of a desire to place oneself above ones neighbour. As far as repentance goes, if you confess your sins but continue to commit them, what do you gain? How are you any better than he who does not confess?

So I guess that hatred and murder are the same thing? Thinking and doing have the exact same consequences? I don't think so. This is not the Orthodox view. I already made my point. You can't tell me that having hateful thoughts (which I will repeat again is sinful and wrong) and actually killing someone are the same thing and create the same result. I don't hardly think so. According to the same logic, I could give alms with my heart but not actually do it, or I could show love with my heart but not actually manifest it. This sounds like protestantism/gnosticism to me. The spirit is good, the flesh is evil; it only matters what is done in your heart, not physically. Sorry GIC, your views are outside of the church.



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« Reply #228 on: August 22, 2007, 12:18:40 AM »

GiC, now's not the time to backpeddle. Since I've been a member of this forum, roughly 80%-85% of your posts have been representative of a liberal, secular opinion rather than representative of the Holy Traditions of the Orhodox Church. I recognize that you're probably being honest about how you see things, and I appreciate that. But all that aside, it's also apparent that you have almost a mocking quality about your posts. Sometimes it's quite humorous, while other times, it's very...quizical. You're free to believe however you see fit. Far be it from me to dictate what you do or don't believe.

I try to keep the atmosphere as light as possible, none of these issues are worth getting all worked up over. Wink

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But when you make a statement that runs contrary to what Church doctrine and Traditon tells us, and on an Orthodox forum no less, the Church must rise up and correct you. We've tried to do this over and over and over. But since you still cling to your beliefs, this can be interpreted in no other way other than you are, indeed, judging yourself as more knowledgable than the Church you claim to be a member of.

Perhaps there is another possibility you have overlooked. Perhaps it is just that I do not see the other members of this forum as being any more authorities on Orthodox doctrine and tradition than I? Perhaps I do not seem them as being in a place to 'correct' me? Perhaps I am of the opinion that this role belongs to my Bishop, who, it should be noted, is the only Bishop I have thus far quoted in the context of this thread? I see a posters on this board saying one thing, and I see my Bishop saying something quite different...yet you are surprised when I hold the latter as being a greater standard of Orthodoxy than the former? No offence intended, but you don't have quite as fancy of a hat. Wink

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You've made some good points, friend, and I've appreciated your honesty and viewpoints. But, no matter how much I like you, you're still wrong when it comes to the abortion issue.

You are, of course, welcome to that opinion. But it is my personal opinion that you are viewing the issue too simplistically.
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« Reply #229 on: August 22, 2007, 12:20:51 AM »

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Neither did I...but then the Church reformed me.

The church reformed you to go against her teachings?
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« Reply #230 on: August 22, 2007, 12:21:53 AM »



My apologies, is this discussion reserved for those without sin? If so I must excuse myself.


That's not what PtA was saying and you know it. Please don't re-direct or side-step the real point.
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« Reply #231 on: August 22, 2007, 12:25:17 AM »

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That's not what PtA was saying and you know it. Please don't re-direct or side-step the real point.

Gabriel,

Thank you for staying on topic.
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« Reply #232 on: August 22, 2007, 12:26:45 AM »

As for the details of my spritual life, or lack thereof: the entire point of this discussion has been about problems I see in what some would try to impose as 'standard Orthodox praxis'...yet, you wish to discount my argument based on the fact that I take issue with these interpretations. Doesn't this argument seem a bit circular to you?
No, considering that I'm not discounting your argument based on your disagreement with any interpretations of anything.  I just believe that one's intellectual reasoning and rhetoric on what is or should be Orthodox rings hollow when it does not grow out of a devotion to living the Orthodox life of prayer, fasting (when appropriate), and almsgiving.  I'm not claiming that one has to be without sin to proclaim an Orthodox position, but one should at least try to live the life prescribed by the Church as beneficial for our salvation before setting himself up as a critic of what we advocate.
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« Reply #233 on: August 22, 2007, 12:29:22 AM »

So I guess that hatred and murder are the same thing?

