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Author Topic: Oriental Orthdoxoxy and the Catholic Church  (Read 4478 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 25, 2007, 04:58:12 PM »

How do the Oriental Orthodox view
1. The Catholic Priesthood
2. Catholic Apostolic Succession
3. Catholic Sacraments
4. The possibility of the salvation of Catholics
5. The Bishop of Rome
6. Catholic theology: Scholasticism, transubstantiation, Simplicity of God, Original Sin, The immaculate conception, purgatory, etc.
7. Catholic penitential spirituality
8. Catholic Ecclesiology.
etc.?
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minasoliman
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2007, 09:54:03 PM »

That's quite a loaded question.  Wink

Put it in simple terms, the OO Church considers herself to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (probably this includes the EO Church for some OOs).  Our most important disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church is Papalism.

As of now, I haven't seen much OO literature on scholasticism, transubstantiation, and purgatory (some OO's simply learn from EO's and borrow their's, but I highly disapprove of this, since we OO's must find our own identity as well).  There is an idea on Original Sin and Immaculate Conception.  In OO history, there is not one father that gives us Anselmian or Aquinanian language terms of Original Sin, but there is debate on it within the OO community.  The Immaculate Conception is one that depends on the definition of Original Sin.  OO theology would hold that humanity is essentially no different before or after the Fall, as Sts. Athanasius, Cyril, and Severus have taught.  What is different is the grace of incorruption.  However, man is not essentially incorrupt.  As I understand it, the "definition of Original Sin" according to Catholic theologians does not question the state of corruptibility in humanity, but rather juridical state of humanity.  There is hint that some OO theologians have taught the juridical, but have not stressed it as much.

There are many Coptic bishops who are adamantly against Purgatory and Immaculate Conception.

I have read a letter by St. Severus condemning apokatastasis as far as OO belief of the afterlife is concerned.

Ecclesiology is flexible, I think.  We stress nowadays that no bishop is above another, even if it be the archbishop, who is "first among equals", so to speak.

There is an Apostolic succession among the Catholics, but this is questioned insofar as the dogmas of the Catholic Church are questioned.  Likewise, the priesthood, the sacraments, and the salvation of Catholics are also questioned in the point of validity, but usually not in the point of where to go in the afterlife (i.e. we try not to judge you all to hell, although in all fairness, some OO's may).

To put it in HH Pope Benedict's words, we consider the Catholic Church "defective," and, unlike what Catholics think of us, in some ways "heretical" as well.

God bless.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 09:57:37 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 11:35:44 AM »

How do you feel about our Christology?
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 11:43:34 AM »

How do you feel about our Christology?

In light of today's agreement, it seems we judge your Christology as Orthodox.  Nevertheless, there remains a perplexed understanding of the agreement between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church.

God bless.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 01:48:57 PM »

Papist

The questions you pose are in my opinion very disrespectful and potentially devisive.

I appreciate what your intention (may) be. I also appreciate the effort minasoliman made to try and answer in some way your various questions.

Be reminded that WE are all in the same church. The EO or OO is not two seperate "churches" though some people would love (love) to think so.

It is wishful thinking.....'pompusness'.

This thinking is full of pride and brovado with NO room for holiness, peace and love. I have first hand experienced very horrible treatment from people who have the distorted idea that the EO and OO or TWO distinct separate churches and that the EO is the 'actual' orthodox.....Yahda, yahda

This is non-sense since our fathers the Apostles DID NOT teach this.

I do feel that people are entitled to think what they want.

The clearest example of what Christs Church is on earth is what He called it..."My sheep", My Flock", "My Children". "These little ones" and so on. He did not establish for us a community divided; He established for us a community Whole and One...In His Body.

(God taught " a house divided in itself will NOT stand)

That means ALL the house both sides fall...Good suffer with the bad. The right suffer with the wrong.....

So much for EO and OO...

According to the teachings of God we are all in the same boat matters not who is right or wrong. If we are (were) one house 'any division' (not the cause of) creates the destruction for the whole house.

Therefore the only thing these two 'groups' have is the horror of Chalcedon which created the 'division' and the resulting two 'groups' (not churches).

Christ created His Church ...NOT churches. His church is a 'single' comunity in one mind, one faith, one doctrine, one baptism as was taught by Christ and taught vehemently my St Paul the Apostle.

Christ said in the end He is coming for His church. I can not imagine our God chosing between the EO and OO when He comes back. Which could be any minute or any day.

Let us be ready at all times fro HIs arrival. CONFESS one faith in Him and repent of sins.

Lets discuss how we (EO and OO ) can do this.

Thank you

And God bless the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church, Orthodox (which is to say one doctrine) in the Lord....Amen

Your Servant

Deacon Amde Tsion
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 03:02:36 PM »

Papist

The questions you pose are in my opinion very disrespectful and potentially devisive.

I appreciate what your intention (may) be. I also appreciate the effort minasoliman made to try and answer in some way your various questions.

