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prodromas
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« on: July 17, 2007, 04:22:08 AM »

This kind of ignorance angers me beyond comprehension this is an excerpt from www.carm.org it is an "apologist" website defending the faith and "exposing heretical doctrines. This is just a taste of the type of answers given to questions! :


  Email:  What do you have to say about all the things I hear about how there were so many books burned by the church because it was in accordance to what they wanted. Is there proof that there are really only 66 books of the bible? Proof that there were books that really weren't burned?

     Response:  It is easy to make accusations that the church burned books.  But the Roman Catholic Church was not in existence until the late 200's early 300's as an organization -- but it did not become as structured and organized until sometime after that.  In addition, we have copies of manuscripts that predate the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.  It was the Christian Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, in the early church councils that recognize what was really Scripture.  Generally speaking, in order to be New Testament scripture the document had to be written by an apostle or under the direct guiding of an apostle.  The so-called missing books were never written by apostles nor were they written by anyone under the guidance of apostles so they were never supposed to be included in the Bible and the first place.  The early church recognized that these were false writings.
     It is the way of the devil to try and confuse the truth.  But, God through his sovereignty, worked through the church to establish the books of the Bible that we have today.


Has anyone been ignorant to the point of believing this claptrap! and also what can we do to help bring awareness to this blatant misunderstanding or history, the church and scripture?


 
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The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 04:36:57 AM »

An equivalent website is the option that immediately springs to mind. Unfortunately most Christian apologist websites appear to be Protestant with very little Orthodox voice to balance it. Still, that particular website does a decent job of defending much doctrine and Bible verses. It played a significant role in my own journey here. The Testimonials section is good too.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 04:39:16 AM by narrowpathplease » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 07:34:41 AM »

prodomas,
carm and it's related forum rate Orthodox and Roman Catholics as religions separate from Christianity along with Buddhism, JWs, Freemasonery, Islam, New Age, etc. They list as heterodox Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, Word of Faith. And as ORTHODOX: Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Home Fellowships, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Non-Denominational...

Come on, friend...What do you expect from folks like that?

Invite them HERE.
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 08:23:07 AM »

They might think that we will possess them!? I forget the website but it was a site that pretty much disregarded all denominations as heretical (I know a fair bit about the protestant splits and it seems to disregard all MAJOR ones as heresy it must be some niche form of Christianity with 10 members all family lol), I was in awe at there fundamental misunderstanding of Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology. It was like a tabloid television program! they had random pictures of the church and people worshiping and using there logic to diffuse the situation, it was something like a saints bones were being paraded to be properly venerated and the quote describing the picture says "God allows worship to only himself and not other humans" and then pictures of a masonic symbol in a church saying "we know who runs this church (satan)" then possibly the most hilarious Orthodox standing around a phallus like statue stating that they worship the phallus, then with further evidence of this claim i beleive it was a traditional italian or ukrainian sweet shaped like a phallus, OMG the evidence is all there we are no better than pagans..... almost was on the ground crying I was laughing that hard!
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The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 08:52:24 AM »


carm and it's related forum rate Orthodox and Roman Catholics as religions separate from Christianity along with Buddhism, JWs, Freemasonery, Islam, New Age, etc. They list as heterodox Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, Word of Faith. And as ORTHODOX: Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Home Fellowships, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Non-Denominational...
Actually Orthodoxy is on their 'to do list'. Which is pretty darn long. When Mr. Slick gets round to it, you never know, he may yet decide we're right! Smiley Well, maybe. He'd have to get renounce his view of icons and sola scripture and the whole thing would probably be pretty embarrassing.  Wink

Quote
Invite them HERE.
Yeah! Smiley
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 08:53:20 AM by narrowpathplease » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 09:18:18 AM »

This kind of ignorance has been going on for two millenia.
Have you guys heard of the "Alexamenos Graffito"? It was a piece of graffiti found scratched on the wall of an ancient building which may possibly have been servants quarters on the Palatine Hill in Rome and is dated to have been been drawn around AD200.

It depicts a man worshipping a crucified man with the head of a donkey, and under it are scratched the Greek words "ΑΛΕΞΑΜΕΝΟΣ ΣΕΒΕΤΕ ΘΕΟΝ" which is presumably a phonetic miss-spelling of "ΑΛΕΞΑΜΕΝΟΣ ΣΕΒΕΤAI ΘΕΟΝ" ("ALEXAMENOS WORSHIPS [HIS] GOD"). Clearly, it was done to ridicule some poor Christian called Alexamenos. Interestingly, the Alexamenos Graffito is, so far, the oldest known depiction of the Crucifixion.
In another room in the same building, another piece of graffiti was found and dated to the same time period. It was simply two Latin words: "ALEXAMENOS FIDELIS" ("ALEXAMENOS IS FAITHFUL")

