OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 20, 2014, 02:32:52 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Old Believer Cross  (Read 12133 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,646


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« on: July 08, 2007, 02:53:14 AM »

Now that we have an Old Believer on our forum, I just have to ask some questions about the Old Believers' beautiful cross:


http://www.gallerybyzantium.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=byzg&Product_Code=1035

This is the only picture of one I could find.  If someone has a better picture, please link or post it.

I have always thought these crosses are amazing, as they are so beautiful, elaborate and seem so full of symbolism. 

Can anyone explain the history of these crosses?  Is there more to the symbolism than what is explained in the link I posted above?  Does the design of these crosses have anything to do with how the Old Believers make the Sign of the Cross?  Do Old Believers wear other Orthodox crosses?  Do other EO's ever wear Old Believer crosses?  Is anyone able to make out and translate the inscription on the back of the cross in the link?  Do all Old Believer crosses have that inscription, or others?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I've always admired these crosses and have always wondered about them.  Thanks in advance.
Logged

Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,646


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2007, 02:57:18 AM »

Here is another one:

http://www.gallerybyzantium.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=byzg&Product_Code=861
Logged

fatman2021
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Banned
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Old-Orthodox Church
Posts: 152

Protopope Avvakum, pray for us.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2007, 03:16:18 AM »

That is a women's baptismal cross...
Logged

O God be merciful to me a sinner. You, O Lord who created me, have mercy on me. I have sinned without number,O Lord, have mercy on me and forgive me, a sinner.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,646


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2007, 02:02:16 AM »

You mean the first one?  How do you know it is a woman's baptismal cross?  By the inscription?

Is there any other info you can give us about Old Believer Crosses? 
Logged

Didymus
Peace and grace.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HG Coptic Bishop Anba Daniel of Sydney
Posts: 563


St. Thomas Didymus the Apostle of India


« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2007, 08:04:41 AM »

Very beautiful although would not use them myself until a branch of The Church in communion with others used them as well.
Logged

...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime.
...because I am blind and yet I see.
fatman2021
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Banned
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Old-Orthodox Church
Posts: 152

Protopope Avvakum, pray for us.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2007, 09:38:33 PM »

Left - Women's Cross Right - Men's Cross

The Baptismal Crosses are used to show that you have been given a canonical baptism. Old Believer crosses are commonly used by EO churches in Russia and eastern Europe. You don't see them because they are worn under the persons clothing. The crosses are also used the remind the person of there baptismal vows. Old Believer Priests and Bishops use standerd Russian Orthodox crosses and pendants. Slavonic lettering on the reverse reading from Psalm 68(LXX):


68:1 Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered; and let them that hate him flee from before him. 2 As smoke vanishes, let them vanish: as wax melts before the fire, so let the sinners perish from before God. 3 But let the righteous rejoice; let them exult before God: let them be delighted with joy.

4 Sing to God, sing praises to his name: make a way for him that rides upon the west (the Lord is his name) and exult before him. They shall be troubled before the face of him, 5 who is the father of the orphans, and judge of the widows: such is God in his holy place. 6 God settles the solitary in a house; leading forth prisoners mightily, also them that act provokingly, even them that dwell in tombs.

7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou wentest through the wilderness; Pause: 8 the earth quaked, yea, the heavens dropped water at the presence of the God of Sina, at the presence of the God of Israel. 9 O God, thou wilt grant to thine inheritance a gracious rain; for it was weary, but thou didst refresh it.

10 Thy creatures dwell in it: thou hast in thy goodness prepared for the poor. 11 The Lord God will give a word to them that preach it in a great company. 12 The king of the forces of the beloved, of the beloved, will even grant them for the beauty of the house to divide the spoils. 13 Even if ye should lie among the lots, ye shall have the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her breast with yellow gold. 14 When the heavenly One scatters kings upon it, they shall be made snow-white in Selmon. 15 The mountain of God is a rich mountain; a swelling mountain, a rich mountain. 16 Wherefore do ye conceive evil, ye swelling mountains? this is the mountain which God has delighted to dwell in; yea, the Lord will dwell in it for ever.

17 The chariots of God are ten thousand fold, thousands of rejoicing ones: the Lord is among them, in Sina, in the holy place. 18 Thou art gone up on high, thou hast led captivity captive, thou hast received gifts for man, yea, for they were rebellious, that thou mightest dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord God, blessed be the Lord daily; and the God of our salvation shall prosper us. Pause. 20 Our God is the God of salvation; and to the Lord belong the issues from death. 21 But God shall crust the heads of his enemies; the hairy crown of them that go on in their trespasses. 22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Basan, I will bring my people again through the depths of the sea. 23 That thy foot may be dipped in blood, and the tongue of thy dogs be stained with that of thine enemies.

