OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 23, 2014, 09:56:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: GiC's Sense that He is a Threat  (Read 7258 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« on: July 15, 2007, 02:41:31 AM »

Yep. Though my thoughts are usually along the lines of "How have I escaped being warned/banned all this time?" Grin I think Anastasios has been pretty clear over the years that if this forum is biased, it is biased towards allowing as much unfettered discussion as possible, so long as things don't become an ad hominem circus. Just my 2 cents...

The threat I pose is more real, I represent mainstream Orthodoxy in the west, if slightly on the liberal side thereof, I scare them because I present a very real reality within the Church and one that is very attactive for people even in traditionally Orthodox countries, which are becoming more westernized. To become an atheist requires a major shift in belief and often an upsetting of one's social life and status, hardly a significant threat...but anyone can become a modernist, liberal, ecumenist like myself and not affect their social status or require a major life change. It's not like they don't let us ecumenists into coffee hour after liturgy.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 03:25:09 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 03:23:59 AM »

I once questioned why you, a self-described atheist, would choose to join a Christian forum, when it looks as if you have no intention of returning to Christianity. BUT, I've never thought you should be banned. Perhaps more moderated than the Christians  Wink, but not banned.

Tow the party line or face censorship, you don't want to be called treasonous but you attack the most fundamental values of this republic and are disturbed by the freedom of speech? Undecided

Quote
GreekisChristian, on the other hand, is extremely hostile, antagonistic, and downright disrespectful to every single one of you who profess Christianity. He is argumentative for no other reason than because he dislikes Christians.

Ummm, just for the record I am under the Omophorion of His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco who is a member of the Synod of the Most Holy and Great Church of Christ. Furthermore, I have never spoken anything but praise in reference to His Eminence my Metropolitan and His All Holiness the Oecumenical Patriarch both of whom I hold in the highest esteem. I would assume where I to 'dislike Christians', I would hold their leaders in contempt; rather, I have submitted unto them and have consistently argued for the upholding of their canonical and imperial rights. Furthermore, I have consistently spoken well of my various professors at Holy Cross, who are academic leaders in the Orthodox Community in the United States, with perhaps one exception; I have even found myself strongly advocating their causes, opposed though they may be on this fourm. I could go on to give many more Christians towards whom I am not 'downright disrespectful' and most certainly dont dislike, infact many of whom I quite like.

It would seem that you have confused my dislike of fundamentalism and hypocrisy with a dislike of Christianity; and, in a way, I can see how this would happen in the world of 'internet orthodoxy', since there the three are often confused; however, you may (or may not) be surprised to learn that I have rarely encountered substantial disagreement, much less an exchange of hostility, in the real world. These things tend to be restricted to the internet where the extremes (and in the case of Orthodoxy, particularly the extreme right) tend to manifest themselves.

So, as we can see, your accusations are simply untrue; it's somewhat ironic that you launch an ad hominem attack (against which is one of the few censorship rules on this board) against me in a post where you call for increased censorship.

Quote
He has even said that he finds most people as worthless.

General critique of the homo sapien species, which if you had read my reasons you would see also includes myself; there's really no reason to take it personally.

It is imperative that we, at least occasionally, throw away all our preconceptions and dogmas to look at matters as objectively as humanly possible. To fear this is to fear truth.

Quote
He talks about other religions as being less than swine and dogs, and on more than one occasion has insinuated that Muslims should be exterminated.

Merely insinuated? I did no such thing. Wink

I have long openly stated that Islam, and by extension all Mohammedans, should be exterminated. Though I have also openly stated that the best possible manner in which this could occur would be the conversion of the entire Mohammedan race to Christianity, by which the Mohammedan would be destroyed in Holy Baptism through which the new man is born. And while I thank you for giving me credit for formulating these ideas, I fear I cannot take credit lest I be a plagiarist: our blessed and sainted Emperors and Patriarchs have said these things long before I.

Quote
And just for the record, I'm not necessarily calling for the banning of anyone, just more moderation. And the reason I'm calling for this is quite simple. If you were to walk into a building that had a sign saying Grocery Store and instead of groceries they were selling insurance, you would understandibly be confused. Likewise, a visitor to an Orthodox Christianity forum might expect to encounter Christians vigorously debating certain issues, but will understandably find it confusing to find members who are not only NOT Christians, but are openly hostile to Christians. And not only would they find that confusing, they would wonder why it is allowed to continue day after day. Huh

It would seem to me that your standards for 'Orthodox' are a bit skewed. In my arguments against the Mohammedans I have simply resurrected the arguments of the 'Byzantines', surely they can be regarded as at least nominally 'Orthodox'? In regard to my approaching the dogmas and praxis of the Church from the objective 'secular' perspective of historical theology, I am simply applying techniques taught to me by Orthodox Professors at an Orthodox Seminary, in some classes the roles of imperial politics and pragmatism in the evolution of Church doctrine were discussed at length.

