Catholic School in Australia Agrees to Let Boy Named Hell Enroll

[Justin Kissel]

Catholic School in Australia Agrees to Let Boy Named Hell Enroll

"The Hell family says it may tell a Catholic school in Australia where to go after it objected to enrolling their son because of his name... The Catholic school supported a plan to enroll Max using his mother's maiden name, Wembridge, but then withdrew its invitation when the parents changed their minds about the name, Hell said. The school backed down and offered Max a place only when Hell took the issue to the media, he said. 'The school has turned around and said Max can go there, but why would you want to go there after being victimized?' Hell said."

[minasoliman]

Didn't the Church used to have bishops named Lucifer?

[Aristibule]

I'm just thinking the nicknames the kid will get - in any school. Probably Hell-boy, among others.

[Amdetsion]

This is not even beleiveable!!!

[ozgeorge]

There is actually a St. Lucifer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucifer

[PeterTheAleut]

I'm just thinking the nicknames the kid will get - in any school. Probably Hell-boy, among others.

Kids have already been calling him such names.  That's why his parents wanted to enroll him in a Catholic school.

[prodromas]

Didn't the Church used to have bishops named Lucifer?

hey i'm new to this site and find this stuff fascinating. Although with my limited knowledge of religion i read somewhere that the name Lucifer was not synonymous with Satan for a long time and more specifically the time around which saint Lucifer lived as Lucifer is Latin for bringer of light.

[PeterTheAleut]

Welcome to the forum, Podromas.   I think you'll find the posters quite friendly here, for the most part.  A few of the natives might be restless at times, though.   (OK... not hijacking the thread... back to the original discussion...)

[Justin Kissel]

Yeah there were Lucifers (including the Saint). What would be really funny is if someone's last name was Iscariot and they named their kid Judas (another Christian name). 

[ozgeorge]

What would be really funny is if someone's last name was Iscariot and they named their kid Judas (another Christian name). 

Why would that be funny?

[Αριστοκλής]

Really; it's also another Hebrew name, or Aramaic...
So what?

[TinaG]

I've tried opening the link and for whatever reason I can't connect with the site.  Is their last name Hell by personal choice or just some strange family name?  People can be so cruel to kids with naming but if that is their legit last name, it's sadly unfortunate.  Kinda reminds me of a couple of kid names my S-I-L ran into while she worked for a state agency.  "Daquiri" and drum roll please......

"Syphillis"   (Mom had no idea this was the name of an STD - just thought it was pretty.  God only knows why this country is so screwed up)

[Schultz]

Hell is not that rare of a surname.  In fact, a quick check of the Minnesota Birth Index, 1935-2002 (via genealogy.com) pulls up 156 entries.  Although not all of them are unique hits (as parents who have multiple children are listed more than once).  The Social Security Death Index lists 118 unique hits.  The names in the SSDI seem to be concentrated around Minnesota , so it's probably of Scandanavian, and, ultimately, Germanic in origin.  A quick look through the Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1948, shows most of the immigrants bearing the name Hell hail from parts of Germany and/or Prussia.  The word "Hell" means "light" or "bright" auf deutsch (hence the beer hellesbock, or "light bock").  It's entirely possible, nay, probable, that Hell is a surname in Australia due to the large numbers of northern Germans who immigrated there in the mid-19th century.  It really shouldn't cause anything more than a chuckle at the irony. 

[Heorhij]

I heard of parents naming their little girl Traviata (because they loved Verdi's operas). The saddest thing is, little they knew that "La Traviata" actually means prostitute. 

One old Ukrainian med. school professor of mine once heard a young mom calling her little girl, in an affectionate-diminutive Ukrainian way, "Traviatochka! Traviatochka!" He became so mad, and said, "well, how about calling your next female child "Melenochka" (Melena, another musically sounding quasi-Italian female name, means "black stool" in "medical Latin").

