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« on: July 13, 2007, 07:43:47 PM »

The arch-heretic, Augustine of Hippo, teacher of no fewer than 8 major heresies, has been a large cause of the many false Christianities of our times. He wrote in Latin and the Westerners have taken him in, hook, line and sinker. In the East today there is confusion also. The truth is never confusing, but with error confusion abounds. The modern Orthodox have commemorated him as a Saint, Blessed and Divine. Orthodox Saints have defended him, like Photios the Great and John of Shanghai, not very saintly of them.

We hold the faith of those we hold dear, like it or not. If we follow the example of those in error we are in error. We are not to stand in worship with those who are in falsehood, or with those who stand in worship with those who are in falsehood, unless we want to stay dead like all of them. The only hope of faith in love is to keep ourselves unspotted from the evils of this world like these.

This is my short review of the booklet above and the 8 items listed.

(1) The Filioque – At many places in the work On the Trinity Augustine teaches the Filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). We can only know what has been told to us by good authority, like “the Spirit of truth Who proceedeth from the Father” John 15:26. Contradictorily of good example his bad theological work explains things like, “the Spirit proceeds from the Son” while writing On the Trinity.

(2) Inherited Guilt – In the Enchiridion Augustine states that Adam, and in turn everyone else, are “in the bonds of inherited guilt”. I do not know where he got that idea but there can be no doubt that it was not a good source. Inheriting the guilt of another person is never suggested by those in Faith. Yes, there can be consequences, but not guilt, there is a big difference. To say otherwise is without support and contradictory to the truth. With the Soul and its Origin Book IV, Chapter 16 he says, “Even if there were within men nothing but original sin, it would be sufficient for their condemnation.”

(3) Redefining of Baptism – The true teachings of baptism state that the faithful, “are buried with Him by baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” Romans 6:4. Augustine says otherwise, that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, in his Tractates.   

(4) Predestination and Irresistible Grace – Double Predestination is another departure from what is right. Augustine says that for those going to “the Kingdom of God...none may be added or subtracted... [while the rest] depart with the inherited debt,” Rebuke and Grace. If God destined anyone anywhere how would He “not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 In his book On the Predestination of the Saints Augustine teaches that God “chose and predestined us that we might be so” and writes in the On the Gift of Perseverance, “The Gift of God” is that “No saint fails to persevere in holiness to the end”. What kind of love would there be if God irresistibly forced it upon those not capable of doing the good?

(5) The Disavowal of Free Will – To counter the Pelagianist heretics Augustine made the contrary and wrong idea that we have no free will. The writing, On Grace and Free Will, Chapter 41 explains, “God Himself converts the will of man from evil to good” and further that God disposes those who do evil by saying “He (God) turns them wherever and whenever He wills”. (Never mind real Orthodoxy which teaches synergy between God and mankind.)

(6) Confusion on Trinity; Essence and Energies – There are aspects to God that are important not to confuse. Augustine taught that, with regard to the Holy Spirit, there “has not been...enough discussion about the subject” On Faith and the Creed. The Symbol of Faith, and the Council that defined it, where not enough for this inventor. This is how and why he postulated the Filioque, but he even went farther than that in contradicting what God is. In the same work Augustine explains that the Holy Spirit is the “love between the Father and the Son” as the Romanides Page shows. Augustine has confused the essence and hypostasis and energies of the true Holy Trinity.

(7) Old Testament Created Theophanies – Augustine believed and taught that Christ was not present or active in Israel before the Incarnation. Augustine says, “All those appearances were wrought through a creature.  They were wrought by angels. Not only the visible things, but the world itself was wrought by angels.” On the Trinity, Book 3, Chapters 11, 22, 26. Augustine follows the heresies of the Manichaeans and the Gnostics on these points.

(Cool Valid Heretical Baptisms – Augustine was full of very definite contradictions. Here is another quote of his, for illustration: “Heretics have lawful baptism unlawfully.”  From On Baptism, Book 5, Chapter 6.  St. Athanasios begs to differ with him, “There are many other heresies too, which use the words only, but not in a right sense, as I have said, nor with sound Faith, and in consequence the water which they administer is unprofitable, as deficient in piety, so that he who is sprinkled by them is rather polluted by the irreligious than redeemed.” from Discourses against the Arians, Discourse 1, Chapter 17. In agreement with St. Athanasios and showing the criminal minds of those who follow Augustine in this matter, St. Cyprian in his Epistle LXXIII to Pompey says, “Dearest brother, we must consider, for the sake of the Faith and the religion of the sacerdotal office which we discharge, whether the account can be satisfactory in the day of judgment for a priest of God, who maintains, approves and acquiesces in the baptism of blasphemers, when the Lord threatens and says, ‘And now, O priests, this commandment is to you. If ye will not harken, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory to My name,’ saith the Lord Almighty, ‘then I will bring a curse upon your blessing’ Malachi 2:12. Does he give glory to God, who judges that remission of sins is granted among those who blaspheme against God?”

On Page 58 in this Voice of Orthodoxy edition on Augustine are given these words. “All of this, we hope, will give you good reason to judge this man and his teachings as unworthy of any veneration or reverence, for he has reaped much destruction upon our Holy Orthodox Church. Augustine is neither a saint, nor a Church Father.”

The booklet also gives references to different Saints that resoundingly echo the right understanding about Augustine. St. John Cassian took exception to Augustine’s views, others like St. Hilary of Arles, St. Honoratus hermit of Lerins, St. Gennadius of Marseilles, St. Faustus of Riez, the ecclesiastical writer Arnobius the younger and the Churches of Britain and Ireland. In 415 Palestinian bishops disapproved of Augustine’s views. Those who mistakenly called him “blessed” like Photios and Mark of Ephesus never studied Augustine. The Calvinist Patriarch Cyril Lukaris had his Augustinian book condemned by the Synods of Constantinople, Jassey and Bethlehem (Calvin said he could support himself totally on Augustine). As Peter the Great embraced the western ways he introduced Augustine to Russia. St. Gregory Palamas taught against the Augustine teaching of Predestination saying, “How do you participate in the divine nature if grace is not somehow an extension of It?” The final words spoken by Augustine at his death were a passage of the Pagan philosopher Plotinus which speaks loudly for Augustine’s heretical predisposition. After seeing “Augustine's Retractions” how can we say that Augustine corrected any of these monumental errors?

