Author Topic: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?  (Read 3753 times)

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Offline narrowpathplease

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If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« on: July 17, 2007, 09:23:24 AM »
Does he not know what's in Revelation? Does he disbelieve God? Doesn't he know God never lies? What's going on here? ???

Sorry if this seems really stupid but I do believe demonic forces are very much active in the world and this question keeps coming back to me. :-[

Offline prodromas

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 09:34:20 AM »
Funny thing I was going to ask a priest that same question. St Georgery of Nyssa proposed that at the end of the world satan and his angels could bow to God and propose him as their master. Because you have to remember the dangers of interpreting scripture alone and especially the book of revelations with its mix of symbolic and metaphorical language with events that will pass.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 09:39:20 AM »
How about: "If I'm going down, I'm taking as many with me as I can." Christ called the devil "a a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44) At the root of every evil is falsehood, lies, untruth. At the root of every sin you will find a belief in something which is untrue. If this is true of sinners, how much more true of the one whom Christ called "a liar and the father of it"? Just as when we live a lie, we begin to believe our own lies.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 09:43:07 AM »
How about: "If I'm going down, I'm taking as many with me as I can." Christ called the devil "a a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44) At the root of every evil is falsehood, lies, untruth. At the root of every sin you will find a belief in something which is untrue. If this is true of sinners, how much more true of the one whom Christ called "a liar and the father of it"? Just as when we live a lie, we begin to believe our own lies.

Or as Milton's Satan said in Paradise Lost, "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
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Offline narrowpathplease

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 09:49:15 AM »
Interesting ideas. How likely might it be that God prevents them from knowing their fate? Perhaps to preserve a crucial aspect of their free will, just as we have freedom to reject belief in God.

Offline prodromas

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 09:53:11 AM »
thats sort of what I meant with the possibility that he could be forgiven by God
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline narrowpathplease

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 09:57:06 AM »
thats sort of what I meant with the possibility that he could be forgiven by God

Thanks, that makes sense. And maybe Revelation is more a warning of the way things could happen, than an absolute prophecy. Even the literal bits.

Offline prodromas

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 10:05:02 AM »
All we know is that it is in there for a specific reason. The only people that know the date of Jesus' return is the godhead and the godhead alone. Some saints have been blessed (or rather cursed) with visions of the coming Anti-Christ but great visions and the book of revelations is all we have. If we knew the date it would cause spiritual lethargy (even more than we have in the modern day) with the knowledge we can repent and get serious.........later.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 10:16:33 AM »
We must remember that Lucifer is an angel, not a deity. He is not omniscient. True, he does know the Scriptures well; he proved that by using them to tempt Christ. However, he also showed that he desires to use the Scriptures to further his own ends. If he did that to Christ, why would he not do it to Christians? So, although Lucifer knows what is written in Revelation, he twists it to deceive us. This is, after all, the prowling lion who seeks whom he may devour (from St. Peter).
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Heorhij

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 10:58:54 AM »
I think OzGeorge nailed it. Because of pride, it is possible to know that something is a lie, and yet continue to live this lie.

As for the exact fate of Satan and demons, and, generally, as for the exact eschatological scenarios, I don't presume to know... I just know that whatever God will do, will be just.
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Offline Sophie

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 12:23:36 PM »
He also does that out of envy, because God made us in His Image and loves us so much that he wishes to deprive Him of us, so that we do not get to do what he failed to do, become like God.

(If I am not phrasing theological issues well, please, please, correct me, my greek does not always translate adequately to English)
"Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!" (Priestmonk Christodoulos Aggeloglou, Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain Mount Athos, Greece, 1998,pp. 29-30, 48)

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 12:34:08 PM »
Your English is terrific, better than mine.

And I agree with your post.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 12:58:01 PM »
As for the exact fate of Satan and demons, and, generally, as for the exact eschatological scenarios, I don't presume to know... I just know that whatever God will do, will be just.

That's pretty much the position I have taken as well.  I think it's the wisest.

The problem with eschatology is that there are many people who use eschatology to further some sort of cause of morality.  I think it might have been necessary to be ambiguous about it for those who have not advanced their spirituality to the cause of loving God.

