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Author Topic: More talk about the New Orthodox Study Bible  (Read 6280 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« on: July 31, 2007, 02:14:18 PM »

I was not really impressed by Fr. Peter's EOC journey speech when I listened last night - ESPECIALLY his reference to the Ben Lomond situation.  His reference to the LXX project didn't give me high expectations either, as it looks like it could suffer from the same criticisms of the NT OSB currently out.

I'll try to listen to Fr. Peter's closing and +PHILLIP's on unity as well.

Well, a former khouria of the St. Lawrence parish (JP) in Ben Lomond shared with me last summer that all is not well with that parish. Four of that parishes' key clergy and their wives along with a deacon left and submitted themselves back under Bishop JOSEPH even though it meant they would lose their clergy status. She told me they felt that salvation for them lay with in the Antiochian Archdiocese. I didn't ask her any questions, I only welcomed her back.   

As far as the OSB, which is due out in February, I think he makes it clear the Bible is not intended to be the be all or end all. He also said that they realize they are not our world's elite theologians. If the Orthodox Church was really serious about having a superb translation of the Orthodox Bible in English then the world's foremost theologians would be on the job making it happen. No one is interested in taking on the project (because the costs would be astronomical) so at least we have the OSB. It has been a great tool for evangelizing the non-Orthodox and we, ethnics, have learned much about our faith when we have used it for Bible studies.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2007, 02:06:19 AM »

Well, a former khouria of the St. Lawrence parish (JP) in Ben Lomond shared with me last summer that all is not well with that parish. Four of that parishes' key clergy and their wives along with a deacon left and submitted themselves back under Bishop JOSEPH even though it meant they would lose their clergy status. She told me they felt that salvation for them lay with in the Antiochian Archdiocese. I didn't ask her any questions, I only welcomed her back.   
I never said it (St. Lawrence) was some happy land - just that I disagreed with Fr. Peter's attitude.  As for the clergy there (or former, not Frs. Thaddeus and Seraphim), I don't see anyone can really say that they did things the right way with respect to canonical procedure.  They made a huge mistake and should own up to the consequences (i.e. defrocking, etc.).  As to the faithful?  They should be able worship where they feel comfortable.  As long as they worship under an Orthodox bishop (even if said bishop is overseas), no one should have any ill will or question their decision.

As far as the OSB, which is due out in February, I think he makes it clear the Bible is not intended to be the be all or end all. He also said that they realize they are not our world's elite theologians. If the Orthodox Church was really serious about having a superb translation of the Orthodox Bible in English then the world's foremost theologians would be on the job making it happen. No one is interested in taking on the project (because the costs would be astronomical) so at least we have the OSB. It has been a great tool for evangelizing the non-Orthodox and we, ethnics, have learned much about our faith when we have used it for Bible studies.
Haven't the costs already been astronomical?  This must be why many Orthodox I know don't own the (NT) OSB - they're not thrilled with it.  I hope Fr. Peter is actually wrong in the quality and his forecast about the OT OSB and it is much better.  TBA folks.
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2007, 12:23:17 PM »

I never said it (St. Lawrence) was some happy land - just that I disagreed with Fr. Peter's attitude.  As for the clergy there (or former, not Frs. Thaddeus and Seraphim), I don't see anyone can really say that they did things the right way with respect to canonical procedure.  They made a huge mistake and should own up to the consequences (i.e. defrocking, etc.).  As to the faithful?  They should be able worship where they feel comfortable.  As long as they worship under an Orthodox bishop (even if said bishop is overseas), no one should have any ill will or question their decision.
Haven't the costs already been astronomical?  This must be why many Orthodox I know don't own the (NT) OSB - they're not thrilled with it.  I hope Fr. Peter is actually wrong in the quality and his forecast about the OT OSB and it is much better.  TBA folks.

