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Author Topic: Pope says Orthodox Church is Defective, Others Don't Even Rate  (Read 22048 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2007, 07:52:44 AM »

Is it a new doctrine or has the Vicar of Christ, Benedict of Rome, just stated what has been believed in the Latin churches for more than 16 centuries ? The outrage expressed by people concerning the Vicar of Christ view on Orthodoxy is unfounded. If the Vicar of Christ woke up in the morning and decided to reconfirm the Latin faith that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, would his statement be received in the same manner ?

The timing may be bad, specially for the Non-Chalcedonian church leaders and hierarchs who have increased their ecumenical efforts significantly just to be hit with this statement by the Vicar of Christ. It made them look terrible in front of the people who follow up with this ecumenical business, and the few who are not impressed by these ecumenical efforts found in the Vicar's statement some room to breath.

May the Supreme Pontiff live forever and may his golden tongue never cease to illuminate us with such statements. Bahebak ya kebeer.

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« Reply #136 on: August 01, 2007, 03:02:55 PM »

I really think that there is no way to unity unless we either throw out the Papacy (won't happen) or the Eastern Orthodox will have to accept the Papacy (won't happen). So guess what, I don't think it will happen on this side of heaven.
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« Reply #137 on: August 01, 2007, 05:58:24 PM »

Each side, whether Latin Chalcedonians or Eastern Chalcedonian, or Non-Chalcedonian, believes the following, as expressed by the majority of laymen and hierarchs:

+ Their churches are within the scope of salvation
+ The other churches are apostolic churches
+ The other churches are not outside the scope of salvation (The Vicar's comments do not exclude Orthodox from salvation, the Vicar just say that they are a so-so church not having the fullness of faith, as if the faith is a cheese cake)

So, what is the need for the unity ? If salvation is not affected by this status of schism now, why should we bother about unity ?

Are We saved ? Of course (according to the ecumenist). .
Is unity with the Latin or Eastern Chalcedonian necessary for MY salvation ? No (according to the ecumenist).
Are they saved, eventhough they are in schism with US ? Yes (according to the ecumenist).

So why do we need a unity ?
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« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2007, 11:21:22 PM »

I really think that there is no way to unity unless we either throw out the Papacy (won't happen) or the Eastern Orthodox will have to accept the Papacy (won't happen). So guess what, I don't think it will happen on this side of heaven.
Actually, we're not asking you to throw out the Papacy, for the Papacy did serve a valuable role within the Church at one time.  All we're asking is that you throw out how the Papacy has grown to define itself over the past 1000+ years.
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« Reply #139 on: August 01, 2007, 11:32:54 PM »

We all have defects and all are sinners...simple & no further comment by me is required.

Time for that nightcap... Wink

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« Reply #140 on: August 02, 2007, 10:11:31 AM »

Actually, we're not asking you to throw out the Papacy, for the Papacy did serve a valuable role within the Church at one time.  All we're asking is that you throw out how the Papacy has grown to define itself over the past 1000+ years.

We would do that if we did not believe that some of the greatest exponents of the papal primacy were first-millennium popes like St. Gregory the Great and St. Leo the Great. Hence the snag.
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« Reply #141 on: August 02, 2007, 11:11:20 AM »

We would do that if we did not believe that some of the greatest exponents of the papal primacy were first-millennium popes like St. Gregory the Great and St. Leo the Great. Hence the snag.

Of course, we would just say that you misunderstand what Sts. Gregory and Leo believed about the office of the Bishop of Rome. Wink
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« Reply #142 on: August 02, 2007, 03:02:07 PM »

Of course, we would just say that you misunderstand what Sts. Gregory and Leo believed about the office of the Bishop of Rome. Wink

Indeed, and we'd go back and forth like this for century on century. How fun!  Wink
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« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2007, 01:44:26 PM »

Actually, we're not asking you to throw out the Papacy, for the Papacy did serve a valuable role within the Church at one time.  All we're asking is that you throw out how the Papacy has grown to define itself over the past 1000+ years.

Thank you. I was going to write something like that - 'throw out the papacy' is not AFAIK the Orthodox position! How could it be when Pope saints are listed in the Orthodox calendar as Popes?!

What you wrote AFAIK is the Orthodox position.
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« Reply #144 on: September 10, 2008, 10:20:22 AM »

In 2001, the Pontifical Biblical Commission released a book entitled, "The Jewish People and their sacred scriptures in the Christian Bible."
This book was written by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI).

In this book that represents the Vaticans (the Papacy) views about Jews and Judaism, you will discover that it recognizes Judaism as an equally valid path to salvation and rejects the idea that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.

While the Roman Catholic Church is pretending to seek unity with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, it is obvious that comments like those made in the article reveal the true nature of the Vatican and the Pope.

Who cares what the Roman Catholics tell themselves? Its self-deception and they serve the purpose of rabbinical Judaism and of course the antichrist.

Pope Benedict XVI's book which I mentioned above, is but one example of the Vatican's real views which are against TRUE CHRISTIANITY (ORTHODOXY).

To see what I'm talking about, look up the book I mentioned and refer to
SECTION II A 5
SECTION II A 7

Also look up Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's other book "God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald." Ignatius Press 2002. p..209

Where he says,

“It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point unequivocally to Christ. And if Jews cannot see the promise as being fulfilled in him, this is not just ill will on their part, but genuinely because of the obscurity of the texts […] There are perfectly good reasons, then, for denying that the Old Testament refers to Christ….”