[Aristibule]

Aye - hence the connection with Hel, who was the Germanic equivalent of the Celtic Briga. The connection with the Grave was simply that when one died, one went to 'the bright place', 'Hel's dominion'. Hence - Hell, not as in the Dantesque place with sulfur and fires, but the Northwest European place of the dead (the bright land >across/under > the waves/the earth.) There are even people with the last name Devil - http://www.genealogymagazine.com/suorasin.html Either way, Hel shows up in the Brothers Grimm tale 'Frau Holle' (tale 24). Holle, Holla, Holda, Hulda - all very popular female forenames in German lands having the same etymylogical origin (often confused with the Hebrew name Huldah, meaning weasel.)

[PhosZoe]

The child cannot help his surname, I think it is downright awful provided if this story is true that the child is being blamed for a surname he did not select.

What about people named Butts Fagg or Boyle? Are people with these surnames instantly become a rear end, homosexual or  bacterial infection?   

[Schultz]

Aye - hence the connection with Hel, who was the Germanic equivalent of the Celtic Briga. The connection with the Grave was simply that when one died, one went to 'the bright place', 'Hel's dominion'. Hence - Hell, not as in the Dantesque place with sulfur and fires, but the Northwest European place of the dead (the bright land >across/under > the waves/the earth.)

It's funny you mention that, as I was just listening to a series of podcasts from the "Faith and Philosophy" series (via Ancient Faith Radio) where Dr. Carlton discusses the etymology of the English word "hell" and how, technically speaking, it is proper to use the word "hell" to translate the Greek "hades".  He even mentions how the Latin "infernum" (as is used to translate "hades" in the Vulgate) originally took on the same connotation (eg "abode of the dead).  However, there was an eventual change in the meaning of the Latin to equate "infernum" with the "gehenna" of Scripture (a word which only appears a couple of times in the Gospels).  The implication of this language shift is far reaching, eventually leading the Latin West to develop to idea of "Purgatory".  One of the reasons the Greek East had no need for such ideas is the fact that they kept the idea of "hades" as a general abode of the dead before the Last Judgment.  

Of course, then the discussion becomes entwined with eschatological time and gets far deeper than I can go into at present.  I highly suggest the "Faith and Philosophy" series for anyone who is coming East from the West, as Dr. Carlton does a great job in explaining basic Eastern Christian philosophical and theological concepts for those used to the Latin scholastic way of thinking without becoming scholastic himself.

[Justin Kissel]

It'd be funny because of the reaction that it'd get, because people get so hung up on names. Do you think anyone is ever going to use the name Jeffrey Dahmer again? It's silly. You can't strike an entire name down because one person with the name did something bad, anymore than you could condemn an entire culture because of one leader's rotten actions (e.g., saying that all Germans are bad because of Hitler). Even when I tell people my daughter's name (Athanasia), I don't even get the normal attempts at pretending that they like it, they just look at me like I'm cruel for naming someone that. *shrugs*

[Αριστοκλής]

and, of course, we do have an Epistle of St. Jude...so much for the Judas angle.

[ozgeorge]

It'd be funny because of the reaction that it'd get, because people get so hung up on names.

Strange (and ironic) coming from someone who has changed his user name three times on this forum.

[Justin Kissel]

Wow, there is a Jude in the Bible? I didn't know that!  And yet, while Jude isn't an uncommon name, I've yet to hear of someone called Judas, at least as the name that they use in public. Regarding name changes, I asked for the name changes because I didn't want to misrepresent myself, not because I suddenly took issue with the name changes. I have flirted with the idea of asking for another name change, because I don't want the current name to give the false impression that I'm Orthodox, but I figured that I've had enough changes. Though I only remember two name changes (slave of christ was never a user name, as far as I can remember; it was a log in name, which no one ever saw until people saw it in the tags section).