While there were many mistakes on both sides of the Ben Lomond affair I think the largest mistake was the division caused by pride and lack of obedience to authority. St. Stephen's original priest also had this same problem only in his case it was much worse (he has jumped from jurisdiction to jurisdiction since he was ousted. Last I heard he was in the ROCOR). They hide under the mantle of 'traditionalism' and yet they are still Protestants in their hearts.

I would agree the costs for producing the OSB are high but not as high as they would be if the world's top theologians translated the Bible from the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. King James basically had to make his theologians slaves for seven years to produce that translation of the Bible. An unassailable translation of an Orthodox Bible is something I doubt will ever come to pass. But we will at least have the OSB. If world Orthodoxy ever meets maybe they can put new translations of the Bible and better translations of the services on their agenda. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2007, 12:49:00 PM »

Tamara,
I'd have to say then that maybe the LXX team has done a rather poor job of marketing themselves.

This has taken several years already and I think everyone who was aware of this project expects it to be much different than what it appears the final product will be.

Why don't they just call it the EOSB (Evangelical Orthodox Study Bible)?
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2007, 12:56:29 PM »

Tamara,
I'd have to say then that maybe the LXX team has done a rather poor job of marketing themselves.

This has taken several years already and I think everyone who was aware of this project expects it to be much different than what it appears the final product will be.

Why don't they just call it the EOSB (Evangelical Orthodox Study Bible)? 

While I think that it's good their doing the project, I agree in that I don't think it's being handled well.  There is a professor at HC who was asked to be an editor/contributor to a few books of the OT that he actually specializes in; when he heard, however, that the general editor (Fr. Peter) reserved the right to change his scholarly work, he balked; I don't know if he's doing the project still, but even if he is, he is still complaining about how it's being run (calling it a "political" venture more than a scholarly/theological one).
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2007, 01:41:44 PM »

I have come to a realization a long time ago that the OSB is not for us Orthodox. It is done as a marketing tool for non-Orthodox. Once you come to this realization then you can get serious and find better sources. For the Psalms I use the Psalter by Holy Transfiguration. For the New Covenant I use the one produced by the nuns in Colorado. If I need something else in the OT I will study and look at in the Greek. The copy I read for my daily reading is the RSV.

We must understand that it is against the tradition of the church to go and find all the books of the bible in one place. We love to split them up so that we can read them next to each other. Open an Apostles, next to a Gospel with a Psalter sometime, and then you may start to begin to know what it means to study scripture.
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2007, 01:43:51 PM »

Thanks, cleveland and arimathea.  Tamara, I rest my case.
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 07:10:39 PM »

Thanks Elisha.
Thanks, cleveland and arimathea.  Tamara, I rest my case.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2007, 10:58:03 PM »

While I am no lover of the Orthodox New Testament Study Bible, ( I prefer the Buena Vista commetary) I heard Father Gilquist note 90 orthodox scholar and theologians were working on the Study Bible, this is definitely more than worked on the NT. It is being written not to the theologian who can usually read Greek but for the layman to gain further understanding AND at least it will be a compilation of the full Orthodox Canon in English for the first time.

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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2007, 01:32:24 AM »

While I am no lover of the Orthodox New Testament Study Bible, ( I prefer the Buena Vista commetary) I heard Father Gilquist note 90 orthodox scholar and theologians were working on the Study Bible, this is definitely more than worked on the NT. It is being written not to the theologian who can usually read Greek but for the layman to gain further understanding AND at least it will be a compilation of the full Orthodox Canon in English for the first time.

Thomas

Thomas,

I have noticed a disconnect between the needs of scholars and the needs of the average laymen when it comes to published Orthodox material.
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2007, 01:57:25 AM »

Thomas,

I have noticed a disconnect between the needs of scholars and the needs of the average laymen when it comes to published Orthodox material.

Me thinks that those in charge of the LXX think the "average layman" is a lot dumber than he/she really is.
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2007, 02:31:10 AM »

Me thinks that those in charge of the LXX think the "average layman" is a lot dumber than he/she really is.

