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Author Topic: Abortion again?  (Read 30145 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2007, 10:55:12 PM »

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I don't think it's as subjective as one might think. One criteria is anyone who goes against our morally bankrupt societal norms. It sure ain't someone collaborating with communist thugs.

Methinks you make an excellent point Gabriel! Preach it brotha!
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« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2007, 11:13:13 PM »

I don't think it's as subjective as one might think. One criteria is anyone who goes against our morally bankrupt societal norms. It sure ain't someone collaborating with communist thugs.

Subjective political standards for those who are to be regarded as god-like...I rest my case.
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« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2007, 11:22:56 PM »

Methinks theosis is not a mere religious philosophy. Those who achieve it are filled with the grace of God and experience it, and it becomes apparent to those who are around these people. Remember, there have been heretics who have held clerical positions in the church. Men who are attuned to the Holy Spirit make better clergy.

Methinks you are entirely missing the point.  It's not about theosis in this case but skillset.  There is a reason why those saints that were hierarchs were not put there of their own will and even tried to hide in monasteries.  Shall YOU be the one to seek those out and drag them out of their monasteries and put them in office?  Was Elder Cleopa a bishop?
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« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2007, 11:29:01 PM »

Subjective political standards for those who are to be regarded as god-like...I rest my case.
Wow. Saving unborn children is a subjective political standard now? How about adultery? In any case, the members of clergy who are eager to hide their past (whatever that might be), are probably not qualified to lead. You can't very well preach about the Mystery of Repentance while avoiding it yourself. The abortion rate in Romania is, however, going down. That's something we can all be thankful for.
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« Reply #139 on: August 17, 2007, 11:31:58 PM »

Wow. Saving unborn children is a subjective political standard now? How about adultery?

While some may view these as black and white issues, others would (in my opinion correctly) regard them as more complex, and reject black and white answers as excessively simplistic. I would argue that the person most qualified for the Clergy sees the complexities in these issues and, as such, is most capable of responding in the most pastoral manner.

Quote
In any case, the members of clergy who are eager to hide their past (whatever that might be), are probably not qualified to lead. You can't very well preach about the Mystery of Repentance while avoiding it yourself. The abortion rate in Romania is, however, going down. That's something we can all be thankful for.

You assume that they seek to hide their past because they believe they did something wrong; perhaps they acted in the manner that their conscious demands, but such conduct has since become unpopular.
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« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2007, 11:56:20 PM »

While some may view these as black and white issues, others would (in my opinion correctly) regard them as more complex, and reject black and white answers as excessively simplistic. I would argue that the person most qualified for the Clergy sees the complexities in these issues and, as such, is most capable of responding in the most pastoral manner.

You assume that they seek to hide their past because they believe they did something wrong; perhaps they acted in the manner that their conscious demands, but such conduct has since become unpopular.
You do have some good points here, GiC. I realize that an 'either/or' point of view could potentially make a bad situation worse, so thanks for pointing that out. However, the Church is quite clear in regards to abortion, yes? Now, as you pointed out, the approach the priest takes is where discretion and great care are needed. As I pointed out in an earlier post, these young women are more than likely going thru their own personal hells. If they aren't completely numb inside, they're coginizant of what they've done. A finger in their face excommunicating them will destroy them even further. They need to hear that God absolutely loves them and that their lives are not ruined. They are the Prodigal Daughter whom their Father is desparately hurting for. The point I was trying to make, and I had the article that sister Tamara posted, is that if a priest gets called out for something like collaborating with communist thugs, it only makes the situation worse if they try to cover it up or side-step it. Especially if there is irrefutable evidence that the allegations did in fact happen. Yes, they should be allowed to explain the details, and if repentant, they should be forgiven. If they, don't, I question their ability to respond in a pastoral manner.   
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« Reply #141 on: August 18, 2007, 12:35:21 AM »

You do have some good points here, GiC. I realize that an 'either/or' point of view could potentially make a bad situation worse, so thanks for pointing that out. However, the Church is quite clear in regards to abortion, yes?