I don't know what other topics you have taken issue with, but in most cases I'm willing to venture that my ideas are not somehow 'fundamentally opposed' to Orthodoxy, but rather are simply other ideas expressed within the Orthodox Church. (Perhaps ideas one does not wish to hear, but valid ideas nonetheless.)

Quote
OC.net is a safe haven for not only those who are Christians, but those who are sincerely seeking the Truth (or who are simply curious). One expects to encounter hostility and mockery in the 'real' world (and indeed, are asked to suffer for their beliefs), but not on a forum like this. And I submit that just because a person is a Christian does not mean they're supposed to accept constant bullying on a Christian forum. I don't enjoy being a pot-stirer, and I know that I'll be criticized for saying these things. I certainly don't want to tell our dear moderators how to do their jobs, but I think it's time that a little more action is considered.

In the past we have always welcomed debate from outside, I know several members who have encouraged non-Orthodox and even non-Christians to come here, present their arguments, and hash them out in debate. In the past, at least, this board has been used to facilitate the exchange of ideas more than to create warm fuzzy feelings inside people. However, you may find some allies here who want to change this.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 03:29:07 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,839


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2007, 03:36:26 AM »

The threat I pose is more real, I represent mainstream Orthodoxy in the west, if slightly on the liberal side thereof, I scare them because I present a very real reality within the Church and one that is very attactive for people even in traditionally Orthodox countries, which are becoming more westernized. To become an atheist requires a major shift in belief and often an upsetting of one's social life and status, hardly a significant threat...but anyone can become a modernist, liberal, ecumenist like myself and not affect their social status or require a major life change. It's not like they don't let us ecumenists into coffee hour after liturgy.
If much of what you post here is truly representative of modernist, liberal, ecumenist Orthodoxy, then we do have much to fear from you, particularly since you so often disparage the traditional Orthodoxy of so many people here--I'm not talking about excessive traditionalism--, and you do this as if you are a mouthpiece for the Orthodox Church.  You preach a Christianity that is not based on Christ and His Apostles, but rather on the politics of the Byzantine Empire and on human philosophy.  You essentially deny the providential work of the Holy Spirit within the Church, crediting virtually all of the Church's development to her interaction with the world.  You preach an Orthodoxy where worldliness and self-indulgence, rather than ascetic holiness, is the ideal.

This may be good if the Church is to be nothing more than a Greek philanthropic social club, but this is not the Church of Jesus Christ that grows out of the very life of the Eucharist and seeks to redeem a world that has fallen into sin.  This is not the Church that Christ and His Apostles exhorted many times to separate herself from the world.  From what I've seen, most posters here represent an other-worldly Orthodoxy that fights daily to preserve her identity as the Body of Christ, Who is Himself not of this world, against the ever-present threats of the modernism, liberalism, and ecumenism that you represent.  No wonder why your presence here is so threatening.


Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
-- Romans 12:2
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 03:38:37 AM by ozgeorge » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,839


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2007, 03:48:58 AM »

GreekisChristian, on the other hand, is extremely hostile, antagonistic, and downright disrespectful to every single one of you who profess Christianity. He is argumentative for no other reason than because he dislikes Christians.
To your credit, GiC, I did think Jibrail's statements above a gross exaggeration.  I may feel somewhat threatened by your presence here, but maybe I need to be challenged to stretch out of my comfort zone and address the points of view you often present to us.  Granted, you often go too far in stirring the pot, which often turns people off to what you want to say, but if you can improve your own self-moderation the incisive content of your posts can be a great asset to this site.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 04:18:55 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 04:05:30 AM »

If much of what you post here is truly representative of modernist, liberal, ecumenist Orthodoxy, then we do have much to fear from you, particularly since you so often disparage the traditional Orthodoxy of so many people here--I'm not talking about excessive traditionalism--, and you do this as if you are a mouthpiece for the Orthodox Church.