If the NT was such a failure then I don't think it would still be in print. How many copies have been sold since it was first introduced? It must at least be filling the needs of the average laymen otherwise they would have stopped printing it by now and the OT project would have never gotten off the ground.
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 07:50:44 AM »

Now I understand how people can read through my posts here. If you can read through the Bible put out by Gregory's monastery, and actually like it (!?), u kould reed just a bout anething! Good grief, reading that Bible is like trying to wade through a 4 foot deep pool of mud. You could probably just skip to the footnotes and be a lot better off.  Now, don't push me, or I'll tell you what I really think  Tongue Grin  (though the Psalter has it's moments as well... I remember one line being translated as something like: "My brothers are big and good").

Regarding the OSB... I'm not sure that I understand what the problem is. A delay is one thing, but delays year after year is getting a bit much. I'll buy one if they ever get it published (I want to see what they've produced for purely academically curious reasons). The delays don't bode well for the final product... will the end result be as chaotic as the process that produced it? (though I think the forming of the KJV was also a somewhat chaotic process, and that obviously turned out quite well).
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007, 09:09:31 AM »

Regarding the OSB... I'm not sure that I understand what the problem is. A delay is one thing, but delays year after year is getting a bit much. I'll buy one if they ever get it published (I want to see what they've produced for purely academically curious reasons). The delays don't bode well for the final product... will the end result be as chaotic as the process that produced it? (though I think the forming of the KJV was also a somewhat chaotic process, and that obviously turned out quite well).
Thanks to our friends over at monachos, the LXX OSB OT Project:

 Board of Directors
Honorary Chairman Metropolitan PHILIP Saliba
Member Fr. Richard Ballew
Member Fr. Jon Braun
Member Fr. Peter Gillquist
Member Fr. Jack Sparks
Member Fr. Gordon Walker
Member Fr. David Ogan
Member Mr. Paul Goetz
Editorial Staff

Project Director
Fr Jack Sparks

Associate Project Director
Fr Richard Ballew

Director of Development
Fr Peter Gillquist

General Editor
Metropolitan Maximos (Pittsburgh)

General Editor
Fr Michel Najim

General Editor Fr. Eugen Pentuic
General Editor
Fr Jack Sparks

Translators

Genesis Fr. Richard Ballew
Exodus
Fr. Patrick Reardon

Leviticus
Fr. Jon Braun

Numbers Martin McGinty
Deuteronomy
Cyril Shartz

Joshua
Fr. David Hester

Judges
Mickey Hodges

Ruth Peter Bouras

I Kingdoms = I Samuel Theron Mathis
II Kingdoms = II Samuel Theron Mathis
II Kingdoms = I Kings Stephen (Bob) Holley
IV Kingdoms = II Kings Stephen (Bob) Holley
I Paralipomenon = I Chronicles Mickey Hodges
II Paralipomenon = II Chronicles Mickey Hodges
I Esdras Cyril Shartz
II Esdras (including Nehemiah) Fr. Daniel Griffith
Tobit Peter Bouras
Judith Cyril Sharts
Esther Peter Bouras
I Maccabees Mickey Hodges
II Maccabees Matthew Steenberg
III Maccabees Cyril Shartz
IV Maccabees Cyril Shartz
Psalms Dr. Don Sheehan
Job Fr. Michel Najim
Proverbs of Solomon Stephen (Bob) Holley
Ecclesiastes Cyril Shartz
Song of Songs Cyril Shartz
Wisdom of Solomon Peter Bouras
Psalms of Solomon Mickey Hodges
Wisdom of Sirach Mickey Hodges
Hosea Matthew Steenberg
Amos Cyril Shartz
Micah Cyril Shartz
Joel Cyril Shartz
Obadiah Matthew Steenberg
Jonah Matthew Steenberg
Nahum Cyril Shartz
Habakkuk Cyril Shartz
Zephaniah Cyril Shartz
Haggai Cyril Shartz
Zechariah Peter Bouras
Malachi Peter Bouras
Isaiah Cyril Shartz
Jeremiah Rev. Samuel Miller