[minasoliman]

Wow, there is a Jude in the Bible? I didn't know that!  And yet, while Jude isn't an uncommon name, I've yet to hear of someone called Judas, at least as the name that they use in public. Regarding name changes, I asked for the name changes because I didn't want to misrepresent myself, not because I suddenly took issue with the name changes. I have flirted with the idea of asking for another name change, because I don't want the current name to give the false impression that I'm Orthodox, but I figured that I've had enough changes. Though I only remember two name changes (slave of christ was never a user name, as far as I can remember; it was a log in name, which no one ever saw until people saw it in the tags section).

Actually, I think there were two Judas's as part of the twelve.  The Bible had to differentiate the "other Judas" as "not the traitor."  In another gospel he is named "Thaddeus."

I am reminded of a story about an Indian boy named "Shaddop," who in elementary school still had an Indian accent, and when the substitute teacher asked his name, his answer would make it sound like "Shut up."

On a lighter note, although equally irritating, my name "Mina" gets confused for being a female name, understandably.  I'm always proud of the fact, jokingly, that all other female "Mina's" got it all wrong, and it's really a male name. (I could be like Fatman and say how heretical it is to make "Mina" a female name, since it's the name of a martyred saint in ancient Christianity.)

God bless.

PS  Anyone remember "Meet the Parents?"

[ozgeorge]

PS  Anyone remember "Meet the Parents?"

LOL
Growing up, one of the girls in our neighbourhood dreamed of hyphenating her name when she married. Her surname was "Waters", which you would think would hyphenate well. Unfortunately, she fell in love and married a man with the surname "Pass", and she would have become "Mrs. Pass-Waters". She decided not to hyphenate her name.....
Now that's true love..... Sacrificing your childhood dream to marry someone!

[PeterTheAleut]

A couple of names from the American world of sports:

Miroslav Satan (NHL - New York Islanders)
Angel Pagan (MLB - Chicago Cubs)

[Amdetsion]

As young architect in America I had to endure a lot of racism to my shock and surprise even from college professors who would not even speak to me or in one case not except a paper from me without my first getting a letter from the dean.

Aftre getting my first real architecture job I was entroduced to my supervisor "Jim Crow".
I thought it was a joke. But this is the name that this man goes by in 1997 America. To those who do not know "Jim Crow" was the name given to the Godless system of aparthied which was legally practiced in America during the late 18th, all the 19th and almost all of the 20th century. This name is equal to the name "Adolf Hitler" to European Jews.

Having black skin coupled with African heritage  is a type of label, a name tag that says to many people white and asian types alike and even some "black skinned non-Africans types" that we are to be treated with poor behavior.

I have been disliked by people I did not even know because of my deep black ebony skin and my rich Ethiopian (African) heritage.

In America "black Americans" (Africans) have had to fight for all the things that is due an American just because they were not white. Black Americans could not get into public schools not to mention private schools; this included the RC schools as well. This Godless behavior was OK to catholics and all other Americans until black Americans (Africans) put a stop to the non-sense by having all the laws changed that blocked us from our rights. Sadly that does not make up for the 400 or more years of loss. Black Americans (Africans) did not enter into mainstream American life as REAL Americans until 45 years ago.

(Indians and other very black skinned "non" African peoples fair out much better than people who may even be lighter in skin color but are of African heritage).

The problem wtih lables and names are not justified with bad behavior.

I do not like the name Satan, or Hell and would find it very dificault to have to deal with someone with these names. But thats MY problerm.

I must treat Mr.Smith the same as Mr. Hell.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I do not like the name Satan, or Hell and would find it very dificault to have to deal with someone with these names. But thats MY problerm.

I must treat Mr.Smith the same as Mr. Hell.

Exactly. Unfortunately, I have the same trouble. I must learn to see all people through the eyes of Christ. Not easy when it seems I'm less like him each day.

I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Lots of great thoughts there.

[Schultz]

Exactly. Unfortunately, I have the same trouble. I must learn to see all people through the eyes of Christ. Not easy when it seems I'm less like him each day.

I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Lots of great thoughts there.

