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Author Topic: GiC's Sense that He is a Threat  (Read 7330 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bono Vox
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« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2007, 12:45:33 AM »

Quote
As to the other thread in particular... eh... some of us are hedonists  Grin

With who? Your lego land friends??  Cheesy
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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2007, 11:43:57 PM »

As to the other thread in particular... eh... some of us are hedonists  Grin

Ah, I think everyone is a hedonist at heart...some are just in denial, and others in recovery from said denial. Wink
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« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2007, 12:42:38 AM »

^^LoL, typical modernistic Orthodox spirituality displayed by some here........ Roll Eyes Please pass the cultural sign - up sheets this way haha.... Grin  Do I get bonus points for sleeping around and taking Eucharist in a state of mortal sin like its no big deal; plus coming to this forum displaying my sheer brilliance in interpreting Church canons & history through a lens of post - enlightenment thinking...? Dam son, I guess you are your 'own' man so to speak. The Orthodox would be wise to allow you speak at future conferences since you know so much about everything. 

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« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2007, 12:56:55 AM »

Do I get bonus points for sleeping around and going up and taking Eucharist and also coming here displaying my sheer brilliance in interpreting Church canons through a lens of post - enlightenment thinking...?

Silly man.... You only get bonuses for it during Great Lent!

Why don't you just summarize your comments with "walk the talk" or something like that?  That is the gist of your comments - that many of us are not living an Orthodox Christian life, and some of us are even proud of it - right?  I would agree. 

As for "typical" - I wouldn't label anything that GiC says as "typical."  Despite what he'd have you believe, I've been to a good number of parishes in 4 Metropolises of the GOA in 3 distinct Geographic regions and haven't encountered anyone who thinks like he does - some people espouse bits and pieces (especially feminism), but none come even close to his "whole package" of belief.

{I would also state that an Orthodox internet forum will never be a fantastic place to learn about the fullness of Orthodoxy, not until we add full video capabilities, and VR (or something like that), and tactile transmission systems (we can already transmit voice and picture over the Internet).}
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« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2007, 02:38:17 AM »

GIC

Quote
Ah, I think everyone is a hedonist at heart...some are just in denial, and others in recovery from said denial.

Probably true in many more cases that most would suspect. If only they would suspect... then maybe we could get the ball rolling faster!

Pipes,

Quote
With who? Your lego land friends??

I am quite adept at compartmentalizing. I don't let my hedonistic friends know about my lego hobby--or that I talk about theology on the internet for that matter--any more than I would tell you all about my "special" friends. Oh wait... Tongue  Kiss
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« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2007, 03:46:49 AM »

The threat I pose is more real, I represent mainstream Orthodoxy in the west, if slightly on the liberal side thereof, I scare them because I present a very real reality within the Church and one that is very attactive for people even in traditionally Orthodox countries, which are becoming more westernized. To become an atheist requires a major shift in belief and often an upsetting of one's social life and status, hardly a significant threat...but anyone can become a modernist, liberal, ecumenist like myself and not affect their social status or require a major life change. It's not like they don't let us ecumenists into coffee hour after liturgy.

GiC, I like you, I think you are sometimes funny, many times offensive and half the time I can't tell if you're just stirring the pot or you really believe some of the outlandish stuff you spout. But get real! Don't take yourself that seriously. You have been doing this schtick so long you are becoming a sort of a caricature by now, albeit one with the occassional penetrating insight or worthwhile worthy other point of view. But most of the time you are so over the top that anything positive you might add gets lost in your "shock jock" posts.

Dude, you ain't Howard Stern; get over yourself.
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« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2007, 04:18:20 AM »

The patristic ideas about arranged marriages, non-allowance of contraception, sexual positions, etc. are completely outdated. Morality develops (e.g., how many fathers arrange marriages for their 13 year old daughters these days? What is considered a substantial dowry these days?)  The Catholics have started to deal with the fact that their morality has changed over time. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but shooting the messenger isn't going to change facts.

As to the other thread in particular... eh... some of us are hedonists  Grin

Sorry, a dowry is a cultural arrangement. Arranged marriages at 13 are culrtural arrangements.  I will be vulgar here -moderators, do what you must! Forget about the Fathers. Jesus NEVER uttered a word about dowrys or age for marriage and choosing a spouse for your daughter. He did have alot to say about lust, adultery, fornication and divorce.

Jesus trumps all. End of discussion.