Another really sad thing is that for centuries modern Orthodoxy has returned a rather deaf ear to the truth by allowing people like Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (1749-1809) to place Augustine’s name in the Greek Synaxaristes (June 15th). A troparion was also made by Michael Kritoboulos. The Greek and Russian Churches recognize and commemorate Augustine to this day.

I do not know how anyone could deny that Augustine has influenced the Western world in the bad ways of systematic scholasticism and through that brought this antichrist secularism we see everywhere around us.

Supremacy of the Pope is something else that people use Augustine to support: “Rome has spoken; the case is closed” (a summary of Augustine's Sermon 131:10). And there are things like total depravity which I have not really gone into very much that at some time I hope to do.

Augustinianism is not only accepting his many errors, but simply calling the unholy holy is. Saying that Augustine is a Saint when he ain't is big trouble. Recognizing him in commemoration is just as bad. Being in spiritual union with those who follow such falsehoods puts us in the same falsehoods.

Source: http://mymartyrdom.com/au.htm



I recognize that St. Augustine's legacy in the Eastern churches is quite controversial, so we don't mean to discourage honest and respectful debate of his doctrines.  However, your treatment of St. Augustine is far too abrasive and inflammatory--not to mention utterly blasphemous of the saint's memory--for us moderators to allow this to continue.  Seeing that you've been warned multiple times about your incendiary posting style, we deem it necessary now to review any posts you want to submit to this forum to make sure they're appropriate.
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 08:06:51 PM »

I'll take St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco over any kind of boilerplate rant that does not engage with other human beings. 

Who are you to declare him or others "unsaintly" because you have some other opinion?

Who are you to lay down declarations about Christian faith and praxis?

On what authority besides your own self do you do this? How does one know that you even have a good understanding of the subjects that you fulminate against? (fulminate:  rail (criticize severely).   http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fulminate )

Why should any other Human Being accept your pontificating unquestioned please?
(n.b. "Pontificate: talk in a dogmatic and pompous manner" http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=pontificate second verb definition).

Is the site that you took your OP yours or are you taking someone else's material without their knowledge or permission?

Do you ever engage in discussion with persons who ask questions and do not accept your words unchallenged?  Or are such displays your idea of "Christian Witness in love and charity"?

Ebor

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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 08:44:16 PM »

From a post I made 2 1/2 years ago...

_______________
Nicholas was kind enough to provide some information, so I suppose the best place to start is with the information/points which have already been provided:

Quote
In 1968 the State Church of Greece added Augustine's name to the Church Calendar. Other Churches followed that example.

While Augustine's name might have been added in 1968 to the Calendars used by some Churches, he had long been considered a saint, as a careful review of the contemporary and ancient teachers of our Church demonstrate. Since the facts provided to us by Nicholas proceed in a (more or less) reverse chronological order, it would perhaps be best to likewise go backwards in time as we consider the available information. So, let's start in the 20th century and start working our way backwards.

According to Fr. Seraphim Rose, "in the official calendar of one of the 'Old-Calendarist' Greek Churches," Augustine is called "'Saint Augustine the Great" (Emphasis mine). [1] Many (though not all) within the contemporary Russian Church also viewed Augustine as a Saint. As an example, it is said of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco:

Quote
"Archbishop John Maximovitch, when he became ruling bishop of Western Europe, made it a point of showing special reverence for him (together with many other Western Saints); thus, he commissioned the writing of a special church service in his honor (which until then had not existed in the Slavonic Menaion), and this service was officially approved by the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church outside of Russia under the presidency of Metropolitan Anastassy. Archbishop John celebrated this service every year, wherever he might happen to be, on the feast day of Blessed Augustine." [2]

Besides Saint John, and Fr. Seraphim Rose (who wrote an entire book in defense of Augustine), most (if not all) of the other prominent writers in Orthodoxy also seem to have considered Augustine a Saint. Here's some examples: Archbishop Averky (whom some consider a Saint) calls Augustine "Blessed" in his Commentary on the book of Revelation [3]; Fr. Michael Pomazansky calls Augustine "Blessed" eighteen times in his work Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, and quotes Augustine as an authority about a dozen times in this text [4]; and Fr. Georges Florovsky also acknowledged that Augustine was a Saint in his work Bible, Church, Tradition (and probably others). I have no doubts that if I had more books by 20th century theologians, I would find more evidence.

That Augustine was considered a Saint can also be seen in the hagiographical material of the 20th century. The Prologue From Ochrid, for example, which was compiled by Saint Nikolai of Serbia, lists Augustine as a Saint of the Church (June 15th). The admittedly short entry from the Prologue on Augustine says:

Quote
"He was turned from paganism to Christianity through the advice, tears, and prayers of his mother, Monica. He was a great Doctor of the Church and an influential writer, but with certain unacceptable extremes in his teaching. He served and glorified the Lord for thirty-five years as Bishop of Hippo and lived seventy-six years on earth in all, from 354-430." [5] [A note--the Prologue also has short entries on other great luminaries of our Church, such as Bl. Theophylact of Bulgaria]

As we go backwards in time we find other examples of Augustine being considered a Saint. For example, while the State Church of Greece may not have added Augustine to their Calendar until 1968 (I'm assuming that that is a fact, though I've not attempted to verify it), the Russian Church had added Augustine back in the 19th century. And of course, adding someone to a calendar is not an acknowledgement that, up until the addition, a Church had not considered someone to be a Saint. Many western Saints were only added to Orthodox calendars within the past few centuries.

The next piece of information Nicholas provided for us was the following:

Quote
Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain (1749-1809) was given selected writings of Augustine by Uniate visitors. Impressed with the extracts, Nicodemus placed Augustine's name in the Greek Synaxaristes (June 15th) with a troparion by Michael Kritoboulos.