Baruch Cyril Shartz
Epistle of Jeremiah Cyril Shartz
Lamentations Joel Kalvesmaki
Ezekiel Fr. Patrick O'Grady
Daniel Matthew Steenberg
Song of the Three Children Matthew Steenberg
Susanna Matthew Steenberg
Bel and the Dragon Matthew Steenberg
Commentators
Genesis Fr. Richard Ballew
Exodus
Fr. Patrick Reardon

Leviticus
Fr. Jon Braun

Numbers Fr. Richard Ballew
Deuteronomy
Mark Kern
Joshua
Fr. Titus Fulcher
Judges
Cyril Shartz
Ruth Fr. Chris Wojcik
I Kingdoms = I Samuel Fr. John Reeves
II Kingdoms = II Samuel Fr. John Reeves
II Kingdoms = I Kings Stephen (Bob) Holley
IV Kingdoms = II Kings Stephen (Bob) Holley
I Paralipomenon = I Chronicles Fr. Gregory Rogers
II Paralipomenon = II Chronicles Fr. Gregory Rogers
I Esdras Dn. Michael Gillas
II Esdras (including Nehemiah) Fr. Christopher Wojcik
Tobit Dn. Moshe Zorea
Judith Shaun Daugherty
Esther Fr. Christopher Wojcik
I Maccabees Fr. Gregory Rogers
II Maccabees Fr. Thaddeus Wojcik
III Maccabees Fr. John Peck
IV Maccabees Dr. David Lewis
Psalms Fr. Patrick Reardon

Job Fr. Michel Najim
Proverbs of Solomon Fr Jack Sparks

Ecclesiastes Andrew Copeland
Song of Songs Fr. John Peck
Wisdom of Solomon Fr. Philip Armstrong
Wisdom of Sirach Fr. Gordon Walker
Hosea Fr. John Peck
Amos Fr. Bartholomew Wojcik
Micah Fr. David Sedor
Joel Joel Kalvesmaki
Obadiah Matthew Steenberg
Jonah Fr. Isaiah Gillette
Nahum Fr. David Sedor
Habakkuk John Stamps
Zephaniah Fr. Joseph Corrigan
Haggai Fr. David Sedor
Zechariah Gregory Gray Smith
Malachi Fr. John Elias
Gregory Gray Smith
Isaiah Fr. John Morris
Jeremiah Fr. Nathan Kroll
Joel Kalvesmaki
Baruch Joel Kalvesmaki
Epistle of Jeremiah Joel Kalvesmaki
Lamentations Joel Kalvesmaki
Ezekiel Fr. George Gray
Daniel Fr. Bill Calderoni
Translation Committee

Translation Chairman
Cyril Shartz

Pentateuch Chairman
(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges)
Fr. Richard Ballew

Historical Books Chairman
(Kingdoms, Chronicles, Esdras, Maccabees)
Stephen (Bob) Holley

Poetic Books Chairman
(Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom of Solomon,Wisdom of Sirach) Joel Kalvesmaki
Prophecy Chairman (shorter books - Minor prophets, Baruch, Lamentations, Letter of Jeremiah) Matthew Steenberg
Prophecy Chairman
(longer books - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel)
Fr. Patrick O'Grady
Narrative Books Chairman (Ruth, Job, Esther, Tobit, Judith) Fr. Michel Najim
Footnote Writers Fr. Jon Braun

One Page Articles Dr. David Ford
Choosing Icons and Illustrations Fr. John Peck
Jeffery Little
One Page Articles