Be reminded that WE are all in the same church. The EO or OO is not two seperate "churches" though some people would love (love) to think so.

It is wishful thinking.....'pompusness'.

This thinking is full of pride and brovado with NO room for holiness, peace and love. I have first hand experienced very horrible treatment from people who have the distorted idea that the EO and OO or TWO distinct separate churches and that the EO is the 'actual' orthodox.....Yahda, yahda

This is non-sense since our fathers the Apostles DID NOT teach this.

I do feel that people are entitled to think what they want.

The clearest example of what Christs Church is on earth is what He called it..."My sheep", My Flock", "My Children". "These little ones" and so on. He did not establish for us a community divided; He established for us a community Whole and One...In His Body.

(God taught " a house divided in itself will NOT stand)

That means ALL the house both sides fall...Good suffer with the bad. The right suffer with the wrong.....

So much for EO and OO...

According to the teachings of God we are all in the same boat matters not who is right or wrong. If we are (were) one house 'any division' (not the cause of) creates the destruction for the whole house.

Therefore the only thing these two 'groups' have is the horror of Chalcedon which created the 'division' and the resulting two 'groups' (not churches).

Christ created His Church ...NOT churches. His church is a 'single' comunity in one mind, one faith, one doctrine, one baptism as was taught by Christ and taught vehemently my St Paul the Apostle.

Christ said in the end He is coming for His church. I can not imagine our God chosing between the EO and OO when He comes back. Which could be any minute or any day.

Let us be ready at all times fro HIs arrival. CONFESS one faith in Him and repent of sins.

Lets discuss how we (EO and OO ) can do this.

Thank you

And God bless the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church, Orthodox (which is to say one doctrine) in the Lord....Amen

Your Servant

Deacon Amde Tsion
These questions are only disrespectful if you are a person who is looking to be offended. I am neither Eastern Orthodox nor Oreintal Orthodox. I am Catholic and not that informed with regard to the Oriental Orthodox. That being the case, I am simply trying to understand how the Oriental Orthodox view Catholics. Now, after you have spoken all of these flower words about the non-existent unity between the EO and OO Churches, do you also consider Catholics to be part of the Church?
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 03:33:44 PM »

Now, after you have spoken all of these flower words about the non-existent unity between the EO and OO Churches, do you also consider Catholics to be part of the Church?

That would be the logical extension of his argument (which is fine with me, as Catholics hold that the sacramental graces of the Church work within these two Eastern communions).
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 04:35:39 PM »

These questions are only disrespectful if you are a person who is looking to be offended. I am neither Eastern Orthodox nor Oreintal Orthodox. I am Catholic and not that informed with regard to the Oriental Orthodox. That being the case, I am simply trying to understand how the Oriental Orthodox view Catholics. Now, after you have spoken all of these flower words about the non-existent unity between the EO and OO Churches, do you also consider Catholics to be part of the Church?

Yes...(Thanks lubeltri)

The see of Rome clearly has true apostolic succession.

My previous post may have been a little too brisk.

I am very very much concerned about how the EO and OO are depicted by those who are not  or do not consider themselves in the Orthodox church.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 04:40:22 PM by Amdetsion » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 08:20:40 PM »

you have spoken all of these flower words about the non-existent unity between the EO and OO Churches

Isn't it great that we can have such a sensible and charitable discussion based on reasonable arguments? Wink

But seriously, Papist, it's good to see you're back -- although with you and Lubeltri both around, it becomes a little difficult to figure out who my true nemesis is. (Is it possible for a person to have two nemesi?)

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 08:22:17 PM »

Is it possible for a person to have two nemesi?

Nemeses? Nemesae?
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 08:51:55 PM »

Nemeses? Nemesae?

Nemeses is correct.  An English word derived from Greek ending with the singular -is suffix always becomes -es in the plural.  Other examples:  axis->axes; hypothesis->hypotheses, etc.
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2007, 09:23:09 PM »

Nemeses is correct.  An English word derived from Greek ending with the singular -is suffix always becomes -es in the plural.  Other examples:  axis->axes; hypothesis->hypotheses, etc.

Darn. I was really hoping for "nemesi". (You're undoubtly right, of course. If it were "nemesus", you'd naturally expect the plural to be "nemesi", like "cactus/cacti". Maybe Nemesus was a lesser known Greek god.)
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2007, 09:27:04 PM »

Therefore the only thing these two 'groups' have is the horror of Chalcedon which created the 'division' and the resulting two 'groups' (not churches).