24 Thy goings, O God, have been seen; the goings of my God, the king, in the sanctuary. 25 The princes went first, next before the players on instruments, in the midst of damsels playing on timbrels. 26 Praise God in the congregations, the Lord from the fountains of Israel. 27 There is Benjamin the younger one in ecstasy, the princes of Juda their rulers, the princes of Zabulon, the princes of Nephthali.

28 O God, command thou thy strength: strengthen, O God, this which thou hast wrought in us. 29 Because of thy temple at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents to thee. 30 Rebuke the wild beasts of the reed: let the crowd of bulls with the heifers of the nations be rebuked, so that they who have been proved with silver may not be shut out: scatter thou the nations that wish for wars. 31 Ambassadors shall arrive out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall hasten to stretch out her hand readily to God.

32 Sing to God, ye kingdoms of the earth; sing psalms to the Lord. Pause. 33 Sing to God that rides on the heaven of heaven, eastward: lo, he will utter a mighty sound with his voice. 34 Give ye glory to God: his excellency is over Israel, and his power is in the clouds. 35 God is wonderful in his holy places, the God of Israel: he will give power and strength to his people: blessed be God.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 10:26:26 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

O God be merciful to me a sinner. You, O Lord who created me, have mercy on me. I have sinned without number,O Lord, have mercy on me and forgive me, a sinner.
Aristibule
Your Weaker Brother
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 515


Xeno


« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2007, 11:20:33 PM »

Very beautiful although would not use them myself until a branch of The Church in communion with others used them as well.

There are very many of the Old Rite both in the Moscow Patriarchate, and here in ROCOR. In the latter, Bp. Daniel of Erie pastors the Old Rite community in Erie, PA. Not sure who fatman2021 is with - he sounds similar to someone I once knew J.A.
Logged

"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866
Symeon
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 582


Radovan Karadzic - Serbian Hero


« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 11:26:46 PM »

My baptismal cross is an Ornate Old Believer. I'm OCA and my priest had no objections. Take that for what its worth.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 11:27:25 PM by Symeon » Logged
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 199


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 09:59:47 AM »

Greetings Topic,

Salpy asks:

> Can anyone explain the history of these crosses?

The history is not unlike the history which many Russians already know well. When the Holy Apostle Andrew arrived in what is known now as the Russian land he set up an 8 end cross in order to more fully express the Gospel there. With the Crusaders using the 4 point cross (thereby becoming such a symbol of heresy) and as Russia became the last Christian empire, the Russian rules are that a 4 end cross cannot be used without there also being an 8 end cross with it. This is in order to be distinct from the heretics and maintain that Apostolic tradition which is rightly Russian. The Old Believer style crosses do all trace back to the conversion of Russia to Orthodox Christianity at the time of Vladimir the Great.

> Is there more to the symbolism than what
> is explained in the link I posted above?

There is always more to explain, but sometimes the learning comes best by practicing their way. I am not sure how much more explanation of the sybolism can be explained in a forum like this.

> Does the design of these crosses have
> anything to do with how the Old Believers
> make the Sign of the Cross?

When in worship and the time for venerating the Cross approaches (and if there is no other Cross, like a wall cross, available) an individual may use their personal cross. In this gesture of veneration the cross is taken from its place under the shirt (rubukha), placed specially between the two fingers in the form of the hand used by Old Believers. Then the Sign of the Cross is made with the cross specially between the two fingers and immediately thereafter the cross is faced toward the worshipper and lovingly kissed. Then the cross is carefully placed back where it is to be kept.

> Do Old Believers wear other Orthodox crosses?

The only crosses I have personally seen Old Believers wear are the more ornate cross for females and the soldier cross for males. However, there are Angel crosses and others which are said to be from old times also. I do not know how appropriate for a Christian they are or not.

> Do other EO's ever wear Old Believer crosses?

I know that many modern style EO's mistake the female cross for what it is, that men wear such a thing. Lord have mercy. This is what happens in this age of Great Apostasy.

> Do all Old Believer crosses have that inscription, or others?

From the many Old Believers around the world, who I have contact with, theirs (and mine) all have that one and only inscription. Many Old Believers have departed the old ways, sadly, so there is no telling what somebody might find out there.