No, actually, the Church, historically has not been all that clear. Some have condemned it as a violation of a husband or father's right of patria potestas, some believed it a type of ritual uncleanness not too different from menstruation, but willingly brought about, others have condemned it as murder, but many of these same people condemned masturbation as murder. Canonically, it is canonized in a manner comprable to fornication, but not as murder...it is clearly viewed as a lesser offence. Of course, many of these rules came from a time with an abysmal understand of human biology, reproduction, and fetal development. Considering the ignorance of even the most basic science pertaining to these fields, reason should dictate that the usefulness of these patristic and canonical sources is questionable at best.

Quote
Now, as you pointed out, the approach the priest takes is where discretion and great care are needed. As I pointed out in an earlier post, these young women are more than likely going thru their own personal hells. If they aren't completely numb inside, they're coginizant of what they've done. A finger in their face excommunicating them will destroy them even further. They need to hear that God absolutely loves them and that their lives are not ruined. They are the Prodigal Daughter whom their Father is desparately hurting for.

And, yet, you have already given your condemnation; you have not considered mitigating circumstances, you have not analyzed the individual's situation, you have simply given a blanket condemnation...apparently based on the archaic writings of men who lacked even the most fundamental understanding of the human reproductive system.

Quote
The point I was trying to make, and I had the article that sister Tamara posted, is that if a priest gets called out for something like collaborating with communist thugs, it only makes the situation worse if they try to cover it up or side-step it. Especially if there is irrefutable evidence that the allegations did in fact happen. Yes, they should be allowed to explain the details, and if repentant, they should be forgiven. If they, don't, I question their ability to respond in a pastoral manner.   

Again, you are making the assumption ghat 'collaborating with "communist thugs"' is a bad thing. It is quite likely that this was what was best for the Church, that these actions protected the flocks entrusted to these clergymen, and may have even allowed the Church to act as a positive force within the communist government. It is quite likely that no 'repentance' is needed, because the best of all possible courses was already taken...and even if it was not the best course of action, ultimately, one cannot be condemned simply because he acted in the manner that he believed was in the best interest of the Church. I fear there is no canon condemning 'collaborators with communist thugs'.
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« Reply #142 on: August 18, 2007, 12:56:00 AM »

No, actually, the Church, historically has not been all that clear. Some have condemned it as a violation of a husband or father's right of patria potestas, some believed it a type of ritual uncleanness not too different from menstruation, but willingly brought about, others have condemned it as murder, but many of these same people condemned masturbation as murder. Canonically, it is canonized in a manner comprable to fornication, but not as murder...it is clearly viewed as a lesser offence. Of course, many of these rules came from a time with an abysmal understand of human biology, reproduction, and fetal development. Considering the ignorance of even the most basic science pertaining to these fields, reason should dictate that the usefulness of these patristic and canonical sources is questionable at best.
I'd need to see what you're quoting here, but regardless, going by what you posted above, the overwhelming majority seem to be against abortion...for whatever reason, they were against it. Never-the-less, the Church is clear on her stand today. Abortion is seen as a dreadful act that not only kills a fetus, but causes major psychological damage to the woman. Ergo, it's against the Church's teachings.

And, yet, you have already given your condemnation; you have not considered mitigating circumstances, you have not analyzed the individual's situation, you have simply given a blanket condemnation...apparently based on the archaic writings of men who lacked even the most fundamental understanding of the human reproductive system.
Not I, but the Church. Talk to any priest and see how far you get with your understanding.

Again, you are making the assumption ghat 'collaborating with "communist thugs"' is a bad thing. It is quite likely that this was what was best for the Church, that these actions protected the flocks entrusted to these clergymen, and may have even allowed the Church to act as a positive force within the communist government. It is quite likely that no 'repentance' is needed, because the best of all possible courses was already taken...and even if it was not the best course of action, ultimately, one cannot be condemned simply because he acted in the manner that he believed was in the best interest of the Church. I fear there is no canon condemning 'collaborators with communist thugs'.
Canons aren't needed for basic common sense. Hop in bed with the devil and you're gonna get burned. Regardless, you need to go back and re-read my words. Did I not use the word 'if' a few times?
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« Reply #143 on: August 18, 2007, 01:09:44 AM »

I'd need to see what you're quoting here, but regardless, going by what you posted above, the overwhelming majority seem to be against abortion...for whatever reason, they were against it. Never-the-less, the Church is clear on her stand today. Abortion is seen as a dreadful act that not only kills a fetus, but causes major psychological damage to the woman. Ergo, it's against the Church's teachings.