Nobody is infallible, so I wouldn't automatically dismiss the possibility of Saint Nicodemus being tricked. However, I think it should be remembered that Saint Nicodemus was far from ignorant of the writings of the Church Fathers, and the divinely-inspired contents of the Ecumenical and Local Councils. Isn't it probable that the words the holy Fathers used about Augustine had some part to play in the decision of Saint Nicodemus to include Augustine in the Calendar? Saints Mark of Ephesus (15th century) [6] and Photius the Great (9th century) [7] considered Augustine a Saint--perhaps Saint Nicodemus simply reaffirmed what these two great saints had believed?

And these two Saints were not alone. A western example of how Augustine was perceived can be seen in the writings of Saint Bede the Venerable (7th century). A prominent example of Bede's respect for Augustine can be found in his commentary on the First Epistle of John. In his commentary, the Venerable Bede quotes the Church Fathers a total of sixty-one times, with fifty-three(!) of these quotes being from Augustine's works. (What's more, Bede alludes to, but does not directly quote, Augustine three additional times in his commentary on 1 John). [8] Saint Bede was one of the more learned and well-read men in the west at that time, and had obviously read Augustine extensively. It's doubtful that this saint of the Church simply didn't see what some today consider blatant heresy. It's much more likely that Saint Bede just didn't consider Augustine's errors as extreme in nature as some Orthodox do today.

Which brings up a question: which Saints did consider Augustine a heretic? That seems like it'd be a good aspect of this debate to explore. So far as I can see, as we read the other writings of the Saints through the centuries, we see the following consistent pattern: an acknowledgment that Augustine made some errors, and even that some heresies sprung from certain sayings of his, yet a simultaneous and equally forceful acknowledgement that Augustine is in fact a Saint in the Church, and can be quoted as an Authority. But perhaps there are saints that I am not aware of who held a contrary view? If there are, we can discuss that in future posts, but for now I'll move on to the Ecumenical Councils, which also speak of Augustine as a Saint.

Fr. Seraphim Rose mentions in his book on Augustine that the 7th Ecumenical Council praised him (and apparently recognized that he was a saint). [9] Blessed Augustine was also mentioned favorably in The Letter of Pope Agatho to the Emperor and the 6th Ecumenical Council. [10] And during the first session of the 5th Ecumenical Council, Saint Justinian mentions Augustine in the midst of some of the brightest divine lights in the Church's history, making no distinction between the place of Augustine and the other saints mentioned:

Quote
"We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." [11]

To help give a bit of context for this quote, I'd like to quote something else that Saint (Emperor) Justinian said:

Quote
"...we want you to know that after the definition of the holy Synod of Chalcedon had been drawn up, Theodoret too, in that he had written against the Twelve Chapters of St Cyril and had defended the wicked teachings of Nestorius, was ordered to anathematize Nestorius and his impiety and to confess that the holy, glorious, and ever-Virgin Mary was Theotokos before he was received. For this reason, then, neither Ibas nor Theodoret are considered teachers and Fathers, but as men who repented and anathematized those wicked teachings that were the cause of their being accused. When they received the definition of the Synod of Chalcedon and subscribed to it they were received, since it is the custom in the catholic Church that when heretics have left all their error and have returned to the orthodox faith they are received into communion, but they are not reckoned by the fathers as teachers ...We want you to know this as well: not only were Ibas and Theodoret exprelled from the episcopate because they spoke against the Twelve Chapters of St Cyril, but Domnus, Archbishop of Antioch, was censured simply because he had written that one ought to keep silent concerning Cyril's Twelve Chapters." (emphasis mine) [12]

One might also consider Saint Justinian's views on Origen. Clearly, then, Saint Justinian was against counting heretics who had repented of their heresy as teachers or Fathers of the Church. And obviously he would be even more strict with those who were unrepentant (or defended the errors of those who were heretics). I believe we can safely assume (based on the evidence) that Justinian knew that Augustine had made some errors, and indeed that Augustine had "retracted some of his own writings, and corrected some of his own sayings," as the Pope of Rome put it in his Epistle that Confirmed the 5th Ecumenical Council. [13]

Yet, in spite of Augustine's errors, and in spite of his seemingly strict understanding of the doctrinal purity required to be an authoritative teacher, Saint Justinian doesn't hesitate to identify Augustine as a Saint of the Church, both at the Fifth Ecumenical Council and in other texts he wrote. [14] Certainly Augustine had errors--but apparently they weren't severe enough to make Augustine unsuitable to quote as an authority.

We should also note at this point what Nicholas himself told us: that the 4th Ecumenical Council considered Augustine a Holy Father. Whether the Ecumenical Councils under Saints Photius and Palamas mentioned Augustine I don't know, though I don't consider it unlikely. Before we go on to the rest of the information that Nicholas provided, let's sum up what has been said thus far:

- Many prominent and saintly Orthodox thinkers in the past few centuries considered Augustine a Saint.

- Many of the Saints of the Church considered Augustine a Saint, and considered him an authority.

- Augustine was mentioned at the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Ecumenical Councils--always favorably.

This summation brings us up to the mid-5th century. The next piece of information that Nicholas provided for us brings us to the early part of the 5th century:

Quote
In 415, Palestinian bishops of the synods of Jerusalem and Diospolis disapproved of his views.

It is my understanding that the Palestinian bishops were lied to by those very people whom Augustine was writing against. If this is so then Augustine obviously wouldn't be discussed in an even-handed manner. What I'd like to know is, was Augustine condemned at any Council that was deemed Orthodox (e.g., was he condemned at a Local Council that was later confirmed by an Ecumenical Council)? Even if such a condemnation at a Council actually existed, it wouldn't prove that Augustine was a heretic, [15] but it would be evidence I'd be interested in seeing.

