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Author Topic: The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers  (Read 17692 times) Average Rating: 0
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fatman2021
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« on: July 13, 2007, 07:50:47 PM »

I have found that the traditional Old Believers of Russia are worth taking a good look at. It was about 1000 years after Christ that the ruler of Russia took it upon himself and his resources to seek out the one Faith which the Lord has always been giving to the human race for Life. This ruler, Vladimir the Great, spared no expense, giving the task to the most qualified in his kingdom. Such a good thing is rarely done for so many by one man of mortal means. After traveling the entire known world these duty bound specialists returned with this account; that they had been to something so astonishing, so extraordinary and so wondrous that they did not know if they had been in heaven or on earth. They had encountered precisely that, heaven on earth. This was at Constantinople, the New Rome, Byzantium to some.

Sadly the New Rome fell to the mongoloid muslims and Russia was then accepted as being the Third Rome, a forth there never shall be. There has not been another faithful Christian believing empire on earth since Holy Russia. In the 17th century the wicked Russian patriarch Nikon and the rather new Romanov dynasty began contradicting the good teachings of the Lord. Peter the Great, in his love affair with Western Europe, continued the spiral downwards. The good people of Russia who took courage and held strong to the established Faith were more valiant than we can even imagine. This precious little flock of the pure Old Slavonic speaking people are now scattered all around this world. They called themselves Staro-obriatsi, or Keepers of the Old Rites, the term is sometimes translated Old Believers. The Old Believers are also known in Russian as zavolzhskie startsy. None of the Nikonian Latin reforms were accepted by the faithful and strict Old Believers.

The state church called the Old Believers schismatic, but as the Old Believers were the ones to keep the faith unchanged it is actually the other way around. How sad things are, the Holy Russian Empire consequently died the miserable death of antichrist ecumenism, satanic freemasonry and atheistic communism, losing Orthodoxy and falling into the Great Apostasy the remainder of the earthly impostor churches. The gross Nikonian practices have led to this state of affairs. Many of those who claim to be Old Believers, who had for centuries and generations accepted the temporary priestless existence, have now gone to modern minded false orthodoxy for fake priesthood. This new orthodoxy has been a lie since it started. What a terrible time to now accept this style of impostor orthodoxy, it is worse than ever. The faith and practices of the traditional Old Believers is nearly being destroyed and their way of life is all but extinct because of the threat of modern ideals.

Today capitalism, commercialism, modern democracy, industrialization and overall moderation spiritually distract us from what is right. Humanity, generally speaking, is very unable to understand what it is missing. The times we are in have affected the very last remaining expression of the true good old days. We should not be so surprised, for the Lord explained that when He returns there will be no Faith to speak of. That it would be like the days of Noah, when one man and his family were the only ones to rise above the destruction. And it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those in the end, for lonely Lot lost his wife to worldly pride. And don't forget the many other examples which speak so loudly, such that even the deaf could hear, should they care enough to bother to be keeping on always seeking what is right.

Ten years ago I heard of the Old Believers and I continue a dedicated and thoughtful study. Any input would be appreciated, for I do not know everything. I will do what I can to place references to this topic for other interested parties. Below are links to pages with further information.

I lean toward those of the more strict and traditional “priestless” Old Believers. I might also add that the term “priestless” is a misnomer and is not fair for people to be using. It is said by many that this persecuted group rejects the priesthood. Nothing could be further from the truth. All their clergy were murdered by the Nikonian Russian Orthodox state church. The good family of traditional Old Believers earnestly wants and hopes for a good option to the condition this world finds itself in now. In a short time this might be rectified. Taking on a false priesthood, as some have done, is only more corruption. Grace does not cease to exist even in a world like we are in. In the ancient Church the laity were understood as being part of the Royal Priesthood of all believers, they would baptize those who were worthy, if they were far from a priest. The final priestly duties would be fulfilled later, at whatever time the opportunity might arrive. Those who found themselves baptized in such a way would not be thought of as any less Christian. Those who would die in faith without baptism, say as martyrs, are explained as having had a baptism in their own blood, their desire having made them worthy (Axios). Here is something else I found along these lines:

If someone is preparing for Baptism, or is favorably disposed in this way, and if there is danger of their dying before he/she can be baptized, any lay man or woman “has the right, and indeed the duty, to perform the rite by thrice repeated immersion, or even by aspersion, or by pouring of water on the bed, with the words, ‘the servant (or handmaiden) of God (name) is baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages. Amen.’ Such a baptism is entirely valid, as far as it goes. Later on, the priest does not repeat the rite, but only completes it by saying the omitted prayers and performing the omitted rites, then enters it into the church register.”

(From – A Manual of the Orthodox Church's Divine Services)

I see the traditional Old Believer stand, those who continue in the strict and straight way, as properly retaining the authentic Faith. God is more than able to complete and fulfill anything that might be lacking in them.

 

I also have made some pages about Old Belief  Distinct Points of Faith

 

General Information Links

 

There are other significant aspects that need to be noted as well. The modern Orthodox churches have now concluded that Old Belief was, and is now, right and correct. The Old Believers cannot be schismatic if they were only doing what has always been done by faithful Christian people from the beginning. The only way to maintain the Faith is to be keeping the Faith that always has been. The modern Orthodox continues giving up the Faith once for all given to mankind for Life. After Nikon did the work of the state, and was deposed for it, there were even more ruthless characters that replaced him. Actually, some of the Nikonite reformers were so confused that in their efforts to be aligned with the apostate Greeks they actually missed the mark completely, creating something conforming to nothing. Something else to understand is that the Old Believers do hold contempt towards the late Czardom of Russia but still honor the good old tradition of the Greeks from where Russia first received the Faith. A small group of Old Believers accepted clerical priesthood from Greeks when they moved into their sphere. These Old Believers became just “another rite” to the Greeks. As this situation of living with the Greeks was while under Turkish rule it would be safe to say that it was done under threat of death and that these Old Believers were weak in the Faith.

Source: http://mymartyrdom.com/old.htm
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 08:19:33 PM »

the mongoloid muslims

"mongoloid"?  <insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow here>  What does that word mean *to you* and what historical texts have you read that used it please?

Quote
None of the Nikonian Latin reforms 

"Latin" reforms?  Yet in some of your earlier rants they were described as "greek". On what do you base calling them Latin please?

And just for the record, the way that Nikon acted was harsh and (in this person's opinion wrong), but I don't see much difference in how you are declaring that there is Only One Right Way(tm).

Quote
Ten years ago I heard of the Old Believers and I continue a dedicated and thoughtful study. Any input would be appreciated, for I do not know everything. I will do what I can to place references to this topic for other interested parties. Below are links to pages with further information.

I lean toward those of the more strict and traditional “priestless” Old Believers.

Do you actually belong to a parish?  Participate in weekly services with others?

Quote

There are other significant aspects that need to be noted as well. The modern Orthodox churches have now concluded that Old Belief was, and is now, right and correct.

Which EO churches? citations please?  And is it the praxis that is considered right?  In what way was *belief* in the basic doctines different as opposed to *praxis*? 


Ebor
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 08:29:05 PM »

Trolls don't answer, Ebor.

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 08:29:43 PM »

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I see the traditional Old Believer stand, those who continue in the strict and straight way, as properly retaining the authentic Faith. God is more than able to complete and fulfill anything that might be lacking in them.

So, essentially, you don't actually need the Church, since God will guide you correctly if you just stay faithful to him. In other words, Protestantism is justified within your ultra-(un)traditional world view. Interesting. Cool
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 08:59:40 PM »

Trolls don't answer, Ebor.



That has become very clear.  The reason I wrote what I did, was for any lurkers to offer questions.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2007, 03:52:46 PM »

Viewing the web site to which Fatman linked us (www.mymartyrdom.com), I noticed some things about the strict Old Ritualist group to which the site author, John Alden, belongs that should trouble most evangelically-minded Orthodox.  Let me point out some quotes from this site.

From the site's home page:
Quote
Scripture cannot be translated into unholy language like English or modern Russian, so we should not make much of the “Scripture” quotations found here.

From http://mymartyrdom.com/v.htm
Quote
Language

What a wondrous gift Russia was given in that old Inspired language of the Church. They were given something very rare, an opportunity to learn from as pure a source as there ever was, the pure Church language given specifically to them by God. The validity of this language is unquestionable. Now the world has almost lost this most unique and beautiful expression of the Faith. Nikon changed the spelling of Jesus putting into oblivion the good memory of the proper spelling. The pure old Slavonic word for Jesus is very close to the ancient Arabic “issa” so there is precedence for the old Russian practice. In the Eastern Syriac language the name is spelled similarly to the pure old Slavonic as “ishou”, and it is not wise to overlook any of these. I do believe that the apostles and even the Lord Himself spoke like this. It is only false fear that would cause anyone to change the good established way.

“Everyone is aware of Nikon’s substitution of Iisus for the pure word Isus (Jesus) and of Nikolai for Nikola (Nicholas). “in the shadow of Antichrist” David Scheffel, page 139.

The one known as Theophan the Recluse was chastised by his bishops for attempting to translate liturgical language into the conversational use, so even heretics know something about this.

The traditional missionary practice of the Orthodox Church has always been to preach the Gospel and translate the Scriptures and service books into the languages of the indigenous people to whom we preach so that they can understand and participate.  During the missionary work of Ss. Cyril and Methodius and, later, Prince St. Vladimir (whose memory we commemorate tomorrow in the New Calendar churches) Slavonic was the native language of the Russian people.  But as time progressed, the Slavonic language in Russia evolved into modern Russian--languages do this.  Now most Russians don't understand Slavonic except for what they might hear in church; they certainly don't speak this tongue in their daily relations, AFAIK.  Does not our traditional focus on making the Scriptures and service books understandable to the average churchman require, then, that we continue to update the language used in these sacred books to reflect the idioms of the current vernacular?  IMO, the Orthodox should be very uncomfortable with any sentiment that venerates an ancient language as divinely inspired, considers the modern language vulgar and unfit for sacred use, and thus refuses to update its church language.  (The strictest Old Ritualist adherence to Old Slavonic also strikes me as quite phyletistic in its Russian nationalism, but I guess that's more properly the subject of another post.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 03:59:37 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2007, 04:31:17 PM »

Quote
The traditional missionary practice of the Orthodox Church has always been to preach the Gospel and translate the Scriptures and service books into the languages of the indigenous people to whom we preach so that they can understand and participate.  During the missionary work of Ss. Cyril and Methodius and, later, Prince St. Vladimir (whose memory we commemorate tomorrow in the New Calendar churches) Slavonic was the native language of the Russian people.  But as time progressed, the Slavonic language in Russia evolved into modern Russian--languages do this.  Now most Russians don't understand Slavonic except for what they might hear in church; they certainly don't speak this tongue in their daily relations, AFAIK.  Does not our traditional focus on making the Scriptures and service books understandable to the average churchman require, then, that we continue to update the language used in these sacred books to reflect the idioms of the current vernacular?  IMO, the Orthodox should be very uncomfortable with any sentiment that venerates an ancient language as divinely inspired, considers the modern language vulgar and unfit for sacred use, and thus refuses to update its church language.  (The strictest Old Ritualist adherence to Old Slavonic also strikes me as quite phyletistic in its Russian nationalism, but I guess that's more properly the subject of another post.)