Abortion causes major psychological damage? Depends on the person, I know some who have had abortions and no psychological side effects (there was a statistical study in Sweeden that demonstrated this group to be in the majority). In others, yes, I have seem psychological effects, but I do not believe they are directly related to the abortion, they are rather the result of trying to view their abortion through the lense of some religious ideology...it is ultimately the religion, not the abortion, that is psychologically damaging. As for whether or not it 'kills' the fetus, I believe you must first demonstrate that the fetus is alive in a meaningful sense...that is to say that it capable of surviving independent of its biological connections to the woman carrying it.

Quote
Not I, but the Church. Talk to any priest and see how far you get with your understanding.

Any priest? You give me the choice I am sure I can find a priest more sympathetic to my views than yours. I know of one priest who rebuked, quite strongly, someone who opposed abortion in case of a woman's health being in danger as being 'unorthodox'...he made his political positions quite clear on the issue of abortion as well.

Quote
Canons aren't needed for basic common sense. Hop in bed with the devil and you're gonna get burned. Regardless, you need to go back and re-read my words. Did I not use the word 'if' a few times?

My point is that it does not seem to be basic common sense to which you are appealing, rather it seems that you are appealing to idealism as your standard for these priests.
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« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2007, 01:14:18 AM »

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Abortion causes major psychological damage? Depends on the person, I know some who have had abortions and no psychological side effects (there was a statistical study in Sweeden that demonstrated this group to be in the majority). In others, yes, I have seem psychological effects, but I do not believe they are directly related to the abortion, they are rather the result of trying to view their abortion through the lense of some religious ideology...it is ultimately the religion, not the abortion, that is psychologically damaging. As for whether or not it 'kills' the fetus, I believe you must first demonstrate that the fetus is alive in a meaningful sense...that is to say that it capable of surviving independent of its biological connections to the woman carrying it.

Methinks the Phanar would disagree with you.
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« Reply #145 on: August 18, 2007, 01:22:15 AM »

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Methinks you are entirely missing the point.  It's not about theosis in this case but skillset.  There is a reason why those saints that were hierarchs were not put there of their own will and even tried to hide in monasteries.  Shall YOU be the one to seek those out and drag them out of their monasteries and put them in office?  Was Elder Cleopa a bishop?

Methinks St. John of San Francisco and St. John Chrysostom made excellent bishops. There is no reason why bishops cannot be saintly. Why would you be opposed to having bishops who are full of grace? It seems to me that anyone in any vocation would do better if the voice of God was clear (or clearer) to them. In "The Mountain of Silence", Father Maximos said that the priests and bishops are to be like angels to the people of God because this is how the faithful view them. I would encourage you to read this book; it is awesome.
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« Reply #146 on: August 18, 2007, 01:30:34 AM »

Methinks St. John of San Francisco and St. John Chrysostom made excellent bishops. There is no reason why bishops cannot be saintly. Why would you be opposed to having bishops who are full of grace? It seems to me that anyone in any vocation would do better if the voice of God was clear (or clearer) to them. In "The Mountain of Silence", Father Maximos said that the priests and bishops are to be like angels to the people of God because this is how the faithful view them. I would encourage you to read this book; it is awesome.

I don't believe the objection (or my objection, at least) is that saintly men should not be bishops...my objection, at least, is the standard you use to determine 'saintly'.
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« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2007, 01:31:32 AM »

Methinks the Phanar would disagree with you.

Some bishops in the City may, others may not...however I do not know of any official statement from Constantinople pontificating on the psychological implications of abortion.
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« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2007, 02:12:40 AM »

Methinks St. John of San Francisco and St. John Chrysostom made excellent bishops. There is no reason why bishops cannot be saintly. Why would you be opposed to having bishops who are full of grace? It seems to me that anyone in any vocation would do better if the voice of God was clear (or clearer) to them. In "The Mountain of Silence", Father Maximos said that the priests and bishops are to be like angels to the people of God because this is how the faithful view them. I would encourage you to read this book; it is awesome.