Yes, that's what I've been saying.

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Thinking and doing have the exact same consequences? I don't think so.

Spiritually, yes, eternally, yes.

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This is not the Orthodox view. I already made my point.

Ummm, we're back to pontificating again.

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You can't tell me that having hateful thoughts (which I will repeat again is sinful and wrong) and actually killing someone are the same thing and create the same result.

Same result? I said it's the same sin, one is no worse than the other...they may have different temporal consequences, but spiritually speaking, they are one and the same.

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I don't hardly think so. According to the same logic, I could give alms with my heart but not actually do it, or I could show love with my heart but not actually manifest it.

Yes, you can love your neighbour without giving alms...and by the same token you can give alms and yet hate your neighbour. The former is virtue, the latter is sin (surely Christ had enough stories about the pharisees to make this clear). And while most who truly love their neighbour in there heart will manifest it in their deeds, I can think of a few cases where one may truly love their neighbour in their heart and yet not be able to manifest it in deed.

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This sounds like protestantism/gnosticism to me. The spirit is good, the flesh is evil; it only matters what is done in your heart, not physically.

Come again? I was just arguing that sex, even outside of marriage, is not inherently bad...it is the corruption of the heart through lust that is inherently evil...certainly not spirit good, matter evil gnosticism. If you're going try to pin an ancient heresy on me for this particular case why not try docetism; it's not a perfect fit, but works much better than gnosticism.

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Sorry GIC, your views are outside of the church.

Well, if you have to enter into a theological argument for a position outside of the Church, Jesus Christ and St. John the Theologian are pretty good allies to have.
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« Reply #234 on: August 22, 2007, 12:29:32 AM »

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No, considering that I'm not discounting your argument based on your disagreement with any interpretations of anything.  I just believe that one's intellectual reasoning and rhetoric on what is or should be Orthodox rings hollow when it does not grow out of a devotion to living the Orthodox life of prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.  I'm not claiming that one has to be without sin to proclaim an Orthodox position, but one should at least try to live the life prescribed by the Church as beneficial for our salvation before setting himself up as a critic of what we advocate.

Well said again Peter
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« Reply #235 on: August 22, 2007, 12:31:28 AM »

No, considering that I'm not discounting your argument based on your disagreement with any interpretations of anything.  I just believe that one's intellectual reasoning and rhetoric on what is or should be Orthodox rings hollow when it does not grow out of a devotion to living the Orthodox life of prayer, fasting (when appropriate), and almsgiving.  I'm not claiming that one has to be without sin to proclaim an Orthodox position, but one should at least try to live the life prescribed by the Church as beneficial for our salvation before setting himself up as a critic of what we advocate.

So my argument is of less significance because of my personal reputation?
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« Reply #236 on: August 22, 2007, 12:33:13 AM »

The church reformed you to go against her teachings?

The Church reformed me by helping me see beyond dogma to theology, beyond law to freedom.
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« Reply #237 on: August 22, 2007, 12:34:40 AM »

I try to keep the atmosphere as light as possible, none of these issues are worth getting all worked up over. Wink

Perhaps there is another possibility you have overlooked. Perhaps it is just that I do not see the other members of this forum as being any more authorities on Orthodox doctrine and tradition than I? Perhaps I do not seem them as being in a place to 'correct' me? Perhaps I am of the opinion that this role belongs to my Bishop, who, it should be noted, is the only Bishop I have thus far quoted in the context of this thread? I see a posters on this board saying one thing, and I see my Bishop saying something quite different...yet you are surprised when I hold the latter as being a greater standard of Orthodoxy than the former? No offence intended, but you don't have quite as fancy of a hat. Wink