Chairman Dr. David Ford
Co-Editor Fr. Theodore Petrides
CREATION Mark Kern, Fr. Mike Barclay
MEANINGS OF THE OT COVENANT Fr. Mike Barclay
THE SABBATH AND THE EIGHT DAY Mark Kern, Fr. Mike Barclay
THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL Mark Kern
TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS (DIAGRAM)
Mark Kern

GIVING OF THE LAW
Mark Kern

MARY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
Mark Sedrak, Laurent Cleenewerck

PERSONAL APPEARANCES OF CHRIST IN THE OT
Mark Kern, Fr. Benjamin Henderson

ANCESTRAL SIN John Lamberes, Mark Kern, Fr. Mike Barclay
THE MAJOR PROPHECIES OF CHRIST IN THE OT Fr. Stefan Zencuch
TYPOLOGY Deborah Kane, Fr.Stefan Zencuch
THE OT SACRIFICE Mark Sedrak, Mark Kern
THE OT CANON Laurent Cleenewerck, Fr. Allyne Smith
MELCHIZEDEK Fr. John A. Peck, Mark Kern
WHAT IS THE SEPTUAGINT? Fr. Allyne Smith
CHRIST OUR PASSOVER Dr. David Lewis
THE FEAST OF PENTECOST Edward Moore
SACRAMENT AND SYMBOL Edward Moore
THE TRINITY IN THE OT Deborah Kane,
Spiros Michalitsianos
IMAGERY IN THE TEMPLE Unassigned
GLOSSARY Fr. John Morris
OUTLINES AND INTRODUCTIONS Fr. Donald Hock
Margaret Hock
Center Column References
Nicholas Tentzeras
Nancy Tentzeras
Proofreading

Renie Carr
Beryl Hamilton
Fr. Christopher Wojcik
Administrative
Steve Ackley
Mark Mellis
Kelly Gracy
Joe Gracy
______________________________________

Obviously, a huge project.
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007, 12:57:50 PM »

Thanks to our friends over at monachos, the LXX OSB OT Project:....

Obviously, a huge project.

Αριστοκλής,

Apparently it doesn't matter how large the project is for some to be critical even before the book has been published. The fact that a number of these translators are in different jurisdictions, live in different states or countries and more than likely have day jobs should also be taken in consideration. Also, we do not have a king or dictator to crack the whip over the heads of translators and editors so they will work more quickly. It took seven years for the KJV to be produced by forty-seven of the finest English theologians of that era working fulltime. They also had the benefit of working as teams in three locations (Oxford, Cambridge and Westmininster). The King pleaded poverty and had his bishops provide voluntary contributions to the translators.
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2007, 01:18:19 PM »

And your point is....,exactly, what?
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 01:27:39 PM »

And your point is....,exactly, what?

That folks like Elisha and I shouldn't be so critical of the project, considering that it seems that they are trying to make the OSB LXX better than the OSB NT.  And that all should be more patient, considering the tremendous human-power required to complete such a project in such a professional and complete way.
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2007, 01:36:57 PM »

Exactly the attitude I have in expectation of its overdue publication. Its success is probably financially assured already with such pent- up demand. I'm not ready to condemn it, certainly not in relation to any existing English translations all of which I find suspect.
I just don't understand this scholar vs layman opposition.
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2007, 02:58:20 PM »


I just don't understand this scholar vs layman opposition.

This topic could probably become another thread but it is a problem. The needs of the layman are different than desires of an Orthodox scholar or theologian. The average layman will have problems understanding books written by Fr. George Florovsky.
Also time is an issue for the average laymen. Most don't have the luxury of time to learn Koine Greek and do in depth studies of the various books of the Bible. Those who do have time and higher IQs shouldn't look down on the rest of us average joes and josephines. We want to learn but we need materials written so we can understand some of the deeper theological concepts of our faith. Within the last twenty years more materials have been written to meet our needs but we still have a long way to go.
A priest who wrote a book on basic Orthodox spirituality asked me to review it as an average Orthodox layman. It was fantastic! The deeper concepts associated with theosis were written in such a clear way I didn't have to struggle reading sentences over and over again like I have with other Orthodox books which were written in a dry, academic style with lots of theological jargon.
I think my intelligence level represents the average Orthodox layman in many respects. We are not stupid but we are not academics either.