Actually, I have met several Old Believers here in America who actually suggest traditional English for Liturgy as it wouldn't make sense for one to use a foreign language.  One has to remember that the Old Believers are not a homogenius group, even those similar and many in fact considered Old Believers are not.  Also, Mr Alderman and fatman were neither raised in the Old Believer sects and I suspect that neither have much contact with them either.  Thus, take their word with a grain of salt.
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 12:20:55 AM »

I have found a good OrthodoxWiki article about Old Believers.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers Old Believers
READ ALL
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 05:45:13 PM »

Is it just me, or has fatman2021 posted a link to the Wikipedia article that does not yet exist (has not yet been written)? That's what my screen says...
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 06:42:32 PM »

fatman, i see that OrthodoxForum (orthodoxforum .com/ ) is also receiving the benifit of your guidance.
Here are 2 more places you can go bite a bandwith-sandwich:

byzcath. org/ *

monachos. net/library/Main_Page **

not an Orthodox site (according to you no one is really Orthodox) but you outta sign up on RosaryArmy .com just we can start a pool on how many minutes it would be before you're banned. Roll Eyes

* there are lots of Latin and Eastern Rite Catholics there you can berate  Cool

**these folks really know thier stuff on there...you'll get a virtual whuppin', but in a nice oh so polite British Eaton_Oxford way Wink
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 07:32:09 PM by Crucifer » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 08:52:12 PM »

fatman, i see that OrthodoxForum (orthodoxforum .com/ ) is also receiving the benifit of your guidance.
Here are 2 more places you can go bite a bandwith-sandwich:

byzcath. org/ *

monachos. net/library/Main_Page **

not an Orthodox site (according to you no one is really Orthodox) but you outta sign up on RosaryArmy .com just we can start a pool on how many minutes it would be before you're banned. Roll Eyes

* there are lots of Latin and Eastern Rite Catholics there you can berate  Cool

**these folks really know thier stuff on there...you'll get a virtual whuppin', but in a nice oh so polite British Eaton_Oxford way Wink

Your On...
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 11:35:00 PM »

Crucifer,

Thank you so much for recommending us. Wink

Anyone want odds on how long he takes to get himself banned?

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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 01:10:33 AM »

Is it just me, or has fatman2021 posted a link to the Wikipedia article that does not yet exist (has not yet been written)? That's what my screen says...

No, the article exists. fatman just neglected to learn how to properly insert a link into a post. Understandable, he is busy alienating every member of this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

By the way, nothing is more effective at convincing me of a person's intellect and firm academic approach than their weak grasp of basic English grammar. Not.
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 01:47:08 AM »

By the way, nothing is more effective at convincing me of a person's intellect and firm academic approach than their weak grasp of basic English grammar. Not.

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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 02:04:53 AM »

Connecting some statements from the Wikipedia article to some research I've done for this thread:

Quote
Modern readers may perceive these alterations as trivial, but the faithful of that time saw rituals and dogmas as strongly interconnected: church rituals had from the very beginning represented and symbolised doctrinal truth.

Quote
The circumstance that the church reforms of Nikon concerned mainly liturgical texts and rituals sometimes leads to a view of the Old Believers' faith as being extremely conservative, not able to develop, and preferring form to content. From an Old Believer's point of view, the idea of contents a priori prevailing over form appears simplistic. To illustrate their response, consider poetry. If one converts a poem into prose, the "contents" of the poem may remain intact, but the poem will lose its charm, emotional impact, and much of its ability to influence an audience's reaction; moreover, the poem will essentially no longer exist. In the case of religious rituals, form and contents do not just form two separable, autonomous entities, but connect with each other through complex relationships, including theological, psychological, phenomenal, esthetic and historic dimensions.

These aspects, in their turn, play a role in the perception of these rituals by the faithful and in their spiritual lives. Considering the fact that Church rituals from their very beginning have had a connection with doctrinal truth, changing these rituals can have a tremendous effect on religious conscience and a severe impact on the faithful.


I wonder how much the conflict that led to the Old Believers' schism is really grounded in the dispute between the Possessors and the Non-Possessors of the previous century.  The Possessors, following after St. Joseph, advanced quite strongly the Russian nationalist Third Rome doctrine and emphasized a life of prayer that was very communal and guided by strict rules and discipline.  In contrast, St. Nilus and his Non-Possessors preached that the Church must maintain some level of detachment from the affairs of the state and advocated the inner and personal relationship with Christ in mystical prayer.  The Possessors won the majority of the Russian hierarchy and suppressed the ideas of the Non-Possessors, thus making St. Joseph very influential on Russian life in the next (17th) century.  One can see St. Joseph's influence in the Old Ritualist emphasis on strict rules governing the external form of worship and in the Old Ritualist opposition to all things coming from the "apostate" Greeks.
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 03:23:48 AM »

I think there are personality types that become fundamentalist protestants, hard core latin rite RC's and the type of old believer that fatman expresses (also some Orthodox traditionalists)
I think the religion is just what happens to be there for that personality to use to beat up on others.
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 02:42:11 AM »

Greetings OrthodoxChristianity.net, I am from San Diego, California

I noticed a thread from here was referencing my website, so I thought it might be good to make some comments. I am at an introductory level to the strict Old Believers from Russia known as the Pomorsky.  I appreciate this opportunity to express a few things about matters of Faith, as matters of Faith matter more to me than anything else. The few people today that have heard about Old Believers drastically misunderstand the position they take. The Internet is truly not the best forum for straightening out all the issues, but perhaps one or two people might begin to have a better grasp of issues if we can go over them.

Anyone can test and prove things well enough to find the truth. If people care to know specific sources of mine I will be glad to work at offering them. Several things should be understood from the start. The English language was always forbidden by the early Christians to use in prayer, worship or scripture, because it is a tradition of men made by witches. English simply does not have the tools to properly express the things of God. Man generated electricity is strange fire like the strange incense warned against by the prophets of old. Petroleum products, like plastics, synthetic clothing and man made chemicals are the remains of the damned dead people, plants and animals from things like the flood and Korah, etc. They are black and stink, spiritually defiling and ungodly. It is the demons that carry the data/voices back and forth between computers/telephones. It is the demons who inspired people to use such things because they will ultimately be part of what is known as the Mark of the Beast. These things are simply not Christian.

Having said that it must be understood that we all must start somewhere. Truly, Pandora’s box has been opened, so I for one intend to use all at my disposal, to use the wickedness all around me against itself. At least until I find a way of escape or find a truly safe spiritual harbor from which to live. So, in the meantime I will use such things as are compromising, simply because we are all presently in this compromise to begin with. The most loving thing there is would be for those that find a glimmer of hope in such times as these to offer it to all those around them. As it is said of the Church Fathers, “silence of consent” so how can anyone keep quite with such wickedness all around us? For me the following words from the “English” Gospels by Christ are loud and clear, “They who are offended by Him will be sifted; but whom He shall judge they will be utterly destroyed”. Matt. 21:44 Better to be offended now than judged later! Computers are metal that thinks, something which is unnatural and dangerous, so beware.

The good Old Russian Faith is something worthy of discussion on any forum, sadly few recognize this fact. The reason for this is that it is now the only currency in the economy of salvation, a point which should matter to everyone on earth. For those that think that hydrogen cars are the solution to our problems, I would say think again, as they too use much wicked petroleum.

We all make our choices, as for me I want to simply learn how to obey God. I have found the strict Old Believers to be the last Christians and worthy of following their good example. It should be clarified that the “Official Russian Church” are those who departed the established Christian Faith, not the Old Believers. How can the Old Believers have caused any schism if all they are doing is keeping that authentic Faith which was originally given to them?

The rest of the “Orthodox world” at the time of Nikon had long gone into the Great Apostasy with the Latin’s. What Nikon did succeed to Latinize the Russian Church in many and various areas doctrine and practice. Faith and practice cannot be separated, as much as the some would like us to think. So the truth is that Nikon made the schism, not the Old Believers.


The last person with an original idea was Adam, and that was a bad one. People today wrap themselves up so much that they miss the forest for the trees. So all this witchery about plagiarism is really just that, witchery. Thinking that a person must be original is somebody else’s delusion. As for me, my only desire is to be having the opinion God has given us all to be having. May all our words be only that which might convey godliness to others. Such things are what make this life paradoxical and oxymoronic, in our blind eyes. The jurisdictional issue is something really of the past, today the only jurisdiction that matters is the jurisdiction of God.

The most unloving thing of all is to practice that which is departing from the established faith. These can be seen in the innovations with the sign of the cross, the transvestites and cross dressers (men that cut their beard, women that wear pants), being in communion with the Latin’s for centuries as the impostor Orthodox Churches have truly been in, the shortening of worship services, the Latinizing of books and languages, the contrariness of Processions, corruption of iconography…the list goes on and on. There are not different ways to heaven, as the Nikonites suppose. The two-fingered sign of the cross is specifically the early Christian way and not only the Old Believer way, the Greeks passed it on to the Russians from the start.

For instance, the two finger sign of the cross is not imagination, rationalization or innovation; but the three finger sign and the neo-orthodox priestly blessing all started by the influence of the Latin Crusaders when they sacked Constantinople. We can clearly see where it all started. There were other heresies which began at this time, such as God the Father icons and Augustinianism (calling Augustine holy). People who do not have a right hand wherewith to sign themselves are simply not expected to be signing themselves. God is more than able to complete that which we are unable to do ourselves in this temporary life. What is clear is that we do not have the privilege to contradict the established teachings of the true Faith.

Some people have an erroneous idea that all the redemptive acts (particularly the Crucifixion of Christ) cannot be remembered. I tell you the truth, that all the redemptive acts of God will be eternally remembered. So it has always been correct, from the beginning of Christianity, to sign oneself placing the two natures of Christ on the Holy Cross for our protection against the evils in this world. As a matter of fact it is heresy to place the Trinity on the sign of the cross, as heretics do.

Hyper-ritualism is that which those in the Great Apostasy are currently doing, the neo-Orthodox with their Latinizations and all others who pervert the truth. It is clear that heretics have no Grace, but nobody has ever shown me where the strict Old Believers practiced any heresy. There is only one conclusion a person can make. Obedience to godly examples is life, contradictions of God caused death. Godly ordered things are not at all mechanical but they certainly are precise in nature, though at times they are mysterious. But satan has always given impostors, also called magic. Woe to all those who mistake one for the other, there are no excuses to remain in errors. Heretics separate themselves from Christ and the Mysteries.

It is a misnomer that the strict Old Believers were ever separated from the Mysteries. They have never lacked anything. The neo-orthodox are not the Church. To follow the neo-orthodox in their innovative Latin practices is ludicrous. I would never desire such for my worst enemy. Heresy is contradicting Christ, His Apostles and the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the good councils. Even the Nikonites recognized they were wrong to call the Stoglav a forgery, but the Council of 1666 is unquestionably a robber council. It is significant that the 1666 council was not one year earlier or one year later. One contradiction with the robber council is that they began accepting the sprinkle baptisms of Latin converts. It is not the earthly end of a practice but the contradiction of established faith and practice that is Heresy.

By nature humans are forgetful, so by the mercies of God He repeats Himself often, and hears those who repeatedly entreat Him. So we should not be so critical of good repetitions. I am really amazed at the comments I see on this forum. The form of the blessing cross and the personal sign of the cross were identical through the ages, this age of Great Apostasy is certainly no time to be creating our own ideas about how blessings and personal gestures should be done. All the Greek Orthodox clergy that I have seen, which are hundreds, all bless according to the neo-orthodox Latin heretical fashion, not the good old way. And for the record, Old Believers most certainly are offended at the western Protestant ideas, so it is not honest to relate Protestants to Old Believers.

Avvakum, one of the greatest of Old Russian writers, was a most amazing clergy person, who never joined the Nikonite heretics. He continues to be a great example of the Orthodoxy that neo-orthodox have lost. People should learn more about him. When people express the old Christian form of the sign of the cross as 5 fingers is simply a way of expressing the fullness of Orthodoxy, compared to what is lacking in the neo-orthodox practice. Expressing false teachers as wolves in sheep clothing comes from the greatest example, Christ Himself. So, to think of the devil as a wolf is most appropriate indeed. Imitating Christ is not being a robot, but imitating the devil is unquestionably the worst thing anybody could do. The purpose of the devil is to have everything to do with everything, so that he can confuse everyone. Do not underestimate the devil, thinking that he would not impersonate his own demise, for that is exactly what he has always done from the beginning. Faith and practice cannot be separated, we cannot be imitators of heretics and be faithful to Christ at the same time. This is why doing the sign of the cross correctly is of such importance.