The Roman Catholic Church is very different from Orthodoxy. Very different.
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« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2008, 10:51:09 AM »

In 2001, the Pontifical Biblical Commission released a book entitled, "The Jewish People and their sacred scriptures in the Christian Bible."
This book was written by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI).

In this book that represents the Vaticans (the Papacy) views about Jews and Judaism, you will discover that it recognizes Judaism as an equally valid path to salvation and rejects the idea that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.

While the Roman Catholic Church is pretending to seek unity with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, it is obvious that comments like those made in the article reveal the true nature of the Vatican and the Pope.

Who cares what the Roman Catholics tell themselves? Its self-deception and they serve the purpose of rabbinical Judaism and of course the antichrist.

Pope Benedict XVI's book which I mentioned above, is but one example of the Vatican's real views which are against TRUE CHRISTIANITY (ORTHODOXY).

To see what I'm talking about, look up the book I mentioned and refer to
SECTION II A 5
SECTION II A 7

Also look up Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's other book "God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald." Ignatius Press 2002. p..209

Where he says,

“It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point unequivocally to Christ. And if Jews cannot see the promise as being fulfilled in him, this is not just ill will on their part, but genuinely because of the obscurity of the texts […] There are perfectly good reasons, then, for denying that the Old Testament refers to Christ….”


The Roman Catholic Church is very different from Orthodoxy. Very different.

Right.  Roll Eyes

So Orthodoxy is all about presuming evil motives of the Jewish people? Is Christ mentioned explicitly at all in the Old Testament? If it was so CLEAR and FRANK, why the different schools of thought in Judaism at the time of Christ?

In a few minutes I will post that selection of Cardinal Ratzinger's in context. Methinks you ripped that quote off a sedevacantist or Jack Chick-type site.
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« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2008, 11:18:12 AM »

In the selection, Cardinal Ratzinger responds (orally---the book is a transcribed interview) to the following question. The fragments quoted by Zarabas above are bolded.


The patriarch Jacob had more or less described the time when this Redeemer would come, as in fact it was at the birth of Christ. Many had fallen away from the faith; Pharisees lived a life full of pride and lovelessness, as it says; the rest felt like a flock of sheep without a shepherd. The longing for the Master had grown equally great, both among Jews and among Gentiles. “Drop down the righteous, O heavens, from above!” pleads the prophet Isaiah, “and you, clouds, rain him down!” Yet nonetheless: Might it not be that these prophecies were fabricated in response to Jesus, and in fact only in retrospect?

The first sentence of your question refers to the so-called benediction of Jacob (Gen 49), which consists of a collection of promises, often quite mysterious, for the twelve sons of Jacob. In the blessing of Judah it says, “The rule shall not depart from Judah, nor the scepter from his feet, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, to whom the obedience of all peoples is due” (49:10). That was then interpreted as a promise concerning the kingdom of David (David belonged to the tribe of Judah), and after this kingdom’s disappearance---in the time of Jesus, that is---as the promise of a new son of David, the Messiah, who would also command the obedience of all the peoples of the world, the non-Jews. It is obvious that Christians would see this promise as being fulfilled in Jesus the Son of David. But this text (scholars still disagree about its period of origin) does not go so far as to describe the time of Jesus, and its words point mysteriously to the future, and its meaning only seems clear in the light of Christ.

Now let’s take the prophet Isaiah. The original text in fact reads “Drop down righteousness, O heavens.” Only after righteousness had come in the guise of a particular person did the Christians read this text with a personalized reference. Thus in this relationship of agreement between Old and New Testaments we can see how the word of Scripture offers a progressive way. The words go to meet him; they seek him out where he is still in obscurity.

It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point quite unequivocally to Christ. And if Jews cannot see the promises as being fulfilled in him, this is not just ill will on their part, but genuinely because of the obscurity of the texts and the tension in the relationship between these texts and the figure of Jesus. Jesus brings a new meaning to these texts---yet it is he who first gives them their proper coherence and relevance and significance.

There are perfectly good reasons, then, for denying that the Old Testament refers to Christ and for saying, No, that is not what he said. And there are also good reasons for referring it to him---that is what the dispute between Jews and Christians is about. But this is not all. A great part of the purely historical and critical exegesis, likewise, does not read the Old Testament in this sense of pointing the way forward; it regards the Christian interpretation of it as being inconsistent with the original meaning, or at any rate as going far beyond it.

One would have to add this: The Old Testament is not an oracle; it is a path. We still have the freedom to reject it. I would say that the very fact that this freedom is open to us is a guarantee that the texts will stand on their own. It is quite clear that historically the Old Testament precedes Christ; the faith and the Scriptures of the Jews make that as clear as day. The Church Fathers saw it as the historical mission of the Jews that, by saying Yes to the Old Testament and No to Jesus, they give a universal guarantee of the age and authenticity of their sacred books. This, so the Fathers thought, was why they remained Jews and did not become Christians. The texts stand on their own, but they gain a new significance and unity of view when we read them with Christ.


God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald. Ignatius Press, 2002, pp. 207-210.
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« Reply #147 on: September 11, 2008, 08:54:50 AM »

Greetings in Christ to you lubetri

For some strange reason you opted to inciminate the Orthodox with your "question"

"So Orthodoxy is all about presuming evil motives of the Jewish people?"