I dont really understand why everyone is so concerned about my rhetorical style, it's almost as though you're arguing that were I to present my opinions poorly it would be fine, it's only when I present them effectively that there's a problem. Do I use weak words like 'believe', 'think', 'hope', 'opine', etc.? Sometimes, but only very sparingly, but everyone should have learned and mastered that particular element of prose by the end of the 9th grade. However, neither do I commonly use phrases like 'the Orthodox Church teaches' or 'the Orthodox Church believes', the closest I'll usually get is 'the fathers proclaimed' and when I say that it's generally true; of course the opposite is also often true, but on most issues there has been disagreement in patristic sources, which I've made clear in several arguments.

This may be good if the Church is to be nothing more than a Greek philanthropic social club, but this is not the Church of Jesus Christ that grows out of the very life of the Eucharist and seeks to redeem a world that has fallen into sin.

But in so many instances I have seen the 'Greek philanthropic social club' element is central to the life of an Orthodox community, one cannot simply dismiss these communities that are in full communion with their Bishop who is in full communion with the Church because they do not meet one's personal ideal of what the Church should be. What I generally suggest is a move from idealism to realism, instead of speaking of the Church in terms of what we want it to be, let's address it as it really is right now, let's address how the Church is actually conducting itself, rather than how we believe it should.

Quote
This is not the Church that Christ and His Apostles exhorted many times to separate herself from the world.  From what I've seen, most posters here represent an other-worldly Orthodoxy that fights daily to preserve her identity as the Body of Christ, Who is Himself not of this world, against the ever-present threats of the modernism, liberalism, and ecumenism that you represent.  No wonder why your presence here is so threatening.

'Most posters here', perhaps, but what one finds from 'most posters here' is not what one finds amongst the average Orthodox layman (or, in many instances, even amongst the average Orthodox clergyman). While I openly admit to being on the liberal side of most theological issues, I submit that I honestly believe the positions I opine to be closer to those held by the average Orthodox layman (at least in the United States, I have not traveled enough in traditionally Orthodox countries to make a definitive statement about them, but the rates of fornication and abortion in Greece, at least, seem to speak volumes to me) than the positions presented by 'most posters here'. It would seem that the divisions between 'most posters here' and myself represent a very real and existing divide within the Church as a whole; a divide that would behoove us all to address rather than deny.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 04:15:21 AM »

it's only when I present them effectively that there's a problem.
"Effectively" is such a relative term......
In "effect" I often find you boorish, so I don't bother replying to your posts. You've "effectively" made me not want to bother replying to you, no matter how valid my points are. So, if that is the "effect" you are after, then, mission accomplished.
Personally, I can't see the point.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 04:29:59 AM »

"Effectively" is such a relative term......
In "effect" I often find you boorish, so I don't bother replying to your posts. You've "effectively" made me not want to bother replying to you, no matter how valid my points are. So, if that is the "effect" you are after, then, mission accomplished.
Personally, I can't see the point.

I am sorry that my straightforward and proletariat demeanour offends, I fear I did not have the privilege of an aristocratic upbringing. Is there, by chance, anything more particular than my family's social status and the derived cultural elements present in my education with which you take issue?

And while I may be rhetorically capable of exchanging simple straightforwardness for Orwellian doublespeak, would this truly be preferable?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,839


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 04:34:08 AM »

I am sorry that my straightforward and proletariat demeanour offends,
Straightforward and proletariat does not require that you be rude and insulting.

I fear I did not have the privilege of an aristocratic upbringing. Is there, by chance, anything more particular than my family's social status and the derived cultural elements present in my education with which you take issue?
What does your upbringing have to do with the price of tea in China?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 04:42:36 AM »

Straightforward and proletariat does not require that you be rude and insulting.

I always thought of myself as abrasive, which may at times border on rude, especially in a society where diplomatic formalities are the norm; but insulting?

Quote
What does your upbringing have to do with the price of tea in China?