The reasons why I desire to be like the last good Christians, the strict Old Believers, is simply because I want to obey God. It is more than evident that they are the last good example of the one and only Faith which God gave the human race for salvation. The Old Believers have themselves given more than ample good reasons and I do not think myself greater than them, I bow to their good example and offer them to anyone who would care enough to really look. Maintaining the Faith given once for all mankind is not attaching anything, to the contrary, the Nikonites attach a multitude of things, just look and see for yourself. Actions speak louder than words. What people do, as far as placing the Trinity on the Cross, is louder than their denials of it. So Nikonite heretics can deny that they continually practice the heresy of putting the Trinity on the Cross,  but in all honestly they are two faced, for what they do betrays them. The Nikonite motives are impious and lazy, to say the least. The very substance of the Faith stands or falls on what might seem like the smallest of points. If we do everything right, yet faith in one thing, we are guilty of doing everything wrong.  A half truth is an entire lie. Repentance is Life and anyone can be doers of this. This is why the heretics have no excuse for continuing the way they do. Differences are acceptable only if they do not contradict the truth.

Heresy is not genuinely beautiful, even if it might seem so for a moment. It is sin through and through. Sin is sin, heresy is heresy. False ecumenism is when any heresy is accepted. There is really not any simpler way to say it. Bathing has been known a pagan custom which we would do well to avoid. Washing to get clean is another thing all together. I am guessing that many people do not understand things, but they should. To usurp God with devilish traditions of men like pharmaceuticals is unthinkable. God gives, God takes away. By no means should anyone, especially women, be going to beaches to sun bathe and strut around half naked, etc. God’s people perish due to lack of knowledge.

The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pa. (and other similar kinds of “old believers”) are to be understood as “unionists” that have compromised their good roots. Due to such tendencies the earth swallowed hundreds of their family and neighbors. We should all take to heart such warnings. But there most certainly is room for anyone to come to a whole hearted repentance, but they will be the few who are willing to depart from the Great Apostasy.

This is a crazy mixed-up time when most people think that heretics are nice while at the same time ignore any hint of genuine goodness. There are degrees, those who more closely mimic the truth will endure more weeping and gnashing of teeth due to the fact that they should have known all the much more. For my part I cannot imagine how anything would persuade me to rejoin the desperately counterfeit neo-orthodoxies of my past. The delusion is certainly very great for so many to be in such confusions.

Everyone gets at least a couple things right which shows that there are no excuses for not getting the rest of the Faith right. All of us should understand that even  the holy Apostle Paul used the pagan idea of an “unknown god” to spark and awareness of the truth. There is no problem in using the right things that those in error do realize, so that they might come to the knowledge of the truth. Being all things to all people, as it were. But we should not take this too far, thinking that the last few people should risk what little example they have in order convince this unwilling last generation of unfaithful people to be faithful. btw,  the strict Old Believers already gave a thorough anathema and response to the Nikonite and neo-orthodox centuries ago, in what is known as the “Pomorsky Answers” which to this day there has never been a thoughtful rebuttal, simply because there is nothing good that the heretics could say. That document is one of the best documents I can think of, one which I suggest all people of goodwill learn. It is certainly part of the one standard of God to use all available references against the tide of wickedness.

The worst of trolls are those who parade as being Orthodox but are still light years away from ever having it. Being banned from talking to a group of heretics is a good thing, after all, just how long should we continue with them? In the end God will judge us, on that fearful day who of us is proud enough to say they will remain standing? I am the worlds worst speller, typist, reader and writer, but I trust that you all can get my points. I suggest that all Internet forums are trolls themselves. Who caught who here? The vast multitudes of people today will never be convinced of the truth because they are all happy in their various heresies. The only reason I continue to offer such study notes is because there are a few who actually appreciate it and care, perhaps even here. Something to take serious note of is that fake sacraments and fake altars make a fake church, better to be cautious about such things lest we find ourselves in a worse spot than we were before. To me, commitment to the original is what true love is all about. Chrysostom does not condemn those who reject the erroneous episcopacies of the last days for Chrysostom says concerning the Antichrist, “he will be seated in the temple of God, not that in Jerusalem only, but also in every Church.” Commentary on 2 Thess. 2:3,4. Chrysostom is not alone in expressing this view. When a good Christian is martyred they do not cease being a good Christian, likewise with the episcopacy, the fact the last ones were martyred in no way causes their faithful office to end. The eternal liturgy continues with all those who worship in Spirit and in Truth. Most people should find the truth believable but they simple refuse to, it is their choice.

About eating meat. In the Acts of the Sainted Apostles we can find a passage which says that all Christians must abstain from idolatry, blood and sexual immorality. So it goes that it is still required that good Christians “bleed” animals according to the command of God. Sadly, meat today, in our markets or restaurants, is most commonly electrocuted in order that all the blood remain inside the animal. Something to think about is that if we desire to obey God rather than men that we should not be eating such meat at all.

It does not take a rocket scientist or genius to see that compromising people like the Nikonites have caused all the confusion in this world. The Truth is never confusing. Those who have so long been in the confusion of this world may find the Truth confusing to them, it is no wonder. But the fact remains, error makes more error, confusion brings more confusion. Step back and think again and you might see things more clearly.

How are Nikonites and Latinizers not heretics?

How can there be any good earthly bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?

This entire post is a response to the thread from here which has been referencing my website.

I am more than willing to talk to anyone, anytime.

Forgive, John

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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 03:15:48 AM »

Quote
The Truth is never confusing. Those who have so long been in the confusion of this world may find the Truth confusing to them, it is no wonder.

I'm confused...

However, I must say that I completely agree with what you said on your site: "manmade electricity is demonic". That is why I do not use the internet. How can good fruit come from a bad tree? (Matt. 7:17-18; Luke 6:43)
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 03:25:56 AM »

I'm confused...

However, I must say that I completely agree with what you said on your site: "manmade electricity is demonic". That is why I do not use the internet. How can good fruit come from a bad tree? (Matt. 7:17-18; Luke 6:43)
Just don't do anything that gets you struck by "God's electricity". Wink
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 03:34:10 AM »

Interesting...just after Great Vespers this evening, our former Rector, Fr. Andrew Morby (visiting from MN w/ wife and daughter while on vacation) gave a great talk about a St. Theoleptus (sp?).  Some of the main talking points had to do with: 
1) being both right and wrong at the same time (like following the letter of the law but coming to the wrong conclusion).
2) schisms such as in the saint's day eventually healed after several decades (i.e. the Arsenian schism).
3) The saint was a contemporary of St. Gregory Palamas and had some of the same influences, but St. Theoleptus was much more pastoral in nature since he was the Metropolitan of a large flock.  Because of these areas, this third point stuck out for me:  Economia ALWAYS takes precedence over Akrivia in pastoral things.  This completely makes sense to me, as Economia deals with leniency and mercy - actually practicing love towards the flock as opposed to acting like a dictator by insisting in Akrivia all the time.

I think this is the major issue with Old Believers - they have completely lost site of trying to love their fellow Orthodox that they can only concentrate on the letter of the laws.
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 03:48:13 AM »

Somehow, I don't think Hopeful Faithful (a.k.a. John Alden) truly represents Old Believer faith and praxis.  Some of his ideas seem quite extreme even compared to what little I know of Old Believer tradition.
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 01:58:29 PM »

Anyone can test and prove things well enough to find the truth. If people care to know specific sources of mine I will be glad to work at offering them. Several things should be understood from the start. The English language was always forbidden by the early Christians to use in prayer, worship or scripture, because it is a tradition of men made by witches.

Indeed, one can look for facts and details of history and other fields to find out what is true.  And just for starters, what you write above is not true.  I would be most interested in knowing what "specific source" you have for the above assertion, because historically and linguistically it is wrong.

How can "English" have been "forbidden" by "Early Christians" when the English language did not exist in the first century AD? What time period is "Early" please?   What do you mean by "English" anyway, may one ask?

Old English or Anglo Saxon came first and is the language of "Beowulf" and the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicles" and Bede's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People". The Gospels were translated into it:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4506/luke-ws.html
The Gospel of Luke in West Saxon

It was the language of Caedmon and his hymn.
http://www.heorot.dk/bede-caedmon.html 

The Lord's Prayer was translated into it.  It starts:
Fæder ure,
 þu þe eart on heofonum,
 si þin nama gehalgod.....
http://www.pastperfect.info/sites/yeavering/archive/prayer.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ascp/a03_29.htm

I can provide more links and source materials to show that your statement on the language being forbidden is an error, it is not true.  I use Old English since that is the form of the language that would be closest to "early Christians".  Middle English came out of Old English and is the language of Chaucer and the Wycliffe translation of the Bible.  Moving on to Modern English, which has changed over the centuries, we have the King James Version of the Bible and much more.  That covers over 15 centuries of a language's history.

Would you be so good as to explain how an languge, any established language with centuries of use in a culture is a "tradition of men"?  And on what do you base the claim that it was "made by witches" please?  Are you a linguist?  A philologist?  On what authority do you make such a peculiar assertion about a language?

There is so much in your screed that would appear to be your own particular opinions without any support or authority beyond your say-so.  What are your sources then, please? for example this one:

Quote
Bathing has been known a pagan custom which we would do well to avoid.

Do you mean going swimming in a pool or lake or the sea?  On what do you base this claim?

Quote
To usurp God with devilish traditions of men like pharmaceuticals is unthinkable. God gives, God takes away.

The knowledge and ability to find cures or relief for human ills is "satanic" as opposed to God giving Humans the brains and talents to think things through, to find things that help people who are suffering?

Quote
The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pa. (and other similar kinds of “old believers”) are to be understood as “unionists” that have compromised their good roots. Due to such tendencies the earth swallowed hundreds of their family and neighbors.

Or this one.  The "earth swallowed" hundreds of people? Where?  on what dates?  What documentation would you provide to support a claim of the ending of many human lives?

Quote
Forgive, John

And what is it that you wish to be forgiven *for* one wonders.

Since the claims about English are wrong, why should any of your other opinions be thought "True"? 

With respect,

Ebor

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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 01:59:20 PM »

Somehow, I don't think Hopeful Faithful (a.k.a. John Alden) truly represents Old Believer faith and praxis.  Some of his ideas seem quite extreme even compared to what little I know of Old Believer tradition.

Greetings there PeterThe Aleut,

It would be nice if you could be specific, could you?

Forgive, John Alden

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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 02:02:45 PM »

Somehow, I don't think Hopeful Faithful (a.k.a. John Alden) truly represents Old Believer faith and praxis.  Some of his ideas seem quite extreme even compared to what little I know of Old Believer tradition.

Some time back I had read postings by a "John Alden" (assuming that they are the same person) on another EO board. It was similar to this, and iirc at that time he was not part of any Old Believer group.  One wonders if he is now.

Ebor
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2007, 02:04:19 PM »

Just don't do anything that gets you struck by "God's electricity". Wink

Greetings PeterTheAluet,

We would not even be here if it were not for "God's electricity" (no winking here).

Forgive, John
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2007, 02:07:59 PM »

I think this is the major issue with Old Believers - they have completely lost site of trying to love their fellow Orthodox that they can only concentrate on the letter of the laws.

Greetings Elisha,

How is it loving to reject the law and accept Latin reforms and still believe that Orthodoxy exists therein?

If there was ever a good answer to this I might begin to believe that the Old Believers are the unloving ones.

Forgive, John








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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM »

Indeed, one can look for facts and details of history and other fields to find out what is true.  And just for starters, what you write above is not true.  I would be most interested in knowing what "specific source" you have for the above assertion, because historically and linguistically it is wrong.

How can "English" have been "forbidden" by "Early Christians" when the English language did not exist in the first century AD? What time period is "Early" please?   What do you mean by "English" anyway, may one ask?

Old English or Anglo Saxon came first and is the language of "Beowulf" and the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicles" and Bede's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People". The Gospels were translated into it:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4506/luke-ws.html
The Gospel of Luke in West Saxon

It was the language of Caedmon and his hymn.
http://www.heorot.dk/bede-caedmon.html 

The Lord's Prayer was translated into it.  It starts:
Fæder ure,
 þu þe eart on heofonum,
 si þin nama gehalgod.....
http://www.pastperfect.info/sites/yeavering/archive/prayer.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ascp/a03_29.htm

I can provide more links and source materials to show that your statement on the language being forbidden is an error, it is not true.  I use Old English since that is the form of the language that would be closest to "early Christians".  Middle English came out of Old English and is the language of Chaucer and the Wycliffe translation of the Bible.  Moving on to Modern English, which has changed over the centuries, we have the King James Version of the Bible and much more.  That covers over 15 centuries of a language's history.