I'm not and you're still missing the point.  You're entirely correct in your first points, but not addressing the issue.  I said that Elder's holed up in monasteries (to make a point) are frequently NOT the type to be hierarchs.  They can't administrate and are out of touch with the flock.
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« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2007, 06:49:58 PM »

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I'm not and you're still missing the point.  You're entirely correct in your first points, but not addressing the issue.  I said that Elder's holed up in monasteries (to make a point) are frequently NOT the type to be hierarchs.  They can't administrate and are out of touch with the flock.


Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. The point I am making is that men who are full of grace like St. John Chrysostom and St. John of San Francisco (among others) are the best kind of bishops we could ask for. These are the kind we need and should pray for. I don't see any reason why a holy elder could not be a hiearch.

Also, Elder Cleopa was not out of touch with the flock. Perhaps you should read up on him before making such statements. He was beloved by most of the people of Romania (even among many evangelicals!). The nation mourned when he passed away.
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« Reply #150 on: August 18, 2007, 09:57:12 PM »

No, actually, the Church, historically has not been all that clear. Some have condemned it as a violation of a husband or father's right of patria potestas, some believed it a type of ritual uncleanness not too different from menstruation, but willingly brought about, others have condemned it as murder, but many of these same people condemned masturbation as murder. Canonically, it is canonized in a manner comprable to fornication, but not as murder...it is clearly viewed as a lesser offence. Of course, many of these rules came from a time with an abysmal understand of human biology, reproduction, and fetal development. Considering the ignorance of even the most basic science pertaining to these fields, reason should dictate that the usefulness of these patristic and canonical sources is questionable at best.

I see the Church as quite clear:
 
Canon XXI of the Council of Ancrya

Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented.  Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.

Canon XCI of the Council in Trullo.

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
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« Reply #151 on: August 18, 2007, 10:21:44 PM »

it is ultimately the religion, not the abortion, that is psychologically damaging.
I wonder what your metropolitan, bishop, priest, would say about this assertion? Christianity is psychologically damaging. Who'd a thunk it?

Any priest? You give me the choice I am sure I can find a priest more sympathetic to my views than yours.
I should've been more clear...the priest's ordination can't have come from the back of a Rolling Stone ad.

I know of one priest who rebuked, quite strongly, someone who opposed abortion in case of a woman's health being in danger as being 'unorthodox'..
That's not what any of us are/where talking about. Roll Eyes


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« Reply #152 on: August 18, 2007, 10:37:08 PM »

I wonder what your metropolitan, bishop, priest, would say about this assertion? Christianity is psychologically damaging. Who'd a thunk it?

Christianity, inappropriately applied, can be damaging...and I believe that my Metropolitan, who is a Doctor in Psychology and was once taught it at the university level, may agree with this assessment...His Eminence has never been fond of the more fundamentalist elements of the faith.

Quote
I should've been more clear...the priest's ordination can't have come from the back of a Rolling Stone ad.

It didn't, it came from the hand of an Archbishop of the Synod of the Oecumenical Throne.

Quote
That's not what any of us are/where talking about. Roll Eyes

At least on this point some moderation is being demonstrated...but the priest I referenced made it clear that his opinions in regard to the appropriateness of abortion did not end there.
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« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2007, 10:58:37 PM »

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I should've been more clear...the priest's ordination can't have come from the back of a Rolling Stone ad.

Methinks  Cheesy

Quote
it is ultimately the religion, not the abortion, that is psychologically damaging.

Quote
Christianity, inappropriately applied, can be damaging...and I believe that my Metropolitan, who is a Doctor in Psychology and was once taught it at the university level, may agree with this assessment...His Eminence has never been fond of the more fundamentalist elements of the faith.