If my understanding of the Council mentioned above is correct, then using this Council to demonstrate that Augustine was a heretic would be like using some of Saint Gregory the Theologian's words to demonstrate the Orthodoxy of Maximus the Cynic (who was planted to sway Gregory towards agreeing with the Alexandrian positions, and who eventually--when Gregory couldn't be swayed--betrayed Gregory and was part of his eventual downfall as Patriarch of Constantinople). In other words, sometimes people are wrong and mistakenly praise of condemn someone based on false knowledge: we certainly wouldn't want to take their mistakes and use them to inform our understanding of who is and isn't Orthodox.

(As a clarification of my last point, I'd note that while saints or councils can err, when the mind of the Church accepts something and it becomes obvious what the Orthodox position is, we see less and less possibility of something being misunderstood or false. I'm speaking here, of course, of those types of things which weren't handed down from the Apostles, those traditions we are of course fully sure of. So, while I don't think there's a problem believing that a Father here or a Council there misunderstood Augustine, I think there is a problem in claiming that Augustine was really a heretic and was misunderstood by almost every saint and council for century upon century)

Many people did react to Augustine's exaggerated doctrines, of course; but the question I have is: how many Church Fathers who knew all the [relevant][ facts, and had read Augustine's works, actually condemned him? When Saints such as John Cassian and Vincent of Lerins spoke against the doctrines Augustine promulgated, for example, they didn't openly attacked him, but focused on the erroneus beliefs while passing over the source of the beliefs. They didn't come anywhere near condemning Augustine in their writings. Again, we return to the issue that I brought up before regarding which saints, if any, condemned Augustine as a heretic.

Well, I guess we are now at the last piece of information that Nicholas provided:

Quote
The Fourth Ecumenical council lists him as a holy Father of the Third Ecumenical Council. This is incorrect as he died 10 months before the 3rd Ecumenical Council!

On this point I'm not sure what to say. For the sake of discussion, I'll proceed and assume that the claim is true. My general response to this is to ask a question: Why is this thought to be a persuasive argument against Augustine? I guess I don't quite get it. The point of the argument seems to be that the Council got the date wrong, and so we should not trust the Council's entire view of Augustine. I don't believe that such an all-or-nothing argument is in keeping with the spirit of Orthodoxy, however.

It seems to me that having exact dates was not always a major concern for the Church. For example, was the 2nd Ecumenical Council a Council of 381 only, or both 381 and 382; and if both, why do we usually say it was in 381? We could ask such a question about many events. Or, to look at it another way, consider that we normally speak of the Creed in somewhat incorrect terminology. There were additions to the Creed at the 2nd Ecumenical Council, but how many of us talk about the "Nicene-Constantinopilitan Creed"? Don't we almost always simply call it the Nicene Creed? These are unimportant inaccuracies (or seeming inaccuracies), what is vital is the basic content of the subjects being discussed.

Maybe it's hard for we in the west to understand this approach, since we grew up being taught that accuracy in such matters was of supreme importance (if you wished to be considered a "good scholar"). The Fathers had no problem giving incorrect dates, the Fathers forgot what the names of the first Popes of Rome were and what order they succeeded each other, to put in in a word, the Fathers just didn't seem to be worried about the same types of things that we are. But I guess that's a warning that we need to conform ourselves better to the Church and her teachings and mind and spirit.

Maybe the thd Ecumenical Council meant to speak of Augustine (as relating to the 3rd Ecumenical Council) as being a part of it in the same way that Saint Peter the Apostle was proclaimed as having been a part of the 4th Ecumenical Council. Or, maybe the 4th Ecumenical Council made a mistake. I don't know, I've not seen exactly what the 3rd Council said of Augustine. What I do know is that the majority of Church Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, accept Augustine as a Saint. So be it. So be it.

____________
[1] Fr. Seraphim Rose, The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1996), p. 79
[2] Ibid., p. 79
[3] Archbishop Averky, The Apocalypse: In the Teachings of Ancient Christianity, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1998), p. 258
[4] Fr. Michael Pomazansky, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1997)
[5] Saint Nikolai (Velimirovic), The Prologue From Ochrid, (Lazarica Press, 1986), Volume 2, p. 318
[6] Rose, Augustine, p. 66
[7] Ibid., p. 70
[8] Dom David Hurst, Commentary On the Seven Catholic Epistles, [Cistercian Publications, 1985]
[9] Rose, Augustine, p. 116
[10] Pope Agatho, Letter to the Emperor And The 6th Ecumenical Council
[11] Saint Justinian, Emperor's Letter From the 5th Ecumenical Council
[12] Saint Justinian, A Letter On The Three Chapters (Kenneth P. Wesche, On the Person of Christ: The Christology of Emperor Justinian, [Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1991], pp. 152-153)
[13] Pope Vigilius, Decretal Letter
[14] cf Wesche, Christology, pp. 155-156, 196
[15] I say that it wouldn't prove that Augustine was a heretic because there are precedents in Church history where 1) a Saint, and 2) a Council who condemned that Saint, were both accepted. For example, one of the Local councils whose canons were accepted into Orthodoxy actually confirmed the condemnation of Saint Athanasius. In other words, we ignored the condemnation of Saint Athanasius, but accepted the canons. I don't recall which council this was off the top of my head, but I can get more information if anyone doubts that it's true.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 08:51:17 PM »

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 08:53:32 PM »

If he's a troll, you should ban him (or put him on post moderation). If he's not, he deserves a response. The worst thing would be simply to let him post whatever he wants with no response, to let whoever and their brother come in and assume that what he is saying must be true because no one has tried to respond to him.
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 08:55:17 PM »


Can we cook the troll?  Then the troll could feed us... Cheesy
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 08:57:34 PM »


You beat me to it! I was just about to post the same picture when I saw your post.
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 09:01:32 PM »

Can we cook the troll?  Then the troll could feed us... Cheesy

Errmm.  Doesn't look to appetizing to me.  Cheesy

It's probably lacking in essential nutrients too.

Ebor
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 09:09:33 PM »

Errmm.  Doesn't look to appetizing to me.  Cheesy

It's probably lacking in essential nutrients too.

Ebor

It can't possibly be worse for you than your average fast food meal.  Might even be better.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 09:22:50 PM »

If he's a troll, you should ban him (or put him on post moderation).
Should we?