Would you be so good as to explain how an languge, any established language with centuries of use in a culture is a "tradition of men"?  And on what do you base the claim that it was "made by witches" please?  Are you a linguist?  A philologist?  On what authority do you make such a peculiar assertion about a language?

There is so much in your screed that would appear to be your own particular opinions without any support or authority beyond your say-so.  What are your sources then, please? for example this one:

Do you mean going swimming in a pool or lake or the sea?  On what do you base this claim?

The knowledge and ability to find cures or relief for human ills is "satanic" as opposed to God giving Humans the brains and talents to think things through, to find things that help people who are suffering?

Or this one.  The "earth swallowed" hundreds of people? Where?  on what dates?  What documentation would you provide to support a claim of the ending of many human lives?

And what is it that you wish to be forgiven *for* one wonders.

Since the claims about English are wrong, why should any of your other opinions be thought "True"? 

With respect,

Ebor




Greetings Ebor,

By English I mean that tradition of men made first by witches and which continues today in this language we are currently using. When I speak of early I mean those from the time when the roots of English began, that is early enough for me to call it early Christianity. Your references to "Beowulf" and the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicles" and Bede's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People" do not reference any good authority in Church use. Bede was condemned by his bishop so I do not accept references to such things as being of good source. I know that there have been many heretical translations, as you show, but they are not one of them is of good Christian authority. It is not true that Old English was ever of a good Christian source. How can a language of witches be Christian? The fact that Old English is a tradition of men made by witches is undeniable. I have never seen one good Christian reference that ever accepted it as a sacred language. I will get three references to the fact that English is a tradition of men made by witches, give me a little time to look them up. I will indeed explain in detail about all these things, but it will take time for me to put it together. It should be noted that Wycliffe and King James were both manifest heretics, so I do not recognize them as any authority. We all make our choices though. I have studied language for 20years, at seminary level. Everyone should make themselves aware of the truth, it is all our personal responsibility. Being born into this world gives all of us this authority, which nobody can take away. I would argue the same thing about opinions here, it is clear where most of the opinions come from. Let us all reconsider these things more than ever and be keeping only the opinion of God. The good old Christian attitude toward "bathing" is recorded more than well enough, but I will work to offer a few refrences about it as well. I have referenced the flood and Korah as two references where the earth swallowed people. The facts about English have not been shown wrong. As far as being forgiven, we all offend, we all have need of forgiveness.

Forgive, John








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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2007, 03:12:02 PM »

The "facts" about English have not been proven wrong?  Sorry, bub, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt.  If you want to make an assertion that flies against consensus, you have to provide evidence for it.  You don't get to throw something unsubstantiated out there and say that it's true until we prove otherwise. 
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2007, 03:40:36 PM »

Greek was a language of pagans and Slavonic was the language of people who worshipped trees among other things. So, whence the idea that these are holy languages?
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2007, 04:36:24 PM »

How is it that the Old Believers are so pure? If I were to use your methodology, I could just as easily argue that the Old Believers were heretics. The Orthodox who brought the Russians into the Eastern Church were in communion with Rome (on and off) for generations (from the 9th to 11th centuries), even after Rome had accepted the filioque, had declared that anti-Photian robber council to be Ecumenical, had openly declared the heresy of papal supremacy, and so forth. Therefore, all of Orthodoxy was fallen by the time Russia became Christian via the Eastern Church. Thus, the Old Believers were merely a break off of a group (Russians) that had never in their history been a true Church, because they were originally guided and formed by a latin-loving Eastern Orthodox world (Constantinople, etc.).
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2007, 05:34:27 PM »

By English I mean that tradition of men made first by witches

As opposed to English the language that come from Indo-European through the Germanic branch?  I'm sorry, your "definitions" of things seem to be ideosyncratic and unexplained.  What do *you* mean by "witches" and what is their time period and location please?

Quote
When I speak of early I mean those from the time when the roots of English began, that is early enough for me to call it early Christianity.

Is it then somewhere around the 4th century AD with St. Patrick being born to Romano-British Christian parents?  Or do you mean earlier when St. Alban became the proto-martyr of the British Isles?  Or some other period.  Please be more specific as to your meanings and definitions.

Quote
Your references to "Beowulf" and the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicles" and Bede's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People" do not reference any good authority in Church use.

"Beowulf" is literature with Christian elements.  The "Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" is a primary source historical document.  And Bede's "Ecclesiastical History" is also an historical work that has a great focus on matters of English Christians. They are how we know what was happening in early Christian England.  Have you read any of these works and understood them?

Quote
Bede was condemned by his bishop so I do not accept references to such things as being of good source.

Condemned for what?  Which bishop?  What references do you have for this?  I provide links and I can give titles of books as well.  I beg your pardon, but that you do not 'accept' those references does not have any affect on the fact that they are examples of the language called Old English/Anglo-Saxon.  You have provided no references for your assertions at all. 

Quote
I know that there have been many heretical translations, as you show, but they are not one of them is of good Christian authority.

Not "good Christian authority"?  Because you say so?  Who are you to declare them heretical?  They were made long before the Great Schism of 1054, if one wishes to use that date for a marker.  They certainly were not speaking any form of Russian in Anglo-Saxon England or in Ireland or Scotland or Wales at that time.  They are what Anglo-Saxon Christians used in their own tongue. 


Quote
It is not true that Old English was ever of a good Christian source.

And your proof or documentation of this would be?  Merely repeating the same lines about 'traditions of men' is not proof nor support for your argument.

Quote
I have never seen one good Christian reference that ever accepted it as a sacred language.

And is your definition of a 'good Christian reference' one that agrees with your particular ideas?   Undecided You believe in 'sacred languages'?  Since God has caused all things to come into being including languages and human intelligence to use and develope them, it is possible that all languages are on a common footing in that regard.

Quote
I will get three references to the fact that English is a tradition of men made by witches, give me a little time to look them up. I will indeed explain in detail about all these things, but it will take time for me to put it together.

May one suggest that for future 'fiats' it would be useful for you to have your documentation available to support your opinions?  Please do provide some references, and would you please also define what the words mean to you, since they seem to have some connotations that are not shared by other people?  Thank you in advance.

Quote
It should be noted that Wycliffe and King James were both manifest heretics, so I do not recognize them as any authority.

I offered them as markers in the history of the developement of the English Language, nothing more.  Sometimes having an historical reference point is helpful in understanding ideas and history.

Quote
We all make our choices though. I have studied language for 20years, at seminary level.

May one ask what seminary(ies) you have been associated with for these studies please?  What languages have you studied?  I'm sorry, but claiming to study for 20 years does not mean that expertise has been attained.  So far you have not offered any support that would lead me to accept you as any kind of authority.

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Everyone should make themselves aware of the truth, it is all our personal responsibility.

Sometimes what is true and what a person likes or believes are not the same thing.

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Being born into this world gives all of us this authority,

I begin to wonder if you have a different definition of 'authority'...

Quote
it is clear where most of the opinions come from.

Human beings with ideas and likes and dislikes and the influences that make up their lives. 

Quote
Let us all reconsider these things more than ever and be keeping only the opinion of God.

So far you have not demonstrated that you are an authority on what God, The Creator of All Things, wants human beings to do, but have only put forth a lengthy and questionable essay on what you think things should be.

Quote
The good old Christian attitude toward "bathing" is recorded more than well enough, but I will work to offer a few refrences about it as well.

Again, please do, as well as defining what you mean by 'bathing'.  Tubs and hot water?  Sea bathing at the shore?  Swimming in a pool?

Quote
I have referenced the flood and Korah as two references where the earth swallowed people.

Since both the flood and Korah are long in the past from the people at the Old Believer parish in Erie, PA in 2007 these incidents do not apply to the people there today.  Yet you asserted that *those* people alive and worshipping in Pennsylvania have had 'hundreds' of relatives and neighbors 'swallowed up' and you have given no supporting data. There is no proof that your idea has any truth or reality.

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The facts about English have not been shown wrong.

You have shown no "facts" about English at all. You have merely repeated your idea without any support or definitions of what you might mean.  When counter-evidence with documentation was offered to your assertions, you declared them 'heretical'.  You said that something did not exist, when in fact it did.  Your personal ideas are not the same as 'facts'.

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2007, 05:59:27 PM »

Ebor,

Quote
You believe in 'sacred languages'?  Since God has caused all things to come into being including languages and human intelligence to use and develope them, it is possible that all languages are on a common footing in that regard.

Also, even supposing that you do believe in sacred languages, it was hardly strange throughout Church history for sacred things to be translated into vulgar tongues. Even John Chrysostom (horrors!) did this when he was exiled.
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2007, 09:12:15 PM »

Greetings Elisha,

How is it loving to reject the law and accept Latin reforms and still believe that Orthodoxy exists therein?

If there was ever a good answer to this I might begin to believe that the Old Believers are the unloving ones.

Forgive, John
Sure you can snow a peasant like me with endless sources of data for self justification cloaked in false humility but you are not one to determine who Jesus Christ will welcome into the kingdom of heaven. How does one not know that Satan may be using you as a self proclaimed pharisee to try to shut the doors of the kingdom of heaven to others? Perhaps you need to repent and try to live the simple commands of Jesus Christ of the golden rule and loving God and your neighbor as yourself. It is heresy to proclaim apocatastasis but it is permissable to pray for it. God does know a sinning grouch such as myself is unworthy but the struggle is to believe everyone else is.









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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2007, 09:14:46 PM »


Misplaced "[/quote]" tag?
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2007, 09:31:50 PM »

Hey man, if you want to live like an Old Believer, what is stopping you? Go up to one of their compounds, knock on the door, ask for baptism, and enjoy the rest of your life.
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2007, 09:38:05 PM »

Hey man, if you want to live like an Old Believer, what is stopping you? Go up to one of their compounds, knock on the door, ask for baptism, and enjoy the rest of your life.

Ouch!
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2007, 09:58:26 PM »

Well, if 'Speak for yourself' John Alden Smiley wanted to parody self-destructive converts he seems to have done a wickedly thorough job with his site.

<- Never been to an Old Rite church but has the beautiful Old Rite ROCOR Prayer Book, now a classic, and knows and likes Slavonic. And knows somebody born and raised Priestless Old Believer, now ROCOR, who is perfectly normal.
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2007, 10:17:57 PM »

Anyone can test and prove things well enough to find the truth. If people care to know specific sources of mine I will be glad to work at offering them. Several things should be understood from the start. The English language was always forbidden by the early Christians to use in prayer, worship or scripture, because it is a tradition of men made by witches. English simply does not have the tools to properly express the things of God. Man generated electricity is strange fire like the strange incense warned against by the prophets of old. Petroleum products, like plastics, synthetic clothing and man made chemicals are the remains of the damned dead people, plants and animals from things like the flood and Korah, etc. They are black and stink, spiritually defiling and ungodly. It is the demons that carry the data/voices back and forth between computers/telephones. It is the demons who inspired people to use such things because they will ultimately be part of what is known as the Mark of the Beast. These things are simply not Christian.

Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the language used by people on the British Isles (and all of Western Europe for that matter) was LATIN.  Perhaps the Roman Church made up stories about witches and so on to prevent the adoption of prayer in a language which the average person in England could actually understand.  Of course I have not heard of such stories, and you should provide references when making such novel claims.  To claim Slavonic is God's language reminds me of the Fundamentalist Protestants who claim that the only version of the Bible which is true is the King James Edition, ignoring the fact that the original was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  If you're such a linguistic snob, why don't you adopt worship in a language which Christ actually spoke, such as Aramaic.  There are indeed Syrian Christians who still use that language.  You then claim that "English simply does not have the tools to properly express the things of God."  Of all the languages out there, English is among the most adaptable, borrowing words from a multiplicity of different sources and languages.  There are multiple ways of expressing the same thoughts in English, and if none suits you, you can certainly find some way to express a thought, or even borrow a foreign, say Greek word which is suitable.  That's why we Orthodox use the term Pascha rather than Easter.  See, that wasn't so difficult.  If you feel so strongly about English being a language of witches, then I sir, assert that since YOU are expressing yourself in this forum using the very language which you condemn, that YOU ARE A WITCH!!!  If you think that my last sentence is ridiculous, than you need to re-read your argument condemning liturgical English.
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2007, 10:22:51 PM »

Somehow I don't think the Scots, Welsh, Irish would agree with this totally.
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2007, 10:58:43 PM »

Somehow I don't think the Scots, Welsh, Irish would agree with this totally.