So the Orthodox church's stance on abortion is psychologically damaging?  Huh  Do you think your metropolitan would think the Orthodox church's stance on abortion is more psychologically damaging than the abortion itself?
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« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2007, 11:13:43 PM »

So the Orthodox church's stance on abortion is psychologically damaging?  Huh  Do you think your metropolitan would think the Orthodox church's stance on abortion is more psychologically damaging than the abortion itself?

Not entirely certain, maybe, maybe not...probably depends on the specifics of the case. His Eminence has not often spoken on the issue publically, but one instance in which he referenced the issue of abortion (during a statement about the Terri Schiavo incident):

'This family has an inherent responsibility to choose and decide for their own. So here comes the government and says, "No! I'm going to become something over you. I'm going to tell you this is wrong, this is a sin." This is the way we're politicizing issues, like abortion, like same-sex marriages. We politicize them to the point that you divide the nation, you divide neighbors, you divide everybody — face to face, black and white. It's not a black-and-white issue here.'

Los Angeles Times, April 2, 2005

Ultimately this sounds much like what I've been saying, it's not a clear cut case of black and white, right and wrong, each and every situation deserves individual consideration before any such judgement can be made (if, in fact, it is even ours to make).
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« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2007, 11:38:02 PM »

Not entirely certain, maybe, maybe not...probably depends on the specifics of the case. His Eminence has not often spoken on the issue publically, but one instance in which he referenced the issue of abortion (during a statement about the Terri Schiavo incident):

'This family has an inherent responsibility to choose and decide for their own. So here comes the government and says, "No! I'm going to become something over you. I'm going to tell you this is wrong, this is a sin." This is the way we're politicizing issues, like abortion, like same-sex marriages. We politicize them to the point that you divide the nation, you divide neighbors, you divide everybody — face to face, black and white. It's not a black-and-white issue here.'

Los Angeles Times, April 2, 2005

Ultimately this sounds much like what I've been saying, it's not a clear cut case of black and white, right and wrong, each and every situation deserves individual consideration before any such judgement can be made (if, in fact, it is even ours to make).
But is not the protection of human life one of the most important--if not the most important--responsibilities of government?  If the unborn human life is just as fully human as the postnatal human life, then does not government have the obligation to establish laws to protect that life?  Secondly, if human life bears the image of its Creator, is it right for us to define when an unborn human life form becomes human beyond merely following the tradition of the Creator's Church--this is best seen in our great feasts of the Annunciation to the Theotokos and the conceptions of the Theotokos and of St. John the Baptist--that human life begins at conception?
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« Reply #156 on: August 18, 2007, 11:50:10 PM »

But is not the protection of human life one of the most important--if not the most important--responsibilities of government?

Not at all, the theory of social contract and, as a derivative, government, dictates that it is the responsibility of the tribe/state/etc. to protect its members, in our instance citizens...often this actually requires the destruction of human life in the form of war with competing tribes/states. In this particular situation citizenship comes at birth and, accordingly, so does governmental responsibility for protection.

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If the unborn human life is just as fully human as the postnatal human life, then does not government have the obligation to establish laws to protect that life?

That's a big IF, with which I disagree...but as I pointed out above, the answer to your question is no.

Quote
Secondly, if human life bears the image of its Creator, is it right for us to define when an unborn human life form becomes human beyond merely following the tradition of the Church--this is best seen in our great feasts of the Annunciation to the Theotokos and the conceptions of the Theotokos and of St. John the Baptist--that human life begins at conception?

Yes, it is good that we consider this issue for ourselves, these patristic theories were developed with an inaccurate understanding of the reproductive processes. Had these fathers actually understood the details of the phenomena they were commenting on there is no guarantee that their opinions would have been the same. We should not be blindly confined by ancient customs derived from an ignorance of the biological process; rather, we should realize that we are now in a position to evaluate this issue, superior to any other position seen in the history of the Church. Thus, we should consider this issue through the lense of an accurate understanding of the phenomenon, independent of past prejudices based on ignorance and misunderstanding.