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« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2007, 03:01:52 PM »

This topic could probably become another thread but it is a problem. The needs of the layman are different than desires of an Orthodox scholar or theologian. The average layman will have problems understanding books written by Fr. George Florovsky.
Also time is an issue for the average laymen. Most don't have the luxury of time to learn Koine Greek and do in depth studies of the various books of the Bible. Those who do have time and higher IQs shouldn't look down on the rest of us average joes and josephines. We want to learn but we need materials written so we can understand some of the deeper theological concepts of our faith. Within the last twenty years more materials have been written to meet our needs but we still have a long way to go.
A priest who wrote a book on basic Orthodox spirituality asked me to review it as an average Orthodox layman. It was fantastic! The deeper concepts associated with theosis were written in such a clear way I didn't have to struggle reading sentences over and over again like I have with other Orthodox books which were written in a dry, academic style with lots of theological jargon.
I think my intelligence level represents the average Orthodox layman in many respects. We are not stupid but we are not academics either. 

I wonder, though, if the complaint is not that it is written simply, but rather that it is watered down or diluted.  There's a difference between explaining Theosis clearly in a way that non-theologically-inclined people can understand, and just saying we move towards God.  One is proclaiming the Truth in a way to be understood, the other is watering-down the truth.  Now, I haven't looked over the footnotes enough to see whether this was done, but ISTM that this is the nature of the complaints against the NT OSB.
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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2007, 03:53:12 PM »

I wonder, though, if the complaint is not that it is written simply, but rather that it is watered down or diluted.  There's a difference between explaining Theosis clearly in a way that non-theologically-inclined people can understand, and just saying we move towards God.  One is proclaiming the Truth in a way to be understood, the other is watering-down the truth.  Now, I haven't looked over the footnotes enough to see whether this was done, but ISTM that this is the nature of the complaints against the NT OSB.

I couldn't have said it better.

Btw, my dad is one of the commentators of a couple of books...but that doesn't mean I can't be critical.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 07:42:39 PM »

Quote
Apparently it doesn't matter how large the project is for some to be critical even before the book has been published. The fact that a number of these translators are in different jurisdictions, live in different states or countries and more than likely have day jobs should also be taken in consideration. Also, we do not have a king or dictator to crack the whip over the heads of translators and editors so they will work more quickly. It took seven years for the KJV to be produced by forty-seven of the finest English theologians of that era working fulltime. They also had the benefit of working as teams in three locations (Oxford, Cambridge and Westmininster). The King pleaded poverty and had his bishops provide voluntary contributions to the translators.

Tamara,

I agree with you. Even though there are millions of Orthodox who know even less about the Gospel and Orthodoxy than many protestants, having one little Orthodox study Bible out on the market (amongst the infinite protestant study Bibles) I guess is just a horrible idea  Roll Eyes  .

I just don't get these Orthodox who complain about great things like the OSB. If it is too watered down for them, they can go and buy other commentaries to suit their needs. Why should there be no OSB at all?? This is just another example of why it is likely the Antiochians will be the dominant Orthodox church in America.
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2007, 07:58:36 PM »

Tamara,

I agree with you. Even though there are millions of Orthodox who know even less about the Gospel and Orthodoxy than many protestants, having one little Orthodox study Bible out on the market (amongst the infinite protestant study Bibles) I guess is just a horrible idea  Roll Eyes  .

I just don't get these Orthodox who complain about great things like the OSB. If it is too watered down for them, they can go and buy other commentaries to suit their needs. Why should there be no OSB at all?? This is just another example of why it is likely the Antiochians will be the dominant Orthodox church in America.

