Author Topic: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers  (Read 20574 times)

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Offline GiC

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2007, 12:48:27 AM »
GIC,

Just take your muti-labled self behind the wood shed and...

With luck it might make it on youtube...

james

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Offline recent convert

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2007, 07:51:32 AM »
Peter,     regarding the interface on my quotes mentioned in reply #58: each time this has happened other posts were registering and mine had already generated even though the system then prompted me for a review.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2007, 12:58:04 PM »


Most people have never taken Christ seriously either, I am in good company.

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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2007, 01:00:42 PM »
Whatever that means.  ???  ::)
Well, he does run a website called "My Martyrdom." It fits that he would be looking for persecution where it ain't.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Ebor

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2007, 05:45:30 PM »
It has been a common occurance, Ytterbiumanalyst, that some people work it out as "The Scriptures say that the righteous/truth tellers/etc.  will be persecuted.  People don't agree with me or accept what I say without question.  Therefore I am persecuted and that means I'm right."  There's a logical flaw there, I know.  ;)

Ebor
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2007, 06:35:55 PM »
It has been a common occurance, Ytterbiumanalyst, that some people work it out as "The Scriptures say that the righteous/truth tellers/etc.  will be persecuted.  People don't agree with me or accept what I say without question.  Therefore I am persecuted and that means I'm right."  There's a logical flaw there, I know.  ;)

Ebor

Yes. And also, "martyros" in Greek, AFAIK, does not mean "one who is persecuted." It literally means "witness" - right, o ye knowing Greek? :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 06:36:19 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline prodromas

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2007, 07:57:47 PM »
I don't understand Hopeful Faithful (as I'm sure most dont either) but I read through this whole post and he seems to have had trouble answering any questions so ill make it easy.
  • If you are against electricity, internet, motor vehicles or anything remotely modern why do you continue to use these "devilish" things?
  • What evidence can you give that the old believers hold the "untainted" holy Apostolic and Catholic church?
  • What latin innovations do the Eastern Orthodox currently contain?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2007, 09:41:01 AM »
I don't think his inability to answer the questions has anything to do with how we asked them.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline The young fogey

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2007, 11:01:22 AM »
Good point about the meanings, plural, of martyros but again that site either exemplifies or sends up self-destructive convert pathology, inconsistencies and all. ('Modern technology is evil!' But the person is online.)
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Offline recent convert

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #99 on: July 26, 2007, 11:27:43 AM »
I feel sorry for Hope and Faithful, much of his anguish re: this world may be heartfelt and surely no one can condemn his solution to live as an Old Believer as not moved by the Holy Spirit. It is however not the only solution and caution should be taken to avoid appearing as trying to be John the Baptist when actually being a pharisee. Perhaps with proper prayer and fasting he will work it out.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2007, 11:06:35 PM »
I feel sorry for Hope and Faithful, much of his anguish re: this world may be heartfelt and surely no one can condemn his solution to live as an Old Believer as not moved by the Holy Spirit.

Yet, from what he has written he does *not* live as an Old Believer.  He talks/writes about it.  But he has not moved to a place where there is a group of Old Believers. He does not worship with any congregation of any stripe I would surmise from what he wrote about not considering there to be any real and proper Bishops on this planet.  He would seem to be quite assured that he is Right and most others (including some Old Believers who are not 'pure' enough or something) are Wrong.  It is really 'anguish' or is it that he has formulated some opinions and is sure of his own ideas and judgements?  He seems quite free to declare that other EO bodies are 'insulting' God, that he *knows* that others are Wrong and his own way is the correct way.  But he is not living the life, by his own admission. 

Quote
It is however not the only solution and caution should be taken to avoid appearing as trying to be John the Baptist when actually being a pharisee. Perhaps with proper prayer and fasting he will work it out.

It seems to me that there aren't many who are called to be like St. John the Baptist, though they may *think* they are.  Most people have much more ordinary paths that God has called on them to walk, maybe.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2007, 11:09:39 PM »
Good point about the meanings, plural, of martyros but again that site either exemplifies or sends up self-destructive convert pathology, inconsistencies and all. ('Modern technology is evil!' But the person is online.)

In looking over the site, I found my thoughts switching between "This has got to be an elaborate parody" and "He seems to be in deadly earnest."  It almost gave me a mental whip-lash.  ;)

Ebor
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2008, 11:00:42 PM »
To give the Old Believers some credit, they do follow certain traditions that I think the whole Eastern Orthodox Church should follow. This would include having longer church services (many places have shortened them), having more traditional icons, and more traditional music (monophonic). The first of three I think is most important of all, and a very big issue in America. In places like Russia and Greece, the church still keeps the whole service, but we fat lazy Americans (including me) like to sit in our pews and are used to a 1 hour service once a week (I know, churches are not quite that bad yet). What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies? In some Russian churches, they can make the liturgy 6 hours, stand the whole time, and endure it without a heater.