While there are many issues on which we can find wisdom in the fathers, there are other issues on which they are simply not qualified to comment. This is through no fault of their own, for they were intelligent and learned men, but a direct result of living in a less advanced time and, thus, not having access to the knowledge and understandings we now enjoy, through no virtue of our own.
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« Reply #157 on: August 19, 2007, 12:06:14 AM »

Yes, it is good that we consider this issue for ourselves, these patristic theories were developed with an inaccurate understanding of the reproductive processes. Had these fathers actually understood the details of the phenomena they were commenting on there is no guarantee that their opinions would have been the same. We should not be blindly confined by ancient customs derived from an ignorance of the biological process; rather, we should realize that we are now in a position to evaluate this issue, superior to any other position seen in the history of the Church. Thus, we should consider this issue through the lense of an accurate understanding of the phenomenon, independent of past prejudices based on ignorance and misunderstanding.
Let me point you back to the foundation for my argument of when human life begins.
Secondly, if human life bears the image of its Creator, is it right for us to define when an unborn human life form becomes human beyond merely following the tradition of the Creator's Church--this is best seen in our great feasts of the Annunciation to the Theotokos and the conceptions of the Theotokos and of St. John the Baptist--that human life begins at conception?
Science does show us much more clearly than we've ever seen before the phenomenon of how life develops in the womb, but for all its advances, science can still not define for us what is essentially a metaphysical "truth", something that falls more properly to the study of philosophy and faith--that is the question, "When does human life begin?".

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While there are many issues on which we can find wisdom in the fathers, there are other issues on which they are simply not qualified to comment. This is through no fault of their own, for they were intelligent and learned men, but a direct result of living in a less advanced time and, thus, not having access to the knowledge and understandings we now enjoy, through no virtue of our own.
If anything, this pov is indicative of just how far we have fallen into the darkness of idolatry, the idolatry of worshiping our own minds rather than the Creator who gave us our minds.  God has spoken through our Church and through our Holy Fathers, so it is most unwise to supplant this wisdom with our own cunningly devised fables and explanations.  Let science address that which belongs properly to its realm, but let us not fall for the belief that we can use science to explore that which transcends its realm.
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« Reply #158 on: August 19, 2007, 12:13:01 AM »

You've got a good handle on this one, PtA.
Please note, the 'pov' above is Gic's.

Thanks for keeping a level head, both of you. Glad I don't have to kick this out to Politics, so far.
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« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2007, 12:53:00 AM »

As much as I want to condemn GiC as a "baby-killer" or pro-abortion or whatever, I just have one phrase for those of you who disagree with GiC:  Zero-tolerance laws.  I think that may be his point.
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« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2007, 01:14:02 AM »

As much as I want to condemn GiC as a "baby-killer" or pro-abortion or whatever, I just have one phrase for those of you who disagree with GiC:  Zero-tolerance laws.  I think that may be his point.
Yeah, I agree with you that zero-tolerance laws are almost always a bad thing, EVEN when it comes to abortion.  I don't think I'm being inconsistent with my desire to protect unborn human life to recognize that there are those situations (such as extreme risk to the life of the mother) where the mother should be granted at least the legal discretion to abort her pregnancy.  Even so, this does not negate the fact that abortion is fundamentally murder, even in these extreme circumstances.
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« Reply #161 on: August 19, 2007, 01:23:00 AM »

See my Post#150 above.
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« Reply #162 on: August 19, 2007, 01:53:39 AM »

As much as I want to condemn GiC as a "baby-killer" or pro-abortion or whatever, I just have one phrase for those of you who disagree with GiC:  Zero-tolerance laws.  I think that may be his point.
I agree completely. Yet neither myself, nor Orthodox Bagpiper, have argued for a 'zero-tolerance' policy. To do so would be irresponsible and demonstrate a lack of understanding and indifferance to an issue that affects millions of women and families per year. What we were saying is that any country with a 70% abortion rate (and I understand those figures are no longer accurate) is a definate cause for questioning. Ain't no way that 1) all those abortions were performed to save the mothers' lives! and 2) ALL of the clergy were doing their job during those years. I realize that there were extenuating circumstances and that, once again, it's not as black and white as some would want us to believe. The arguement I put forward then and now is that an abortion performed on a healthy mother and child goes against the Church's teachings and that an Orthodox country with a high rate of abortions is doing something wrong.
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« Reply #163 on: August 19, 2007, 08:57:49 PM »