You are, of course, welcome to that opinion. But it is my personal opinion that you are viewing the issue too simplistically.
Hey! Don't make this personal by bringing up my hats. Wink I don't think anyone has gotten out of hand here, but it is a very serious subject. And I think if you were to go back and re-read my posts, I've not only presented the issue in a very balanced and loving manner, I've presented them possibly as only one who has gone through an abortion can.
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« Reply #238 on: August 22, 2007, 12:43:01 AM »

So my argument is of less significance because of my personal reputation?
GiC, again, that's not what he is saying. When a person argues from a certain perspective to make a point and gain credibility, and then turns around and dismisses what s/he just said, you lose credibility *and* anything else the person says from there on out tends to ring hollow. So when you quote canon and dogma time and again only to mock those who genuinely believe them, people at first are left wondering what your point is. Soon they catch on and call you on it.
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« Reply #239 on: August 22, 2007, 12:44:17 AM »

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Yes, you can love your neighbour without giving alms...and by the same token you can give alms and yet hate your neighbour. The former is virtue, the latter is sin (surely Christ had enough stories about the pharisees to make this clear). And while most who truly love their neighbour in there heart will manifest it in their deeds, I can think of a few cases where one may truly love their neighbour in their heart and yet not be able to manifest it in deed.

Christ was critiquing the Pharisees, not because of their works, but because their hearts were not in the right place. It is spiritual and physical. Protestants and gnostics tend to look at one or the other. It is both. Faith vs works is a perfect example. Protestants say faith, the pharisees say works. Orthodox say both. I would love to see you argue these points with a holy elder.

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Thinking and doing have the exact same consequences? I don't think so.

Spiritually, yes, eternally, yes.

When sin is committed physically it affects more people than if it is merely mental. Why then would a priest or a bishop be defrocked if they committed adultery/fornication? They wouldn't be defrocked for having lustful thoughts. To you it is one and the same and makes no difference. The church thinks otherwise.

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Same result? I said it's the same sin, one is no worse than the other...they may have different temporal consequences, but spiritually speaking, they are one and the same.

Murder is worse than lying . They are both bad and separate us from God, but there are different consequences for what we do. Stealing a loaf of bread is not as bad as raping a school girl. I think the church would take issue with your theology. I used to hear the same argument back when I was a protestant.

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Come again? I was just arguing that sex, even outside of marriage, is not inherently bad...it is the corruption of the heart through lust that is inherently evil...certainly not spirit good, matter evil gnosticism. If you're going try to pin an ancient heresy on me for this particular case why not try docetism; it's not a perfect fit, but works much better than gnosticism.

Actually, the church, which is the voice of Christ, teaches that sex outside of marriage is inherently bad. Are there any saints who can back up your contention? Do you think the church would sanction anyone sleeping around? Give me a break.

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Well, if you have to enter into a theological argument for a position outside of the Church, Jesus Christ and St. John the Theologian are pretty good allies to have.

I believe the church is "the pillar and foundation of truth", and "is guided in all things by the Holy Spirit". So yes, I believe the church, and I believe Jesus speaks through the church. The church is the body of Christ. BTW-Jesus is the head of the church and St. John the theologian are part of the church. If you argue against the church then you are arguing against Jesus.
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« Reply #240 on: August 22, 2007, 01:00:56 AM »

you're trying to dogmatize a scientific issue, which is very dangerous, Rome has yet to live down her persecution of the great Astronomers.

Watching a little too much History Channel, are we?
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« Reply #241 on: August 22, 2007, 01:23:48 AM »

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Watching a little too much History Channel, are we?

LOL  Cheesy
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« Reply #242 on: August 22, 2007, 03:12:09 AM »

Dang, 17 pages of going back and forth on the abortion issue? It should have ended at the first or second page with everyone agreeing that abortion is murder. The Church has clearly established this and we must do everything we can to fight back against this evil modern culture that allows this genocide to continue. It obviously doesn't help when we have people in our own camp against us when it comes to such important cultural changing issues. 

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The Church reformed me by helping me see beyond dogma to theology, beyond law to freedom.