What's interesting is everything mentioned above had nothing to do with the Old Believer Schism, but Peter the Great "reforms." I think Old Believers broke off partly because of the harshness in which Patriarch Nikon imposed his reforms. Therefore the church held an ecumenical council and demoted him to monk. But what do Old Ritualists have against his reforms when they were in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church also for 600 years?
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Offline prodromas

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2008, 11:20:06 PM »
To give the Old Believers some credit, they do follow certain traditions that I think the whole Eastern Orthodox Church should follow. This would include having longer church services (many places have shortened them), having more traditional icons, and more traditional music (monophonic). The first of three I think is most important of all, and a very big issue in America. In places like Russia and Greece, the church still keeps the whole service, but we fat lazy Americans (including me) like to sit in our pews and are used to a 1 hour service once a week (I know, churches are not quite that bad yet). What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies? In some Russian churches, they can make the liturgy 6 hours, stand the whole time, and endure it without a heater.

What's interesting is everything mentioned above had nothing to do with the Old Believer Schism, but Peter the Great "reforms." I think Old Believers broke off partly because of the harshness in which Patriarch Nikon imposed his reforms. Therefore the church held an ecumenical council and demoted him to monk. But what do Old Ritualists have against his reforms when they were in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church also for 600 years?

Sometimes there are those that love traditions more than Christ.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2008, 01:00:06 AM »
Just out of curiosity, are the old rituals still allowed in canonical Orthodox Churches? I know the anathemas have been lifted, but is it wrong to do the old rituals? I really don't see any reason why we would still do them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:01:18 AM by antiderivative »
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2008, 07:47:04 AM »
Just out of curiosity, are the old rituals still allowed in canonical Orthodox Churches? I know the anathemas have been lifted, but is it wrong to do the old rituals? I really don't see any reason why we would still do them.

Yup it is allowed, the ROCOR has some Old-Rite parishes and Bishop Daniel of Erie is the Vicar of the President of the Synod of Bishops for the service of Old Believers.
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2008, 05:26:35 PM »
An interesting thing is that Old Believers call the Nikonion Reforms Latin, but don't they have some old Latin ideas? Like the scripture can only be in Old Church Slavonic. Ironically, Cyril and Medthodius got beat up by certain Latin clerics (only some, the Pope wasn't against the two) for translating the scriptures into Slavonic (at this time Old Church Slavonic). Although Catholics don't believe in this anymore, this seems very similar to the old Catholic stance that the scriptures should only be in either Greek, Latin, or Hebrew (the languages written on the Cross), or else it is an unholy language. I don't understand what made Old Church Slavonic a "Holy" language and Church Slavonic an "unholy" language.
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Offline Eugenio

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2008, 01:34:10 AM »
Antiderivative wrote:

"What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies?"

 ::)

Methinks Antiderivative does not have any kids. When you have children, you may rethink the wisdom of 4-hour liturgies!

Okay, so Russian services are 6 hours long. So what? Though I've never been there, everything I've read has stated that Russian church attendance rates are dismal even after the fall of Communism (as is true for almost all European countries) when compared to the U.S.

So I think if we wanted to decrease church attendence rates in our own country, insisting on 6-hour services would be the most expedient way to do that!  ::)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:35:25 AM by Eugenio »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2008, 08:33:42 AM »
Eugenio, you have some very good points. There are times my eight-month-old daughter is screaming on Wednesday evening, and we rethink going to church just for the daily Vespers (about 35-45 minutes at my parish). She can usually make it okay through our hour-and-a-half Liturgy; the music keeps her interested, and sometimes she can nap. But it's never long after Liturgy concludes that she gets herself all worked up.

I think if we did serve St. James' Liturgy or another equally long one, we'd probably just show up for the last couple of hours anyway. It'd be a shame to miss half the Liturgy, but it'd be better than having to leave early and missing the Eucharist.

And I do believe we'd see a lot fewer converts if we had such a long Liturgy. Protestants and Catholics alike are accustomed to 1 to 1 1/2 hours. If we were in the days of tent revivals still, we may see Protestants with such stamina, but we just don't these days. St. John's Liturgy and St. Basil's are both beautiful, and neither takes longer than two hours. Since we have these Liturgies available, I think it would be prudent at this point for the American Church to use them.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 08:34:01 AM by ytterbiumanalyst »
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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2008, 10:19:38 AM »
I'm not sure what my great-grandmother did with 12 children at liturgy in church slavonic? To be fair I think the older children sang in the choir, served on the altar and helped with the babies!I mean Matins beforehand and in those days they read the bulletin as well since no one had copiers.  My grandmother had 8 children they took to mass.. but I know how that went.  I'm still afraid to fidget or turn around in church  :police:
But there isn't any need to pile on prayers just to make a service longer for aesthetics or feel goodness in a parish.
A parish isn't a monastery.  On the one hand it would be nice to see people say "Father can we have Matins before Sunday Divine Liturgy if we get a few people together to sing it."  But on the other hand just piling on prayers to make things longer because it seems more "Orthodox" isn't a valid reason to do so.  Prayer done with quality is better than prayer done for quantity. 
And truthfully Vespers is an evening service and Matins is the morning Service.  So the need to stand in church for 6 hours on a Saturday night isn't more "Orthodox." 
I realize it is a Russian small tradition (somehow people get small tradition mixed up with Tradition) to have hours Vespers hours Matins hours with Confessions on Saturday evenings but it isn't the tradition of the entire Orthodox world. 
While visiting a Monastery may pump you up and make you think every parish should be in church most of the weekend before Sunday Liturgy that's not how it flies in the parish.