It really helps to at least superficially understand the particular cultural and linguistic connotations associated with a particular surname, in these instances.  Off the top of my head, I can't remember the Slavonic word that is used to translate the Hebrew "Satan", but I'm sure it's not remotely related to the surname of hockey player Miroslav Šatan (again, I don't know what the etymology is of the surname Šatan but I'd bet my car that it has nothing to do with The Enemy).

This "controversay" reminds me of a letter I once read on EWTN's site to one of the priests who ran one of the Q&A forums about whether or not the writer should avoid people with goatees because The Enemy is usually depicted wearing one.

[Ebor]

It really helps to at least superficially understand the particular cultural and linguistic connotations associated with a particular surname, in these instances.  Off the top of my head, I can't remember the Slavonic word that is used to translate the Hebrew "Satan", but I'm sure it's not remotely related to the surname of hockey player Miroslav Šatan (again, I don't know what the etymology is of the surname Šatan but I'd bet my car that it has nothing to do with The Enemy).

When I first read of this case, I thought "I'll bet the name comes from a language that does not use that word for the "underworld"."  Looking at where words come from, or if just because they look like an English word not jumping to the idea that they *are* the same as the English ones can be Very Helpful in avoiding misunderstanding and unkindness to other people.

This "controversay" reminds me of a letter I once read on EWTN's site to one of the priests who ran one of the Q&A forums about whether or not the writer should avoid people with goatees because The Enemy is usually depicted wearing one.

If it would not offend you, I think I want to roll my eyes over that one.... or maybe get a 'logo-shaped dent' in my forehead from thumping it on my keyboard.  Good gravy!

Ebor

[Ebor]

(Indians and other very black skinned "non" African peoples fair out much better than people who may even be lighter in skin color but are of African heritage).

   Do you know about how different tribes of Native Americans have been treated?  Or some of the history of life on some of the Reservations?  The "Trail of Tears",  "Wounded Knee" or the "Baker/Marias Massacre"? There's plenty of unfair and cruel treatment to go around when there is any kind of group that is different in some way from another.  It's a very Human thing unfortunately to put down those who are not like oneself.   

A link to information on the "Baker/Marias Massacre"  http://www.dickshovel.com/parts.html

Ebor

[Schultz]

If it would not offend you, I think I want to roll my eyes over that one.... or maybe get a 'logo-shaped dent' in my forehead from thumping it on my keyboard.  Good gravy!

Ebor

Oh, it wouldn't offend me as well.  I think the priest who responded was probably laughing aloud as he typed it.  He told her to lighten up and not take Western artistic convention as gospel truth, so to speak.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

It's a very Human thing unfortunately to put down those who are not like oneself.   

Very true. We must learn, though, that no one is not like oneself, for we are all the image and likeness of God. I speak first to myself, here--this is something I am still learning.

[Ebor]

Very true. We must learn, though, that no one is not like oneself, for we are all the image and likeness of God. I speak first to myself, here--this is something I am still learning.

Exactly so.     And since God made all us in His image yet also with so many different talents and gifts and sizes and shapes and colours and likes and dislikes, it's important to recall the idea that "The things and ways *I* like are not the Laws of the Universe(tm)"   

Ebor

[lubeltri]

Last night I was watching J.J. Putz pitch in the All-Star Game. Can you imagine having a surname like that in middle school?

-

I've imagined that Lucifer ("Light-bearer") is a name like that of Tolkien's Melkor. In Quenya it means "He Who Arises in Might," but he later received the name Morgoth, which means "Dark Enemy" in Sindarin. Satan means "Adversary." So the original name is not necessarily bad.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I've imagined that Lucifer ("Light-bearer") is a name like that of Tolkien's Melkor. In Quenya it means "He Who Arises in Might," but he later received the name Morgoth, which means "Dark Enemy" in Sindarin. Satan means "Adversary." So the original name is not necessarily bad.