People at the time actually thought the Jews worshipped a donkey's head, and that Christians had adopted this practice. The ancient pagan Roman historian, Tacitus wrote his "Histories" in AD 109, and in Book 5 of his Histories he gives his version of the History of the Jews and accuses them of worshipping the Ass (see Tacitus Histories Book V)

So you see; there's nothing new under the Sun. Wink
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 09:19:19 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 09:27:05 AM »

yeah ozgeorge I actually have heard of the donkey head thing, I think it was in an article on Wikipedia about antisemitism. I wasn't actually sure what this idea even arose from?
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The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 12:58:11 PM »

Fwiw, here is a list of 20 threads that might have useful information on the subject. If you're not looking forward to trudging through 20 threads, I've suggested the following 4 threads in the past (though these deal primarily with the Old Testament):

Orthodoxy or Catholicism? The Scriptural Canon...
Question Concerning EO Canon of Scripture
Sources that verify the Canonicity of the Holy Bible
Different books of the Bible by jurisdiction

Essentially, there was no universal or nearly-universal agreement about what was in the New Canon before the late 4th century (also, note that Athanasius has the complete NT in 367, but it's not like he posted his list on the internet and the next day everyone just accepted it. Information exchange took years or even decades in those times. Even into the 5th century and later there are people--like Pope Innocent of Rome--subtracting from or adding to the New Testament).

The debates about the Old Testament are a different ball of flax seeds entirely. The canonicity and authority of the so-called apocrypha/deuterocanonicals/readable books were much disputed (despite the claims by both Catholic and Protestant apologists). The Catholics and Protestants did a pretty good job at forming an authoritative pronouncment or position in the 16th century, but the Orthodox still disagree somewhat even today. Part of the problem is, even though many early Church Fathers based their work on the Greek Septuagint translation, that didn't necessarily mean that they accepted everything in the Septuagint as canonical (also, the Septuagint itself was a developing collection of documents in the last two centuries before the common era, and wasn't originally created with all the books that we ordinarily associate with the Septuagint).
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 04:33:51 PM »

This kind of ignorance angers me beyond comprehension this is an excerpt from www.carm.org it is an "apologist" website defending the faith and "exposing heretical doctrines. This is just a taste of the type of answers given to questions! :


  Email:  What do you have to say about all the things I hear about how there were so many books burned by the church because it was in accordance to what they wanted. Is there proof that there are really only 66 books of the bible? Proof that there were books that really weren't burned?

     Response:  It is easy to make accusations that the church burned books.  But the Roman Catholic Church was not in existence until the late 200's early 300's as an organization -- but it did not become as structured and organized until sometime after that.  In addition, we have copies of manuscripts that predate the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.  It was the Christian Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, in the early church councils that recognize what was really Scripture.  Generally speaking, in order to be New Testament scripture the document had to be written by an apostle or under the direct guiding of an apostle.  The so-called missing books were never written by apostles nor were they written by anyone under the guidance of apostles so they were never supposed to be included in the Bible and the first place.  The early church recognized that these were false writings.
     It is the way of the devil to try and confuse the truth.  But, God through his sovereignty, worked through the church to establish the books of the Bible that we have today.


Has anyone been ignorant to the point of believing this claptrap! and also what can we do to help bring awareness to this blatant misunderstanding or history, the church and scripture?


 
I don't know.  Maybe you saw something at this site that I didn't see, but in searching www.carm.org for stuff on the Eastern Orthodox Church, I found nothing significant save for a statement that lumped us together with the Roman Catholics by saying that we believe the Apocrypha inspired.  Virtually all of the apologetics aimed at non-Protestant Christians were aimed at Roman Catholics.  Therefore, we should, IMO, understand CARM's anti-Catholic apologetics to apply solely to the RCC within the context of the continued Reformation/Counter-Reformation debates.  Much of this cannot be said to apply to the Orthodox, and the Orthodox would even agree with many of the anti-Catholic arguments put forth.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 04:38:58 PM »

Podromas: I think the website you are referring to is Jesusissavior.com.  It is one of the biggest collections of ignorance that I have ever had the nauseation to peruse.
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 05:02:37 PM »

Podromas: I think the website you are referring to is Jesusissavior.com.
Nah!  Prodromas was referring to this specific page at the CARM web site:

http://www.carm.org/email/bib_books.htm
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 05:14:05 PM »

One of the most profoundly ignorant statements I've had the misfortune of hearing was from a theology professor in college. When I brought up Judas Maccabeus, he claimed that the books of Maccabees were written by the RC as part of the counter-reformation. When I pointed out that they were in the LXX fourteen centuries earlier, he just shrugged his shoulders. Yeah, that was his great explanation. Shrugging the shoulders. What a moron.
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 05:32:14 PM »

in reply number 3: 