GIC, besides the Church just 'reforming' you from an intellectual perspective; there's also spiritual enlightenment that's just as important and it could drastically change one's outlook. The greatest example would be the Apostle Paul. I really think you should try living the faith more actively and opening yourself up spiritually for God to work in your life rather than approaching everything with your great intellectual abilities and reasoning. Maybe a visit to a monastery for a week would be a good start and who knows, maybe an elder in the faith could prophesy or speak something very postive that you know in your soul is the truth. It just a suggestion, it has worked for countless others.
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« Reply #243 on: August 22, 2007, 03:35:20 AM »

So my argument is of less significance because of my personal reputation?
You have said so.
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« Reply #244 on: August 22, 2007, 10:06:05 AM »

Dang, 17 pages of going back and forth on the abortion issue? It should have ended at the first or second page with everyone agreeing that abortion is murder. The Church has clearly established this and we must do everything we can to fight back against this evil modern culture that allows this genocide to continue. It obviously doesn't help when we have people in our own camp against us when it comes to such important cultural changing issues. 

Tell me about it, isn't it terrible when everyone doesn't simply submit to your pontifications? Wink

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GIC, besides the Church just 'reforming' you from an intellectual perspective; there's also spiritual enlightenment that's just as important and it could drastically change one's outlook.

Oh, rest assured, my personal 'reformation' was quite spiritual...spiritually I am no longer the same person I was when I came to Orthodoxy, by any stretch of the imagination.

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The greatest example would be the Apostle Paul. I really think you should try living the faith more actively and opening yourself up spiritually for God to work in your life rather than approaching everything with your great intellectual abilities and reasoning. Maybe a visit to a monastery for a week would be a good start and who knows, maybe an elder in the faith could prophesy or speak something very postive that you know in your soul is the truth. It just a suggestion, it has worked for countless others.

I do not discount the significance of spirituality, but I disagree with where you suggest searching for it. I don't believe that the great spiritual leaders of the modern Church were monastic elders on Mt. Athos, etc., etc...rather I believe the great spiritual leadership has been in the great Patriarchs of the 20th Century such as Meletios of Constantinople who formally abandoned a policy of exclusivism, working to improve relations with other Christians, in His All-Holiness' actions are seen humility, reason, and pastoral sensibilities. Likewise, I hold in high esteem His All-Holiness Athenagoras, of blessed memory, who worked to end 1000 years of petty dispute and further improved our relationship with our brethren in the West. These men were real spiritual leaders and real pastoral leaders, they made real change for the better, they had a vision for the Church that exceeded that of a national church in a few small East European states, but rather extended to a Church of the world.
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« Reply #245 on: August 22, 2007, 10:09:04 AM »

You have said so.

Oh, I was just summarizing what you had said and, apparently, I summarized it correctly. Hmmm.... Grin
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« Reply #246 on: August 22, 2007, 11:10:22 AM »

GiC, you are baiting again, I see.

..."modern Church"...yeah, right.
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« Reply #247 on: August 22, 2007, 12:06:01 PM »

Dang, 17 pages of going back and forth on the abortion issue? It should have ended at the first or second page with everyone agreeing that abortion is murder. The Church has clearly established this and we must do everything we can to fight back against this evil modern culture that allows this genocide to continue. It obviously doesn't help when we have people in our own camp against us when it comes to such important cultural changing issues. 


Nacho,

I think we all agree abortion is murder except for one Mr. GIC.  Undecided  Tamara
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« Reply #248 on: August 22, 2007, 12:43:33 PM »

I hold to the church's teaching of abortion. Those who disagree with the church are simply unorthodox in their view. It is not an insult, it is simply as it is.
You establish your personal opinion as eternal dogma, set yourself up as a judge over bishops, and then condemn me for not measuring up to your standards? This seems to me to be more pontificating than discussing.


This is not the Orthodox view. I already made my point.
Ummm, we're back to pontificating again.