Everything, in this globalized economy Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,839


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 04:45:51 AM »

...but insulting?
Where do I start? Wink
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 04:49:00 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2007, 04:46:09 AM »

What does your upbringing have to do with the price of tea in China?
In the Church, we are all called to be good mannered, and never rude, (I Corinthians 13:5) since this is one of the hallmarks of Love- the basis of the Gospel.
In Greek, the word used for "good mannered" is "ευγενικός".
"Ευγενικός" (pronounced "ev-yen-i-KOS") and comes from the root "ευ", meaning "good" and "γενι" meaning "birth". A good mannered person is someone from a "good birth". It is where we get the names "Eugene" and "St. Mark Evgenikos". Unfortunately, in English it is used for "eugenics".
But "ευγενικός" meaning "good mannered" only makes sense in the Church, since in the Church, we are all born from the same water and the same Spirit.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 05:05:56 AM »

I, for one, am so glad to read that GiC thinks himself Orthodox. I had gotten the impression that he was merely an Orthodox seminary trained Neo-Roman or modern Hellenist; after all, being Orthodox and being seminary trained are not 100% mutually inclusive.
As to his 'average Orthodox layman' - that is HIS opinion and not one I share, at least from the parishes of several jurisdictions here in Pittsburgh that I've visited consistently over the last year.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Jonas Suender
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 111


« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2007, 05:36:41 AM »

I have long openly stated that Islam, and by extension all Mohammedans, should be exterminated. Though I have also openly stated that the best possible manner in which this could occur would be the conversion of the entire Mohammedan race to Christianity, by which the Mohammedan would be destroyed in Holy Baptism through which the new man is born.

This isn't Orthodoxy; this is religious fascism.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 05:37:58 AM by Jonas Suender » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2007, 06:53:56 AM »

I am sorry that my straightforward and proletariat demeanour offends, I fear I did not have the privilege of an aristocratic upbringing. Is there, by chance, anything more particular than my family's social status and the derived cultural elements present in my education with which you take issue?

And while I may be rhetorically capable of exchanging simple straightforwardness for Orwellian doublespeak, would this truly be preferable?

You're being boorish again.
Good manners, and respect for others is not a result of aristocratic upbringing. Au contraire, the ability of the aristocracy to ignore the plight of the poor, and exploit the economically vulnerable could hardly be called "good manners". People with good manners do not seek to dominate or have power over others.
See my reply here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12152.msg164837.html#msg164837
The claim that anyone with good manners must be a snob is self contradictory. Snobbery is not good manners.
If your points are valid, then they will remain valid if expressed politely, courteously, without having to put anyone down.
"Manners makyth man." (William of Wykeham {1324 - 1404})


« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:38:09 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2007, 12:43:05 PM »

You're being boorish again.

You use a word thats etymology is simply 'peasant like' (from Old Dutch, same etymology as Boer, in fact), and you expect me to take offence or view it in a negative fashion? Customs and modes of speech and behaviour are cultural distinctions, and I am supposed to be upset that I do not fit yours?

Quote
Good manners, and respect for others is not a result of aristocratic upbringing. Au contraire, the ability of the aristocracy to ignore the plight of the poor, and exploit the economically vulnerable could hardly be called "good manners". People with good manners do not seek to dominate or have power over others.
See my reply here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12152.msg164837.html#msg164837

I disagree, manners have nothing to do with the essence or intent of your actions and everything to do with the mode of delivery.

Looking at the etymology of the word, it's from the Vulgar Latin manuarius 'belonging to the hand' to the Old French maniere with a primary sense of 'mode of handling' to Middle English manere to Modern English manner, preserving the Old French meaning with the primary modern meaning in the OED given as 'The way in which something is done or takes place; method of action; mode of procedure.' Manner is a procedural word, one that references how something is done, not the intent. Ignoring the poor or exploiting them economically may, by some people's standards, be immoral but it is not 'bad manners', per se; unless, of course, one's means of exploiting the poor is to act like the poor and conduct the formalities in a vulgar fashion, but so long as one uses economic and bureaucratic forces, is chivalrous in speech, does not offend their dinner guests, and keeps eating with the proper utensils they have good manners regardless of the suffering they are inflicting on others.

Quote
The claim that anyone with good manners must be a snob is self contradictory. Snobbery is not good manners.
If your points are valid, then they will remain valid if expressed politely, courteously, without having to put anyone down.

Must they? Perhaps not, but traditionally, at least from the perspective of the lower classes, they have. Of course, the aristocracy may disagree, they're not 'snobs', they're simply better.

Quote
"Manners makyth man." (William of Wykeham {1324 - 1404})

An appropriate motto for one who rose from the ranks of the middle class to the top of English society in the 14th century.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2007, 01:22:24 PM »

Manner is a procedural word, one that references how something is done, not the intent.
That's right. And the "manner" in which something is done is not morally neutral (unfortunately for you, the rest of your post depends on it being morally neutral).
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2007, 01:27:33 PM »

Sigh...this is such an entertaining thread.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 01:35:44 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2007, 01:39:23 PM »

I always enjoy GiC's ravings. Some I agree with, some I do not, but I have never doubted he was a Christian. I don't know where someone got he was an athiest.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 01:39:49 PM by Simayan » Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2007, 01:57:39 PM »

That's right. And the "manner" in which something is done is not morally neutral (unfortunately for you, the rest of your post depends on it being morally neutral).