Forgive, John Alden

MyMartyrdom.com









Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,646


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 11:36:48 AM »

Thank you for explaining this, Mr. Alden!  As I said, I always find these crosses to be very beautiful.
Logged

Eleos
Elder
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Posts: 252


« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 11:46:26 AM »

Thanks.  My wife has the female old believer cross which is her baptismal cross.  We never knew this was an old believer cross.  We love it very much and over the last 13 years that she's worn it, its sparked countless conversations with people wanting to know what it is, and leads to conversations about her orthodoxy. 
Logged

"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965
Thomas06
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 03:45:35 PM »

Actually, this is a "Soldiers Cross", not an Old Believer cross (look it up!  Wink )
Logged
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 199


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 04:54:32 PM »

Thank you for explaining this, Mr. Alden!  As I said, I always find these crosses to be very beautiful.

You are welcome Ms. Salpy.
Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 199


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2008, 03:24:06 PM »

Actually, this is a "Soldiers Cross", not an Old Believer cross

To the strict Old Believers they are the last good soldiers, it is no contradiction.
Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2008, 03:41:11 PM »

That's very interesting. Very beautiful crosses! I have a question. Are Orthodox Christians only allowed to wear Orthodox crosses? One of my friends received a very ostentatious, diamond-encrusted (non-Orthodox) cross as an engagement gift from her husband. She wears it quite often. How do we view such a practice? Is it correct to wear a cross which so obviously ornamental? Just wondering.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
RLNM
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 136


RLNM
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 04:16:21 PM »

For what it is worth, my children's baptismal crosses were just simple western style crosses from Walmart (the best we could do) and the priest didn't have any objections.
Logged

"This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2008, 04:29:42 PM »

Very beautiful although would not use them myself until a branch of The Church in communion with others used them as well.

Why do you say this? I'm puzzled why we are allowed to wear a very showy, worldly, jewel-encrusted cross or a simple non-Orthodox cross from Walmart (no offense RLNM-I'm just using this as an example!), but not an Old Believer one which looks very Orthodox to me?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
RLNM
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 136


RLNM
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2008, 08:38:38 PM »

^ I'm not the least be bothered Rosehip. Smiley The way I see it, the style of the cross is not what it is all about in the least. The entire point is what the cross represents.
Logged

"This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,517


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2008, 08:42:02 PM »

My husband has the soldiers cross shown above, my sons is a smaller version that is slightly different but essentially the same cross.
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2008, 08:56:47 PM »

Why do you say this? I'm puzzled why we are allowed to wear a very showy, worldly, jewel-encrusted cross or a simple non-Orthodox cross from Walmart (no offense RLNM-I'm just using this as an example!), but not an Old Believer one which looks very Orthodox to me?

What exactly is a non-Orthodox cross?  The West was Orthodox for 1000 years and has a rich tradition of a variety of crosses (beautiful celtic crosses for example).  Also, the pectoral crosses many Priests and Bishops wear sometimes follow a similar, crux ordinaria shape.

I don't see the style of a cross or its material being a huge issue.  Unless there is something distinctly "wrong" with it (heretical inscriptions, etc).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 08:59:22 PM by Friul » Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2008, 09:04:17 PM »

That's very interesting. Very beautiful crosses! I have a question. Are Orthodox Christians only allowed to wear Orthodox crosses? One of my friends received a very ostentatious, diamond-encrusted (non-Orthodox) cross as an engagement gift from her husband. She wears it quite often. How do we view such a practice? Is it correct to wear a cross which so obviously ornamental? Just wondering.

Rosehip,

I have several crosses; one is a Celtic weave in plain gold and I looking to get a Celtic Cross with triquetras and a circle for my next birthday. I love the symbolism of Celtic Crosses. The others I have are of gold with gemstones; one being completely of garnets; the other of tourmaline, iolite and diamonds. Ostentatious crosses do seem to be a tradition in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism); some of those owned by the Tsarina Alexandra are stunning.  

I tend to like to wear crosses and did so long before I converted to Orthodoxy. My baptismal cross is an old favourite, a traditional Latin cross, given to me by my husband many years ago and if I wear another cross (or any piece of jewellery) on display, I usually wear the baptismal cross under my clothing.  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 09:12:56 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,517


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2008, 09:11:34 PM »

After checking, my sons is a Saint Nicholas cross, but it is nearly identical to the Soliders cross.

My cross is the Saint Xenia cross. Does anyone know why it is called that? My patron saint is Xenia of Saint Petersburg, and I love the cross. But I would love to know what the connection is.
Logged
Bridget
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 31


« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2008, 12:57:59 AM »

Jumping on the "questions about crosses" bandwagon, I have one! The cross I received at my Chrismation is the St. Olga Cross, with the blue enamel in the center. I was just wondering if the blue has any special significance?  I know in general that blue is the color for the Theotokos, but is that the case with this cross as well?