Dang, 17 pages of going back and forth on the abortion issue? It should have ended at the first or second page with everyone agreeing that abortion is murder. The Church has clearly established this and we must do everything we can to fight back against this evil modern culture that allows this genocide to continue. It obviously doesn't help when we have people in our own camp against us when it comes to such important cultural changing issues. 
Tell me about it, isn't it terrible when everyone doesn't simply submit to your pontifications? Wink

As you were growing up, did anyone tell you the story of the little black pot?
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« Reply #249 on: August 22, 2007, 01:07:44 PM »

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Quote from: greekischristian on Today at 12:08:36 am
Quote from: Orthodox Bagpiper on Yesterday at 11:55:04 pm
I hold to the church's teaching of abortion. Those who disagree with the church are simply unorthodox in their view. It is not an insult, it is simply as it is.
You establish your personal opinion as eternal dogma, set yourself up as a judge over bishops, and then condemn me for not measuring up to your standards? This seems to me to be more pontificating than discussing.


Quote from: greekischristian on Today at 12:29:22 am
Quote from: Orthodox Bagpiper on Today at 12:15:47 am
This is not the Orthodox view. I already made my point.
Ummm, we're back to pontificating again.


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Quote from: Nacho on Today at 03:12:09 am
Dang, 17 pages of going back and forth on the abortion issue? It should have ended at the first or second page with everyone agreeing that abortion is murder. The Church has clearly established this and we must do everything we can to fight back against this evil modern culture that allows this genocide to continue. It obviously doesn't help when we have people in our own camp against us when it comes to such important cultural changing issues.
Tell me about it, isn't it terrible when everyone doesn't simply submit to your pontifications? Wink

As you were growing up, did anyone tell you the story of the little black pot?

LOL  Cheesy  Good one Pete!
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« Reply #250 on: August 22, 2007, 02:16:30 PM »

Tell me about it, isn't it terrible when everyone doesn't simply submit to your pontifications? Wink

As you were growing up, did anyone tell you the story of the little black pot?

Hey, I was speaking from experience here. Wink
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« Reply #251 on: August 22, 2007, 02:17:30 PM »

GiC, you are baiting again, I see.

..."modern Church"...yeah, right.

Depends in your perspective...believe it or not, I'm not the only person in the Church to hold these patriarchs in high esteem.
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« Reply #252 on: August 22, 2007, 03:02:30 PM »

*blows referee whistle*

OB and GIC, you both have some good things to say here. Yes, hatred of one's brother is murder. They are one and the same; Christ himself said that. Also, thinking of doing something and yet not doing it is meaningless. We must actually give to the poor, not merely understand their problems.

As far as the debate of degrees of sin: here goes. All sin is completely evil. There is no sin which is any less evil than any other sin. All sin separates us from God; what consequence could be any worse than that? Now, temporally speaking: yes, some sins have greater consequences than other sins. Selfishly misspending a small amount of money can make you miss a utility payment, which may affect your credit or leave you without electricity. Selfishly misspending a large amount of money by gambling can make your family go without things like food and clothing for long periods of time and can even destroy a marriage. Sin is sin is sin is sin, and whatever sin we commit condemns us to hell. But, it is true, the temporal consequences can have a lesser or greater extent depending on the specific sin. This is the reason why punishments for some crimes (murder, child molestation, etc) are more severe than for others (traffic violations, health code violations, etc).
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« Reply #253 on: August 22, 2007, 03:56:35 PM »

Quote
*blows referee whistle*

OB and GIC, you both have some good things to say here. Yes, hatred of one's brother is murder. They are one and the same; Christ himself said that. Also, thinking of doing something and yet not doing it is meaningless. We must actually give to the poor, not merely understand their problems.