I will grant you that the sin of Onan as an argument against contraception, while touting "natural" family planning as okay is a verrrrryyyyyyyy loooooonnnnngggggg stretch that actually extends itself into nonsensical. Onan's sin had only to do with refusing to raise up heirs to his brother via his brother's  wife, and using her for his sexual pleasure rather than performing his economic duty toward her. It was an economical act and Onan didn't perform his duty out of greed and lust. I guess I am showing my protestant colors here, since that is from whence I came, but THAT is the plain meaning of the text - read it before anyone replies, Gen. 38:1-11. That's my story and I'm sticking to it). It was all about inheritance rights, which also protected the mother of the inheritors - in this case Tamar. Jewish inheritance laws protected mothers - it was not this patriarchal dominance that crushed women as the feminists would have you believe.

And BTW, to use that account in Gen. 38 to crush adolescents with guilt over masturbation is cruel and unworthy of Christian grace. There are alot of issues related to masturbation, primarily fantasy and lust, but spilling one's seed, ala Onan, is NOT one of them.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:42:15 AM by cleveland » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2007, 04:38:32 AM »

Asteriktos,
you seem like a nice guy, make pretty good sense alot of the time and come across as pretty humble and honest about your journey. Besides that, you are clearly a Western Pennsylvanian. So you got something going for you!

Occasssionally you spout your agnosticism in a flagrant manner that might suggest pride.

PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS. You are very well read. Perhaps too much so. Set all this busy learning aside. The kingdom is within you. Go back to your basic inner self. Go back to the liturgy. If you can, go back to a simple rule of prayer (no more than maybe the Heavenly King, Trisagion, Our Father, Come Let Us Worship God Our King, and some acknowledgment of the Theotokos). Remember your loved ones and your dearly departed before God.

Then enjoy your life man! Enjoy your wife and kids. Play guitar. Enjoy music. Do woodworking or something more constructive than theological/philosophical speculation.

And, to borrow a line from Pink Floyd, Run Like Hell from on-line forums and all this hubristic discussion.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 04:39:49 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2007, 10:14:25 AM »

Forget about the Fathers....Jesus trumps all. End of discussion.
BrotherAidan,

 While I think you could have worded your message differently, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying here. But the way your message was presented "Jesus trumps all", it has a very Protestant ring to it. Holy Orthodoxy is, and has always been, Christ centered. The Fathers (and Mothers) must always be quoted within the context that they were speaking (and sometimes they were still wrong- being human and all), but it's important for us all to understand that they LIVED what Jesus said and taught.

 In Christ,

 Gabriel

You're right Gabriel about wording the message.  I only edited the quote. - Cleveland, GM
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« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2007, 10:53:24 AM »

Occasssionally you spout your agnosticism in a flagrant manner that might suggest pride.
I would say that most of us who post here regularly are dealing with the passion of pride. I know I am. Also, by his own admission Asteriktos is atheist.

PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS. You are very well read. Perhaps too much so. Set all this busy learning aside. The kingdom is within you. Go back to your basic inner self. Go back to the liturgy. If you can, go back to a simple rule of prayer (no more than maybe the Heavenly King, Trisagion, Our Father, Come Let Us Worship God Our King, and some acknowledgment of the Theotokos). Remember your loved ones and your dearly departed before God.
The part about setting all this busy learning aside (or at least minimalizing it), is GREAT advice. Too many of us (MYSELF INCLUDED), spend too much time on gathering information (or spending time typing away on forums) instead of praying and seeking the Kingdom first. As far as asking an atheist to pray goes, atheists, by virtue of being atheists, probably aren't inclined to take up this advice. Depending how far along one is on the Disbelief<-->Belief continuum will determine one's willingness to pray. One who has doubts about God is far more apt to pray than one who outright disbelieves in God. Still, as frustrating as it may be at times, we're obligated through love, to pray for atheists and to continually gently ask them to consider another way of thinking. As Father Maximos says in The Mountain of Silence:
 "...whatever existential angst human beings may suffer from comes to an end once God manifests Himself in their hearts. Any doubts, questions, philosophical dilemnas, and puzzlement about God's existence that are 'natural to the fallen state' simply evaporate with such direct contact."
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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2007, 11:09:15 PM »

BrotherAidan,

 While I think you could have worded your message differently, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying here. But the way your message was presented "Jesus trumps all", it has a very Protestant ring to it. Holy Orthodoxy is, and has always been, Christ centered. The Fathers (and Mothers) must always be quoted within the context that they were speaking (and sometimes they were still wrong- being human and all), but it's important for us all to understand that they LIVED what Jesus said and taught.