No, the Orthodox Church does not presume the Jews are evil. That was your assumption and ignorance since even the Roman Catholic Church claims that the teachings of the Holy Fathers are valid for our spiritual benefit, and they have also taught us that from the Tribe of Dan the Antichrist will emerge from amongst the Jews (but not the "Jews").

Your responses have demonstrated a straying away from the OLD TESTAMENT that the early Church used (the New Testament was not complete or official in that period) which was used to learn about the Messiah Jesus Christ.

Your respones also demonstrate the careless acceptance of what the Vatican NOW teaches.

I couldn't help but notice how you failed to answer why Pope Benedict XVI promotes the belief that salvation is not only through Christ.

So while you sit there and make implicit suggestions against the Orthodox Church as "anti-Semitic" to avoid the reality of what the Vatican now teaches, you only help demonstrate why the ORTHODOX CHURCH IS NOT "DEFECTIVE" as stated by your heretical Papacy that opts to teach alternatives to salvation found in rabbinical Judaism.

You dont have to quote lengthy passages and explanations from the Vatican since I've looked at many Roman Catholic books describing what you believe. The point I made was actually assisted by your response which asserts that the OLD TESTAMENT has been devalued by the Vatican who has distanced its relationship to Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

I think you should re-examine the "theology" of the Vatican and then compare that to what the Holy Church Fathers taught in the first 1000 years of the Church's history.
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« Reply #148 on: September 11, 2008, 09:12:59 AM »

 Roll Eyes

Your accusations are false and remain unproven by you, but since you obviously have an axe to grind and wish only to bash Catholics over the head with false accusations, I will waste no more time with you.

I truly hope you spend more time in an actual parish practicing a positive Orthodox faith rather than consume yourself with a Church of which you are not even part.
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« Reply #149 on: September 11, 2008, 12:03:58 PM »

Greetings in Christ to you lubetri

For some strange reason you opted to inciminate the Orthodox with your "question"

"So Orthodoxy is all about presuming evil motives of the Jewish people?"

No, the Orthodox Church does not presume the Jews are evil. That was your assumption and ignorance since even the Roman Catholic Church claims that the teachings of the Holy Fathers are valid for our spiritual benefit, and they have also taught us that from the Tribe of Dan the Antichrist will emerge from amongst the Jews (but not the "Jews").

Your responses have demonstrated a straying away from the OLD TESTAMENT that the early Church used (the New Testament was not complete or official in that period) which was used to learn about the Messiah Jesus Christ.

Your respones also demonstrate the careless acceptance of what the Vatican NOW teaches.

I couldn't help but notice how you failed to answer why Pope Benedict XVI promotes the belief that salvation is not only through Christ.

So while you sit there and make implicit suggestions against the Orthodox Church as "anti-Semitic" to avoid the reality of what the Vatican now teaches, you only help demonstrate why the ORTHODOX CHURCH IS NOT "DEFECTIVE" as stated by your heretical Papacy that opts to teach alternatives to salvation found in rabbinical Judaism.

You dont have to quote lengthy passages and explanations from the Vatican since I've looked at many Roman Catholic books describing what you believe. The point I made was actually assisted by your response which asserts that the OLD TESTAMENT has been devalued by the Vatican who has distanced its relationship to Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

I think you should re-examine the "theology" of the Vatican and then compare that to what the Holy Church Fathers taught in the first 1000 years of the Church's history.

You made an assertion based on an apparently selective reading of one of then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's books.  lubeltri refuted your argument by quoting a much larger excerpt of the passage you quoted in order to place your quote in context.  So far I have seen you do nothing to prove your point except to accuse lubeltri of being a careless slave to post-Vatican-II Roman teaching and to continue to preach without proof the thesis that lubeltri so cogently refuted.  Your rant against lubeltri falls into the logical fallacy of the ad hominem, and your continued argument without proof presents an inflated view of your own authority.

Regarding these RC books you claim to have read, can you quote them for us?  Maybe then we'll see that you really know what you're talking about.
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« Reply #150 on: September 11, 2008, 12:25:52 PM »

Roll Eyes

Your accusations are false and remain unproven by you, but since you obviously have an axe to grind and wish only to bash Catholics over the head with false accusations, I will waste no more time with you.

I truly hope you spend more time in an actual parish practicing a positive Orthodox faith rather than consume yourself with a Church of which you are not even part.

Grace and Peace,

It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point quite unequivocally to Christ. And if Jews cannot see the promises as being fulfilled in him, this is not just ill will on their part, but genuinely because of the obscurity of the texts and the tension in the relationship between these texts and the figure of Jesus. Jesus brings a new meaning to these texts---yet it is he who first gives them their proper coherence and relevance and significance. ~ Pope Benedict XVI

Our Lord Jesus Christ taught the spiritual exegesis to the Apostles on the way to Emmaus. Pope Benedict XVI, with all due respect and honor to him and his position, seems to expect the texts, in and of themselves, to offer this spiritual exegesis so necessary that Our Lord and Saviour made sure to pass it to His Apostles. The grave concern Zarabas might be expressing, with difficulty, is that Pope Benedict XVI may appear to be over looking the necessity of this and making excuses for the text's subtly and the Jews rejection of the graces necessary to see and hear the truth.