So that's a good enough reason to settle for mediocrity?
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2007, 08:56:02 PM »

One of the things I was first drawn to in Orthodoxy was its sense of permanence. We have a long history and a secure future and can therefore afford to be patient. We don't need to follow the latest church-growth trend or rush a publication so it fits with a pop culture theme before that theme dies out.

This is how I see the OSB LXX. The English-speaking peoples of the world are in need of an accurate Bible; therefore, the Church is providing one. I can afford to be patient because I know this project is important to the Church and will be finished. However, if it is rushed, it may not be as accurate as it should be and therefore becomes another Protestant version--which I certainly do not need; there are too many on the shelves as it is. So I wait, knowing that the more time that is given to this project, the higher its quality will be. I need it whole more than I need it now.

In the meantime, I own two OSB NTs. I find it helpful while I wait because its commentary helps me to understand any inconsistencies or mistranslations there may be in the admittedly imperfect NKJV text. I have read many commentaries, and I find most of them to have hidden agenda, usually one of textual criticism or social gospel, though I've found commentaries with a feminist slant, some with a deist slant, and other rubbish. I don't need one of these. The OSB NT is a  straightforward commentary with the aim of giving an honest word of clarification where it is needed. It is not terribly scholarly, but it is not simple, either. I can tell that there is wisdom in the comments that are given. If you want to call this mediocrity, go ahead. I think the Teen's Purpose-driven Study Bible 2007: Now with More Bling is a lot more mediocre.
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2007, 12:50:39 AM »

No good deed goes unpunished.

In almost five years into the Orthodox journey, I have observed that if you try something, anything (period, not even something new)  you will get criticized. Orthodox LOVE to criticize -converts and cradles.
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2007, 04:47:04 PM »

I'm looking forward to the OSB being finished.  It will probably be the only thing that gets me to stop using Critical Text Bibles.
No good deed goes unpunished.

In almost five years into the Orthodox journey, I have observed that if you try something, anything (period, not even something new)  you will get criticized. Orthodox LOVE to criticize -converts and cradles.

That problem is hardly unique to Orthodoxy.  My old Protestant church was the same way.  I think every group of people does the same thing.
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2007, 05:18:21 PM »

Tamara,

I agree with you. Even though there are millions of Orthodox who know even less about the Gospel and Orthodoxy than many protestants, having one little Orthodox study Bible out on the market (amongst the infinite protestant study Bibles) I guess is just a horrible idea  Roll Eyes  .

I just don't get these Orthodox who complain about great things like the OSB. If it is too watered down for them, they can go and buy other commentaries to suit their needs. Why should there be no OSB at all?? This is just another example of why it is likely the Antiochians will be the dominant Orthodox church in America.

I think they want an OSB but they want it to be more scholarly. I don't think the intention of the OSB was to be the ultimate theological wonder. It was intended to bring people into Orthodoxy. I have used in it Sunday school class. Our priests have used it at our youth camps. Our ladies parish book group has used it when we studied the book of Romans. I have attended Bible Studies run by Greek Orthodox priests who have used it along with their Greek Bibles. It is not perfect but it has filled a need for many across the board. If the NT wasn't successful on some level then they never would have gone on to do the OT.

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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2007, 06:36:56 PM »

Quote
No good deed goes unpunished.

In almost five years into the Orthodox journey, I have observed that if you try something, anything (period, not even something new)  you will get criticized. Orthodox LOVE to criticize -converts and cradles.

Well said Brotha Aidian. No matter what people are going to complain. I say put out an OSB now, put a revised one out later; heck, even do more than one OSB!

The OSB is not only great for converts, but also for many cradle Orthodox (I can't tell you how many cradle Orthodox i have met over the years who know less than a catechumen about the faith!).

If you don't like the OSB and it is too light for you, then go read other commentaries that suit you. Why continually criticize a good work that has been done?? Would it be better to have no OSB at all??
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« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2007, 07:00:08 PM »

Well said Brotha Aidian. No matter what people are going to complain. I say put out an OSB now, put a revised one out later; heck, even do more than one OSB!