I don't believe manners to be issues of morality, rather they are issues of culture, they are relative not absolute. There is a plethora of actions or sayings that while perfectly acceptable in one culture are entirely unacceptable in another; it cannot be said that one is 'right' or another is 'wrong' rather they are relative to one's culture and class. And this has been my point, you have attempted to equate the conduct of the Aristocracy with morality and I refuse to make this association. I believe my ancestors, who were of the lower agrarian classes, to be quite moral, despite the fact that they were crude, harsh, barbaric, and even rude by your Aristocratic standards of 'manners'.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2007, 02:04:28 PM »

you have attempted to equate the conduct of the Aristocracy with morality
Where?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2007, 02:15:39 PM »

Where?

In "effect" I often find you boorish, so I don't bother replying to your posts. You've "effectively" made me not want to bother replying to you, no matter how valid my points are.

That's right. And the "manner" in which something is done is not morally neutral (unfortunately for you, the rest of your post depends on it being morally neutral).

It is morally neutral unless you absolutize a particular mode of operation as the standard...which is culturally imperialistic to say the least. You suggest that the manners of the proletariat classes are uncouth by claiming that you don't bother replying to my posts because I act like a 'boor', that is to say a pesant. You have repeatedly assaulted my manners, using the standards of chivalry as your guide and have implied that I am immoral because I reject these standards.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2007, 02:23:35 PM »

I see. So a series of your own mental associations is the same as me equating the conduct of the aristocracy with morality.....
....sigh......Thank you for your latest instalment in "The World According to GiC"
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 02:23:53 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2007, 02:37:32 PM »

I see. So a series of your own mental associations is the same as me equating the conduct of the aristocracy with morality.....
....sigh......Thank you for your latest instalment in "The World According to GiC"

So am I mistaken, and you actually do believe that 'boorish' conduct is both acceptable and moral?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2007, 02:44:25 PM »

So am I mistaken, and you actually do believe that 'boorish' conduct is both acceptable and moral?
I see. So the negation of a series of your own mental associations is the same as me agreeing with you that boorish conduct is both acceptable and moral.
Thank you for yet another instalment in "The World According to GiC"
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2007, 02:58:27 PM »

I see. So the negation of a series of your own mental associations is the same as me agreeing with you that boorish conduct is both acceptable and moral.
Thank you for yet another instalment in "The World According to GiC"

The question wasn't rhetorical Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2007, 03:31:05 PM »

I always enjoy GiC's ravings. Some I agree with, some I do not, but I have never doubted he was a Christian. 
 
 I second that.  This has a feeling of a witch hunt about it. Either ban him or get off his back.


    Mo
Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,839


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2007, 04:07:33 PM »

I don't believe manners to be issues of morality, rather they are issues of culture, they are relative not absolute. There is a plethora of actions or sayings that while perfectly acceptable in one culture are entirely unacceptable in another; it cannot be said that one is 'right' or another is 'wrong' rather they are relative to one's culture and class.

It is morally neutral unless you absolutize a particular mode of operation as the standard...which is culturally imperialistic to say the least. You suggest that the manners of the proletariat classes are uncouth by claiming that you don't bother replying to my posts because I act like a 'boor', that is to say a pesant. You have repeatedly assaulted my manners, using the standards of chivalry as your guide and have implied that I am immoral because I reject these standards.
Let's put your high-falutin etymologies aside for a minute, for they only strike me as your vain attempts at self-justification--as a former housemate of mine liked to say, you're trying to be your own lawyer.  To some degree, this site has established a particular mode of operation as its standard.  Regardless of how you define such terms as "boorish" and "mannerly", as they apply to the standard this site tries to maintain, to come here with little to no respect for our standards of decent behavior just to arouse controversy and dissension is indeed quite boorish and ill-mannered.  I've been to other discussion boards where your debate tactics are actually welcome, but compared to the standards of this OC.net board your debate tactics are indeed rather rude.