My spidey sense is telling me that you're not entirely fond of the Council of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 02:36:22 PM »

Thanks everyone for all the discussion. I am finding the issue of Christology in the Assyrian Church to be quite perplexing. In fact, I read an article that says that those of us in the west (west to assyrians includes, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox) have mischaracterized their theology as Nestorian, and have mischaracterized Nestorian theology as well. I do not know how true this is. However, the joint declaration on Christology between the Catholic and Assyrian Churches states that Christ is one person and is both human and divine. It even goes as far as acknowledging that Mary is the Mother of God. Can any one point me in the direction of more information on the Christology of the Assyrians?
Now back to the Oriental Communion. I am certainly not trying to be disrespectful. I am simply trying to learn here. Can anyone answer the following questions for me?
1) How do the Oriental Orthodox determine what is and what is not an Ecumenical Council?
2) How do the Oriental Orthodox distinguish between the validity of the first councils and what they consider the non-validity of Chalcedon?
Again, I am not trying to be argumentative. I really am trying to learn more about those whom I consider to be my brothers in Christ.
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 02:52:52 PM »

It depends on how one defines "ecumenical council."  The word "ecumenical" as we all know means worldwide.  If we take it to mean that these are councils accepted worldwide, then there are only two (Nicea and Constantinople) that eventually received worldwide recognition.  Nevertheless, I think we have to broaden our definition.

If one defines it as simply a council that affirms Orthodoxy, then by all means, there are more than just the "three" or "seven" councils held by some.  We have to look at the local councils.

To answer your question simply, it pretty much depends on our tradition.  Our tradition defines also what is not acceptable, which can be divisive.  I've seen many people define a council as "ecumenical" by Papal authority, while others define it by "empirical authority."  Truthfully, the authority of the whole world means nothing to OO's if Orthodoxy is not maintained (hence St. Athanasius' "contra mundum").  To the OO's, Orthodoxy is the number one indicator, and the second indicator is the reception.  If let's say a council has not been received by all Orthodox, then it is not "ecumenical."  If on the other hand, a council has been received by all Orthodox, but not received by others who we define as heretical, then the heretical do not count in the "ecume" and thus would seem to me logical to be considered an "ecumenical council."  I think we can better define these councils as "Catholic" instead of "Ecumenical."

In other words, the validity of a council depends on people we consider "valid" according to Orthodox beliefs excluding the "invalid" ones.  Before we considered the EO's "Orthodox," you may say that we OO's have five (not three) "ecumenical councils," including Ephesus 449 and Ephesus 475.

For the sake of argument, if one day we decide that Nestorius was never "Nestorian" in the sense we accused him of, then it might be that we should only believe in "two ecumenical councils," not three, since we also have to consider the Assyrians as a "valid" group of Orthodox Christians.

God bless.

PS  The question of the validity of Chalcedon is obviously another debate that requires historical and theological assessment.
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 04:13:40 PM »

Thanks again! You have certainly been very helpful. Do you know where I can learn more about Oriental history and theology?
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2007, 01:45:23 PM »

I have split three other topics off of this thread:


1.  The Church of the East and its Relationship with the Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12359.0.html


2.  The Horror of Chalcedon:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12357.msg167837.html#top


3.  Was Nestorius Still a Heretic When He Wrote the Bazaar?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12358.0.html


The last two topics are in the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Private Discussion Forum.  If you do not have access to that forum and want to get in, pm Fr. Chris.




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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2007, 09:26:47 AM »

So you're saying that now there's a "Horror of Chalcedon" thread?

Huh

What has become of the concept of impartiality?
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2007, 09:38:38 AM »

So you're saying that now there's a "Horror of Chalcedon" thread?

My mistake ... turns out the thread is called "The Horror of Chalcedon". (I was just now given access to that forum.)

I guess that ought to make me feel better, eh?  Wink

-Peter (a Chalcedonian Christian).
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2007, 12:09:54 PM »

So you're saying that now there's a "Horror of Chalcedon" thread?

Huh

What has become of the concept of impartiality?

As you will be able to see, the thread was so named because the whole discussion seemed to be about that particular phrase.  No offense was meant toward my EO or Catholic friends.
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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2007, 05:09:55 PM »

My mistake ... turns out the thread is called "The Horror of Chalcedon". (I was just now given access to that forum.)

I guess that ought to make me feel better, eh?  Wink

-Peter (a Chalcedonian Christian).

"Chalcedonian Christian"?

Were you born and live in Chalcedon?

Or does your being a "Chalcedonian Christian" have a metaphorical pretext?
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« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2007, 07:58:24 PM »

"Chalcedonian Christian"?

Were you born and live in Chalcedon?

Or does your being a "Chalcedonian Christian" have a metaphorical pretext?

Come on, Father. He is using a standard way of differentiating himself from Non-Chalcedonians while trying to be polite.
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« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2007, 10:27:25 PM »

"Chalcedonian Christian"?

Were you born and live in Chalcedon?

Touché.

 Cheesy Wink
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2007, 08:57:08 AM »

Come on, Father. He is using a standard way of differentiating himself from Non-Chalcedonians while trying to be polite.

That is what I assumed and felt pretty sure that thats what was intended.

However I had not experienced anyone using this phrase.

I thought it no harm to get a confirm.

PJ said "touche" in response.

I am not sure (in all seriouness) if this is yes or no. I assume (and is taking it) as yes.
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