Quote
I forget the website but it was a site that pretty much disregarded all denominations as heretical (I know a fair bit about the protestant splits and it seems to disregard all MAJOR ones as heresy it must be some niche form of Christianity with 10 members all family lol), I was in awe at there fundamental misunderstanding of Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology. It was like a tabloid television program! they had random pictures of the church and people worshiping and using there logic to diffuse the situation, it was something like a saints bones were being paraded to be properly venerated and the quote describing the picture says "God allows worship to only himself and not other humans" and then pictures of a masonic symbol in a church saying "we know who runs this church (satan)" then possibly the most hilarious Orthodox standing around a phallus like statue stating that they worship the phallus, then with further evidence of this claim i beleive it was a traditional italian or ukrainian sweet shaped like a phallus, OMG the evidence is all there we are no better than pagans..... almost was on the ground crying I was laughing that hard!

That is the one that I believe to be the Jesusissavior website
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 05:32:32 PM »

I don't know.  Maybe you saw something at this site that I didn't see, but in searching www.carm.org for stuff on the Eastern Orthodox Church, I found nothing significant save for a statement that lumped us together with the Roman Catholics by saying that we believe the Apocrypha inspired.  Virtually all of the apologetics aimed at non-Protestant Christians were aimed at Roman Catholics.  Therefore, we should, IMO, understand CARM's anti-Catholic apologetics to apply solely to the RCC within the context of the continued Reformation/Counter-Reformation debates.  Much of this cannot be said to apply to the Orthodox, and the Orthodox would even agree with many of the anti-Catholic arguments put forth.

If they were more aware of Orthodoxy, they would be firing with both barrels blazing. Most of their arguments against Catholicism would also apply to Orthodoxy. Catholicism is just a more visible target. When Protestant anti-Catholics rant, it's about Mary, or images, or man cooperating with grace, or sacraments, or councils/Holy Tradition, or infant baptism. It's never about created vs. uncreated energies, the filioque, or other such esoteric things (from their perspective). To them, Orthodoxy would just be another Catholicism (and, in the wake of the protestantizing "spirit of Vatican II," a more abhorrent form of Catholicism) with a league of popes instead of one pope. If my Reformed father knew about theosis, he would be appalled. After, all, according to him, the Lord only throws a cloak of righteousness over our otherwise depraved souls.
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 08:18:11 PM »

Yeah when I was younger (and still get asked this question in my backwards town) are you Catholic or christian!! (enter flying kick to the back of the neck). Then when I said I was greek Orthodox they said "oh the one with Zues". Yeah it was www.jesusissaviour.com it is just so funny I couldnt be bothered refuting it had a picture of his holiness Pope John Paul bowing in front of a cross and  venerating a statue of the Theotokos citing an old testament line out of context "God says not to bow in front of idols". There is a point to were I cannot be bothered refutation because of the blatent misunderstanding of the concepts.
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The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 09:35:18 PM »

I remember my father's favorite theologian, John MacArthur, saying that we Catholics and Orthodox are following an ancient Babylonian mystery cult when we venerate the Blessed Mother and the saints.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2007, 10:04:15 PM »

A lot of the ignorance and nonsense that McArhur and those of his ilk write is taken almost directly from Alexander Hislop's book called 'The Two Babylons'.  It is replete with venomous rantings against Catholicism.  One Protestant minister, Ralph Woodrow,  disavowed his own book based largely on Hislop when he discovered by research that Hislop was way off base.
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2007, 11:20:05 PM »

I think I read many years ago a full length book from Jack Chick Publications that may have borrowed from Hislop.  FIGURES! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 11:40:04 PM »

Yeah it was www.jesusissaviour.com it is just so funny I couldnt be bothered refuting it had a picture of his holiness Pope John Paul bowing in front of a cross and  venerating a statue of the Theotokos citing an old testament line out of context "God says not to bow in front of idols".
How long ago did you last hit the jesusissaviour site?  I went to the site today and found it to be nothing more than a huge collection of links to sites where you can buy all things Christian.  They even have links to sites where you can buy rosaries and other RC religious items.  Clearly not what you say the site once was; they must have changed their focus or something.  Maybe the site owners saw the error of their ways and became Catholic. Shocked
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 12:26:07 AM »

I remember linking to one of their pages about Orthodoxy. It showed a lot of pictures of people kissing crosses and icons and made ridiculous comments. We all had a laugh over it. I think it was back when I first joined the forum. Hmm...
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2007, 12:38:40 AM »

The site address is http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/.  Check it out and you will see that they most certainly have not changed their ways and they are indeed one of the largest collections of ignorance available anywhere. (Orthodoxy has a place along with Catholicism, New Age Movement, and many others under their "False Religion" section) I was giving the name of the site as I remembered it but when I went back and checked this is the correct address.  Sorry for the confusion.
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2007, 12:48:17 AM »

Found my old post. These are the links I posted. They are a riot!