God bless.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 01:34:19 PM »
I heard a wise saying once (I forget who said it) that we should learn of our relationship with the angels and even moreso of our relationship with God, but the relationship of the angels to God is not ours to know.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Fr. George

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 02:59:01 PM »
I heard a wise saying once (I forget who said it) that we should learn of our relationship with the angels and even moreso of our relationship with God, but the relationship of the angels to God is not ours to know. 

Makes sense - but the story of Lucifer and his current relationship with God can be used as a teaching tool and a corrective guide: Not only can we focus in the Christian life on how TO live, we can supplement that material with a description of how NOT TO live. That would be the only value in studying the story of the fall of the angels - to understand our enemy, and to understand the fate of those who rebel against God.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 03:15:25 PM »
Well put. This is the very reason there are so many stories in Scripture of people who sinned and did not repent; I'm thinking of Queen Jezebel's being eaten by dogs, and King Herod's being eaten by worms. There are many others. Such stories teach us of the consequences of sin, many of which are far worse than the fate of these.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2007, 03:21:05 PM »
Well put. This is the very reason there are so many stories in Scripture of people who sinned and did not repent; I'm thinking of Queen Jezebel's being eaten by dogs, and King Herod's being eaten by worms. There are many others. Such stories teach us of the consequences of sin, many of which are far worse than the fate of these.

There was an interesting program on History International about Herod's death, focusing on the actual medical diagnosis.  And, contrary to what you might think, there was no refutation of the cause (ie Divine judgement) of the disease, just the medical diagnosis of the actual manifestation.  The doctor they interviewed concluded that Herod had some sort of kidney disease as well as gangrene of his nether regions.  The worms were most likely maggots.

*shudder*
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2007, 03:26:56 PM »
There was an interesting program on History International about Herod's death, focusing on the actual medical diagnosis.  And, contrary to what you might think, there was no refutation of the cause (ie Divine judgement) of the disease, just the medical diagnosis of the actual manifestation.  The doctor they interviewed concluded that Herod had some sort of kidney disease as well as gangrene of his nether regions.  The worms were most likely maggots.

*shudder*

*stomach does somersaults*  ewwwwwww
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 08:15:07 PM »
There was an interesting program on History International about Herod's death, focusing on the actual medical diagnosis.  And, contrary to what you might think, there was no refutation of the cause (ie Divine judgement) of the disease, just the medical diagnosis of the actual manifestation.  The doctor they interviewed concluded that Herod had some sort of kidney disease as well as gangrene of his nether regions.  The worms were most likely maggots.

*shudder*

You know, I figured the worms were just maggots.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2007, 09:41:28 PM »
When Christ raises Lazarus from the dead he pulls him up from the bonds of Hades and Hell trembled. At that point the Devil should have realized that he was doomed yet while Christ was on the cross the Devil thinks he has finally won. This just proves that arrogance will always blind you from truth.
Joseph

Offline Fr. George

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2007, 12:59:47 AM »
When Christ raises Lazarus from the dead he pulls him up from the bonds of Hades and Hell trembled. At that point the Devil should have realized that he was doomed yet while Christ was on the cross the Devil thinks he has finally won. This just proves that arrogance will always blind you from truth.

I don't know if it is that clear-cut - Lazaros wasn't the first resurrection from the dead in scripture (the dead man who was laid on Elisha's bones, the son in the funeral procession).
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2007, 09:21:32 AM »
Regardless, God's power over death is clearly evident. But, then again, things can be very clear and still not comprehensible to those who have blinded themselves. Did not Christ say again and again, "He who has eyes to see, let him see"? And Isaiah proclaimed: "Though seeing, they do not perceive; though hearing, they do not understand." Certainly Lucifer's blindness shows us the depth of our own ignorance when we choose not to pay attention to the things God is doing in our lives and the world around us.
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Offline narrowpathplease