Bridget
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2008, 11:39:52 PM »

I'd like to "bump" this thread, so here's another question: would this "La Primavera" cross be suitable to wear? It strikes my fancy mightily, but am afraid it might not be kosher...

http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/C-248A/La-Primavera-Cross/

Any opinions?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 11:42:06 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2008, 11:52:51 PM »

I'd like to "bump" this thread, so here's another question: would this "La Primavera" cross be suitable to wear? It strikes my fancy mightily, but am afraid it might not be kosher...

http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/C-248A/La-Primavera-Cross/

Any opinions?

I don't see why not.  I bet "Hopeful Faithful" would disagree though.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,209


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2008, 12:22:33 AM »

I don't see why not.  I bet "Hopeful Faithful" would disagree though.
And if he does... ?
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2008, 12:24:23 AM »

And if he does... ?
Anathema  laugh
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2008, 12:32:10 AM »

I'd like to "bump" this thread, so here's another question: would this "La Primavera" cross be suitable to wear? It strikes my fancy mightily, but am afraid it might not be kosher...

http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/C-248A/La-Primavera-Cross/

Any opinions?

I like the symbolism on that cross very much and would have no problem wearing it. I also wear a Catholic medallion of Mary with my baptismal cross. Might not be kosher to some, but it has great meaning to me.

I have always worn a cross as an expression of my faith and before I was Orthodox I often met with opposition from members of the evangelical group I belonged to. But I continued to wear it and was thrilled when it became my baptismal cross.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2008, 02:56:00 AM »

And if he does... ?

I'll tell him thank you for sharing....(even though I won't care  Grin).
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,209


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2008, 02:58:16 AM »

I'll tell him thank you for sharing....(even though I won't care  Grin).
LOL! laugh  I like that answer. Grin
Logged
JohnC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 21


« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2008, 10:07:17 AM »

"Are Orthodox Christians only allowed to wear Orthodox crosses?"

How would you define a non-Orthodox cross? I'm having difficulty imagining what it might look like.


Logged
RLNM
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 136


RLNM
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2008, 10:59:08 AM »

^ I'm not the least be bothered Rosehip. Smiley The way I see it, the style of the cross is not what it is all about in the least. The entire point is what the cross represents.

This is what I put earlier in the discussion, and I've never heard in the long past or most recent past anything to indicate that a cross of any style is "off limits". There are many different styles of crosses, and most every one was designed to emphasize and remind of particular concepts. These concepts are what is important. When you get down to it, the cross itself is really just a bit of metal or wood. Then it is blessed. Then it is special. But, a bit of trivia: The swastika was origionally used as a cross, and then it was corrupted so badly by Hitler that I would not ever recommend that style to be used as a cross anymore.
Logged

"This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2008, 09:12:16 PM »

"Are Orthodox Christians only allowed to wear Orthodox crosses?"

How would you define a non-Orthodox cross? I'm having difficulty imagining what it might look like.
Welcome to the forum! Wow, John, an hour and a half into your OC.net career and you've posted one of the best posts I've read this month. I've nominated this for the prestigious OC. net "Post of the Month" award! Please, write more like this!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 09:15:18 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,997



« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2008, 09:29:23 PM »

I have a question. Are Orthodox Christians only allowed to wear Orthodox crosses?

One of the men chrismated this past Holy Saturday was given a Celtic/Irish cross by his godfather.  Our priest blessed it and gave it to him to wear following his chrismation.  He didn't seem to find it objectionable.  However, and I may be quite wrong on this, the Irish/Celtic cross was made by St. Patrick who is, of course, an Orthodox saint, not just for the Western Rite but for the Eastern as well.  If that is the case, then it truly is an Orthodox cross.

But if a cross is blessed by a priest, then I suppose at that point, it is "made" Orthodox.  I don't know really.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2008, 09:31:51 PM »

The reason I asked the question regarding "non-Orthodox crosses" (an oxymoron, it seems), was because Hopeful Faithful used the expression "Orthodox cross" as opposed to "Old Believer cross". Another person said he would decline from wearing an "Old Believer" cross, until certain conditions were met. Generally I have noticed all the people at my parish wear a certain style of cross, which I always thought was what one would call an "Orthodox" cross. Also, many people call the 3 bar cross an "Orthodox" cross. I admit, I am afraid at times to commit a faux pas and want to get things straight. I myself have one of those tiny, cheap, silver, Russian baptismal crosses with slavonic writing on the back.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2008, 09:32:24 PM »

I'll tell him thank you for sharing....(even though I won't care  Grin).

or as an old friend who'd been in the Navy would say "Your comment has been noted and logged."
(which would then be ignored.  Wink )
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2008, 12:29:19 AM »

One of the men chrismated this past Holy Saturday was given a Celtic/Irish cross by his godfather.  Our priest blessed it and gave it to him to wear following his chrismation.  He didn't seem to find it objectionable.  However, and I may be quite wrong on this, the Irish/Celtic cross was made by St. Patrick who is, of course, an Orthodox saint, not just for the Western Rite but for the Eastern as well.  If that is the case, then it truly is an Orthodox cross.