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/ro-idolatry.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/orthodox_idolatry.htm

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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2007, 12:50:50 AM »

The site address is http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/.  Check it out and you will see that they most certainly have not changed their ways and they are indeed one of the largest collections of ignorance available anywhere. (Orthodoxy has a place along with Catholicism, New Age Movement, and many others under their "False Religion" section) I was giving the name of the site as I remembered it but when I went back and checked this is the correct address.  Sorry for the confusion.
Okay.  I visited the correct site.  Only a site like that would peddle Jack T. Chick tracts.  The most ignorant pieces of BS I've ever read. Tongue

The only reason none of this makes me angry is that it's all so d***ed stupid!
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2007, 12:56:01 AM »

Peter, I have to agree with you. This site is stupid beyond description.

It is a little hard for me to find them funny because they are so serious about this BS and there are a great many people who swallow this without a critical thought in their head.
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« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2007, 01:06:08 AM »

Wow.....this must be a joke....seriously. Tell me this is a joke.

The music was a nice touch.
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« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2007, 01:15:53 AM »

Peter, I have to agree with you. This site is stupid beyond description.

It is a little hard for me to find them funny because they are so serious about this BS and there are a great many people who swallow this without a critical thought in their head.
I think the fires of hell are fed with the strawmen arguments these whackos put up. This stuff is funny, but not funny 'ha ha', funny 'O.MY.GOSH. That's about as close to visiting a cult's compound as I care to get. And I can see why some of you would find it humorous, after all, sometimes all one can do is laugh at stuff like this. But these sites are different. They attract not simply the fringe elements of society, but the sincere yet simple. I don't see any humor in it not simply because it blaspheme's our Lord and His Church, but because it hurts a lot of people's nous's by mixing a lot of half truths and lies. The simple people who truly are seeking our Lord are often the ones who fall for these deceptions. And as for the people behind these sites, they know that they're lying. Most of their arguments are really a strrrrretch. To find those pictures, they've had to do some research. They've had to come in contact with some of the Church's teachings, and no matter which ones you come across, it's nearly impossible to NOT see they're all Christ centered.  
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2007, 01:18:39 AM »

I was doing a bit of research on the deuterocanonical books and found this website which serves to prove that scholarly-sounding ignorance is ignorance still.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/rcc/rvb_apocrypha.html

There table of contents was enough to clue me in to their highly-prejudiced ignorance.
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2007, 01:31:15 AM »

What's that saying? The best way to conceal a falsehood (or mistake) is to hide it between two truths or facts? I haven't read the entire thing (just skimmed it), but they seem to have some correct ideas that Orthodox/Catholics might be suprised at*; unfortunately, the end result is, IMO, not very factual.


* For examples of what they get right, at least to some extent: 1) The Patristic Writers Were Far From Unanimous in Their Use of the Apocrypha; 2) The Majority of Early Christians Who Prepared Lists of the Old Testament Canon Specifically Excluded the Apocrypha; 3) The Mere Presence of the Apocrypha in the Septuagint Does Not Mean That the Apocrypha is Canonical
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2007, 04:08:54 PM »

...(and still get asked this question in my backwards town) are you Catholic or christian!!
LOL. When people see my Celtic cross, they ask me if I'm a Christian (OK, I can let that one slide because everybody wears a cross these days). When I tell them I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian, they give me a blank stare and then ask, 'So, do you believe in Jesus?" Hmm. I would've thought the 'Christian' part of Eastern Orthodox Christian should've covered that.  Huh If you go to church 'round these parts, you're either Southern Baptist or Assemblies of God (of coarse most of the other denoms are here as well but they're tiny tiny compared to the SB's and A of G's). The A of G's have their Headquarters here. It's huge and it's blueish. Yep. Blueish. Everyone calls it the Blue Vatican. Cheesy
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 04:09:50 PM by Jibrail Almuhajir » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2007, 04:20:43 PM »

^ Or the Blue Mecca. Rumour has it the AOG's pray to it five times daily.  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2007, 09:37:32 PM »

If someone hasn't said it already...

Avoid carm!!

It's disappointing looking back at how I was so misinformed by that site. It's really easy for people to believe that they have factual information, too. It's not just people who have a grudge against Catholicism or Orthodoxy that go to that site. Unfortunately, it attracts well-meaning, otherwise very knowledgeable Christians.

I think I was fooled by the footnotes!
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2007, 10:34:13 AM »

BANNED with PRIDE!  Grin
Your FFA moderator has achieved virtual banned status this day on the woeful forum sponsored by CARM. Probably deserved but they skipped over their own rules in doing so in an obvious attempt to shut me up. LOL!
Sad that the few Orthodox members there mostly cower under the bushes to avoid attention.
Wish they'd come here, but it's violating their rules to invite them.
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