 In Christ,

 Gabriel





You're right Gabriel about wording the message.  I only edited the quote. - Cleveland, GM


Gabriel
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that it sounds protestant: 47 years a protestant, 5 years Orthodox. Sometimes it is going to come out. And in one sense I meant it to sound protestant, just to get everyone's attention.

He struggles with belief and part of it is because some Fathers of the Church, who like us, were children of their own age, wrote some things regarding their opinions over some cultural practices, as if those practices were biblical doctrine, or even part of Holy Tradition?

That is where too much knowledge can get you chasing your tail. What they said may have been how to practice these cultural constructs in a Christian manner (much like someone might write today about how to date in a Christian manner; some might say that can't be done, but that's a topic for another thread). The Fathers may sound as if they are teaching dogma in regards to these practices that we no longer follow today but that is probably to mis-read them, or read too much into them. Probably it's just that the Fathers were right for their own time, but irrelevant on THAT subject for our time. That doesn't mean biblical dogma or Holy Tradition is irrelevant and subject to the subjectivity of cultural constructs.

Sometimes we make this Orthodox journey TOO difficult and should remember our protestant origins (if converts) or learn from protestants (if cradles). Not everything has to go through the filter of the Fathers. It's okay to see what Jesus said. it's okay to read your Bible.

If that still sounds too protestant, I am sorry. But that is truly what I think.

PS -- Cleveland, I also admit I was shooting from the hip and knew I could count on you to "clean up" the wording! Cool

« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 11:12:14 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2007, 11:18:11 PM »

Gabriel
What is the quote, Thou doth protest too loudly?
I am not sure that our friend is a permanent atheist (so he doth protest too loudly?) or is going through a burn-out stage that earnest young men with too much knowledge are prone to do.

I think the kingdom is within even atheists.

I also think that, by simplifying and concentrating on a few basic and important things, while returning to prayer and liturgy (his return to the chalice is between him and his priest) would do wonders for this friend in a short time.

So, yes I encourage him to pray.

Also, like you, I admit my pride and hubris in posting here. It's a catch 22 to mention it, isn't it?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 11:19:42 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2007, 11:21:47 PM »

Sometimes we make this Orthodox journey TOO difficult and should remember our protestant origins (if converts) or learn from protestants (if cradles). Not everything has to go through the filter of the Fathers. It's okay to see what Jesus said. it's okay to read your Bible.
To some extent I agree with you, for Tradition ultimately must start from, flow through, and return to the Scriptures.
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« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2007, 11:50:19 PM »

or learn from protestants (if cradles). Not everything has to go through the filter of the Fathers. It's okay to see what Jesus said. it's okay to read your Bible.

 I've said this before: when it comes to Biblical knowledge, we Orthodox must bow down to the Protestants. By that I mean that, as a whole, we don't read, study, or emerse ourselves in the Bible. So as far as it being OK to read your Bilbe, I'd say it's more than OK, it's incumbent on everyone of us to do so. Having said that, I also want to build on what PetertheAleut said. The reason why Protestants have over 5000+ denominations is because they interpret the scriptures without proper guidance. It's interesting to listen to two different Protestant denominations explain their particular theology while using the same Bible. We also use the same New Testament, yet because of Holy Tradition (in large part the Fathers and Mothers), we posses the fullness of Christ's teachings. If you and I were to set down and study the Scriptures for one year, making copius notes and explaining them as we understood them, more than likely we'd come out with two different churches. But because of Tradion (big T), this doesn't happen. Please forgive me if it sounds as if I'm talking down to you.

 As for the Kingdom being within atheists, I wholeheartedly agree. Who was it who said that everyone has a God-shaped hole in their hearts? And wasn't it St. Paul who said the commandments are written on everyone's heart? I could be wrong on that as I'm always forgetting.