But if a cross is blessed by a priest, then I suppose at that point, it is "made" Orthodox.  I don't know really.

Legend has it that St Patrick, while talking to some Irish Druids who were soon to be converted, drew a simple Latin Cross through a pagan circle (the symbol of eternity). In so doing, he was expressing the eternal life offered by the Cross. There are claims, though, that the cross with the circle pre-dates Christianity as a pagan symbol of sun worship, but even if it was a pre-Christian symbol it was embraced by Celtic Christians, who were indeed Orthodox.

Having said that, I find a plain Latin Cross to be a most powerful symbol and had no qualms about choosing my old one for my baptismal cross.  My husband's baptismal cross is a Jerusalem Cross I bought for him in Israel twenty years ago.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2010, 06:41:49 AM »


I myself have one of those tiny, cheap, silver, Russian baptismal crosses with slavonic writing on the back.

It will almost certainly say Спаси и Сохрани, Spasi i Sokhrani, which means

Save and Protect
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,397



« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2010, 08:22:34 PM »

But, a bit of trivia: The swastika was origionally used as a cross, and then it was corrupted so badly by Hitler that I would not ever recommend that style to be used as a cross anymore.

Hmm.  That explains why the water boiled when I went under . . . No, seriously, the Swastika was used by some of the early Copts, and there is one rather beautiful church in, I believe, Ethiopia that is heavily ornamented with this symbol. 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2010, 08:30:45 PM »

I've seen frescoes embed with swastikas in a Church my uncle is a Parish Priest of. He is not a Copt and I doubt these embroiders are older that 200 years.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Thankful
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 263



« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2010, 08:26:56 PM »

I'd like to "bump" this thread, so here's another question: would this "La Primavera" cross be suitable to wear? It strikes my fancy mightily, but am afraid it might not be kosher...

http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/C-248A/La-Primavera-Cross/

Any opinions?

Ack!  Eek! Yay!     Smiley
My husband and I bought our wedding rings from James Avery 18 years ago and I'd forgotten the name! This is the first time since then I've been able to find this information.  Thank you!  And it's a beautiful cross.  Although I'm not qualified to comment on its state of orthodoxy. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:27:38 PM by Thankful » Logged

SemiActiveLDS
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: LDS (Mormon) - Non Poligamist/Non Fundamentalist
Posts: 1


« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2010, 07:58:18 PM »

I'd like to "bump" this thread, so here's another question: would this "La Primavera" cross be suitable to wear? It strikes my fancy mightily, but am afraid it might not be kosher... http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/C-248A/La-Primavera-Cross/ Any opinions?

Ack!  Eek! Yay!     Smiley
My husband and I bought our wedding rings from James Avery 18 years ago and I'd forgotten the name! This is the first time since then I've been able to find this information.  Thank you!  And it's a beautiful cross.  Although I'm not qualified to comment on its state of orthodoxy.  



I absolutely adore this cross. I use to sit for hours and copy it, by drawing it with a sharpie on my ex husband's arm, before we had our children. Funny thing is -a couple of things. 1. I didn't realize it was a cross for probably about 2 years or so.  2. Once I did realize it was a cross, my typical reluctance to wanting to have crosses around me (because of the religion I've been born and raised in...Mormonism. They don't wear crosses or use them as symbols in their religion, because to them, it represents sadness....and they choose to remember that Jesus died for our sins in their minds, and by studying scripture and so on. ) I say "them" - because I've not been an active Mormon for over 18 years. Although, I am still somewhat interacting with the church.

But also - for people who may have been raised like me, this may be either a good "starter cross" - that isn't so traditionally cross feeling....and it may not draw so much negative attention from others who still feel that crosses shouldn't be worn.

***Just so ya'll know. I'm not here to stir up trouble...or argue religion's good or bads or rights or wrongs. I found this thread looking for the La Primavera cross and I was interested and thought I'd share with you guys. I also thought you might find it a bit entertaining that I had NO IDEA there was such a huge span of differences in what type of cross you should have for what type of event.  LOL***
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 08:00:49 PM by SemiActiveLDS » Logged
Tags: Old Believers cross Holy Cross jewelry Jew bashing 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.132 seconds with 68 queries.