Manners an issue of culture, and therefore relative?  Sure.  But to visit a culture different from yours and behave in a way that the culture considers ill-mannered just to offend is immoral.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 04:17:12 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2007, 04:34:37 PM »

I second that.  This has a feeling of a witch hunt about it. Either ban him or get off his back.
So, if we talk about things, we're witch hunting, and if we ban people, were "over censoring". There's just no pleasing you is there? Wink
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2007, 04:47:37 PM »

Let's put your high-falutin etymologies aside for a minute, for they only strike me as your vain attempts at self-justification--as a former housemate of mine liked to say, you're trying to be your own lawyer.  To some degree, this site has established a particular mode of operation as its standard.  Regardless of how you define such terms as "boorish" and "mannerly", as they apply to the standard this site tries to maintain, to come here with little to no respect for our standards of decent behavior just to arouse controversy and dissension is indeed quite boorish and ill-mannered.  I've been to other discussion boards where your debate tactics are actually welcome, but compared to the standards of this OC.net board your debate tactics are indeed rather rude.

Ummm, I think I was here before you, so I didn't come and upset the standards you'd come to accept...ozgeorge may be able to make that argument, but I've read through many of the debates, especially over the EO/OO issues that were on this board before I came and it doesn't seem that I was the first to bring an agressive debating style to this forum.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2007, 06:26:31 PM »

I honestly enjoy reading GIC's posts. I don't quite understand why some of you put him under the microscope all the time. He does make this forum a little more interesting. Grin I hope he sticks around.
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2007, 09:20:06 PM »

especially over the EO/OO issues that were on this board before I came and it doesn't seem that I was the first to bring an agressive debating style to this forum.
That`s for *** sure!!! Peter , maybe your taking this thing a little to personal.

***Profanity removed. (Don't "take it personal") Wink
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:40:06 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,987


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2007, 12:38:17 AM »

Tow the party line or face censorship, you don't want to be called treasonous but you attack the most fundamental values of this republic and are disturbed by the freedom of speech? Undecided

 Let's start from here. To begin, this is a forum for Orthodox Christians on the world wide web, and not a republic. There is no republic online. Secondly, 'freedom of speech' doesn't necessarily apply here; witness the fact that 1) you've been warned on numerous occasions for what you've said 2) another poster on this very thread has had a portion of their post removed for profanity 3) there are numerous rules and guidelines that one must agree to before becoming a member here and finally 4) we have moderators for a reason.

 Secondly, far from being anything remotely resembling a witch hunt, this has to do with the question of moderating. I will not repeat myself by re-posting the problems I see with GiC's posts, nor will I quote him again on this matter. I will repeat that I am not necessarily calling for his being banned, but I would like to see more scrutiny and moderating of all posts to ensure that the terms, rules and guidelines are being followed. Remember, we all, by joining this forum, volunteered to be scrutinized and held responsible. I find it a bit strange that I could be accused of censorship for holding someone responsible for not following said rules; if that makes me a censor then so be it. And for the record, I hold myself to these standards as well. When I was moderated some time back for making an unChristian statement, I apologized not only to the person I directed it towards, but also to the rest of you. From that time on, I've held up my end of the bargain and I expect nothing less from the rest of you. If you're having trouble doing so, the moderators are here to help you or at least redirect your efforts. If the moderators cannot be accomplish this, then this forum is just Christian in name only. I did not join this forum to see if my faith was true or not. I did not join this forum to have my faith attacked. I expected a debate here and there, but not the type of debate that routinely takes place here. Had a knock down, dragged out fight been my objective, I could have joined any number of forums.

 Lastly, I do not see GiC as a personal threat to me (I've been a target of many of his bombastic rantings and come out just fine thank you very much). Rather I'm concerned that his comments (and others as well) could potentially put off someone considering becoming a member here. A more timid person, or one who simply finds arguments distasteful, but never-the-less be very interested in Orthodox Christianity, might simply skip on us based on what the pre-reqs for joining say compared to what he/she reads here. I can handle it, but I do not enjoy being belittled or debated on every single point I try to make, esp. from one who calls himself a Christian, on an Orthodox Christian forum in a manner that is not consistent with Christianity. I wonder how many folks have simply moved on because of this? Look at the membership and you'll notice that there are thousands of members here, yet maybe 50 to 80 whom are active. Since you can't delete your account, we have no way of knowing whether they are still with us, but my guess is probably not. And though my concerns are perhaps not the reason why they've left us, I'll wager a good deal that many have for just this reason.