The worst thing would be simply to let him post whatever he wants with no response, to let whoever and their brother come in and assume that what he is saying must be true because no one has tried to respond to him.
I see. So what you are saying is that we should ban or put on post moderation those who post views we consider untrue?

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 09:28:44 PM »

Obviously the subject was trolls, not people who moderators disagreed with. Grow up, George, and stop following me around, disagreeing with everything I say. We had a falling out. Big deal. Forget about it. Move on.
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 09:42:39 PM »

Obviously the subject was trolls, not people who moderators disagreed with. Grow up, George, and stop following me around, disagreeing with everything I say. We had a falling out. Big deal. Forget about it. Move on.
I think you have misunderstood my response.
What I am saying is that it is not so easy as you suggest for the moderation team to decide who deserves banning. Fatman2021 has only begun this posting modus operandi in the last week, but has been registered and has posted before 3 years ago. Trolling, unfortunately, is a M.O.  for which evidence needs to be gathered. Fatman2021 was issued with a warning for plagiarizing huge chunks of text with no citation. And in keeping with his M.O. of sticking to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law, you will note that he gave a citation at the end of his post for the text he cut and pasted this time. This is how trolls work. You set boundaries and they walk the edge of them and see how far they can push them. It takes time before you can decide to moderate them or ban them, or see if you can reason with them first.
By the way, when did you and I have a falling out? That's news to me.
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2007, 12:21:27 PM »

I happen to agree that Augustine's theology is very flawed. If he is commemorated as a saint in orthodoxy. (Big if) It definitely isn't because of his teachings.
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2007, 01:38:29 PM »

Demetrios,

I found this summary of the Church's attitude toward St. Augustine (provided for us by Asteriktos back when he was still one of us sheep) very informative as a mild refutation of your most recent post.

  • Many prominent and saintly Orthodox thinkers in the past few centuries considered Augustine a Saint.
  • Many of the Saints of the Church considered Augustine a Saint, and considered him an authority.
  • Augustine was mentioned at the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Ecumenical Councils--always favorably.

Augustine is a saint, and he is an authority, even if the Church has rejected some of his more extreme teachings as untenable to her mind.

I wonder if much of our rejection of St. Augustine is really not our rejection of RC/Protestant Christianity projected back onto the saint.  We see that Western Christianity (not to include the WRO churches) has built its heretical dogmatic system hugely on the foundation of Augustinian teaching, and we see how Western Christianity has developed some of Augustine's ideas to even greater logical extremes than the saint himself did.  But let us not blame St. Augustine for what the Western churches have done with his teachings.  In assessing the legacy St. Augustine bequeathed to the Church, let us limit our criticism to focus solely on what St. Augustine himself taught, examining his doctrines in the light of the whole body of the early Patristic witness, and ignoring what Western Christianity has done to isolate him from his contemporaries and further expand his teachings.
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2007, 03:37:59 PM »

It always bewilders me that some Orthodox call this saint "Blessed Augustine" when, to the best of my knowledge, no such beatification exists in the Orthodox Church as it does in the Catholic Church (where the term "Blessed" explicitly refers to a state of beatification sanctioned by that body).

As I see it, even if we Orthodox disagreed with things that he wrote, St. Augustine at the very least, deserves to be honored as a passion-bearer. Read about the end of his life and see if you agree:

From Wikipedia:
"Augustine died on August 28, 430, at the age of 75, during the siege of Hippo by the Vandals. He is said to have encouraged its citizens to resist the attacks, primarily on the grounds that the Vandals adhered to the Arian heresy. It is also said that he died just as the Vandals were tearing down the city walls of Hippo.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"D. Struggles against Arianism and Closing Years
In 426 the holy Bishop of Hippo, at the age of seventy-two, wishing to spare his episcopal city the turmoil of an election after his death, caused both clergy and people to acclaim the choice of the deacon Heraclius as his auxiliary and successor, and transferred to him the administration of externals. Augustine might then have enjoyed some rest had Africa not been agitated by the undeserved disgrace and the revolt of Count Boniface (427). The Goths, sent by the Empress Placidia to oppose Boniface, and the Vandals, whom the latter summoned to his assistance, were all Arians. Maximinus, an Arian bishop, entered Hippo with the imperial troops. The holy Doctor defended the Faith at a public conference (428) and in various writings. Being deeply grieved at the devastation of Africa, he laboured to effect a reconciliation between Count Boniface and the empress. Peace was indeed reestablished, but not with Genseric, the Vandal king. Boniface, vanquished, sought refuge in Hippo, whither many bishops had already fled for protection and this well fortified city was to suffer the horrors of an eighteen months' siege. Endeavouring to control his anguish, Augustine continued to refute Julian of Eclanum (whom the Encyclopedia says "the most learned among the leaders of the Pelagian movement and Bishop of Eclanum "); but early in the siege he (St. Augustine) was stricken with what he realized to be a fatal illness, and, after three months of admirable patience and fervent prayer, departed from this land of exile on 28 August, 430, in the seventy-sixth year of his age."
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 04:00:43 PM »

Forgive me for my not very learned bumping in, but I just wanted to share that what I personally found difficult in Augustine is his idea that the human free will has become completely dead, corpse-like after the Fall. (Or was is not his, but, rather, his later Reformer followers?) At some point, I was really struck by one line from the book of Revelation, the one where Christ says that He is standing right there and gently knocking on the door, and *with those who will open the door* He will share a supper. Not that I am a big fan of "proof texts," but to me this line does sound like a great support of the ida of "synergia" between God and man.
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2007, 04:05:32 PM »

Demetrios,

I found this summary of the Church's attitude toward St. Augustine (provided for us by Asteriktos back when he was still one of us sheep) very informative as a mild refutation of your most recent post.

Augustine is a saint, and he is an authority, even if the Church has rejected some of his more extreme teachings as untenable to her mind.