 In Christ,
 Gabriel
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« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2007, 12:39:20 AM »

It might have been Pascal that talked of the God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God can fill

Yes, St. Paul discusses the law written on our hearts in great length in the first 3 chapters of the epistle to the Romans
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« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2007, 12:43:25 AM »

I've said this before: when it comes to Biblical knowledge, we Orthodox must bow down to the Protestants. By that I mean that, as a whole, we don't read, study, or emerse ourselves in the Bible.
Oh, I don't know if this is totally accurate.  Protestants often throw this accusation at us, but do they really know just how thoroughly the Bible pervades our liturgical services?  The Psalms provide most of the structure of our Vespers and Matins/Orthros services.  We read the Prayer of St. Symeon (Luke 2:29-32) for Vespers every evening and the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) for Matins/Orthros every morning.  The Divine Liturgy is just filled with biblical imagery (e.g., the Beatitudes for the Third Antiphon on Sunday mornings, many of the Eucharistic prayers), not to mention the readings from the Epistles and the Gospels.

I understand what you mean, though.  I'm quite guilty myself of not reading the Bible outside of church and studying it on my own.  I would certainly do well to immerse myself in the Bible more than I do.
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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2007, 12:46:42 AM »

Holy Tradition is something that the Church has gathered, what all everywhere believe. The Fathers helped define Holy Tradition for sure. But they did not created it. We have no magisterium in Orthodoxy. The Church validates what is true in the Fathers and that becomes Holy Tradition.

And Holy Tradition is the lense through which we must interpet the scriptures, so I agree with you there.

That is why when the complete Orthodox Study Bible is complete, it will a valuable resource for every day Orthodox Christians to read their Bibles and have some immediated guidance regarding interpretation.

Although, even without that resource, the Orthodox person who reads the daily readings ( we get a calendar every year with each day's epistle and gospel reading) will read the entire New Testatment every three years, along with alot of the psalms, prophets, pentateuch and Job (during Great Lent). Living the liturgy and asking the priest when a question arises, no Orhtodox person ought to fear reading the Bible, as if they may fall into protestant error.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 12:49:13 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2007, 01:05:29 AM »

no Orhtodox person ought to fear reading the Bible, as if they may fall into protestant error.
I think you've got your finger on the pulse there! Great insight. That's certainly, along with plain 'ol laziness, been the reason why I've been sort of cautious about reading the Holy Scriptures on a daily basis on my own.

Protestants often throw this accusation at us, but do they really know just how thoroughly the Bible pervades our liturgical services?  The Psalms provide most of the structure of our Vespers and Matins/Orthros services.  We read the Prayer of St. Symeon (Luke 2:29-32) for Vespers every evening and the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) for Matins/Orthros every morning.  The Divine Liturgy is just filled with biblical imagery (e.g., the Beatitudes for the Third Antiphon on Sunday mornings, many of the Eucharistic prayers), not to mention the readings from the Epistles and the Gospels.

This is very true, brother. I think what BrotherAidan was saying, and I think this is something we all agree with, is that we hear and sing the Gospels and other parts of Scripture, but we need to read them more often. At least I do, the epitome of a lazy and slothful Christian.
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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2007, 08:27:56 AM »


This is very true, brother. I think what BrotherAidan was saying, and I think this is something we all agree with, is that we hear and sing the Gospels and other parts of Scripture, but we need to read them more often. At least I do, the epitome of a lazy and slothful Christian.

yes, that is what I was getting at; and it really helps to have actually read the epistle and gospel before liturgy (kind of a pre-view)

also, during Great Lent, after most of the year with daily gospel readings, to be suddenly thrust back into Old Testament darkness, so to speak, and suddenly have no gospel - it's like wow!

The psalms become your friend, you cling to them out of gospel deprivation.

It's really a pretty awesome experience.
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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2007, 11:27:43 AM »

I think you've got your finger on the pulse there! Great insight. That's certainly, along with plain 'ol laziness, been the reason why I've been sort of cautious about reading the Holy Scriptures on a daily basis on my own.
 
This is very true, brother. I think what BrotherAidan was saying, and I think this is something we all agree with, is that we hear and sing the Gospels and other parts of Scripture, but we need to read them more often. At least I do, the epitome of a lazy and slothful Christian.

Gabriel,

I have been enjoying The Path on Ancient Faith Radio each day. Fr. Tom Soroka reads the Epistle and Gospel readings for the day and includes commentary from the Fathers on those readings. It is kind of like having a mini-Orthodox Bible study each day. Check it out here: http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/podcasts/thepath/

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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2007, 11:33:54 AM »

His homilies are good. Especially live - his parish is two miles from my home and on our circuit.

{Talk about a quickly growing Rust Belt parish - amazing!}
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