 God bless each and everyone of you,

 Gabriel

« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 01:16:06 AM by Jibrail Almuhajir » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2007, 01:30:33 AM »

^^Good points above sir... Wink I personally would have been inclined to look past Orthodoxy if all I initially had from the beginning was this forum to learn and gather information about the Orthodox faith when I decided that Protestantism was not for me. This unfortunately is a real possibility for many others out there in a similar predicament and may not have an Orthodox Church close enough to them to investigate further. Many of the active forum members here would be more fit to be part of the Episcopal, Unitarian, or United Methodist Church because their viewpoints seem to be more in line with those Church bodies than the Holy Orthodox Church (As an example, just take a look at some of the attitudes expressed on some of the recent threads dealing with areas of morality, such as the recent fornication threads where those who hold to the traditional Orthodox line are scrutinized). I'm not trying to say that only Orthodox Christians are welcome here or that healthy debate should not be denied. I also didn't join the Orthodox Church because I wanted to be part of some cultural club or to enjoy good meals at social hour, but to work on being in union with Christ. I have to wonder sometimes about the intentions about some of the people on this forum.   
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,493



« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2007, 01:45:12 AM »

Quote
Look at the membership and you'll notice that there are thousands of members here, yet maybe 50 to 80 whom are active.

Fwiw, that isn't abnormal for internet discussion boards, especially ones that have been open for years. Also, many thousands of posts have been made by regulars who are no longer around (e.g., two of the top ten posters no longer post here, and account for over 5,800 posts).
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2007, 08:10:45 PM »

I don't think greek should be banned from the board. I don't personally take him seriously like some of you do. I would say that if he upsets you, just put him on the ignore list and you won't have to bother with him ever again. Let him say whatever he wants. Like some of you, I don't understand why Greek is Orthodox since he doesn't really believe in the teachings of the church (judging by his posts). It seems like he is just more of a Greek cultural enthusiast who is Orthodox because he likes the greek culture, or is one of those people who like to live in the past (since he thinks the byzantine empire was like the golden age) and can't move on. Whatever the reason, I just don't get him. I think he might be more at home in the unitarian church?
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2007, 08:21:08 PM »

he doesn't really believe in the teachings of the church (judging by his posts).
You need to own that statement.
What you should have said was "I don't think he really believes in the teachings of the church (as I pass judgement on him by his posts)."
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2007, 08:29:35 PM »

I don't think he really believes in the teachings of the church (as I pass judgement on him by his posts)

I guess all is relative in orthodoxy right?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 08:30:36 PM by Orthodox Bagpiper » Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2007, 08:46:50 PM »

I guess all is relative in orthodoxy right?
That's right. We are all relatives because we are all related.
We share a bond closer than human blood ties. We are bonded in the Blood of Christ.
 Smiley
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2007, 08:46:57 PM »

Quote
^Good points above sir... Wink I personally would have been inclined to look past Orthodoxy if all I initially had from the beginning was this forum to learn and gather information about the Orthodox faith when I decided that Protestantism was not for me. This unfortunately is a real possibility for many others out there in a similar predicament and may not have an Orthodox Church close enough to them to investigate further. Many of the active forum members here would be more fit to be part of the Episcopal, Unitarian, or United Methodist Church because their viewpoints seem to be more in line with those Church bodies than the Holy Orthodox Church (As an example, just take a look at some of the attitudes expressed on some of the recent threads dealing with areas of morality, such as the recent fornication threads where those who hold to the traditional Orthodox line are scrutinized). I'm not trying to say that only Orthodox Christians are welcome here or that healthy debate should not be denied. I also didn't join the Orthodox Church because I wanted to be part of some cultural club or to enjoy good meals at social hour, but to work on being in union with Christ. I have to wonder sometimes about the intentions about some of the people on this forum.   


As usual, I agree with you Nacho. You are a man wise beyond your years. I am often shocked at how so many "Orthodox" can't even agree upon basic morality, or yield to what the church teaches. Thank God my first experience with the Orthodox were amongst groups who took the faith seriously and didn't try to liberalize it. The Orthodox need to stand with a united voice on what is right and what is wrong.
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2007, 08:53:37 PM »

I am often shocked at how so many "Orthodox" can't even agree upon basic morality, or yield to what the church teaches.
Yeah, so am I! Especially when people who say they are Orthodox can't even agree on the most basic moral teachings, like "Pass no judgement" and "Love thy neighbour".
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2007, 09:44:06 PM »

Quote
Yeah, so am I! Especially when people who say they are Orthodox can't even agree on the most basic moral teachings, like "Pass no judgement" and "Love thy neighbour".