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I agree completely. Yet neither myself, nor Orthodox Bagpiper, have argued for a 'zero-tolerance' policy. To do so would be irresponsible and demonstrate a lack of understanding and indifferance to an issue that affects millions of women and families per year. What we were saying is that any country with a 70% abortion rate (and I understand those figures are no longer accurate) is a definate cause for questioning. Ain't no way that 1) all those abortions were performed to save the mothers' lives! and 2) ALL of the clergy were doing their job during those years. I realize that there were extenuating circumstances and that, once again, it's not as black and white as some would want us to believe. The arguement I put forward then and now is that an abortion performed on a healthy mother and child goes against the Church's teachings and that an Orthodox country with a high rate of abortions is doing something wrong.

Methinks thou art right Gabriel.
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« Reply #164 on: August 19, 2007, 09:03:37 PM »

This morning our parish celebrated our first monastery's liturgy in its new building. It was truly a delight. At the end of the liturgy, the abbess spoke a little bit about the seriousness and sadness of abortion. It was announced that there will be a garden made at the monastery called "Rebecca's garden" which will have an icon commemorating the aborted babies. It will also be a place for people to pray for the children lost in abortion. Nacho, and Y were there as well. I know Nacho took a bunch of pictures. Perhaps he could post some of them.
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« Reply #165 on: August 19, 2007, 10:15:45 PM »

Actually, it's called Rachel's Garden, but yes, I do look forward to its construction. I feel it would be much more helpful to have prayer about this issue than debate. Men debating it will, IMO, have no effect.
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« Reply #166 on: August 19, 2007, 11:21:07 PM »

Actually, it's called Rachel's Garden, but yes, I do look forward to its construction. I feel it would be much more helpful to have prayer about this issue than debate. Men debating it will, IMO, have no effect.
Y,
I agree that prayer is always key, esp when the issue is a hot one and that evokes so much pain and emotion. Where I veer from your point is men debating. To begin with, abortion is not a woman's issue. It is a family issue because all members of the family will be affected. My ex-wife, as all women who go thru the procedure, was the one who went through the *physical* aspect. Yet, both her and myself, went through  (and to an extent are still going through) the psychological effects. Grandfathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles also must deal with the decision. The liberal movement seeks to distort the issue by making it a woman's cause. 'Pro-choice', as they understand it, is a selfish choice. 'My body, my right' is a selfish delusional choice that affects every member of our society regardless of sex. Men not only have the right to engage in this cause, they have a moral responsibility.
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« Reply #167 on: August 20, 2007, 12:21:36 AM »

Men not only have the right to engage in this cause, they have a moral responsibility.

Every person has a right to opine on every issue, that's the nature of our society. But the choice for an abortion should be between a woman and her physician, and no one else.
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« Reply #168 on: August 20, 2007, 12:25:35 AM »

Every person has a right to opine on every issue, that's the nature of our society. But the choice for an abortion should be between a woman and her physician, and no one else.

No priest, huh?
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« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2007, 12:39:10 AM »

But the choice for an abortion should be between a woman and her physician, and no one else.
Good grief.  Roll Eyes To start off, doesn't the father have a say? What if the couple is married? What if it were your wife who came home and told you she was no longer pregnant because she and her physician talked it over and decided, well, now's not the best time for a child. Are you telling us that you're gonna shrug and say, 'well, it's her choice'? I doubt it. Remember that black/white rule you were clamoring about earlier...
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« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2007, 12:40:50 AM »

No priest, huh?

It's a decision about a medical procedure...do you ask premission from your priest everytime you go to the doctor?
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« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2007, 12:42:43 AM »

It's a decision about a medical procedure...do you ask premission from your priest everytime you go to the doctor?