As far as the debate of degrees of sin: here goes. All sin is completely evil. There is no sin which is any less evil than any other sin. All sin separates us from God; what consequence could be any worse than that? Now, temporally speaking: yes, some sins have greater consequences than other sins. Selfishly misspending a small amount of money can make you miss a utility payment, which may affect your credit or leave you without electricity. Selfishly misspending a large amount of money by gambling can make your family go without things like food and clothing for long periods of time and can even destroy a marriage. Sin is sin is sin is sin, and whatever sin we commit condemns us to hell. But, it is true, the temporal consequences can have a lesser or greater extent depending on the specific sin. This is the reason why punishments for some crimes (murder, child molestation, etc) are more severe than for others (traffic violations, health code violations, etc).

You have just simply rephrased what I have been saying Y.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #254 on: August 22, 2007, 05:34:18 PM »

So I guess that hatred and murder are the same thing? Thinking and doing have the exact same consequences? I don't think so. This is not the Orthodox view. I already made my point. You can't tell me that having hateful thoughts (which I will repeat again is sinful and wrong) and actually killing someone are the same thing and create the same result. I don't hardly think so....Sorry GIC, your views are outside of the church.
That's what you said before, when you disagreed with GIC. You stated that hatred and murder are not the same thing. I stated that Christ said they are. They do indeed create the same result, death. That's not a mere restatement.
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« Reply #255 on: August 22, 2007, 07:12:07 PM »

Quote
That's what you said before, when you disagreed with GIC. You stated that hatred and murder are not the same thing. I stated that Christ said they are. They do indeed create the same result, death. That's not a mere restatement.

I said they both separate us from God yet have different consequences. The root problem is the same; however, there are obviously different consequences and results from acting upon the thoughts. I do think it is worse to rape a child then steal a loaf of bread; however, I think the consequences are different for both; moreover, more people are usually affected by the physical act of the sin.

I would like to refer you to page 61 in Anthony Coniaris's book "Confronting and controlling thoughts. He says-

"During the fifth century certain very austere Christian zealots insisted that to consent to a logismos is the same as if one had already committed the sin. To convince these zealots that there was still a distance between consenting to a sin in one's heart and actually committing it, St. John Chrysostom invited them to prepare the most tempting dishes. He notified his guests not to eat during the day so as to be able to enjoy all the delicious food at the dinner. The guests arrived with a ravenous appetite. The servants began loading the table with sumptuous dishes. Before the meal, Chrysostom invited his deacon to read from the Psalms. The deacon read and kept on reading. Twenty, thirty, forty minutes, with no end in sight. The guests agonized. They wondered if they would ever begin to eat. They were salivating with an overpowering desire to eat. Finally the prayer concluded. Then, Chrysostom turned and told his guests, "Now you may leave for home." They were shocked. "Why do you look so puzzled?" he asked them. "Didn't you see the food? Didn't you covet the food with great desire?" "Yes" they replied. "Well, then it was as if you ate the food," said Chrysostom. Through this practical joke, the great saint was able to convince these austere zealots that there is a difference between consenting to sin in one's heart and actually committing it. It is still possible, even in the late state of consent, not to proceed to the last stage, from which a person can no longer retreat."


This is the point I have been making.
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« Reply #256 on: August 22, 2007, 08:41:08 PM »


I would like to refer you to page 61 in Anthony Coniaris's book "Confronting and controlling thoughts. He says-

"During the fifth century certain very austere Christian zealots insisted that to consent to a logismos is the same as if one had already committed the sin. To convince these zealots that there was still a distance between consenting to a sin in one's heart and actually committing it, St. John Chrysostom invited them to prepare the most tempting dishes. He notified his guests not to eat during the day so as to be able to enjoy all the delicious food at the dinner. The guests arrived with a ravenous appetite. The servants began loading the table with sumptuous dishes. Before the meal, Chrysostom invited his deacon to read from the Psalms. The deacon read and kept on reading. Twenty, thirty, forty minutes, with no end in sight. The guests agonized. They wondered if they would ever begin to eat. They were salivating with an overpowering desire to eat. Finally the prayer concluded. Then, Chrysostom turned and told his guests, "Now you may leave for home." They were shocked. "Why do you look so puzzled?" he asked them. "Didn't you see the food? Didn't you covet the food with great desire?" "Yes" they replied. "Well, then it was as if you ate the food," said Chrysostom. Through this practical joke, the great saint was able to convince these austere zealots that there is a difference between consenting to sin in one's heart and actually committing it. It is still possible, even in the late state of consent, not to proceed to the last stage, from which a person can no longer retreat."