Oz,

Thanks for the judgement.

If observing that people who claim to be orthodox and do not believe in Orthodox teaching makes me judgmental, then so be it. Just because I observe that someone doesn't hold to Orthodox teaching doesn't mean that i don't love them either (which you have judged me on that as well). I guess I would be passing judgment on arius, joseph smith, john calvin, the dalih lama, charles darwin, ect.. by saying that they didn't believe in the teachings of Orthodoxy. When people reject the teachings of the church and it is pointed out by someone, I guess it is "just being judgmental" . Like Nacho pointed out, the theologically and morally liberal beliefs that many on the board espouse is scary. It goes against the teachings of the church. It is truly disappointing many Orthodox cannot agree to basic morality. I guess if you stand for morality, then you are just being like a "protestant" or a "pharasie". I would revert you back to the threads on morality that Nacho was talking about just to clarify any confusion.
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,493



« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2007, 11:32:38 PM »

Pipes,

Quote
I don't think greek should be banned from the board. I don't personally take him seriously like some of you do. I would say that if he upsets you, just put him on the ignore list and you won't have to bother with him ever again. Let him say whatever he wants. Like some of you, I don't understand why Greek is Orthodox since he doesn't really believe in the teachings of the church (judging by his posts). It seems like he is just more of a Greek cultural enthusiast who is Orthodox because he likes the greek culture, or is one of those people who like to live in the past (since he thinks the byzantine empire was like the golden age) and can't move on. Whatever the reason, I just don't get him. I think he might be more at home in the unitarian church?

Far from being a harsh judgment, I think you actually just restated what GIC himself has said in the past, in posts like this one, for example. Wink  Grin
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2007, 12:00:47 AM »

^^OB, it truly is both frustrating and disappointing at times to read some of the views on this forum. Like I previously stated, I would have been inclined to pass on Orthodoxy if this forum was all I had to initially judge Orthodoxy. I also agree with you that a certain degree of judging is required when what people espouse here is obviously in conflict with the teachings of the faith. That's just common sense and some of the posters know they are going to get a reaction from us more traditional practicing Orthodox. When people live in sin or knowingly stray outside the bounds of what the faith is, they of course will make any justification or use any argument they can to defend themselves. An example of what I'm referring to are threads dealing in areas of morality such as the recent fornication thread. Those of us who want to live out the Christian faith living and believing in a holy manner as the saints prescribed should not feel ashamed or referred to as Pharisees as I have recently seen on this forum.

 I also don't believe people like GIC should be banned because I do believe in the principle of free speech, but I'm also shocked at the wishy washy relativistic pervading attitudes here and feel that sometimes those who hold to a more traditional Orthodox view are outnumbered and ganged up on. I'm just wondering why such a modernistic attitude appears to be so pervasive here when I would think that those who really take the time to learn Orthodoxy more (seminary, books, websites such as this) would really be into their faith and be staunch defenders of what the faith has always been. I'll end this with saying this is a bad witness for anyone who may be interested in Orthodoxy who comes here to not find defenders of Orthodoxy, but modernist who want to mold the church into some neo - religious relativistic utopia. As an aside, why is it when I go over to a Roman Catholic forum like Catholic.com we don't find such pervasive secular viewpoints? I'm astonished at the orthodoxy and tradional views of thousands of members that post their who defend what their church teaches and give 'definite' answers to real moral dilemmas.     
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,493



« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2007, 12:31:25 AM »

Quote
Those of us who want to live out the Christian faith living and believing in a holy manner as the saints prescribed should not feel ashamed 

The patristic ideas about arranged marriages, non-allowance of contraception, sexual positions, etc. are completely outdated. Morality develops (e.g., how many fathers arrange marriages for their 13 year old daughters these days? What is considered a substantial dowry these days?)  The Catholics have started to deal with the fact that their morality has changed over time. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but shooting the messenger isn't going to change facts.

As to the other thread in particular... eh... some of us are hedonists  Grin
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 12:31:49 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2007, 12:41:28 AM »

^^Wow, nice examples you gave... Roll Eyes I'm sure we could dig up more that would be antiquated today. You of course are taking small bits and pieces of a whole which puts your example out context. Bishops, and more particularly saints didn't sit there and dwell on such examples that you gave and beat people over the head with it. They were more concerned with seeking union with Christ, alleviating the suffering of their fellow man, and living out the spirit of the law. 

Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 72 queries.