This kind of scholastic excuse seems to be one not becoming of a Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the Living God and so confuses the Orthodox who still draw their faith from the God-Bearing Fathers and not in scholastic speculations as it appears Pope Benedict XVI is doing in his argument.

To obscure the truth is a grave injustice to unbelievers as it arms them all the more in their rejection. As much as Pope Benedict XVI might have desired to do so in charity for those Jews who find the truth of Jesus Christ a stumbling-block I see this as ultimately a very unwise act and some might argue 'evil' as the subject (God's Truth) is being obscured even if such is motivated out of charity the means (obscuring the truth) is still not a 'good'.

I am not attempting to pass judgment your Patriarch but only to offer, as kindly as I am able, a defense for the reaction of some on this forum toward the Pope actions. If I offend, please accept my deeply felt apology. I know being Catholic is a great challenge and being loyal to Rome is also a great challenge but in doing either does not mean we must be ignorant nor blind the the Faith believed "everywhere, always, and by all".

Peace and God Bless.
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« Reply #151 on: September 11, 2008, 01:13:50 PM »

I think you misinterpret Cardinal Ratzinger's exegesis. He was speculating on one defense against the charge that parts of the Old Testament may have been fabricated by followers of Jesus to "point" to him. He points out that they are clearly ancient partly because they do not so obviously and literally and exclusively point to Jesus of Nazareth. They CAN be read in a different way. How else to explain the condemnation of the clear Messiah Jesus of Nazareth and the Sanhedrin's handing him over for crucifixion? How else to explain many  Jews' failure to see it, past and present? Are they all just dishonest and of ill will? Hardly.

If the Old Testament scriptures were so overtly pointing to Jesus of Nazareth, with no other reasonable interpretation, they would be seen as Christian propaganda. Read in the light of faith in Jesus, yes, they are clear. But they are not starting-point proof-texts for Jesus.

Charges of "scholasticism" do not apply here.

BTW, this exegesis was by a theologian named Joseph Ratzinger, not the Holy Father.

And Zaraba's stance has little justification---he ripped the quotes out of context to "prove" that the Catholic Church considers the Jews exempt from the call to Christ. His trolling merits no more of my time than it has already wasted.
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« Reply #152 on: September 11, 2008, 01:19:46 PM »

Ignatius and Zaraba, here is something a bit more official, if you have any doubts:

22.  With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31). This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”. If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its publication.


Dominus Iesus
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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« Reply #153 on: September 11, 2008, 02:21:06 PM »

Peter...

You said

"You made an assertion based on an apparently selective reading of one of then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's books.  lubeltri refuted your argument by quoting a much larger excerpt of the passage you quoted in order to place your quote in context.  So far I have seen you do nothing to prove your point except to accuse lubeltri of being a careless slave to post-Vatican-II Roman teaching and to continue to preach without proof the thesis that lubeltri so cogently refuted.  Your rant against lubeltri falls into the logical fallacy of the ad hominem, and your continued argument without proof presents an inflated view of your own authority.

Regarding these RC books you claim to have read, can you quote them for us?  Maybe then we'll see that you really know what you're talking about."

Obviously I did read those texts and obviously I'm not going to quote the entire books just to get to the point of the matter.

I intentionally used ---> [...] brackets to show that I made a transition in the selections I wanted to put forward. In writing, this is what is done to shorten relevant passages that are being quoted. There was nothing wrong on my part for doing that. I even quoted from which page and section the information could be compared.

I also made sure to tell people that they should read these books and see for themselves.

I did not misrepresent the data, but only provided those relevant passages for my considerations put forward to the issue of what is "Defective" and it is not the Orthodox Church.

As for Lubeltri, he made sure to imply "anti-Semitism" to the Orthodox Church just because I mentioned how the Vatican under Cardinal (and now Pope) Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) promotes that salvation is not through Christ alone.

So Peter, what is your point? That I misrepresente and twisted what the Vatican says? Read carefully and you will see that this is not a case of semantics or misreadings.

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« Reply #154 on: September 11, 2008, 02:23:33 PM »

I think you misinterpret Cardinal Ratzinger's exegesis. He was speculating on one defense against the charge that parts of the Old Testament may have been fabricated by followers of Jesus to "point" to him. He points out that they are clearly ancient partly because they do not so obviously and literally and exclusively point to Jesus of Nazareth. They CAN be read in a different way. How else to explain the condemnation of the clear Messiah Jesus of Nazareth and the Sanhedrin's handing him over for crucifixion? How else to explain many  Jews' failure to see it, past and present? Are they all just dishonest and of ill will? Hardly.

Grace and Peace,

This seems to me to be a very fair defense of the Pontiff's words and I no reason to refute them but out of context you might agree they can be interpreted as concerning to Orthodox Christians drawing deeply from the font of the God-Bearing Father's who did not dwell in the mind and speculate.

Quote
If the Old Testament scriptures were so overtly pointing to Jesus of Nazareth, with no other reasonable interpretation, they would be seen as Christian propaganda. Read in the light of faith in Jesus, yes, they are clear. But they are not starting-point proof-texts for Jesus.

It should be clear this is the case from the efforts of St. Paul in the Acts of the Apostles that it was necessary to draw from a particular spiritual exegesis. Why doesn't the Pontiff point this out?

Quote
Charges of "scholasticism" do not apply here.