This is the point I have been making.
What a great quote, OB.

That's what you said before, when you disagreed with GIC. You stated that hatred and murder are not the same thing. I stated that Christ said they are. They do indeed create the same result, death. That's not a mere restatement.
Y, you may find the book The Mountain of Silence really helpful in explaining this particular point. Father Maximos explains it this way. First a thought comes to you. Second, you enter into a dialogue with the thought. That is, you begin entertaining it. Third, you begin to actually desire to bring the thought out and follow thru with it. At this point, it will be almost impossible to NOT follow through with the sin. However, as Father Maximos says, no sin has been committed *yet* and that there is still the possibility of not sinning. I think the quote that OB shared with us beautifully demonstrates this. One other quote that Father Maximos says in the book, one that I think is useful here, is that without the testimonies of the Saints and Church Tradition, the Bible would be an empty letter. That is, when studying the Bible (which is incumbent upon all of us), we cannot always take it at face value; we have to study it through the lens of Tradition.
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« Reply #257 on: August 23, 2007, 03:18:35 AM »

Quote
That's what you said before, when you disagreed with GIC. You stated that hatred and murder are not the same thing. I stated that Christ said they are. They do indeed create the same result, death. That's not a mere restatement. 


Actually, sorry to bust you son but this is an oversimplification of the matter at hand. Of course Christ said they are one in the same (context, context, context!), but there are real repercussions to acting sin out. The dichotomy is sin on one level affects the individual, but once it fully manifests there could be consequences for others whom that sin could effect as well. The full manifestation is much worse at this point.
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« Reply #258 on: August 23, 2007, 05:46:02 PM »

Okay, I see y'all's point. I think we're all in agreement, really. We may just be emphasizing different things.

What a great practical joke. It's good to see a saint having fun and yet proving a valuable point as well.
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« Reply #259 on: August 23, 2007, 08:57:06 PM »

^^So you stand corrected again?   Grin
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« Reply #260 on: August 23, 2007, 10:16:04 PM »

^ Actually, at the moment I'm sitting. Grin
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« Reply #261 on: August 24, 2007, 02:39:38 AM »

^^Don't make me bring the Nacho hammer down son..... Grin
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« Reply #262 on: August 24, 2007, 07:08:19 PM »

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Don't make me bring the Nacho hammer down son..... Grin

Nacho is all about tough love!  Cheesy
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« Reply #263 on: August 27, 2007, 12:06:15 PM »

Since I laid out all of the facts and set everyone straight, I guess we can lay this topic to rest (for the time being). Wink
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« Reply #264 on: August 27, 2007, 03:01:49 PM »

Since I laid out all of the facts and set everyone straight, I guess we can lay this topic to rest (for the time being). Wink

For the time being? Sure...time is on our side Wink
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« Reply #265 on: August 27, 2007, 03:22:04 PM »

The 'dark' side?  Cheesy
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« Reply #266 on: August 27, 2007, 04:44:52 PM »

'You're ALL darksided' Grin
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« Reply #267 on: August 27, 2007, 05:06:27 PM »

Chuckle...
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« Reply #268 on: August 27, 2007, 05:09:19 PM »

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'You're ALL darksided' Grin

GIC, You are a God warrior!
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« Reply #269 on: August 27, 2007, 10:42:22 PM »

Αριστοκλής

It is amazing how on one thread we can be on the same page, yet on another thread we are in different books!
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