I imagine that was exactly what Tolkien had in mind when he created Morgoth. Keep in mind, though, that Tolkien never wrote in allegory--he hated it, even tried to get Lewis to abandon the genre while he was writing Narnia. Even still, LOTR is definitely born of a paradigm deeply rooted in historical Christianity; I'm never surprised when Tolkien's work illumines the world at large.

[lubeltri]

I imagine that was exactly what Tolkien had in mind when he created Morgoth. Keep in mind, though, that Tolkien never wrote in allegory--he hated it

Very true. I think he rather preferred something he called "applicability." I wonder how conscious the Lucifer/Melkor parallel was. In the Silmarillion, it is a very compelling account of the origin and nature of evil.

[Amdetsion]

  Do you know about how different tribes of Native Americans have been treated?  Or some of the history of life on some of the Reservations?  The "Trail of Tears",  "Wounded Knee" or the "Baker/Marias Massacre"? There's plenty of unfair and cruel treatment to go around when there is any kind of group that is different in some way from another.  It's a very Human thing unfortunately to put down those who are not like oneself.   

A link to information on the "Baker/Marias Massacre"  http://www.dickshovel.com/parts.html

Ebor

It is a Godless and cruel nature that harbors frustration and intolorence for others just because they have a name like "Hell" or "Hitler" or any other label such as being a "black person" or "white person". If this describes what you call "humans" than you have put a real point to task which I would like to entertain slightly.....

Humans are the most fragile living element on earth (a little too cold or little to hot...bang! dead). We never stop to think of the fact that the earth, the universe even can do without us. We have know part to play in the natural order that is around us. We are like parasites. Even an ant has more power and worth in the natural order than we do. Remove ants from the balance of nature and watch what happens. Christ used the ant as an example for us to follow.

So to me saying "we are only human" is not a reason at all.

Racism is very bad behavior and is most concernedly 'GODLESS'.

It shocks me to see and hear racists and bigots talk about God. I wonder why do they even bother.

People who want to intentional create bad results for good efforts by Good people are wicked and satanic.

When a Christian person feels good that they are white and not black and thus does not have to worry about the bad treatment, loss and disenfranchisement blacks have to endure (from whites primarily and others); they are by nature 'counter-christians' (my own term). They are willing to live with corruption, forsaking the Christian way "to love not the world" and to "seek yee first the kingdom of Heaven".

Being Human is know excuse for sin and Godlessness.

We are to follow Christ. He taught us to do this becuase He knows that we do not posses virtue on our own.

A Christian must....MUST be ready to keep the straight ("Ortho") way ("doxa") and persue it with diligence; unrelenting. This is the essence, the fount of Christs Church which is "Orthodox".

We are one faith without a lable or defining border.

We must see ourselves as The Church - of Bulgaria, The Church - of Greece, The Church - of Russia, The Church of - Corinth, The Church - of Thessalonica, The Church - of Rome, The Church - of Ethiopia, The Church - of Egypt.

We must simply see ourselves as The Church.

Christs Church is labeled by His Body and His Blood; not a country.

Are we kidding ourselves when we think that our "churches" are "national" churches? I say YES!

The church that Christ heads is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic.

We have found walls for ourselves and reasons of "distinction" of our own making with labels such as Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox etc. Putting the most important aspect of who we are or should be second which is: "Church". Who decided this? Is not clear that we are the "Church" first.

The Church is our name, Identity, label and way of life. Our national origin is subject to the Church not the other way around.

Sadly;These distinctions have (althought unwittingly) has imprisoned us from each other and the world that so desperately needs the hope and the love that is present in the Holy faith.

So much for names and labels.

The name "Hell" is not the problem at all.

The word Love is.

God Help Us!

Your Servant
Deacon Amde Tsion

[PeterTheAleut]

Last night I was watching J.J. Putz pitch in the All-Star Game. Can you imagine having a surname like that in middle school?