I wonder if much of our rejection of St. Augustine is really not our rejection of RC/Protestant Christianity projected back onto the saint.  We see that Western Christianity (not to include the WRO churches) has built its heretical dogmatic system hugely on the foundation of Augustinian teaching, and we see how Western Christianity has developed some of Augustine's ideas to even greater logical extremes than the saint himself did.  But let us not blame St. Augustine for what the Western churches have done with his teachings.  In assessing the legacy St. Augustine bequeathed to the Church, let us limit our criticism to focus solely on what St. Augustine himself taught, examining his doctrines in the light of the whole body of the early Patristic witness, and ignoring what Western Christianity has done to isolate him from his contemporaries and further expand his teachings.

This is a quote from the GOA website

Quote
For the last several decades, not just his theology but Augustine himself has been regarded as heretical by some theologians in the Orthodox Church. An attack on his person has been made by several theologians, excluding him from the list of saints. Meanwhile, others have called upon Orthodox theology to reevaluate and reinstitute Augustine to his rightful place as a great theologian­-philosopher of the universal Church.


As it stands now. He is not a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2007, 04:11:53 PM »

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I wanted to apologize for my last post on the thread.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 04:20:32 PM »

Quote
As it stands now. He is not a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church

Interestingly, the GOA official website hosts an article defending the sainthood of Augustine, and IMO makes a pretty solid case.
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 04:45:02 PM »

This is a quote from the GOA website

Quote
For the last several decades, not just his theology but Augustine himself has been regarded as heretical by some theologians in the Orthodox Church. An attack on his person has been made by several theologians, excluding him from the list of saints. Meanwhile, others have called upon Orthodox theology to reevaluate and reinstitute Augustine to his rightful place as a great theologian­-philosopher of the universal Church.

As it stands now. He is not a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church.


Read your quote again, Demetrios.
Quote
For the last several decades, not just his theology but Augustine himself has been regarded as heretical by some theologians in the Orthodox Church. An attack on his person has been made by several theologians, excluding him from the list of saints. Meanwhile, others have called upon Orthodox theology to reevaluate and reinstitute Augustine to his rightful place as a great theologian­-philosopher of the universal Church.
I changed nothing but the emphases.

What you quoted from the GOA web site expresses the personal opinion of some Orthodox theologians.  The quote by itself says NOTHING about the official position of the GOA.

Let's read something from the conclusion of the article you (DemetriosG) and Asteriktos both cite (Saint Augustine in the Greek Orthodox Tradition, by Rev. Dr. George C. Papademetriou):
Quote
In reviewing the Greek Orthodox literature we see that the Greek Orthodox theologians are very critical of Augustine and his errors. Nowhere, however, did we find evidence in the patristic writings for the claim that his name should be eliminated from the list of the saints.
To the contrary, Demetrios, I have just shown from the exact same article you quoted (out of context) that Augustine IS a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 05:26:51 PM »



"O blessed Augustine, you have been proved to be a bright vessel of the divine Spirit and revealer of the city of God; you have also righteously served the Saviour as a wise hierarch who has received God. O righteous father, pray to Christ God that he may grant to us great mercy."

He is call blessed augustine in the dismissal chant.  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 05:43:48 PM »

Yes, and he therefore IS a saint in our church.

From the GOAA website online saints search:

Augustine the Blessed, Bishop of Hippo: June 15

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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 05:45:16 PM »


"O blessed Augustine, you have been proved to be a bright vessel of the divine Spirit and revealer of the city of God; you have also righteously served the Saviour as a wise hierarch who has received God. O righteous father, pray to Christ God that he may grant to us great mercy."

He is call blessed augustine in the dismissal chant.  Wink

You're really stretching things mightily to continue to use the same article that lauds Augustine as a saint to continue your argument that he ain't.  "Blessed", "Saint", what difference is there in Orthodox usage?  NONE!  For instance, this Troparion to St. Herman of Alaska, one of the most revered saints in North America:

Quote
Troparion - Tone 4

O blessed Father Herman of Alaska,
North star of Christ's holy Church,
The light of your holy life and great deeds
Guides those who follow the Orthodox way.
Together we lift high the Holy Cross
You planted firmly in America.
Let all behold and glorify Jesus Christ,
Singing his holy Resurrection.
Does the fact that we call St. Herman "Blessed Father Herman" mean that we don't venerate Father Herman as a saint?  Besides, do Orthodox hymn writers ever write for public usage hymns to glorify those who are NOT canonized saints?

Demetrios, you're going to have to do much better than you've done so far to prove that we shouldn't call Augustine a saint.
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2007, 12:11:31 AM »

You're really stretching things mightily to continue to use the same article that lauds Augustine as a saint to continue your argument that he ain't.  "Blessed", "Saint", what difference is there in Orthodox usage?  NONE!  For instance, this Troparion to St. Herman of Alaska, one of the most revered saints in North America:
Does the fact that we call St. Herman "Blessed Father Herman" mean that we don't venerate Father Herman as a saint?  Besides, do Orthodox hymn writers ever write for public usage hymns to glorify those who are NOT canonized saints?

Demetrios, you're going to have to do much better than you've done so far to prove that we shouldn't call Augustine a saint.

Lets first clarify what it means to be a saint in the Orthodox Church. Any member of the Church can be called a saint. Augustine is a member. That doesn't mean he or any member, can be held in as high regard of sainthood such as say, St. Basil for instance. Augustine's theology clearly isn't Orthodox. His Orthodoxy has come into question because of his theology. The only reason the church hasn't officially declared him a heretic is because the church believes that his writing may have bin tampered with by the west. Witch may be true. I hope it is. I would say that makes him borderline depending on what the truth is. If it turns out that his writings are actually his own, than he will loose whatever status he has left.
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2007, 12:57:22 AM »

Here is an article that I have drafted for my parish newsletter that actually started development here on OC.net based upon replies to a similar question

The Orthopraxis of  Saints     
In the Orthodox Church, there is a sacred Tradition of describing the reason that a person was glorified as “Holy” (Greek agios) or as we would say in English “saint”..  The formal title of each Saint explains why there life was significant enough for the Church to single them out as an example of Christian piety and life out of the millions of Orthodox Christians who have led Godly and saintly lives.  Here is a sampling of just a few of the more prominent titles used in the Church.       