 Cheesy I do believe that you are correct. 

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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2007, 11:02:37 PM »

Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the language used by people on the British Isles (and all of Western Europe for that matter) was LATIN. 

But there were still some things in the various local languages such as the links I posted on the gospels and the Lord's Prayer and others in Anglo-Saxon.

Quote
Of all the languages out there, English is among the most adaptable, borrowing words from a multiplicity of different sources and languages. 

Indeed.  I have read of a case of a business venture between a German company and one in a place that spoke a form of Chinese.  The common language was English.

Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2007, 11:06:14 PM »

Ebor,

Also, even supposing that you do believe in sacred languages, it was hardly strange throughout Church history for sacred things to be translated into vulgar tongues. Even John Chrysostom (horrors!) did this when he was exiled.

True.  It's not such a wild and evil idea, it seems to me, to teach people in the language that *they* know instead of making some kind of "inner ring" "special group" "only the ones who learn the One True Speech are accepted" thing.  It sounds kind of gnostic to me.  Wink


And for the record, I don't believe that there is some kind of 'sacred language' for Christianity.  Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2007, 11:06:50 PM »

A couple of online articles about Old Believers that I found very informative (Evidently, they're not as opposed to new-fangled technologies as Hopeful Faithful might like us to believe.  Just don't be caught with a cigarette in your mouth!):

Collection of Old Believer History and Tradition, compiled by Paul J. Wigowsky


Old Believers in Alaska, by Vitali Vitaliev

The first several paragraphs of this article lay down the foundation of the general Russian Orthodox presence in Alaska, so you won't find anything specific about the Old Believers until the paragraph I quote below.
Quote
One thing, however, is certain. Had Alaska stayed Russian and then Soviet, paradoxically, it would never have become home to the world's most obscure community of Russian outcasts. These are confined to a handful of small villages: Nikolaevsk, Voznesenka, Razdolna, Kachemak-Selo, Port Graham and Nanwalek - no more than 2 or 3 thousand people altogether - in the south-west of the Kenai Peninsula. Visitors are not welcome there, but I was lucky - my name must have helped.

Some paragraphs (emphases mine) from this article that I found quite enlightening within the context of this thread and Hopeful Faithful's English language thread:

Quote
The majority of Nikolaevsk residents came to Alaska in 1968 from Brazil, via Oregon, where they survived by growing wheat and corn. In the words of Father Kondratiy Fefelov, with whom I spoke inside the village church of St. Nicholas, they left Brazil because of its poverty - "We couldn't sell our crops" - and Oregon, in fear of the "corruptive influence" the American media, mainly television, could have on their children, traditionally brought up in strict accordance with the Old Believers' religious values. "We wanted to get away from Western civilisation, with all its drugs and sexes (sic), and to be on our own…"

"How come you allow this?" I asked him pointing at a satellite dish on the roof of a neighbouring house. The priest waved his hand nervously.

"We had to slacken up eventually. You ban television - and the kids run to our American neighbours, or go to the cinema, which is even more dissipating…" He pronounced "cinema" with disgust - in precisely the same way the Old Believers of Peter the Great times must have uttered the hated word "reform".

Quote
And yet, the feared Western civilisation has crept its way into this closed, anachronistic world.

"We have a problem with young Russian village guys who are in the habit of getting drunk and driving their pick-up trucks at breakneck speed across the town," a tourism official in Homer confided in me. When I asked the ‘Batiushka’ about it, he pretended he didn't hear the question. In a challenge to the age-long traditions of male domination, several Nikolaevsk women found themselves jobs in Homer, whereas a couple of others chose to leave the community altogether and moved into the "real world", where, as one Nikolaevsk resident told me with horror, "they wear shorts and even use make-up". On the other hand, three American families came to live in Nikolaevsk and seem to be getting along well with the Russians.

Yet even the most conformist of the Old Believers cannot dismiss all the fruits of Western civilisation as harmful. The Batiushka himself was telling me with pride about the villagers' own small fleet of ultra-modern fishing vessels, with latest electronic equipment - fishing constitutes their main source of income. Nikolaevsk boasts an excellent secondary school, one of the best in Alaska, where all the subjects, except for Russian, are taught in English. No wonder the village teenagers prefer communicating in English, although most of them retain a reasonably good command of their melodious old-fashioned Russian language. As for smaller kids, they hardly speak any Russian at all.

"They don't want to learn Russian," complained Nina Fefelova, at whose house I was put up for the night. Nina, herself an Old Believer, came to Nikolaevsk from the Russian Far East seven years ago and married one of ‘Batiushka's’ sons, a deacon called Denis. She taught Russian at the village school.
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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2007, 11:17:26 PM »

Elder Cleopa of Romania had to deal with the Old Believers over there. He brought many of them back into the fold.
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« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2007, 11:19:44 PM »

Elder Cleopa of Romania had to deal with the Old Believers over there. He brought many of them back into the fold.
I'm interested to know how he did it.
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2007, 02:11:40 AM »

I'm interested to know how he did it.

Greetings Peter,

By forked tongue and by the weakness of those Old Believers.

Forgive, John










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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2007, 02:12:16 AM »

A couple of online articles about Old Believers that I found very informative (Evidently, they're not as opposed to new-fangled technologies as Hopeful Faithful might like us to believe.  Just don't be caught with a cigarette in your mouth!):

Collection of Old Believer History and Tradition, compiled by Paul J. Wigowsky


Old Believers in Alaska, by Vitali Vitaliev

The first several paragraphs of this article lay down the foundation of the general Russian Orthodox presence in Alaska, so you won't find anything specific about the Old Believers until the paragraph I quote below.
Some paragraphs (emphases mine) from this article that I found quite enlightening within the context of this thread and Hopeful Faithful's English language thread:



Greetings Peter,

Wigowsky is not practicing strict Old Belief, as far as I last knew. But many stricter Old Believers from his Oregon area did in fact move to Alaska in order to be removed from the unchristian practices. Likewise, Vitaliev never practiced strict Old Belief either. So those sources are not the best sources, sadly. There are at least 7 Old Believer villages in Alaska, caused in large part to the compromises with this world. We all make our choices. But there are still some strict Old Believers in Oregon and Alaska, but you will not find Wigowsky or Vitaliev telling much about them.

I made a page about tobacco:

http://mymartyrdom.com/tobacco.htm

Forgive, John




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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2007, 03:16:18 AM »

By forked tongue and by the weakness of those Old Believers.

Wigowsky is not practicing strict Old Belief, as far as I last knew. But many stricter Old Believers from his Oregon area did in fact move to Alaska in order to be removed from the unchristian practices. Likewise, Vitaliev never practiced strict Old Belief either. So those sources are not the best sources, sadly. There are at least 7 Old Believer villages in Alaska, caused in large part to the compromises with this world. We all make our choices. But there are still some strict Old Believers in Oregon and Alaska, but you will not find Wigowsky or Vitaliev telling much about them.

And you're somehow a more credible authority than the respected man of God Elder Cleopas of Romania, than Paul Wigowsky and Vitaly Vitaliev?  Rather than denigrate the credibility of those we respect, which serves only to diminish your credibility with us, why don't you strive to establish why we should deem you credible?
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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2007, 07:19:40 AM »

I've read the history of the Old Believers and their persecutions were totally unjustified but so is the persecution of anybody. Truly there are Old Beleivers out there who can discourse more constructively than the views that have been presented in the forum that amount to varying signs of the cross and the English language as being the marks of Satan. Or perhaps the Old Believers just want to be left alone so all we hear is the lunatic fringe (which all human assemblies have). Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2007, 07:29:30 AM »

I made a page about tobacco:

Wow, isn't that just special. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2007, 07:55:57 AM »

Or perhaps the Old Believers just want to be left alone so all we hear is the lunatic fringe (which all human assemblies have).
From what I've read, most Old Believers just want to be left alone.  They tend to be rather closed to outsiders with their foreign ideas.
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« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2007, 09:11:54 AM »

"mongoloid"?  <insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow here>  What does that word mean *to you* and what historical texts have you read that used it please?

"Latin" reforms?  Yet in some of your earlier rants they were described as "greek". On what do you base calling them Latin please?

And just for the record, the way that Nikon acted was harsh and (in this person's opinion wrong), but I don't see much difference in how you are declaring that there is Only One Right Way(tm).

Do you actually belong to a parish?  Participate in weekly services with others?

Which EO churches? citations please?  And is it the praxis that is considered right?  In what way was *belief* in the basic doctines different as opposed to *praxis*? 


Ebor

Greetings Ebor,

I was unaware till just now about all these other posts over here. It will take me a while but I will work on giving good answers to all the questions. I have a life other than responding to these posts so it may take me a while. The word mongoloid, at that place, is related to the more important word that immediatly follows it, muslims. Most dictionaries suggest that a secondary meaning of the word is offensive towards Down syndrome, I do not mean to use the word in that secondary meaning. Any study of the downfall of Constantinople (something I suggest you do) will inform you that muslims, the mongol hordes, won Constantinople. One text that I recall talking about these facts was written by Ware. This is my meaning. I work to control those raised eyebrows, something I am sure you cannot understand at this point. About the Greek/Latin reforms, of the Eastern Orthodox Churches it was the Greeks who first succumbed to Latin ideas. So I have used both Greek and Latin somewhat interchangably. I will work on making this point more clear, thank you. Some of the Latin heretical ideas which overcame the Greeks were things like the God the Father icons, Augustinianism, the form of the hand in gestures like the personal sign of the cross or clerical blessings, etc., etc., etc. All of those particular points I just mention began from the influence which the Latins imparted to the Greeks during the time when the Crusaders sacked Constantinople. If a person carefully considers the facts these things are undeniable. I a sure that you do not understand the events in this way right now, but hopefully you will learn about them. As far as the one way idea goes, I simply want to obey God and not men, I believe that Christ taught about there being just one way. I know that this post of yours was first given to fatman, but speaking for myself I can say that as a person at an introductory level to the strict Old Believers that I do not personally recognize there being any right believing bishops left on earth at this present time. So there are no consecrated parishes on earth at this time either. I do have a small chapel here where I do what might be understood as something like reader services on a daily basis. I am only a beginner remember. There are no other Old Believers in San Diego that I know of but I have worshipped with others at every opportunity, never neglecting such things. I have been fortunate to have a friend from Russia who is decended from a line of Old Believers who often visits me and I visit him. We call each other "brat" which means brother. I also talk as regularly as possible with Old Believers from around the world and seek the personal advise from elder more respected Old Believers, often over 90 years old. From the start of the Nikon Greek/Latin reforms which caused the Russian Schism the Greeks never were against the Old Believers, to the contrary, they did not want to participate in the robber council of 1666. Other EO churches which have concluded that Old Belief is correct are the Russians theselves, which effectively overturns the council of 1666 anyway. If I have the facts right, off the top of my head, the Russian church did this around 1979. ROCOR also did the same around the same time. As far as in what way was *belief* in the basic doctines different as opposed to *praxis* I can tell you that many of those points have already been given, such as the sign of the cross, shortening of worship, acceptance of Latin sprinkle baptism for converts, etc., etc., etc. I am not sure how to keep up with all the posts here, but I will do what I can. Please do not think that am avoiding questions. I do care, or I would not be here.