I did not use 'scholastic' in a primarily negative context I only wanted to point out that these kind of speculation is that of a scholar and not a Theologian (Orthodox Meaning of the term). When the Sacred Testimony is illuminated with the spiritual light of the Theologians it no longer exists as merely a historical document to be speculated about through intellectual argumentation. Forensic Biblical Dissection can not reveal the Spiritual Truth hidden within as such a method looks only at it as a historical document written in time. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, know the spiritual truths within. This is most profoundly illuminated in the Divine Liturgy and the prayers of the Church. The West has moved away from these truths in the activity of endless speculations I fear.

There is no need to be upset or overly irritated. If you are convicted that you are right, have patience with us and forgive. Correct with grace and kindness. Be charitable in the way only one who is rich in the Spirit can be and in time you will reap a good harvest.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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« Reply #155 on: September 11, 2008, 02:25:12 PM »

Roll Eyes

Your accusations are false and remain unproven by you, but since you obviously have an axe to grind and wish only to bash Catholics over the head with false accusations, I will waste no more time with you.

I truly hope you spend more time in an actual parish practicing a positive Orthodox faith rather than consume yourself with a Church of which you are not even part.


Actually, I wasnt "Catholic bashing" since what is Catholic is Orthodox. I was however criticizing the Vatican's world view and beliefs presented in those text I quoted from.

However, you did respond to me with the implicit statement that Orthodoxy is "anti-Semitic". You really need to stop defending heresy and pretending it is done in love of Christ.

I stand absolutely correct that the Orthodox Church is not "Deffective" as stated by your ... Pope. However, the Vatican is extremely Deffective for the reasons I have presented plus much more.

Unnecessary ad hominem removed.  Your opinions are welcome, but keep your uncharitable language out of your posts.  If this happens again in my section or elsewhere on this board, your status will be changed to warned.

Thank you.

-- Friul
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 05:50:07 PM by Friul » Logged
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« Reply #156 on: September 11, 2008, 02:47:31 PM »

Quote
I think you misinterpret Cardinal Ratzinger's exegesis. He was speculating on one defense against the charge that parts of the Old Testament may have been fabricated by followers of Jesus to "point" to him. He points out that they are clearly ancient partly because they do not so obviously and literally and exclusively point to Jesus of Nazareth. They CAN be read in a different way. How else to explain the condemnation of the clear Messiah Jesus of Nazareth and the Sanhedrin's handing him over for crucifixion? How else to explain many  Jews' failure to see it, past and present? Are they all just dishonest and of ill will? Hardly.

If the Old Testament scriptures were so overtly pointing to Jesus of Nazareth, with no other reasonable interpretation, they would be seen as Christian propaganda. Read in the light of faith in Jesus, yes, they are clear. But they are not starting-point proof-texts for Jesus.
Dear brother, I don't think Zarabas is saying wrong things. On the contrary, the position of Benedict XVI and John Paul II contradicts explicitly what the Church Fathers stated for 1000 years. Am I accusing the Jews of the sin of voluntarily denying the *explicit* messianic interpretation of the Scriptures? No, I'm not. I'm accusing those Jews who, after the rise of Jesus from the dead, violently altered the text of the Scriptures: those men denied any value to the older editions (the aramaic and the Septuagint which were evidently quoted by the Apostles were not the Masoretic Text!)! I even have a Jewish friend, a wonderful girl, and I couldn't even think to say she's evil... the Bible she got is not the inspired Bible that we can trace in the Septuagint, where all the Messianic prophecies were explicit and could not be misunderstood.
Yeah, some Orthodox prayers condemn the Jews: in truth they condemn those who crucified our Lord and naver repented, and those Jews who altered the Holy Bible... Obviously I include those Jewish scholars who voluntarily deny all value to the Septuagint and claim the superiority of the Masoretic Text!
Are modern Jews guilty of this? No, their just in the ignorance of those who have been told since their birth terrible things about how the Jews are the only ones having the right Bible...

May God grent them light and bring them to His Beloved Son!
In Christ,    Alex




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« Reply #157 on: September 11, 2008, 03:30:04 PM »

Greetings in Christ to you Alexander.

I would like for you to point out which prayers are "anti-Semitic" and perhaps we can discuss what they really mean. You should know that charges of "anti-Semitism" have been applied to the Orthodox by the Anti Defamation League of Binai Brith in 2007 June. They are demanding revision in the Liturgy of Orthodoxy without taking the time to consider the massive revisions required of the Talmud and rabbinical teachings against Christianity and Christ. For this reason I ask you again to provide the examples that are claimed to be "anti-Semitic" for the sake of discussion.

Also I would like to remind EVERYONE that rabbinical Judaism is the religion that deviated from its biblical history since 90 A.D.

The Jews through Gamaliel II include the Birkat Ha Minim benediction that condemns all Christians.

If Orthodoxy makes reference to "Jews" it is not "Anti-Semitism" that is being expressed, but a recognition of events of the past and of course to come (e.g. the teachings of the Holy Church Fathers who wrote that Antichrist will be born from the tribe of Dan. Even this does not mean "JEWS" but from amongst them if we consider Jacob's prophecies about the twelve tribes, and other passages from Jeremiah etc.).

Outwardly, any mention of Jews in a negative way may appear "anti-Semitic" but in truth, rabbinical authorities are hell bent on disposing of the relevant truths about "Jews" and the Antichist (e.g. the Temple of Jerusalem which the Antichrist will sit in). Today the Temple Institute is continuing its efforts to establish a Third Temple. While this is interesting it is worth while speculation in terms of what the Holy Church Fathers wrote long ago about the Antichrist.