1)Martyr – a saint who is killed or murdered for the faith. There are those who are just called martyrs and then there are those like  St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki referred to as "St Demetrius the Megalomartyr" (Great Martyr) by the Greeks, St. Catherine the Great Martyr, St George the Great Martyr. Of course there are special martyrs who die as virgins called the Virgin-martyrs, like "Virgin-martyrs Thekla and Susanna Beheaded at Salerno"
2) Confessor-a saint who continues to profess the faith in the face of much persecution (they can die or not die in the process) or political mechanizations inside or outside of the church. St Tikhon the Confessor, St. Edmund the Confessor, and St. Maxiumus the Confessor are just three of the many saints who hold this title.
3) Enlightner - one who is a missionary who "enlightens" the population about Christianity (i.e. corrects false belief like that of the Arians or stands against paganism) this may also be used in connection with "Equal to the Apostles".  Equal to the Apostles St Nina, Enlightner of Georgia, Equal to the Apostles St. Patrick (Padraig) Enlightner of Ireland, etc.
4) Equal to the Apostles - one who missionizes or bears witness to the Gospel impacting vast numbers of people who convert or become Christian as a result of their witness, as first occurred with the mission of the Apostles, remember included among the Apostles are also the "seventy apostles" and Paul, Barnabas, etc not just the faithful 11 Apostles of Jesus initial ministry. St Mary Magdalene equal to the Apostles and Sts Constantine and Helen Equal to the Apostles.
5) Trophy Bearer - a martyr for the faith like St George the Trophy Bearer who after numerous miraculous  escapes from attempts to martyr him that brought many to the faith "He gave thanks to God for His benefits, and, begging His help for all those who would trustingly invoke his intercession throughout the centuries, bent his neck under the sword and went to carry off the trophies of eternal glory."
6) Passion-bearers - Saints are called "passion bearers" because they submitted to injustices to the point of death. When they were attacked, they refused to fight back. Rather than contribute to the violence, they refused to force their will upon the other. Often  people who held great political power but refused to use it to save themselves are called this.  Numbered among these Saints are the Princes Boris and Gleb of Russia, as well as, Tsar Nicholas Romanov II , his wife, and children.
7. Blessed - saints who are holy and have by their works blessed the Church and her children stregnthening them in times of trouble or tribulation. examples of this would be Blessed Augustine of Hippo and Blessed Herman of Alaska.
8. Wonderworker - Saints  who are called "wonderworker" worked wonders or performed miracles in their life or after their death. Such Saints include  St Nicholas the Wonderworker of Myra, St Menas the Wonderworker, St John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco, St Gregory the Wonderworker, etc.

Specific descriptive titles explain why a saint is glorified.  In modern times, one such is Holy Hierarch Raphael Hawaweeny of Brooklyn, Good Shepherd of the Lost Sheep in America.  Because of his work in finding and ministering to the disorganized and lost Arab Orthodox Christians scattered throughout the United States and Canada, St Raphael was glorified by the OCA jointly with the Antiochian Archdiocese as an American Saint. It should be noted that there are some Saints who bear multiple titles like Great Martyr Dimitrios, the Myrrh-flowing and Wonderworking Saint, St George the Great Martyr and Trophy Bearer which are attempts to define their actions by their title. Others will have the words Hiero--- attached to indicated monastic clergy, the term monk or nun shows lay monastics, etc. This is just a small sampling of the titles given to the saints of the Church in our attempts to suitably describe them in short hand for their witness and obedience to God's calling.

 May All the Saints (Titled or Unknown) Pray for us!
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2007, 01:29:26 AM »

G,

Quote
That doesn't mean he or any member, can be held in as high regard of sainthood such as say, St. Basil for instance.

Ahh yes, St. Basil the great! That guy that Gregory the Theologian had to embarrassingly defend at social gatherings, because Basil was not positive that the Holy Spirit was co-equal with the Father and Son. (Perhaps this is the reason that Gregory developed the concept of the Trinity slowly being revealed to Israel/Christianity, even into the Church age, and why Gregory used a phrase like "semi-Orthodox" to describe those who were unsure of the deity of the Holy Spirit; for this stuff, see Gregory's 32nd Oration). This was the same Basil who ignored Church canons (e.g., Canon 15) when it suited his purpose. The same Basil who, according to Gregory himself, consecrated Gregory the Theologian almost against his will (though he was a bit more open in his poetry than he was in his Orations; I suspect that it was much more against his will than he ever let on; see Gregory's 1st Oration for part of this, though I forget in which poems he talks about this, and have no books to look it up). Anyway, the point is, if you're gonna be critical you can find things to pick at in just about everyone; even Basil, John Chrysostom, Ireneaus, Justin Martyr, etc. publically promulgated theological errors.

Quote
Augustine's theology clearly isn't Orthodox.

Clearly. Ah, wait... a few dozen theologians through 1,500 years of history, expressing their opinion, contradicting the overwhelming majority opinion, equates to something being clear?

Quote
His Orthodoxy has come into question because of his theology. The only reason the church hasn't officially declared him a heretic is because the church believes that his writing may have bin tampered with by the west. Witch may be true. I hope it is. I would say that makes him borderline depending on what the truth is. If it turns out that his writings are actually his own, than he will loose whatever status he has left.

So you'll sing his praises in your divine services, and talk about him in your collections of saints, just for kicks?
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2007, 02:12:10 AM »


Clearly. Ah, wait... a few dozen theologians through 1,500 years of history, expressing their opinion, contradicting the overwhelming majority opinion, equates to something being clear?



Crystal clear. Makes perfect sense.
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2007, 02:45:20 AM »

Crystal clear. Makes perfect sense.
Methinks the only way you can make Orthodox theology crystal clear is to pare off all those threads of our theological traditions that don't agree with your opinions.  What you end up doing, then, is making yourself the arbiter of what is Orthodox and what is not.
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2007, 03:04:59 AM »

I have to say, as much as I dislike this website, even the highly traditionalist Orthodoxinfo.com has infinitely more respect to St. Augustine that the so-called Orthodox we have here.