I might if that procedure was considered murder in the Church.
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« Reply #172 on: August 20, 2007, 12:43:20 AM »

But the choice for an abortion should be between a woman and her physician, and no one else.
Good grief.  Roll Eyes To start off, doesn't the father have a say? What if the couple is married? What if it were your wife who came home and told you she was no longer pregnant because she and her physician talked it over and decided, well, now's not the best time for a child. Are you telling us that you're gonna shrug and say, 'well, it's her choice'? I doubt it. Remember that black/white rule you were clamoring about earlier...
I got one word for you, GiC, in light of what Gabriel has opined in response:  It takes two to tango.
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« Reply #173 on: August 20, 2007, 12:50:05 AM »

Good grief.  Roll Eyes To start off, doesn't the father have a say? What if the couple is married?

Only if the husband/father is going to carry the baby to term himself...otherwise he has no right to inflict the consequences of his opinion upon his partner. And that is, in large part, the issue at hand: does one person have the right to inflict physical hardship upon another for the benifit of a third party (that may or may not be human and may or may not be alive)...or more to the point, does anyone have the right to inflict hardship upon another person for their own well being? Ultimately, I would argue, no one has the right to survive, and much less impose their opinion, at the expense of another...for these things are, by their very nature, despotic.

Quote
What if it were your wife who came home and told you she was no longer pregnant because she and her physician talked it over and decided, well, now's not the best time for a child. Are you telling us that you're gonna shrug and say, 'well, it's her choice'? I doubt it. Remember that black/white rule you were clamoring about earlier...

I'd probably say, thank god...I don't particularly want children. Wink
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« Reply #174 on: August 20, 2007, 12:54:04 AM »

Incredible how you can pull arcane canons out of dark, dank places to support any argument you wish, but fall back on quasi-Libertarianism alone for this issue. Never been married, have you?
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« Reply #175 on: August 20, 2007, 01:06:22 AM »

Only if the husband/father is going to carry the baby to term himself...otherwise he has no right to inflict the consequences of his opinion upon his partner.
This is the most immoral and irresponsible thing I've heard from an Orthodox Christian. I'm deeply saddened by your comments.

(that may or may not be human...
Boy, for a scientific feller this sure is a strange thing to say. What kind a baby do you 'spose two humans can have?

...or more to the point, does anyone have the right to inflict hardship upon another person for their own well being? Ultimately, I would argue, no one has the right to survive, and much less impose their opinion, at the expense of another...for these things are, by their very nature, despotic.
Um, no. Despotic is when a person selfishly decides to murder because they don't want to take responsibility for their own decision. BTW, you've successfully argued against any physical self-defense against any future attackers. OOPS!
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« Reply #176 on: August 20, 2007, 01:10:28 AM »

Incredible how you can pull arcane canons out of dark, dank places to support any argument you wish, but fall back on quasi-Libertarianism alone for this issue. 
This surprises you?
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« Reply #177 on: August 20, 2007, 01:11:25 AM »

Incredible how you can pull arcane canons out of dark, dank places to support any argument you wish, but fall back on quasi-Libertarianism alone for this issue. Never been married, have you?

This 'quasi-Libertarianism' (I understand you not wanting to surrender the full thing to me Wink) is the underlying philosophy behind most my arguments on this board. At times I find it expedient to use canons for the sake of rhetoric, and I am fairly well versed in them as I was once a student of the same, but they simply function as 'proof-texts' in these arguments: similar to how protestants use scripture.

And, no, I have not been married...but I fail to understand how that should prevent me from opposing despotism in all its forms. Wink
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« Reply #178 on: August 20, 2007, 01:11:52 AM »

This surprises you?

With profound regret, no.
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« Reply #179 on: August 20, 2007, 01:16:42 AM »

This 'quasi-Libertarianism' (I understand you not wanting to surrender the full thing to me Wink) is the underlying philosophy behind most my arguments on this board. At times I find it expedient to use canons for the sake of rhetoric, and I am fairly well versed in them as I was once a student of the same, but they simply function as 'proof-texts' in these arguments: similar to how protestants use scripture.
An art you did perfect here.
Quote
And, no, I have not been married...but I fail to understand how that should prevent me from opposing despotism in all its forms. Wink

In which case you have no real bull in this fight, at least not one with horns, four legs, and a bad attitude. This is just an intellectual argument for you; not so for many of us.
Despotism? Now there's a laugh, considering your views on Church government.  Cheesy
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