Interesting...  You probably saw, then, Putz's teammate with the Mariners, Ichiro Suzuki, hit his inside-the-park home run, the first such home run in All-Star Game history.  (Okay, back to the topic.)

[lubeltri]

Yes. I was cheering him all the way! 11 in a row!

[Ebor]

It is a Godless and cruel nature that harbors frustration and intolorence for others just because they have a name like "Hell" or "Hitler" or any other label such as being a "black person" or "white person". If this describes what you call "humans" than you have put a real point to task which I would like to entertain slightly.....

I'm sorry that I was not clear.  I was trying to say that this kind of behaviour is not limited to only one race or ethnicity or group.  It is something that is, unfortunately, common to humanity in general.  It is a thing that needs to be resisted, to be killed as it were, so that all people are seen as just as Human as we are, and to be treated, as Jesus said, the same as we ourselves would wish to be treated. 

The examples I gave regarding Native Americans were to show that no one group has a 'lock' on being mistreated.

Humans are the most fragile living element on earth (a little too cold or little to hot...bang! dead).

I'm sorry. I have to disagree with you on this point.  Human beings are adaptable.  We have been able to protect ourselves against extreme cold and heat.  That is how there are people in the arctic climes and at many thousands of feet of altitude in the Himalayas and Andes, in deserts and savannahs and temperate places.  We can eat both plants and animal foods. 

So to me saying "we are only human" is not a reason at all.

I didn't say "we are only human". The words are yours.  It is an unhappily common trait for people to look down on the "Other" or the "Different" and to be cruel.  That doesn't make it right.  Being aware that people act this way, perhaps unthinkingly, can help us to try to not do such things.

Being Human is know excuse for sin and Godlessness.

I don't think anyone here *is* excusing sin.  It reads like this whole case was a very unfortunate misunderstanding with some people behaving badly. 

The name "Hell" is not the problem at all.

Agreed.  Just because a word from one language looks like one in another doesn't mean that there is any actual commaonality.  But some people apparently didn't understand and acted badly. 

Ebor

[Ebor]

Last night I was watching J.J. Putz pitch in the All-Star Game. Can you imagine having a surname like that in middle school?

Or elementary school.  Teasing is something that is all too common with children, and any kind of difference like wearing glasses, or buck teeth or having a, to their ears, odd name is just the sort of "difference" that marks a child as a "target".  I've been there. 
-

Ebor

[observer]

Forgive my levity but I'm not a psychologist   I knew a guy called Death. I hope he doesn't sew (stitch up) the Church for claiming that Death has been overcome.  I mean today you just don't know how rude you can be according to PC madness (sorry mental illness or psychologically challenged)

[Justin Kissel]

George said: Strange (and ironic) coming from someone who has changed his user name three times on this forum. 
 
Justin said: ...I only remember two name changes...

Just to clarify, I just came across a name that was also mine... though it was a 2nd name and not the result of a name change. I'm not sure why I felt the need to get a 2nd name and post under it...

[tweety234]

There is actually a St. Lucifer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucifer

what?

[tweety234]

Wow, there is a Jude in the Bible? I didn't know that!  And yet, while Jude isn't an uncommon name, I've yet to hear of someone called Judas, at least as the name that they use in public. Regarding name changes, I asked for the name changes because I didn't want to misrepresent myself, not because I suddenly took issue with the name changes. I have flirted with the idea of asking for another name change, because I don't want the current name to give the false impression that I'm Orthodox, but I figured that I've had enough changes. Though I only remember two name changes (slave of christ was never a user name, as far as I can remember; it was a log in name, which no one ever saw until people saw it in the tags section).

are you not an orthodox? what are you? just curious since you mentioned it.

[macclesfieldfan1990]

We must see ourselves as The Church - of Bulgaria, The Church - of Greece, The Church - of Russia, The Church of - Corinth, The Church - of Thessalonica, The Church - of Rome, The Church - of Ethiopia, The Church - of Egypt.

Um...America?

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