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2007, 09:35:01 AM »
I hadn't really thought of it that way before. Satan prefers lies to the truth because with lies he believes he can serve his selfish desires that way and keep his pride. So living a lie, whether truly coming to believe it or not, is better for him than repenting. People are guilty of this, and I suppose it was naive of me to suppose that superior knowledge and intelligence would prevent it.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2007, 09:45:14 AM »
^ Bingo. In fact, many people, through the pursuit of superior knowledge, actually latch on to a lie, which they then use to filter new information. That's why there are so many highly intelligent people who believe absurd things, and also why genius and mania are so closely related.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2007, 09:50:46 AM »
^^Hey! Isn't that what I said on this very thread yesterday.......20 posts ago?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2007, 09:53:14 AM »
^ Well, what do you know? It is! I had totally forgotten about that. We younger people have such short attention spans. :P
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline arimethea

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2007, 10:29:56 AM »
I don't know if it is that clear-cut - Lazaros wasn't the first resurrection from the dead in scripture (the dead man who was laid on Elisha's bones, the son in the funeral procession).
What makes Lazarus unique in scripture is that he is raised from dead after 3 days. That means he was firmly in Hades at that point and that is what makes him unique. He wasn't just dead, he was really dead. It is the understanding of both Jewish practice and the Church that it takes 3 days to reach hades once one passes away. This is why Christ is in the tomb 3 days, not 2 days and not 4 days. Christ as soon as he enter Hades destroys it by his presence. I have heard it described as Hades having to throw up Christ and all that are inside of it. Lazarus was the equivalent to a shot over the bow.

I can not express in such a short place what the hymns of the Church do perfectly. Go and read the Canon of Lazarus and the Hymns of Orthros of Holy Saturday.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:32:17 AM by arimethea »
Joseph

Offline Fr. George

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2007, 10:36:59 AM »
^ Bingo. In fact, many people, through the pursuit of superior knowledge, actually latch on to a lie, which they then use to filter new information. That's why there are so many highly intelligent people who believe absurd things, and also why genius and mania are so closely related. 

I thought this thread was about Lucifer, not our wacky posters on OC.net!!!
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2007, 10:37:54 AM »
What makes Lazarus unique in scripture is that he is raised from dead after 3 days. That means he was firmly in Hades at that point and that is what makes him unique. He wasn't just dead, he was really dead. It is the understanding of both Jewish practice and the Church that it takes 3 days to reach hades once one passes away. This is why Christ is in the tomb 3 days, not 2 days and not 4 days. Christ as soon as he enter Hades destroys it by his presence. I have heard it described as Hades having to throw up Christ and all that are inside of it. Lazarus was the equivalent to a shot over the bow.

A good reminder, thank you.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2007, 11:49:20 AM »
I thought this thread was about Lucifer, not our wacky posters on OC.net!!!

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular.... :P
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Tzimis

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2007, 12:41:41 PM »
My thoughts are a little different on this subject. The lake of fire is the end of existance for satan and who ever else finds his way in there.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2007, 12:46:42 PM »
Who didn't see that coming?
However, I fail to see the point of bringing it up here, since, either way, Old Nick is doomed, and the actual question of the thread is: "Why does he do what he does if he knows he's doomed?"
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2007, 12:51:00 PM »
Who didn't see that coming?
However, I fail to see the point of bringing it up here, since, either way, Old Nick is doomed, and the actual question of the thread is: "Why does he do what he does if he knows he's doomed?"

Good question. Those that believe they will exist forever continue their evil ways because of there fause sense of immortality.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:51:43 PM by Demetrios G. »
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2007, 11:36:17 AM »
Good question. Those that believe they will exist forever continue their evil ways because of there fause sense of immortality.

But don't you think some people continue their evil ways exactly because of the false sense of *mortality*? Eat, drink and make merry (and also cheat and lie and oppress and murder etc.), for tomorrow we'll die...
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: If Satan knows he is doomed, why does he bother?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2007, 12:49:15 PM »
But don't you think some people continue their evil ways exactly because of the false sense of *mortality*? Eat, drink and make merry (and also cheat and lie and oppress and murder etc.), for tomorrow we'll die...
Your correct. When people aren't open to gods forgivness they except there condition.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.