"Anti-Semitism" is frequently used against the Orthodox Church but it is false. The Orthodox Church is not "Anti-Semitic" but it does recognize that ANY denial of Jesus Christ is of Antichrist.

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« Reply #158 on: September 11, 2008, 03:41:37 PM »

Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust.

Quote
The 275 Jews of the island of Zakynthos, however, survived the Holocaust. When the island's mayor, Carrer, was presented with the German order to hand over a list of Jews, Bishop Chrysostomos returned to the Germans with a list of two names; his and the mayor's. The island's population hid every member of the Jewish community. When the island was almost levelled by the great earthquake of 1953, the first relief came from the state of Israel, with a message that read "The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us."
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 03:42:37 PM by Demetrios G. » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: September 11, 2008, 04:46:39 PM »

Obviously I did read those texts and obviously I'm not going to quote the entire books just to get to the point of the matter.

I intentionally used ---> [...] brackets to show that I made a transition in the selections I wanted to put forward. In writing, this is what is done to shorten relevant passages that are being quoted. There was nothing wrong on my part for doing that. I even quoted from which page and section the information could be compared.
Actually, there IS something wrong with this approach, which I think lubeltri made quite evident.  The [...] made it appear as if you were concealing something from us in order to make your point.  Lubeltri exposed this text you hid from us and showed that the larger passage from which you drew your excerpt said something quite different, and in many ways opposite, from what you argued.

Quote
I also made sure to tell people that they should read these books and see for themselves.

I did not misrepresent the data, but only provided those relevant passages for my considerations put forward to the issue of what is "Defective" and it is not the Orthodox Church.
As I showed above, you actually DID appear to misrepresent the data in order to advance your agenda.  Did you know that the defense of your tactics you just provided in the above quote is the same defense that underlies most attempts to proof text?

Quote

As for Lubeltri, he made sure to imply "anti-Semitism" to the Orthodox Church just because I mentioned how the Vatican under Cardinal (and now Pope) Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) promotes that salvation is not through Christ alone.

So Peter, what is your point? That I misrepresente and twisted what the Vatican says? Read carefully and you will see that this is not a case of semantics or misreadings.
Yes, that is my point.  IMO, lubeltri made a good defense of Cardinal Ratzinger's theological opinions, which defense had the unintended consequence of revealing how you misrepresented the Cardinal.  You, however, have yet to provide a good defense of your thesis that Cardinal Ratzinger ever preached that salvation comes not through Christ alone and that the Vatican is therefore defective in this specific regard.


DISCLAIMER:  In no way am I trying to actually defend any Roman Catholic doctrines or theological opinions that contradict the apostolic faith of the Orthodox Church.  I just want to point out to you, Zarabas, how weak is the case you have presented thus far on this thread and what you need to do to be more convincing.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 04:56:33 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #160 on: September 11, 2008, 04:57:51 PM »

Let's get off the anti-Semitism red herring. My question was purely rhetorical. I have not accused Orthodoxy of being anti-Semitic. Just another ad hominem.
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« Reply #161 on: September 11, 2008, 05:00:08 PM »

Obviously I did read those texts and obviously I'm not going to quote the entire books just to get to the point of the matter.

I intentionally used ---> [...] brackets to show that I made a transition in the selections I wanted to put forward. In writing, this is what is done to shorten relevant passages that are being quoted. There was nothing wrong on my part for doing that. I even quoted from which page and section the information could be compared.
Actually, there IS something wrong with this approach, which I think lubeltri made quite evident.  The [...] made it appear as if you were concealing something from us in order to make your point.  Lubeltri exposed this text you hid from us and showed that the larger passage from which you drew your excerpt said something quite different, and in many ways opposite, from what you argued.

Quote
I also made sure to tell people that they should read these books and see for themselves.

I did not misrepresent the data, but only provided those relevant passages for my considerations put forward to the issue of what is "Defective" and it is not the Orthodox Church.
As I showed above, you actually DID appear to misrepresent the data in order to advance your agenda.  Did you know that the defense of your tactics you just provided in the above quote is the same defense that underlies most attempts to proof text?

Quote

As for Lubeltri, he made sure to imply "anti-Semitism" to the Orthodox Church just because I mentioned how the Vatican under Cardinal (and now Pope) Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) promotes that salvation is not through Christ alone.

So Peter, what is your point? That I misrepresente and twisted what the Vatican says? Read carefully and you will see that this is not a case of semantics or misreadings.
Yes, that is my point.  IMO, lubeltri made a good defense of Cardinal Ratzinger's theological opinions, which defense had the unintended consequence of revealing how you misrepresented the Cardinal.  You, however, have yet to provide a good defense of your thesis that Cardinal Ratzinger ever preached that salvation comes not through Christ alone and that the Vatican is therefore defective in this specific regard.


DISCLAIMER:  In no way am I trying to actually defend any Roman Catholic doctrines or theological opinions that contradict the apostolic faith of the Orthodox Church.  I just want to point out to you, Zarabas, how weak is the case you have presented thus far on this thread and what you need to do to be more convincing.