Forgive, John











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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2007, 09:14:32 AM »

Wow, isn't that just special. Roll Eyes

Some people are thankful.
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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2007, 09:21:00 AM »

Somehow I don't think the Scots, Welsh, Irish would agree with this totally.
Or the Cornish. Grin
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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2007, 09:23:33 AM »

So, essentially, you don't actually need the Church, since God will guide you correctly if you just stay faithful to him. In other words, Protestantism is justified within your ultra-(un)traditional world view. Interesting. Cool

Greetings Asteriktos,

Wrong! Anyone who worships in spirit and truth is part of the Church which is eternally in heaven. We should all know that in such worship heaven is on earth. The law of God is written on each persons heart so that none of us are with any excuse. Protestant is not justified one iota and I certainly do not have or desire any ultra-(un)traditional world view, so it is not that interesting. What is interesting is obeying God rather than man. We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.

Forgive, John



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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2007, 09:33:10 AM »

From what I've read, most Old Believers just want to be left alone.  They tend to be rather closed to outsiders with their foreign ideas.

Which confirms something I thought based on the articles linked here earlier: they parallel the Amish.
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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2007, 09:57:06 AM »

Which confirms something I thought based on the articles linked here earlier: they parallel the Amish.

I thought of my Amish neighbors quite often as this thread developed. They do use 'English'...  Shocked
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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2007, 10:01:03 AM »

They do use 'English'... 
I thought that's just what they called us. Cheesy
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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2007, 10:03:21 AM »

Greetings Asteriktos,

Wrong! Anyone who worships in spirit and truth is part of the Church which is eternally in heaven. We should all know that in such worship heaven is on earth. The law of God is written on each persons heart so that none of us are with any excuse. Protestant is not justified one iota and I certainly do not have or desire any ultra-(un)traditional world view, so it is not that interesting. What is interesting is obeying God rather than man. We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.
So you are acknowledging the non juridical possibility of salvation to those who know God's law of right and wrong as st. Paul writes about in Romans 2 and our Saviour illustrates in the example of the good Samaritan but see the Old Believers as repesenting the truth of the Gospel? If so, fair enough, it would be a good starting point to any Christian to clarify so first and then enumerate apologetic. Perhaps meaningful discussion could progress and the trap of phariseeism be avoided.
Forgive, John





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« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2007, 10:16:47 AM »

Some people are thankful.

Sorry, I'm going to need proof that (1) people exist, (2) that they read your tobacco section on your website, and (3) that they are thankful for doing so.  You don't get to just throw out claims like that without support.  Prove there are people!! Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2007, 10:17:49 AM »

From what I heard and read, the Old Church Slavonic was, indeed, a written language, an artificially constructed one, in a way like English. The latter was to a large extent a product of teachers of the 14th-15th century Grammar schools in old England; they made words largely from mediaeval Latin, modifying them to accommodate the Anglo-Saxon vernacular of the simpletons and the Old French vernacular of the nobility. The former was constructed largely by Bulgarian and Macedonian missionaries-monks, based more on THEIR language than on the language of the local population.
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« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2007, 10:36:27 AM »

John,

Quote
...We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.

I am believing that I'll soon be taking a dirt nap. ZZZzzz.


Veniamin,

Quote
Prove there are people!!

Personally, I think we're all holograms in some holodeck program in the 24th century. I have yet to be proven wrong on that. Grin  Tongue
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« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2007, 10:54:27 AM »

The Amish do call all outsiders 'English' (don't know if they use that for other Pennsylvania German groups they're not in communion with) and speak three languages: their own German dialect, originally Palatinate/Swiss German but transformed after centuries in America, AFAIK not a written language; standard German, their liturgical and IIRC preaching language, which they learn to read Luther's Bible; and English with a standard American accent.

I think Heorhij is generally right about the origin of Church Slavonic: an artificial language based on the common Slavic ones at the time which were very similar to each other, mutually intelligible, so the Macedonian or Bulgarian that SS. Cyril and Methodius learnt growing up in Salonika worked pretty well talking to the Czechs and Slovaks.

Russian is a closely related sister language to Slavonic. Not descended from it like the Romance languages are from Latin but like I said, once nearly the same but it gradually changed. (They're still fairly similar though, about like this is to Tyndale's or maybe Chaucer's English: largely intelligible but weird-sounding.)
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« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2007, 12:11:12 PM »

The traditional missionary practice of the Orthodox Church has always been to preach the Gospel and translate the Scriptures and service books into the languages of the indigenous people to whom we preach so that they can understand and participate.  During the missionary work of Ss. Cyril and Methodius and, later, Prince St. Vladimir (whose memory we commemorate tomorrow in the New Calendar churches) Slavonic was the native language of the Russian people.  But as time progressed, the Slavonic language in Russia evolved into modern Russian--languages do this.  Now most Russians don't understand Slavonic except for what they might hear in church; they certainly don't speak this tongue in their daily relations, AFAIK.  Does not our traditional focus on making the Scriptures and service books understandable to the average churchman require, then, that we continue to update the language used in these sacred books to reflect the idioms of the current vernacular?  IMO, the Orthodox should be very uncomfortable with any sentiment that venerates an ancient language as divinely inspired, considers the modern language vulgar and unfit for sacred use, and thus refuses to update its church language.  (The strictest Old Ritualist adherence to Old Slavonic also strikes me as quite phyletistic in its Russian nationalism, but I guess that's more properly the subject of another post.)


Greetings Peter,

With the Latin influenced Orthodox we do see a traditional missionary practice of translating the Scriptures into indigenous languages.  Ss. Cyril and Methodius work cannot be compared with using English. Slavonic is truly more Greek than the native language of the Russian people. The strict Old Believers actually reject the late Czardom and Russian nationality after Nikon. They more respect the heritage of that that good Greeks gave them. So the Old Believers are not at all phyletistic.

Forgive, John




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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2007, 12:13:57 PM »

The Amish do call all outsiders 'English' (don't know if they use that for other Pennsylvania German groups they're not in communion with) and speak three languages: their own German dialect, originally Palatinate/Swiss German but transformed after centuries in America, AFAIK not a written language; standard German, their liturgical and IIRC preaching language, which they learn to read Luther's Bible; and English with a standard American accent.

I think Heorhij is generally right about the origin of Church Slavonic: an artificial language based on the common Slavic ones at the time which were very similar to each other, mutually intelligible, so the Macedonian or Bulgarian that SS. Cyril and Methodius learnt growing up in Salonika worked pretty well talking to the Czechs and Slovaks.

Russian is a closely related sister language to Slavonic. Not descended from it like the Romance languages are from Latin but like I said, once nearly the same but it gradually changed. (They're still fairly similar though, about like this is to Tyndale's or maybe Chaucer's English: largely intelligible but weird-sounding.)

Thank you, Serge. I agree: even though I've never been schooled in Old Church Slavonic, I can easily understand pretty much every sentence in any prayer or akathist or kontakion written in this language, because I grew up in the former USSR and Russian is one of my two "first" languages (Ukrainian is the other). But it does, indeed, sound very strange. There are even some jokes about it. Smiley

As for the vernacular Russian being once very similar to the Old Church Slavonic, I think it's a bit more complicated. During the early Middle Ages, a part of the population of the Kievan Rus allegedly spoke the language of the "Slovo o Polku Igoreve" ("The Poem About the Military Expedition of Prince Igor," a 12th century document that some consider a forgery, sort of like Ossian's). Another part, especially in the northeastern region, apparently spoke languages and dialects of Finnish origin (just consider the toponyms - Moskva, Vyaz'ma, Tot'ma, Klyaz'ma, Kostroma, Muroma etc. - "va" is a Finnish root for water and "ma" for river).
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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2007, 12:17:11 PM »

Actually, I have met several Old Believers here in America who actually suggest traditional English for Liturgy as it wouldn't make sense for one to use a foreign language.  One has to remember that the Old Believers are not a homogenius group, even those similar and many in fact considered Old Believers are not.  Also, Mr Alderman and fatman were neither raised in the Old Believer sects and I suspect that neither have much contact with them either.  Thus, take their word with a grain of salt.

Greetings Dantxny,

The Old Believers, for the most part, have all compromised their faith. How can a practicing American keep the Old Faith? I suspect that most of the people on this forum were not raised Eastern Orthodox yet they manage to speak their minds well enough here. I do have regular contact with many Old Believers from around the world. As for me I sure hope to be and remain salty.

Forgive, John



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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2007, 12:27:31 PM »

So most of the Old Believers have compromised the faith. Next we will learn that only a solopsist has not.
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« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2007, 12:33:04 PM »

So most of the Old Believers have compromised the faith. Next we will learn that only a solopsist has not.


I don't know very much about Old believers but this gentleman is obviously a Protestant. He has no bishop and he believes all  bishops are in apostasy. It is delusional faith to trust oneself or to trust a network of others who have no responsibilty for the soul's of those they advise. Protestantism.

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« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2007, 12:34:30 PM »

The Old Believers, for the most part, have all compromised their faith.
And only you and a select few have painstakingly managed to hold to the Truth.  Roll Eyes You're free to hold whatever beliefs you wish, John. But when you explode onto an English speaking forum blasting English (esp when it's the only language you're fluent in), you're not going to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2007, 12:34:45 PM »

Greetings Elisha,

How is it loving to reject the law and accept Latin reforms and still believe that Orthodoxy exists therein?

If there was ever a good answer to this I might begin to believe that the Old Believers are the unloving ones.

Forgive, John


John,
Where did I even mention Latin reforms?  I think you're putting words in my mouth.  I'm speaking in generalities with respect to many events that have happened far earlier than any Old Believer schism or "Latinizations" of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2007, 12:36:46 PM »

Oh by the way Tamara, I was replying to his statement that he referred to most of the Old Beleivers as compromisers. I was not criticizing the Old Believers per se (think I had missed a detail).
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« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2007, 12:39:46 PM »

Oh by the way Tamara, I was replying to his statement that he referred to most of the Old Beleivers as compromisers. I was not criticizing the Old Believers per se (think I had missed a detail).

I understand. I wasn't criticizing Old Believers either but I think this gentleman's faith is a type of Protestantism.
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« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2007, 03:22:28 PM »

Some time back I had read postings by a "John Alden" (assuming that they are the same person) on another EO board. It was similar to this, and iirc at that time he was not part of any Old Believer group.  One wonders if he is now.

Ebor
[/quote

Greetings Ebor,

For three years, I, along with those strict Old Believers that I have been with, consider me to be at an introductory level to the strict Old Believers known as the Pomorsky. As far as I know there are no Old Believers here in San Diego, if that is what you mean, except when they are visiting me or with me. If I learn of any other strict Old Believers that are within reach I would very much desire to participate with them. There really are not many of them and they do stay away from outsiders, so they are difficult to locate. When the Lord returns it will be like the days of Noah, when his group only amounted to eight people, or it will be worse than the days of Sodom where only Lot's family escaped, minus his wife that left only three people. So do not expect to find much of an example of them around. As for me, who am I? Just a lowly American and son of American's, but willing to practice this good old way that is lost for all intents and purposes. Really these are those times when the whole juristiction/group mentality gets thrown out the window anyway. If anyone was really serious I could perhaps reveal more of the details of exactly those people on earth that I worship, pray and learn scripture from. But that would be of a more personal nature that I would want to disclose in this forum. Here in this place it is not possible for me to point and say exactly where I belong, but I was given a quazi baptism by a Greek priest and an OCA priest, so it is not like this forum is unkown ground to me. I will not be participating in this forum much longer, but at least a few people might better understand me for the effort. At least that is something.

Forgive, John





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« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2007, 03:30:46 PM »

Greetings Ebor,

 The word mongoloid, at that place, is related to the more important word that immediatly follows it, muslims. Most dictionaries suggest that a secondary meaning of the word is offensive towards Down syndrome, I do not mean to use the word in that secondary meaning.

Yes, the word has been used in the past for persons with Down Syndrome.  It is not in favour and is offensive.  As to Muslims, some people that because Muslim were from Asia such as the Seljuk Turks, but many Muslim people are of Semitic origins, just for informations sake.

If I may make a suggestion, and meaning no offense to you on this, one solid block of text can be difficult to read and to make ones ideas and different lines of thought clear.  Breaking your post up into paragraphs would be most helpful.  

Quote
Any study of the downfall of Constantinople (something I suggest you do)

One wonders why you think that you know what I have studied.  You are mistaken in thinking that I do not know anything about the conquests of the Ottoman Empire.

Quote
I work to control those raised eyebrows, something I am sure you cannot understand at this point.

