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Author Topic: Concelebrations with ROCOR since the the 5/17 Signing  (Read 2647 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: July 26, 2007, 02:38:33 PM »

Does anyone know of concelebrations that have occurred with ROCOR clergy and non-ROCOR (and I mean not just Serb and JP clergy since they have always been in full communion)?

Two that I know of:
1) Washington Clergy Association at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seattle (ROCOR) on Holy Spirit Day.
2) Vigil and Liturgy for St. John Maximovitch feast day at Holy Virgin Mary Cathedral (ROCOR) in SF.

Any other?  Anyone know of Concelebrations where ROCOR clergy went TO another church (e.g. OCA, GOA, AOA, etc.)?  Thanks.
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Tamara
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 02:44:18 PM »

Does anyone know of concelebrations that have occurred with ROCOR clergy and non-ROCOR (and I mean not just Serb and JP clergy since they have always been in full communion)?

Two that I know of:
1) Washington Clergy Association at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seattle (ROCOR) on Holy Spirit Day.
2) Vigil and Liturgy for St. John Maximovitch feast day at Holy Virgin Mary Cathedral (ROCOR) in SF.

Any other?  Anyone know of Concelebrations where ROCOR clergy went TO another church (e.g. OCA, GOA, AOA, etc.)?  Thanks.

We haven't had any concelebrations with anyone since Orthodoxy Sunday down here. But Fr. James of the old Cathedral in SF has been very friendly with the Antiochians in the South Bay. He will give a retreat for us at Redeemer in August. He and Fr. Samer get along very well. I wouldn't be surprised if he joins us for future concelebrations.
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Elisha
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 02:55:12 PM »

We haven't had any concelebrations with anyone since Orthodoxy Sunday down here. But Fr. James of the old Cathedral in SF has been very friendly with the Antiochians in the South Bay. He will give a retreat for us at Redeemer in August. He and Fr. Samer get along very well. I wouldn't be surprised if he joins us for future concelebrations.

Many ROCOR clergy have been friendly for years.  I want to hear about actual liturgical concelebrations though.  Hierarchs have to approve this.  They can't say that you're not allowed to be friends with Fr. John Smith down the street though.
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Tamara
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 03:43:18 PM »

Many ROCOR clergy have been friendly for years.  I want to hear about actual liturgical concelebrations though.  Hierarchs have to approve this.  They can't say that you're not allowed to be friends with Fr. John Smith down the street though.

Do you think the ROCOR hierarchs will not allow their clergy to concelebrate?
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Thanatos
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 04:00:41 PM »

1) Washington Clergy Association at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seattle (ROCOR) on Holy Spirit Day.

I was at that one.
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Elisha
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 05:19:57 PM »

I was at that one.

Awesome! 

Question:  were there multiple chalices, administered by non-ROCOR clergy?  Just curious.
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Elisha
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 05:28:17 PM »

Do you think the ROCOR hierarchs will not allow their clergy to concelebrate?

This is a loaded question, but probably just one out of (for lack of a better word) ignorance.

They HAVE concelebrated, so it isn't strictly that sense, but I suspect they are just being VERY slow and guarded about this to avoid scandalizing their own faithful.  I think they are going about it very slowly and only allowing it on their own terms to start with, meaning that they'll invite clergy, but are at the moment declining/ignoring invitations from others (meaning OCA/AOA/GOA).

If you think about it, there is a HUGE praxis gap between ROCOR and others they are recently in communion with.  Even before the signing of the act, for example, Fr. James would probably Commune you...if you confessed to him or maybe told him you had confessed the night before or that morning.  This is what they're used to....and long services that don't throw out a lot of material.

Probably the main reason that the WA and SF events happened is that it is common knowledge among the west coast clergy that ALL jurisdictions are much more traditional than elsewhere in the country, i.e. less of a praxis gap.  (Fr. Sergei Kotar and I discussed this recently - west coast traditionalism at least.)

This is just my speculation of course.

Anyone else?
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Elisha
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 05:38:48 PM »

Additionally, since the WA even happened and it was stated on both the antiochianladiocese.org and wadiocese.com sites that Abp. Kirill gave permission, it isn't necessarily permission per se.  But the mode of happening - he will likely give permission if asked, but +LAURUS probably won't just issue an ukazi stating that all clergy can concelebrate with anyone whenever. 
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ROCORthodox
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 10:57:07 PM »

Heck, many clergy in on the East Coast are still refusing to commemorating Pat. Alexi II.  My priest has a  Ukaz issued which approves non-commemoration of the MP for those clergy who are still not comfortable with the union.    I know of at least one priest who is not giving parishioners a blessing to even commune at other jurisdictions since the union.  Who knows when concelebrations will happen with other jurisdicitons out in this part of the country in light of this.
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zebu
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 11:56:46 PM »

Awesome! 

Question:  were there multiple chalices, administered by non-ROCOR clergy?  Just curious.
I was also there. There was only one chalice, ministered by the ROCOR priest. I was pretty surprised when he announced that to receive communion, one only need be Orthodox and considered prepared by their OWN church's standards, meaning, a ROCOR priest gave communion to ppl who had not been to confession beforehand!
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Elisha
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 12:01:48 AM »

Heck, many clergy in on the East Coast are still refusing to commemorating Pat. Alexi II.  My priest has a  Ukaz issued which approves non-commemoration of the MP for those clergy who are still not comfortable with the union.    I know of at least one priest who is not giving parishioners a blessing to even commune at other jurisdictions since the union.  Who knows when concelebrations will happen with other jurisdicitons out in this part of the country in light of this.

