Author Topic: Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?  (Read 3007 times)

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Offline Mexican

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Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« on: May 20, 2003, 02:10:29 AM »
I have seen a lot of kneeling during the Divine Liturgy (in the Anaphora) here. :-[

Does this mean we are doing wrong? On the other side I have seen that in the Roman parishes a lot of ppl dont kneel at all.  ???

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Re:Why is the Orthodox Church "the Church"?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2003, 08:04:31 AM »
Christ is Risen!

Yes Snoopy, on Sundays (with fex exceptions) and all of Pascha, kneeling is banned for laity in the Church. SO if peopel were kneeling on Sunday, yes they are mistaken, but probably do not know this.

RC's rubrics tell them to kneel at certain parts of their mass, and thus the RC churches that do not, tend to be the ones RCs would call Modernist, as they are doing their own thing.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2003, 09:36:22 AM »
I tend to take the same position that Fr. Seraphim took. If people ask, then the answer is: yes, it is wrong to kneel (there's even a canon from the First Ecumenical Council disallowing it). On the other hand, if no one asks, then we shouldn't go around trying to correct everyone so that they do things "correctly" (unless we're a parish priest, but that's a different story as it'd then be our role to help people with their praxis). Fr. Seraphim was never one that was "soft" when it came to canons, but he saw the insistence on not kneeling, and the judgmentalism that came from some directed towards certain people who did kneel "at the wrong times," as a sign of the sin of "super-correctness".
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 09:38:15 AM by Paradosis »

Hypo-Ortho

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2003, 11:01:26 AM »
Good response, Paradosis (Justin)!

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Why is the Orthodox Church "the Church"?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2003, 11:17:50 AM »
Christ is Risen!

Yes Snoopy, on Sundays (with fex exceptions) and all of Pascha, kneeling is banned for laity in the Church. SO if peopel were kneeling on Sunday, yes they are mistaken, but probably do not know this.

Yes, this is correct. It was explained to me that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America allows "kneeling" (prostration) on Sundays because of the lack of weekday liturgical services (in the USA) where prostration/kneeling is appropriate. Hence the expression of reverence and piety is actually encouraged on Sunday. I would prefer they provide the weekday services.
Interestingly, some ACROD parishes (including the one I go to now) still adhere to the Latin-style sit-stand-kneel formula, but the diocese is trying to correct these Latinizations.  I am forgiving as some parishers there still actively remember the unia renunciation; so it hasn't been that long ago.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2003, 11:32:03 AM »
Strictly speaking, Eastern Orthodox aren't supposed to kneel on Sundays but I've seen ethnic and foreign-born people do it. Not many, though. Of course ACROD does it because of its Catholic heritage - it and its twin, the Ruthenian Catholic church (ACROD is kind of a clone), seem to be delatinizing in similar ways simultaneously.
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Offline Nigula Qian Zishi

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Why does GOA kneel on Sundays?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2003, 11:36:17 AM »
Yes, this is correct. It was explained to me that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America allows "kneeling" (prostration) on Sundays because of the lack of weekday liturgical services (in the USA) where prostration/kneeling is appropriate.

Umm, but GOA is known for paying its priests so well and the priests not having to work outside jobs, is it not? Would one not think that this would make it easier for GOA to have these weekly services that they say they are lacking? Just wondering aloud here.
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Offline Elisha

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Re:Why does GOA kneel on Sundays?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2003, 11:52:01 AM »
Yes, this is correct. It was explained to me that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America allows "kneeling" (prostration) on Sundays because of the lack of weekday liturgical services (in the USA) where prostration/kneeling is appropriate.

Umm, but GOA is known for paying its priests so well and the priests not having to work outside jobs, is it not? Would one not think that this would make it easier for GOA to have these weekly services that they say they are lacking? Just wondering aloud here.

Just speculating, but I think the issue may be more that no one (laity in the parish sadly) attends - so they don't have the services.

Offline moronikos

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2003, 12:38:19 PM »
At our parish, most of the people kneel on Sundays outside of the Paschal season.  There is a minority who stand.

I don't know what altar servers are supposed to do, but outside of the Paschal season, I was told to do a full prostration during the epiclesis.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Why does GOA kneel on Sundays?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2003, 01:08:12 PM »

Umm, but GOA is known for paying its priests so well and the priests not having to work outside jobs, is it not? Would one not think that this would make it easier for GOA to have these weekly services that they say they are lacking? Just wondering aloud here.
Just answering out loud here...but perhaps the apparent disparity in salaries reflects the difference in size of the average parishes among the jurisdictions.  Most Greek parishes I know of are huge in comparison to others. I'm sure there are correspondingly larger pastoral demands in larger, parishes  which can also afford the higher salaries. Just speculation, of course.
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 01:08:56 PM by Aristocles »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Why does GOA kneel on Sundays?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2003, 01:17:00 PM »
Just speculating, but I think the issue may be more that no one (laity in the parish sadly) attends - so they don't have the services.
Sadly, I suspect you are correct in this respect. A nearby ACROD parish which I first visited this past Sunday, and different from the one I normally attend, does offer many midweek services even with an average attendence of TWO worshipers. Now that is a priest who truly is ministering to his flock. I will begin attending there for mid-week services.
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 01:19:13 PM by Aristocles »
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Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2003, 02:04:00 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like the GOA has a lot of cathedrals and large churches which could account for the salaries being higher. There are many GOA parishes that are poor and cannot support a priest by themselves. I know of one parish like that personally. So with the GOA priests having the highest salaries, this may be skewed because of the large churches that the Greeks have. Also, don't forget that many priests during the week visit the sick, give communion to the shut-ins, etc.  I know of priests who are performing charitable work during the week.
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Offline Mexican

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2003, 06:46:45 PM »
Kneeling is seen as a sign of respect and adoration in the most important moments of the liturgy. I think the reason is also that there are few services on weekdays and very few priests, and only big cities have Orthodox parishes, and the faithful atend Church few times a year.

From what I know, there are vespers on wednesday in most of the parishes, and "Mass" (Divine Liturgy) on sundays.

Well, I don't live in the United States. Unlike the Protestant sects which have a lot of money from the USA, and the Catholic Church which is the national religion and whose priests are sometimes supported by the State and the Dioceses, the Orthodox priests do not have that.

In the Mexican Exarchate's Ascension Monastery for example, priests also work as teachers or in other things, because they don't have money. The Antiochians are in a better possition because the Arabs here are very wealthy and they have a lot of money. The Greek Diocese is in the Middle, it only has 3 priests here.

Offline Jonathan

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Re:Kneeling on Sundays and during Pascha is wrong?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2003, 10:31:19 PM »
The other Major Feasts are also no-kneeling.