Such remarks about persons that do not agree with oneself are not likely to be helpful. You do not know me personally, nor what I know or have studied.  Your "sureness" comes off as patronizing.

Ebor


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« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2007, 03:33:10 PM »

If I may make another suggestion, Mr. Alden, please modify your last post so that the 'quote' brackets can set your text outside for more clarity.  I am not trying to give you a hard time, but making posts easier to read helps in discussions.

Ebor
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« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2007, 06:09:04 PM »

If I may make another suggestion, Mr. Alden, please modify your last post so that the 'quote' brackets can set your text outside for more clarity.  I am not trying to give you a hard time, but making posts easier to read helps in discussions.

Ebor

Greetings Ebor,

No hard time felt here. You can just call me John, not giving you a hard time, it just might be easier. I will watch how the quotes go from now on to prevent that from happening.

Forgive, John





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« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2007, 06:30:57 PM »

And only you and a select few have painstakingly managed to hold to the Truth.  Roll Eyes You're free to hold whatever beliefs you wish, John. But when you explode onto an English speaking forum blasting English (esp when it's the only language you're fluent in), you're not going to be taken seriously.


Greetings Jibrail Almuhajir,

Most people have never taken Christ seriously either, I am in good company.

Forgive, John





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« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2007, 08:04:40 PM »

I was surprised to learn that the ROCOR Old Rite church in Erie has services in English!
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« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2007, 08:22:24 PM »

I was surprised to learn that the ROCOR Old Rite church in Erie has services in English!

I would not expect anything less from "unionists" who worship with beard shaving cross dressers and transvestites, etc.

Understanding the authentic Christian rules for beards assists in determining what is what:

http://mymartyrdom.com/rhb.htm

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« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2007, 10:54:04 PM »

I would not expect anything less from "unionists" who worship with beard shaving cross dressers and transvestites, etc.

Understanding the authentic Christian rules for beards assists in determining what is what:

http://mymartyrdom.com/rhb.htm

I don't care what you think of us "apostate" Orthodox, but such insulting language applied to the clergy and faithful of any Christian tradition represented on this board will not be tolerated.


Greetings board,

We all make our choices as far as how we each are believe. I will let God judge between us, as it is He that will ultimately do the judging of each of us. It is not my fault that modernist Orthodox Churches insult God left and right. So we are going round and round here. We all offend, woe to those who offend first. Who do you suppose contradicted God first, me or the modern minded Orthodox Churches? Perhaps it is good thing to be banned from such a board. I care about everyone, the truth often sees insulting. I ask you all to reconsider. What was the stand of the Russian Orthodox Church from the start with regard to the trimming of beards and wiskers? Is it merely a clerical concern only, or for all Orthodox men? When did it begin to be permitted for men to shave their face clean like a woman? It was Peter the Great, that Russian snake, who was so western minded that he changed nearly everything in Russia to be like the heretical western christians. As for me I reject such Latin reforms and I offer others who would make the sacred their own to step aside now, time is truly shorter than ever before.

Forgive, John





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« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2007, 11:16:56 PM »


Greetings board,

We all make our choices as far as how we each are believe. I will let God judge between us, as it is He that will ultimately do the judging of each of us. It is not my fault that modernist Orthodox Churches insult God left and right. So we are going round and round here. We all offend, woe to those who offend first. Who do you suppose contradicted God first, me or the modern minded Orthodox Churches? Perhaps it is good thing to be banned from such a board. I care about everyone, the truth often sees insulting. I ask you all to reconsider. What was the stand of the Russian Orthodox Church from the start with regard to the trimming of beards and wiskers? Is it merely a clerical concern only, or for all Orthodox men? When did it begin to be permitted for men to shave their face clean like a woman? It was Peter the Great, that Russian snake, who was so western minded that he changed nearly everything in Russia to be like the heretical western christians. As for me I reject such Latin reforms and I offer others who would make the sacred their own to step aside now, time is truly shorter than ever before.

Forgive, John
Yet you have not given us any reason to believe that you speak truth here.
  • You disparage those whose witness we respect as truthful or knowledgable by calling them heretics or ignorant, rather than try to convince us from those sources you and we both deem authoritative.
  • You submit posts that show a grossly inaccurate understanding of history; your post elsewhere that God gave the Law to Moses as a response to the sin of the golden calf is a classic example.
  • You have so far evaded grilling from Ebor and myself (in the posts listed below).
  • You utter statements that blatantly contradict your reason for even posting on this board.  Frankly, most people here think you a nut job for no other reason than the utter contradiction that you call the Internet demonic, yet you use the Internet to preach your faith and way of life on an online discussion board.  If the Internet is demonic, then DON'T USE IT!  Otherwise, you corrupt yourself just by posting here.

Ebor's questions on "Old Believers"

Ebor's questions on "English Language"

PeterTheAleut's questions on "English Language"
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« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2007, 11:23:34 PM »


Greetings board,

We all make our choices as far as how we each are believe. I will let God judge between us, as it is He that will ultimately do the judging of each of us. It is not my fault that modernist Orthodox Churches insult God left and right. So we are going round and round here. We all offend, woe to those who offend first. Who do you suppose contradicted God first, me or the modern minded Orthodox Churches? Perhaps it is good thing to be banned from such a board. I care about everyone, the truth often sees insulting. I ask you all to reconsider. What was the stand of the Russian Orthodox Church from the start with regard to the trimming of beards and wiskers? Is it merely a clerical concern only, or for all Orthodox men? When did it begin to be permitted for men to shave their face clean like a woman? It was Peter the Great, that Russian snake, who was so western minded that he changed nearly everything in Russia to be like the heretical western christians. As for me I reject such Latin reforms and I offer others who would make the sacred their own to step aside now, time is truly shorter than ever before.

Forgive, John

I wouldn't take it too hard, one of our best and favourite posters, TomS, was banned recently. (And there's probably a halfway decent chance I will be as well before too long).

And this is coming from a liberal, modernist, pro-crossdressing, anti-traditionalist, pro-mason, universalist, ecumenist, anti-monastic, deistic, evolutionist, caesaropapist devotee to Constantiople that hasn't agreed with a single word you've posted to this forum.

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« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2007, 12:24:14 AM »

[ liberal, modernist, pro-crossdressing, anti-traditionalist, pro-mason, universalist, ecumenist, anti-monastic, deistic, evolutionist, caesaropapist devotee to Constantiople ]That's one hell of a disrespectful label...and it appears a little discipline is in order.

james
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« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2007, 12:25:56 AM »

Quote
Greetings board,

We all make our choices as far as how we each are believe. I will let God judge between us, as it is He that will ultimately do the judging of each of us. It is not my fault that modernist Orthodox Churches insult God left and right. So we are going round and round here. We all offend, woe to those who offend first. Who do you suppose contradicted God first, me or the modern minded Orthodox Churches? Perhaps it is good thing to be banned from such a board. I care about everyone, the truth often sees insulting. I ask you all to reconsider. What was the stand of the Russian Orthodox Church from the start with regard to the trimming of beards and wiskers? Is it merely a clerical concern only, or for all Orthodox men? When did it begin to be permitted for men to shave their face clean like a woman? It was Peter the Great, that Russian snake, who was so western minded that he changed nearly everything in Russia to be like the heretical western christians. As for me I reject such Latin reforms and I offer others who would make the sacred their own to step aside now, time is truly shorter than ever before.

Forgive, John

John,

With all due respect, this sounds fanatical. I admire your sincerity; however, do you realize that only a tiny fraction of Orthodox are "old believers". I would hope this would give you pause. I think the monks of Mt. Athos would have quite differing viewpoints than yours.
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« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2007, 12:26:18 AM »

[ liberal, modernist, pro-crossdressing, anti-traditionalist, pro-mason, universalist, ecumenist, anti-monastic, deistic, evolutionist, caesaropapist devotee to Constantiople ]That's one hell of a disrespectful label...and it appears a little discipline is in order.

james

That would be an awesome way to go, 'Banned for self-deprecating comments.' LMAO, a few mods might even give it a go Wink
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« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2007, 12:28:31 AM »

That would be an awesome way to go, 'Banned for self-deprecating comments.' LMAO, a few mods might even give it a go Wink

And I thought it was his "Peculiar Aristocratic Title"...
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« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2007, 12:28:57 AM »

Quote
liberal, modernist, pro-crossdressing, anti-traditionalist, pro-mason, universalist, ecumenist, anti-monastic, deistic, evolutionist, caesaropapist devotee to Constantiople ]That's one hell of a disrespectful label...and it appears a little discipline is in order.

I am part of the OCA and I havent met any anti-traditionaist, Pro-mason, universalist, ect.... Orthodox at all. What in the world is this guy talking about?? Is this "old believer" propaganda. If it were true, that would be one thing, but its a flat out lie.
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« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2007, 12:34:29 AM »

I wouldn't take it too hard, one of our best and favourite posters, TomS, was banned recently. (And there's probably a halfway decent chance I will be as well before too long).

And this is coming from a liberal, modernist, pro-crossdressing, anti-traditionalist, pro-mason, universalist, ecumenist, anti-monastic, deistic, evolutionist, caesaropapist devotee to Constantiople that hasn't agreed with a single word you've posted to this forum.

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ROTFLM*O!!!  This is the best **** piece of satire I've seen in a long time! Cheesy  Oh, wait.  GiC wrote it. Sad
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« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2007, 12:35:24 AM »

ROTFLM*O!!!  This is the best **** piece of satire I've seen in a long time! Cheesy  Oh, wait.  GiC wrote it. Sad

Grin
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« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2007, 12:44:15 AM »

GIC,

Just take your muti-labled self behind the wood shed and...

With luck it might make it on youtube...

james
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« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2007, 12:48:27 AM »

GIC,

Just take your muti-labled self behind the wood shed and...

With luck it might make it on youtube...

james

I don't know whether to be flattered or offended...Wink
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« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2007, 07:51:32 AM »

Peter,     regarding the interface on my quotes mentioned in reply #58: each time this has happened other posts were registering and mine had already generated even though the system then prompted me for a review.
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« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2007, 12:58:04 PM »



Most people have never taken Christ seriously either, I am in good company.

Forgive, John
Whatever that means.  Huh  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2007, 01:00:42 PM »

Whatever that means.  Huh  Roll Eyes
Well, he does run a website called "My Martyrdom." It fits that he would be looking for persecution where it ain't.
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« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2007, 05:45:30 PM »

It has been a common occurance, Ytterbiumanalyst, that some people work it out as "The Scriptures say that the righteous/truth tellers/etc.  will be persecuted.  People don't agree with me or accept what I say without question.  Therefore I am persecuted and that means I'm right."  There's a logical flaw there, I know.  Wink

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« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2007, 06:35:55 PM »

It has been a common occurance, Ytterbiumanalyst, that some people work it out as "The Scriptures say that the righteous/truth tellers/etc.  will be persecuted.  People don't agree with me or accept what I say without question.  Therefore I am persecuted and that means I'm right."  There's a logical flaw there, I know.  Wink

Ebor

Yes. And also, "martyros" in Greek, AFAIK, does not mean "one who is persecuted." It literally means "witness" - right, o ye knowing Greek? Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2007, 07:57:47 PM »

I don't understand Hopeful Faithful (as I'm sure most dont either) but I read through this whole post and he seems to have had trouble answering any questions so ill make it easy.
  • If you are against electricity, internet, motor vehicles or anything remotely modern why do you continue to use these "devilish" things?
  • What evidence can you give that the old believers hold the "untainted" holy Apostolic and Catholic church?
  • What latin innovations do the Eastern Orthodox currently contain?
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« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2007, 09:41:01 AM »

I don't think his inability to answer the questions has anything to do with how we asked them.
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« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2007, 11:01:22 AM »

Good point about the meanings, plural, of martyros but again that site either exemplifies or sends up self-destructive convert pathology, inconsistencies and all. ('Modern technology is evil!' But the person is online.)
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« Reply #99 on: July 26, 2007, 11:27:43 AM »

I feel sorry for Hope and Faithful, much of his anguish re: this world may be heartfelt and surely no one can condemn his solution to live as an Old Believer as not moved by the Holy Spirit. It is however not the only solution and caution should be taken to avoid appearing as trying to be John the Baptist when actually being a pharisee. Perhaps with proper prayer and fasting he will work it out.
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« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2007, 11:06:35 PM »

I feel sorry for Hope and Faithful, much of his anguish re: this world may be heartfelt and surely no one can condemn his solution to live as an Old Believer as not moved by the Holy Spirit.