And remember there really is no "I" in team.  I realize (haha I used I) that we Americans often think we have some right to always say "I this, I that, I want, I like, I don't like, I think..." but when it comes to the Body of Christ, the Church, the community of gathered believers united by the Eucharist there isn't really an "I" per se.
So while some of us may want this or that we must remember that there are others that belong to the parish as well and have different circumstances  etc..  that the priest pastorally guides the flock the best he can and be fair to all. 
For instance in many parishes around here you won't find Matins.  Shocking, surprising, oh my!  Not really.  It takes people to sing Matins.  Often in parishes one person was the professor/cantor/choir director.  Many times the cantor knew all the details and so forth for just about all the services.  She could have told you that on this feast day you sing this while Father blessed that and walked around the tetrapod thrice and did this and you sang that in tone 6 but then went back to tone 2 because that's the tone for that feast. 
So what happens is that the cantor passes on and the knowledge and organization dies with her.  Or something happens in the parish after her passing or when she's in the nursing home.  Anyone that would have remembered half of what she knew either left the parish or moved. In the meantime services go from Church Slavonic to English which equates to a huge change as well and without the leadership of the cantor/choir director who knew everything in Church Slavonic to help the transition... I mean a million different things happen and there are many reasons.  So then you have different people that may not know exactly how to serve/sing all the services.  So really as complicated as my post seems it shows that there are often reasons larger than our own and more complex as to why somethings just don't occur in all parishes. 

« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 10:23:42 AM by username! »

Offline EofK

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2008, 10:28:30 AM »
^Agreed, and regarding what you've mentioned above, I would love to learn more about why certain tones are used for feasts versus a "normal" Sunday (if there is such a thing ;)).  Part of the problem in my parish is that we have a hard time getting the choir together for practice and our directress has a long drive back home where she usually works in the evenings.  Our choir just doesn't have much time together to learn and practice what we should know.  That affects singing matins (which is usually done by our directress, Mr. Y, and me), any special parts of the liturgy (like commemorating the saints), etc.  We have few people who are really interested in choir and come to services regularly.   :'(
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Offline CalloftheTor

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2008, 04:44:56 PM »
I am really interested in the choir and the liturgy in general ( coming as I do from a tradition without one ) but I can't sing.   :P Is there a way I can still be involved/learn a lot???
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 04:48:07 PM by CalloftheTor »
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2008, 01:32:04 PM »
Sure! I couldn't sing either before I joined the choir. I just stood next to another bass and tried my best to copy what he did. After doing this every week for over a year, eventually I found I could hold a tune myself. Many times the best way to learn to do something is to do it.
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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2008, 03:03:58 PM »
I am really interested in the choir and the liturgy in general ( coming as I do from a tradition without one ) but I can't sing.   :P Is there a way I can still be involved/learn a lot???

Take some voice lessons.  I'm not joking either, I'm being serious.  It'll help and think even professional singers probably still have some form of a coach.

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2008, 03:48:59 PM »
Sure! I couldn't sing either before I joined the choir. I just stood next to another bass and tried my best to copy what he did. After doing this every week for over a year, eventually I found I could hold a tune myself. Many times the best way to learn to do something is to do it.

I agree.  Before I started attending a Greek Catholic church I couldn't hold a tune.  After 8 years of singing prostopinije, I have found that I can do so now, so much so that my wife was astonished at how well I sung one of my band's songs on a homemade demo a couple months ago.  Even I was surprised.  It's not great, but it's not caterwauling, either.  I believe singing is one of those things that everyone can do at least passably.  Some can do it out of the gate while most need to practice at it, some more than others.  You might not end up sounding like a professional singer, but you'll be able to at least use the range you have once you know how to do it. 

Find someone who can sing and ask to be their shadow.  Don't expect to hit all the notes, especially the high/low ones.  Learn what your voice is capable of and how to control it so you can follow along.  Don't be afraid to fail or come up short from time to time.  You'll get the hang of it and once you learn the basics of control, don't be afraid to push your limits a bit.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2008, 03:49:50 PM »
Take some voice lessons.  I'm not joking either, I'm being serious.  It'll help and think even professional singers probably still have some form of a coach.

You are quite correct in this.  I know a voice teacher who numbers professionals and semi-pros among her students.  

Ebor
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2008, 06:18:28 PM »
You guys are getting off topic. We were talking about how Old Believers, myself included, are superior, and have preserved the faith.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2008, 06:19:18 PM »
3......2.......1.......

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Re: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2008, 06:35:26 PM »
You guys are getting off topic.
Indeed!  Please, everyone, back on topic.
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