I think someone else might have mentioned this elsewhere...interesting.  Maybe it has to do with non-ROCORthodox being LESS traditional on the east coast AND possibly also more folk resistant to the union.  Of course, I don't see how someone could remain ROCOR and NOT commemorate +ALEXI II.

When I attended the youth retreat at the Russian River property on Memorial Day weekend, I felt it was very heart warming to hear Fr. Sergei commemorate the Patriarch during the litanies at the services.  Those services, btw, were >50% in English since most of the people there were just us utes.
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Elisha
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 12:04:39 AM »

I was also there. There was only one chalice, ministered by the ROCOR priest. I was pretty surprised when he announced that to receive communion, one only need be Orthodox and considered prepared by their OWN church's standards, meaning, a ROCOR priest gave communion to ppl who had not been to confession beforehand!

Is outrage!   Grin Grin Grin

Fr. Alex is nice.  His family welcomed us greatly the weekend of the concert.  Judging from the pictures though, there didn't seem to be enough faithful to really warrant more than one chalice (two would have been rather quick).  I have no idea how many there were at Holy Virgin Mary for the St. John feastday, as I was only there for most of the Matins portion of Vigil.
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Thanatos
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 03:01:34 AM »

I was also there. There was only one chalice, ministered by the ROCOR priest. I was pretty surprised when he announced that to receive communion, one only need be Orthodox and considered prepared by their OWN church's standards, meaning, a ROCOR priest gave communion to ppl who had not been to confession beforehand!

What I was going to say ^
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arimethea
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 03:07:09 AM »

I can't give out the details just yet because they are not finalized but in the fall you will see a ROCOR and Antiochian Bishop concelebrate in an Antiochian Cathedral.
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Joseph
Elisha
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 03:07:53 AM »

I can't give out the details just yet because they are not finalized but in the fall you will see a ROCOR and Antiochian Bishop concelebrate in an Antiochian Cathedral.

Excellent.
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Elisha
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 02:17:25 PM »

Anyone know anything else?
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Elisha
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2007, 02:25:00 AM »

I can't give out the details just yet because they are not finalized but in the fall you will see a ROCOR and Antiochian Bishop concelebrate in an Antiochian Cathedral.

arimetha,

Any update?
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Elisha
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 02:26:55 AM »

This might be one of the first concelebrations:


http://ssppoc.org/news_071109_1.html

I was priveleged to take part in a historical step toward the reconciliation of the various factions of the Orthodox Church. 

"On Sunday, Dec. 9th, Bishop PETER of Cleveland of the Diocese of
Chicago and Mid-America (ROCA), Russian Orthodox Church Abroad will
celebrate - with the kind permission of Metropolitan HERMAN -
Hierarchial Divine Liturgy at 9:30a.m.

At
the Divine Liturgy Deacon Paul Sokol of our parish will be elevated to
the rank of Protodeacon, an award bestowed upon Deacon Paul by the Holy
Synod of Bishops (OCA) at their Spring 2007 Synod. Bishop PETER on
behalf of the Metropolitan, will bestow the award."

I
drove Fr. David to the service this morning.  From my parish of St.
Elizabeth's (ROCOR), I served as an acolyte (carried the fans), Reader
Joseph McClellan helped make sure protocol was done right, and Deacon
Kevin Kalish served as one of the two deacons.  Most of our regular
parishioners were there.
Pictures should appear on the Ss. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church web page soon (I was told today, but
they don't appear to be up yet.).

Fr.
David believes it is the first time a ROCOR bishop has gone to an OCA
parish to serve since the reconciliation with Moscow.  It is probably
the first time a ROCOR bishop has elevated an OCA clergyman.
Bp. Peter indicated that he believes this is the beginning of improved relations.

It
was particularly special for both Fr. David Straut and Fr. James
Parsells as Emily (Straut) is married to Fr. John Parsells, an OCA
priest.  Being the "adopted uncle" of my parish's children in general
and of
Fr. David's in particular, I feel a certain interest in those two young people as well.

There was a nice festal meal afterwards.

Reader Daniel Lieuwen
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Elisha
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 02:30:50 AM »

Not really a concelebration, but....

On Wednesday, 12/5, the St. John Men's Chorale (of which I am a member) sung antiphonally with the choir at St. Nicholas in San Anselmo, CA.  Both choirs sang English and Slavonic, of which English was the majority.  Bp. Benjamin presided and a ROCOR clergyman (Fr. Sergius Kotar) was one of the one choir members.  It was a joyous, festive occasion.

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Marc1152
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 08:58:17 PM »

I can't give out the details just yet because they are not finalized but in the fall you will see a ROCOR and Antiochian Bishop concelebrate in an Antiochian Cathedral.

Well, ther real acid test will be if Rocor and the OCA concelebrate.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Elisha
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2007, 03:45:47 AM »

Well, ther real acid test will be if Rocor and the OCA concelebrate.

Well, they HAVE already...depending on how you define concelebration.  I do not know if any ROCOR BISHOPS though have concelebrated with other SCOBA hierarchs other than Serbs since the signing (i.e. OCA/AOA/GOA).
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2007, 08:27:21 AM »

On December 9th, Bishop Peter of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia celebrated the Divine Liturgy at Saints Peter and Paul OCA Church of Manville, NJ. This is an important event because it was the first time that a ROCOR Bishop has served in an OCA Church since the granting of self-governing status to the former Metropolia by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970.

Pics can be found at http://www.ssppoc.org/news_071210_1.html#

Friar Tuck
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