I doubt anything you'd say will convince him. He has already offered his opinion that the pope is "satanical." He starts with that assumption, and then everything else follows.
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« Reply #162 on: September 11, 2008, 06:55:11 PM »

Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust

Nonsense. Have you not heard of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty? Of Oskar Schindler? Not to mention tens of thousands of others, of various nationalities, who are recognised as "righteous Gentiles" by the Jewish people for their sterling efforts in helping and harbouring Jews during the horror of the Holocaust.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/vwall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust
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« Reply #163 on: September 12, 2008, 04:11:20 AM »

Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust

Nonsense. Have you not heard of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty? Of Oskar Schindler? Not to mention tens of thousands of others, of various nationalities, who are recognised as "righteous Gentiles" by the Jewish people for their sterling efforts in helping and harbouring Jews during the horror of the Holocaust.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/vwall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Excellent point.  (How did I miss this?)  Demetrios, within what group of people are the Greeks the only ones to harbor Jews during the Holocaust?  If you're talking about just the entire continent of Europe, then your comment shows the grossest misunderstanding of history I've ever seen. Shocked  I'll let the links LBK posted support my assessment of the sheer ignorance of your reply.
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« Reply #164 on: September 12, 2008, 05:33:43 AM »



Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust

Nonsense. Have you not heard of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty? Of Oskar Schindler? Not to mention tens of thousands of others, of various nationalities, who are recognised as "righteous Gentiles" by the Jewish people for their sterling efforts in helping and harbouring Jews during the horror of the Holocaust.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/vwall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Excellent point.  (How did I miss this?)  Demetrios, within what group of people are the Greeks the only ones to harbor Jews during the Holocaust?  If you're talking about just the entire continent of Europe, then your comment shows the grossest misunderstanding of history I've ever seen. Shocked  I'll let the links LBK posted support my assessment of the sheer ignorance of your reply.

And let's not forget the courageous Danes! http://isurvived.org/Denmark-Holocaust.html
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« Reply #165 on: September 12, 2008, 08:25:44 AM »

Let's get off the anti-Semitism red herring. My question was purely rhetorical. I have not accused Orthodoxy of being anti-Semitic. Just another ad hominem.

Lubeltri, see how you twist and manipulate what is being stated?

You first responded with a "question" intended to identify the Orthodox Church as "anti-Semitic" where you said

"So Orthodoxy is all about presuming evil motives of the Jewish people?"

What did that have to do with how the Vatican's world view has now strayed from the important teaching that salvation is only through Christ?

To be precise, your foolish claim occurred because I pointed out 100% correctly that the Vatican embraces rabbinical Judaism as an alternate route of salvation to God, and your "Pope" did this by using the Old Testament to justify this heretical view.

"Anti-Semitism" is at the heart of the matter, because in those books that your "Pope" wrote, their very purpose was a response to rabbinical Jewish authorities as a conformity to their desires and anti-Christian teachings within their own beliefs.

It is no surprise that you would first respond by saying "So Orthodoxy is all about presuming evil motives of the Jewish people?" in order to imply that the issue does rest on "Anti-Semitism" in which your "Pope" has bowed down towards.

Just because you said I took his words out of context does not make it so. The VERY CONTEXT OF THOSE TEACHINGS PUT FORWARD BY YOUR "POPE" ARE ROOTED IN THE CONTEXT OF RESPONDING TO RABBINICAL AUTHORITIES THAT CHARGE THAT CHRISTIANITY IS INHERENTLY ANTI-SEMITIC!

You may have mislead some people here who are trying their best to be polite towards you, but clearly you fail to see the obvious in what your own "Pope" says and teaches and now you embrace as well. You cant say I am wrong or have not proven my case. I didnt do anything but point out what the Vatican teaches publicly and you yourself confirmed it in your attittude expressed through your responses.

And YES the "Pope" is SATANICAL because anyone in his position who has the audacity to teach that there are OTHER paths of salvation other than Christ is ANTICHRIST! Or does the Vatican have yet another justification or label for those who deny Christ?

There is no area of "grey" when it comes to accepting Jesus Christ or rejecting Him.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 08:29:03 AM by Zarabas » Logged
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« Reply #166 on: September 12, 2008, 08:48:09 AM »

Obviously I did read those texts and obviously I'm not going to quote the entire books just to get to the point of the matter.

I intentionally used ---> [...] brackets to show that I made a transition in the selections I wanted to put forward. In writing, this is what is done to shorten relevant passages that are being quoted. There was nothing wrong on my part for doing that. I even quoted from which page and section the information could be compared.
Actually, there IS something wrong with this approach, which I think lubeltri made quite evident.  The [...] made it appear as if you were concealing something from us in order to make your point.  Lubeltri exposed this text you hid from us and showed that the larger passage from which you drew your excerpt said something quite different, and in many ways opposite, from what you argued.

Quote
I also made sure to tell people that they should read these books and see for themselves.

I did not misrepresent the data, but only provided those relevant passages for my considerations put forward to the issue of what is "Defective" and it is not the Orthodox Church.
As I showed above, you actually DID appear to misrepresent the data in order to advance your agenda.  Did you know that the defense of your tactics you just provided in the above quote is the same defense that underlies most attempts to proof text?

Quote

As for Lubeltri, he made sure to imply "anti-Semitism" to the Orthodox Church just because I mentioned how the Vatican under Cardinal (and now Pope) Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) promotes that salvation is not through Christ alone.