Not a bad idea.
Quote
The OSB is not only great for converts, but also for many cradle Orthodox (I can't tell you how many cradle Orthodox i have met over the years who know less than a catechumen about the faith!).

So? we've an atheist here who knows more about the Faith than most Orthodox - cradle or convert. Living the Faith is not predicated solely on knowledge.
Quote
If you don't like the OSB and it is too light for you, then go read other commentaries that suit you. Why continually criticize a good work that has been done?? Would it be better to have no OSB at all??

Good points.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2007, 12:01:02 AM »

Quote
Good points.

Those are usually expected in my posts.  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2008, 08:37:22 PM »

Exactly the attitude I have in expectation of its overdue publication. Its success is probably financially assured already with such pent- up demand. I'm not ready to condemn it, certainly not in relation to any existing English translations all of which I find suspect.
I just don't understand this scholar vs layman opposition.

I can understand it. I came from a conservative protestant background, and Father Peter and many others from the former Evangelical Orothodox church also came from a more conservative Protestant back ground.

What we(former conservative prots) don't like and are 100%ly totaly against is a liberal(Philosophical Naturalistic)/ATHEISTIC understanding of the texts and history of the texts.

I won't name names but some Orthodox scholars embrace philosophical naturalism. They embrace a liberal protestant invention of the 17 & 18 hundreds.


One can be a conservative & moderate scholar, but some feel that you have to deny anything christian in a text in order to be a scholar.

I will name some of the Roman Catholic Liberal scholars.

Father Joseph fitzmyer and Raymond E. Brown


If the ORthodx scholar follows the same school of thought as these two scholars then I would want to proof read and edit their work too.


I'm sorry but that's just me. If a scholar wants to late date the Gospels to about the mid 2nd century......well I'm gonna have a problem with that. If a scholar says that Jesus didn't really do any miracles. Well I'm gonna have a problem with that.



So I think that some of this is to safe guard against the philosophical Naturalistic(what some call modernism) view.









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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 04:02:35 AM »

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I won't name names but some Orthodox scholars embrace philosophical naturalism. They embrace a liberal protestant invention of the 17 & 18 hundreds.

And you will find this type here at OC.net as well...( just fair warning).  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 11:47:51 AM »



I will name some of the Roman Catholic Liberal scholars.

Father Joseph fitzmyer and Raymond E. Brown


If the ORthodx scholar follows the same school of thought as these two scholars then I would want to proof read and edit their work too.


I'm sorry but that's just me. If a scholar wants to late date the Gospels to about the mid 2nd century......well I'm gonna have a problem with that. If a scholar says that Jesus didn't really do any miracles. Well I'm gonna have a problem with that.


I don't remember reading anything like this in Brown's Intro to the NT.  But hey, maybe you saw something that I didn't...


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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 11:50:12 AM »

While I think that it's good their doing the project, I agree in that I don't think it's being handled well.  There is a professor at HC who was asked to be an editor/contributor to a few books of the OT that he actually specializes in; when he heard, however, that the general editor (Fr. Peter) reserved the right to change his scholarly work, he balked; I don't know if he's doing the project still, but even if he is, he is still complaining about how it's being run (calling it a "political" venture more than a scholarly/theological one).

Actually, this professor DID contribute his scholarly work to the project.  In fact, he demanded that his monumental work on an entire book of the OT (Hosea) be the ONLY commentary on that particular book, as he spent 10 years working on it. 

Now he awaits to see whether or not they are actually going to do it, just to see if all the talk about "politics" and etc. is correct. 

His major problem is that all of the editors and contributors slaved over this work, but in the end only a FEW people make the final decision.  So if they throw out all that work, what was the point of them doing it, if they're just gona use something else? 

I think it's a valid question...
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