Yet, from what he has written he does *not* live as an Old Believer.  He talks/writes about it.  But he has not moved to a place where there is a group of Old Believers. He does not worship with any congregation of any stripe I would surmise from what he wrote about not considering there to be any real and proper Bishops on this planet.  He would seem to be quite assured that he is Right and most others (including some Old Believers who are not 'pure' enough or something) are Wrong.  It is really 'anguish' or is it that he has formulated some opinions and is sure of his own ideas and judgements?  He seems quite free to declare that other EO bodies are 'insulting' God, that he *knows* that others are Wrong and his own way is the correct way.  But he is not living the life, by his own admission. 

Quote
It is however not the only solution and caution should be taken to avoid appearing as trying to be John the Baptist when actually being a pharisee. Perhaps with proper prayer and fasting he will work it out.

It seems to me that there aren't many who are called to be like St. John the Baptist, though they may *think* they are.  Most people have much more ordinary paths that God has called on them to walk, maybe.

Ebor
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« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2007, 11:09:39 PM »

Good point about the meanings, plural, of martyros but again that site either exemplifies or sends up self-destructive convert pathology, inconsistencies and all. ('Modern technology is evil!' But the person is online.)

In looking over the site, I found my thoughts switching between "This has got to be an elaborate parody" and "He seems to be in deadly earnest."  It almost gave me a mental whip-lash.  Wink

Ebor
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« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2008, 11:00:42 PM »

To give the Old Believers some credit, they do follow certain traditions that I think the whole Eastern Orthodox Church should follow. This would include having longer church services (many places have shortened them), having more traditional icons, and more traditional music (monophonic). The first of three I think is most important of all, and a very big issue in America. In places like Russia and Greece, the church still keeps the whole service, but we fat lazy Americans (including me) like to sit in our pews and are used to a 1 hour service once a week (I know, churches are not quite that bad yet). What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies? In some Russian churches, they can make the liturgy 6 hours, stand the whole time, and endure it without a heater.

What's interesting is everything mentioned above had nothing to do with the Old Believer Schism, but Peter the Great "reforms." I think Old Believers broke off partly because of the harshness in which Patriarch Nikon imposed his reforms. Therefore the church held an ecumenical council and demoted him to monk. But what do Old Ritualists have against his reforms when they were in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church also for 600 years?
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« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2008, 11:20:06 PM »

To give the Old Believers some credit, they do follow certain traditions that I think the whole Eastern Orthodox Church should follow. This would include having longer church services (many places have shortened them), having more traditional icons, and more traditional music (monophonic). The first of three I think is most important of all, and a very big issue in America. In places like Russia and Greece, the church still keeps the whole service, but we fat lazy Americans (including me) like to sit in our pews and are used to a 1 hour service once a week (I know, churches are not quite that bad yet). What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies? In some Russian churches, they can make the liturgy 6 hours, stand the whole time, and endure it without a heater.

What's interesting is everything mentioned above had nothing to do with the Old Believer Schism, but Peter the Great "reforms." I think Old Believers broke off partly because of the harshness in which Patriarch Nikon imposed his reforms. Therefore the church held an ecumenical council and demoted him to monk. But what do Old Ritualists have against his reforms when they were in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church also for 600 years?

Sometimes there are those that love traditions more than Christ.
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« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2008, 01:00:06 AM »

Just out of curiosity, are the old rituals still allowed in canonical Orthodox Churches? I know the anathemas have been lifted, but is it wrong to do the old rituals? I really don't see any reason why we would still do them.
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« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2008, 07:47:04 AM »

Just out of curiosity, are the old rituals still allowed in canonical Orthodox Churches? I know the anathemas have been lifted, but is it wrong to do the old rituals? I really don't see any reason why we would still do them.

Yup it is allowed, the ROCOR has some Old-Rite parishes and Bishop Daniel of Erie is the Vicar of the President of the Synod of Bishops for the service of Old Believers.
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« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2008, 05:26:35 PM »

An interesting thing is that Old Believers call the Nikonion Reforms Latin, but don't they have some old Latin ideas? Like the scripture can only be in Old Church Slavonic. Ironically, Cyril and Medthodius got beat up by certain Latin clerics (only some, the Pope wasn't against the two) for translating the scriptures into Slavonic (at this time Old Church Slavonic). Although Catholics don't believe in this anymore, this seems very similar to the old Catholic stance that the scriptures should only be in either Greek, Latin, or Hebrew (the languages written on the Cross), or else it is an unholy language. I don't understand what made Old Church Slavonic a "Holy" language and Church Slavonic an "unholy" language.
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« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2008, 01:34:10 AM »

Antiderivative wrote:

"What if every American church started doing 4 hour liturgies?"

 Roll Eyes

Methinks Antiderivative does not have any kids. When you have children, you may rethink the wisdom of 4-hour liturgies!

Okay, so Russian services are 6 hours long. So what? Though I've never been there, everything I've read has stated that Russian church attendance rates are dismal even after the fall of Communism (as is true for almost all European countries) when compared to the U.S.

So I think if we wanted to decrease church attendence rates in our own country, insisting on 6-hour services would be the most expedient way to do that!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2008, 08:33:42 AM »

Eugenio, you have some very good points. There are times my eight-month-old daughter is screaming on Wednesday evening, and we rethink going to church just for the daily Vespers (about 35-45 minutes at my parish). She can usually make it okay through our hour-and-a-half Liturgy; the music keeps her interested, and sometimes she can nap. But it's never long after Liturgy concludes that she gets herself all worked up.

I think if we did serve St. James' Liturgy or another equally long one, we'd probably just show up for the last couple of hours anyway. It'd be a shame to miss half the Liturgy, but it'd be better than having to leave early and missing the Eucharist.

And I do believe we'd see a lot fewer converts if we had such a long Liturgy. Protestants and Catholics alike are accustomed to 1 to 1 1/2 hours. If we were in the days of tent revivals still, we may see Protestants with such stamina, but we just don't these days. St. John's Liturgy and St. Basil's are both beautiful, and neither takes longer than two hours. Since we have these Liturgies available, I think it would be prudent at this point for the American Church to use them.
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« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2008, 10:19:38 AM »

I'm not sure what my great-grandmother did with 12 children at liturgy in church slavonic? To be fair I think the older children sang in the choir, served on the altar and helped with the babies!I mean Matins beforehand and in those days they read the bulletin as well since no one had copiers.  My grandmother had 8 children they took to mass.. but I know how that went.  I'm still afraid to fidget or turn around in church  police
But there isn't any need to pile on prayers just to make a service longer for aesthetics or feel goodness in a parish.
A parish isn't a monastery.  On the one hand it would be nice to see people say "Father can we have Matins before Sunday Divine Liturgy if we get a few people together to sing it."  But on the other hand just piling on prayers to make things longer because it seems more "Orthodox" isn't a valid reason to do so.  Prayer done with quality is better than prayer done for quantity. 
And truthfully Vespers is an evening service and Matins is the morning Service.  So the need to stand in church for 6 hours on a Saturday night isn't more "Orthodox." 
I realize it is a Russian small tradition (somehow people get small tradition mixed up with Tradition) to have hours Vespers hours Matins hours with Confessions on Saturday evenings but it isn't the tradition of the entire Orthodox world. 
While visiting a Monastery may pump you up and make you think every parish should be in church most of the weekend before Sunday Liturgy that's not how it flies in the parish.

And remember there really is no "I" in team.  I realize (haha I used I) that we Americans often think we have some right to always say "I this, I that, I want, I like, I don't like, I think..." but when it comes to the Body of Christ, the Church, the community of gathered believers united by the Eucharist there isn't really an "I" per se.
So while some of us may want this or that we must remember that there are others that belong to the parish as well and have different circumstances  etc..  that the priest pastorally guides the flock the best he can and be fair to all. 
For instance in many parishes around here you won't find Matins.  Shocking, surprising, oh my!  Not really.  It takes people to sing Matins.  Often in parishes one person was the professor/cantor/choir director.  Many times the cantor knew all the details and so forth for just about all the services.  She could have told you that on this feast day you sing this while Father blessed that and walked around the tetrapod thrice and did this and you sang that in tone 6 but then went back to tone 2 because that's the tone for that feast. 
So what happens is that the cantor passes on and the knowledge and organization dies with her.  Or something happens in the parish after her passing or when she's in the nursing home.  Anyone that would have remembered half of what she knew either left the parish or moved. In the meantime services go from Church Slavonic to English which equates to a huge change as well and without the leadership of the cantor/choir director who knew everything in Church Slavonic to help the transition... I mean a million different things happen and there are many reasons.  So then you have different people that may not know exactly how to serve/sing all the services.  So really as complicated as my post seems it shows that there are often reasons larger than our own and more complex as to why somethings just don't occur in all parishes. 

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« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2008, 10:28:30 AM »

^Agreed, and regarding what you've mentioned above, I would love to learn more about why certain tones are used for feasts versus a "normal" Sunday (if there is such a thing Wink).  Part of the problem in my parish is that we have a hard time getting the choir together for practice and our directress has a long drive back home where she usually works in the evenings.  Our choir just doesn't have much time together to learn and practice what we should know.  That affects singing matins (which is usually done by our directress, Mr. Y, and me), any special parts of the liturgy (like commemorating the saints), etc.  We have few people who are really interested in choir and come to services regularly.   Cry
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« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2008, 04:44:56 PM »

I am really interested in the choir and the liturgy in general ( coming as I do from a tradition without one ) but I can't sing.   Tongue Is there a way I can still be involved/learn a lot???
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« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2008, 01:32:04 PM »

Sure! I couldn't sing either before I joined the choir. I just stood next to another bass and tried my best to copy what he did. After doing this every week for over a year, eventually I found I could hold a tune myself. Many times the best way to learn to do something is to do it.
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« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2008, 03:03:58 PM »

I am really interested in the choir and the liturgy in general ( coming as I do from a tradition without one ) but I can't sing.   Tongue Is there a way I can still be involved/learn a lot???

Take some voice lessons.  I'm not joking either, I'm being serious.  It'll help and think even professional singers probably still have some form of a coach.
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« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2008, 03:48:59 PM »

Sure! I couldn't sing either before I joined the choir. I just stood next to another bass and tried my best to copy what he did. After doing this every week for over a year, eventually I found I could hold a tune myself. Many times the best way to learn to do something is to do it.

I agree.  Before I started attending a Greek Catholic church I couldn't hold a tune.  After 8 years of singing prostopinije, I have found that I can do so now, so much so that my wife was astonished at how well I sung one of my band's songs on a homemade demo a couple months ago.  Even I was surprised.  It's not great, but it's not caterwauling, either.  I believe singing is one of those things that everyone can do at least passably.  Some can do it out of the gate while most need to practice at it, some more than others.  You might not end up sounding like a professional singer, but you'll be able to at least use the range you have once you know how to do it. 

Find someone who can sing and ask to be their shadow.  Don't expect to hit all the notes, especially the high/low ones.  Learn what your voice is capable of and how to control it so you can follow along.  Don't be afraid to fail or come up short from time to time.  You'll get the hang of it and once you learn the basics of control, don't be afraid to push your limits a bit.
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« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2008, 03:49:50 PM »

Take some voice lessons.  I'm not joking either, I'm being serious.  It'll help and think even professional singers probably still have some form of a coach.

You are quite correct in this.  I know a voice teacher who numbers professionals and semi-pros among her students.  

Ebor
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« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2008, 06:18:28 PM »

You guys are getting off topic. We were talking about how Old Believers, myself included, are superior, and have preserved the faith.
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« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2008, 06:19:18 PM »

3......2.......1.......
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« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2008, 06:35:26 PM »

You guys are getting off topic.
Indeed!  Please, everyone, back on topic.
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