So Peter, what is your point? That I misrepresente and twisted what the Vatican says? Read carefully and you will see that this is not a case of semantics or misreadings.
Yes, that is my point.  IMO, lubeltri made a good defense of Cardinal Ratzinger's theological opinions, which defense had the unintended consequence of revealing how you misrepresented the Cardinal.  You, however, have yet to provide a good defense of your thesis that Cardinal Ratzinger ever preached that salvation comes not through Christ alone and that the Vatican is therefore defective in this specific regard.


DISCLAIMER:  In no way am I trying to actually defend any Roman Catholic doctrines or theological opinions that contradict the apostolic faith of the Orthodox Church.  I just want to point out to you, Zarabas, how weak is the case you have presented thus far on this thread and what you need to do to be more convincing.

Peter, where did you get that impression that the ---> [...] was intended to conceal something? That is nonsense since if I truly did want to conceal something I would have merged the sentences together as if one continuous chain. Again, you didnt read where I encouraged people to read these books and see for themselves. How could I conceal something if people would go and read those sources? This is unfair and unjust for you to say.

What I posted was a very brief post for the purpose of pointing out a Defect in the Vatican's world view so that responses could be stimulated for the purpose of addressing how the VATICAN REGARDS ORTHODOXY AS "DEFFECTIVE". I am certainly not going to write a proper thesis or book for that matter (which no one will read of course) when clearly casual discussion and commentary suffices on internet forums such as this one.

Lubeltri is mistaken about the "CONTEXT" and NO I did not take anything out of CONTEXT since the purpose of those books put forward by the Vatican were intended to alleviate (as a response to the charges of "Anti-Semitism" in Christianity) rabbinical Judaism of their so-called "fears". The very Context of those books is to distort the teachings of Christianity (which clearly they are meant for) and only because organizations like the Anti Defamation League of Binai Brith and other Zionist and Rabbinical organizations have charged Christianity with being inherently "Anti-Semitic".

So did I take anything out of context? I dont believe I have since the purpose of such texts was to demonstrate tolerance and conformity to the whims of rabbinical authorities. On this matter, you must decide for yourself since you may have not known this prior to this entire discussion. Lubeltri failed to mention the context of the books themselves and their purpose.

As I have said before, read those books and see for yourself. Pay attention to the introduction or prefaces. More importantly learn why they were written in the first place.

If you doubt me (and I dont expect anyone to trust a stranger) then you should equally doubt Lubeltri as well and then see for yourself. Wipe out what he or I have told you and go read those books and judge for yourself.
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« Reply #167 on: September 12, 2008, 08:49:37 AM »

Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust

Nonsense. Have you not heard of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty? Of Oskar Schindler? Not to mention tens of thousands of others, of various nationalities, who are recognised as "righteous Gentiles" by the Jewish people for their sterling efforts in helping and harbouring Jews during the horror of the Holocaust.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/vwall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Excellent point.  (How did I miss this?)  Demetrios, within what group of people are the Greeks the only ones to harbor Jews during the Holocaust?  If you're talking about just the entire continent of Europe, then your comment shows the grossest misunderstanding of history I've ever seen. Shocked  I'll let the links LBK posted support my assessment of the sheer ignorance of your reply.
Take it easy pal, your exploiting a typo. What I was trying to prove is that Orthodox Greeks aren't antisemitic. For the most part the Christian west gave them up in droves. Despite The individuals that are listed on that list. Most of those countries listed caved very quickly to German pressure.
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« Reply #168 on: September 12, 2008, 09:19:24 AM »

Very well said Zarabas.
Lets also not forget that the Greeks were the only people to help and harbor the Jews during the Holocaust

Nonsense. Have you not heard of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty? Of Oskar Schindler? Not to mention tens of thousands of others, of various nationalities, who are recognised as "righteous Gentiles" by the Jewish people for their sterling efforts in helping and harbouring Jews during the horror of the Holocaust.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/vwall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Excellent point.  (How did I miss this?)  Demetrios, within what group of people are the Greeks the only ones to harbor Jews during the Holocaust?  If you're talking about just the entire continent of Europe, then your comment shows the grossest misunderstanding of history I've ever seen. Shocked  I'll let the links LBK posted support my assessment of the sheer ignorance of your reply.
Take it easy pal, your exploiting a typo. What I was trying to prove is that Orthodox Greeks aren't antisemitic. For the most part the Christian west gave them up in droves. Despite The individuals that are listed on that list. Most of those countries listed caved very quickly to German pressure.

Greetings in Christ to you Demetrios,

I find it strange that I understood you, but those who feel it necessary to soften the blows against the Papacy totally misunderstood you.

In any case, I agree with you and it is strange how people forget that while only a handful of Roman Catholics helped the Jews, the VATICAN systematically supported Hitler's genocide of the Jewish people. They even helped many SS Officers escape to Latin America. Lets not forget how they encouraged the Croatian Nazi supporters who systematically persecuted Serbians because they were Orthodox.

While a handful of RCs did help others, the VATICAN endorsed and supported many outrages crimes against humanity. Which way does the scale tip I wonder?

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« Reply #169 on: September 12, 2008, 09:44:12 AM »

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« Reply #170 on: September 12, 2008, 12:25:39 PM »

This thread died off in early August and for good reason.  Since the latest barrage of posts have distanced themselves from the Pope's comments about the Orthodox Church and are now focused on the Roman Catholic Church, Judaism, and the Holocaust, I am locking this thread since it ran its natural course long ago.

-- Friul
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