God bless.
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2007, 03:41:42 AM »

Methinks the only way you can make Orthodox theology crystal clear is to pare off all those threads of our theological traditions that don't agree with your opinions.  What you end up doing, then, is making yourself the arbiter of what is Orthodox and what is not.

I presume your a resent convert. Orthodoxy has bin in my family for generations. We didn't read about it. We grew up in it and we lived it.
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2007, 04:05:27 AM »

Methinks the only way you can make Orthodox theology crystal clear is to pare off all those threads of our theological traditions that don't agree with your opinions.  What you end up doing, then, is making yourself the arbiter of what is Orthodox and what is not.

I presume your a resent convert. Orthodoxy has bin in my family for generations. We didn't read about it. We grew up in it and we lived it.

Yet that doesn't address the substance of the post you quoted.  I don't think my being a "recent" convert and you being born and raised in an established Orthodox culture has anything to do with your treatment of St. Augustine.  Besides that, I don't want to even start down that road toward an argument of "convert" vs. "cradle".  Many of our greatest saints were "converts" (e.g., Fr. Seraphim Rose, even though he's not yet glorified officially), yet not a few of our most despised heresiarchs were "cradle" Orthodox, and clergy at that (e.g., Arius and Nestorius).  Being "cradle" Orthodox like you is no guarantee of the Orthodoxy of your opinions.

Besides, I find the manner of your insinuation that I'm a recent convert and what that means quite insulting to all converts.
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2007, 04:30:49 AM »

I presume your a resent convert. Orthodoxy has bin in my family for generations. We didn't read about it. We grew up in it and we lived it.

Back at you, friend. Same for my family. And you are wrong.
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2007, 07:11:51 AM »

Back at you, friend. Same for my family. And you are wrong.
That makes two of us.
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2007, 10:50:20 AM »

Back at you, friend. Same for my family. And you are wrong.
Could you clarify what I'm wrong about?
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2007, 03:38:49 PM »

Could you clarify what I'm wrong about?
  • That Augustine should not be glorified as a saint
  • That the GOA has removed St. Augustine's name from the list of saints
  • That being cradle Orthodox automatically makes you an authority in Orthodox dogmatics
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2007, 05:46:48 PM »

  • That Augustine should not be glorified as a saint
  • That the GOA has removed St. Augustine's name from the list of saints
  • That being cradle Orthodox automatically makes you an authority in Orthodox dogmatics
   Could you mind your own business for once. The question wasn't adressed to you. Every time I post something your right there tring to be some kind of authority figure. And secondlly your puting words in my mouth. I never said that Augustine should be removed from anywhere.I just posted what was on the website. It clearly states that some Orthodox theologens have removed him from the list of saints. Take it up with them if your offened. If there is any removal, it is Augustine removing himself by his teachings.
  Again, all church members are saints. It is very possible that his sainthood has bin downgraded so his theology will not take over as it did in the west.
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2007, 06:26:33 PM »

Quote
It is very possible that his sainthood has bin downgraded so his theology will not take over as it did in the west.

I have never heard of downgrading a saint. What do we then hold them to be, HolyLite? SaintLite?
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« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2007, 06:59:58 PM »

I have never heard of downgrading a saint. What do we then hold them to be, HolyLite? SaintLite?

It gets very tied some when we always try to split hairs. It's pretty obvious that the Church doesn't want his theology to take over. Otherwise we would be call Roman Catholics. So they are putting a blanket on him. So to speak. Whether he will be removed from a list isn't my call. I will let the hierarchies of the church make that decision.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2007, 07:25:02 PM »

IF any are even contemplating that. Are any bishops doing so?

In fact even doing that seems unOrthodox to start with, now that I think about it. We don't 'make' saints.
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« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2007, 07:59:54 PM »

Regarding a level of sainthood.  I am sure you are aware the we have the Three Holy Hierarchs of the Eastern Church refers to Basil the Great (known as Basil of Caesarea), Gregory the Theologian (known as Gregory of Nazianzus) and John Chrysostom.  The church regards these saints as a step above the rest. So yes there is a level of saint hood. The word Hierarch mean a step above. If there is an above there very well is a below.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2007, 08:17:29 PM »

Just a note of clarification (since I can't edit the post). I mentioned Canon 15 in one post, but failed to mention that it was from the First Ecumenical Council. I guess that point is sort of important. Grin
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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2007, 08:23:50 PM »

Regarding a level of sainthood.  I am sure you are aware the we have the Three Holy Hierarchs of the Eastern Church refers to Basil the Great (known as Basil of Caesarea), Gregory the Theologian (known as Gregory of Nazianzus) and John Chrysostom.  The church regards these saints as a step above the rest. So yes there is a level of saint hood. The word Hierarch mean a step above. If there is an above there very well is a below.

Not necessarily. But you didn't answer my question.
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« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2007, 09:05:09 PM »

Not necessarily. But you didn't answer my question.
I can't answer your question. Take it up with your bishop.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2007, 09:32:26 PM »

   Could you mind your own business for once. The question wasn't adressed to you.
Not to continue to stoke the flames, since you've made it apparent that you don't like me, but I would like to state with all due respect a couple of points about the above.
  • You posted your question to Αριστοκλής on a public discussion board, which opens your question to whoever will answer.  If you truly wanted to address the question solely to Αριστοκλής without opening it to someone else, a PM would have been a better way to go.
  • I didn't just suddenly step into your discussion with Αριστοκλής and Ozgeorge; if anything, they stepped into your discussion with me.  I was still a very active part of the discussion when I made the post you deemed intrusive.
Again, I don't want to allow our side chatter to derail this very good discussion, so if you want to continue airing out your grievances with me as a poster, I encourage you to do so in a PM.  (If you want to complain about my moderation style, Cleveland is the person to speak to.)

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« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2007, 09:33:16 PM »

   Could you mind your own business for once.

What are we supposed to be, spectators allowing your eminent wisdom to wash over us without comment or critique? Who exactly is the audience for your pontifications, then, save yourself?
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