Catholics have no right to be called Roman

[GiC]

Firstly, they are Roman Catholics

They're neither Romans nor Catholics, Latins, Westerners, Papists, etc., etc., yes, and I will even go on to say they are Christians as well...but not Roman, the Roman Church was the Imperial Church, and not Catholic, it's a local patriarchate.

[TomS]

They're neither Romans nor Catholics, Latins, Westerners, Papists, etc., etc., yes, and I will even go on to say they are Christians as well...but not Roman, the Roman Church was the Imperial Church, and not Catholic, it's a local patriarchate.

Right. They are Papists! 

[Anastasios]

And the point of this thread is?

[ozgeorge]

And the point of this thread is?

Apparently, GiC has some point to make in posting this on the forum. Trolling perhaps?

[GiC]

Apparently, GiC has some point to make in posting this on the forum. Trolling perhaps?

Ummm, yeah, the point was to respond to an accusation you made against me. This is generally a topic I avoid, but I wasn't given too much choice in the matter this time.

[Tallitot]

Catholics don't call themselves "Roman Catholic'....the term was invented by high church Anglicans who liked to refer to themselves as "Anglo-Catholic". The Catholics were the "Papists", the Anglo-Catholics were the "Apists"

[ozgeorge]

Ummm, yeah, the point was to respond to an accusation you made against me. This is generally a topic I avoid, but I wasn't given too much choice in the matter this time.

Well, you chose not to avoid it this time, and you decided to post it, so I thought I might expose it to a little more scrutiny.
Machiavellian? ....Perhaps...

[GiC]

Well, you chose not to avoid it this time, and you decided to post it, so I thought I might expose it to a little more scrutiny.
Machiavellian? ....Perhaps...

Well, I've made no secret of how easy it is to get me into a fight...call me out and I'll probably come out swinging.

Cowardice is to be feared more than defeat.

[PeterTheAleut]

Cowardice is to be feared more than defeat.

There's also a fine line between being courageous and being just plain foolhardy.

[GiC]

Of course, if the term 'papist' is to be banned on this board, that's fine, just let me know and I'll find another word to use...while I may come across as one, I'm not such a dolt as to be unable to think up synonyms. And even if my knowledge of the English language does let me down, I do know how to use a thesaurus. Perhaps we could have a list of 'forbidden words' to prevent such misunderstandings in the future and I'm still not clear on the status of the term 'papist', which has been used quite extensively on this board and is even the name of one of the posters here.

[Αριστοκλής]

How do you post a 'forbidden' words list without using those words?

Just thought I'd ask... 

[Αριστοκλής]

My, my... agree with GiC in part here. The real question is why we abdicated the word "Catholic" to them, in reality if not officially, not the word "Roman".

Let the games begin.


Thanks, Peter

[GiC]

There's also a fine line between being courageous and being just plain foolhardy.

Courage and Foolishness, like Cowardice and Wisdom, are not synonyms, nor are they antonyms, they are distinct. One can be a courageous fool or a wise coward, just as one can be wise and courageous or cowardly and foolish. To quote the latin proverb, 'timidi mater non flet.'

However, what I suggested was more along the lines of Herodotus: 'Far better is it to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen and never incur a mischance.'

[PeterTheAleut]

My, my... agree with GiC in part here. The real question is why we abdicated the word "Catholic" to them, in reality if not officially, not the word "Roman".

Let the games begin.

I don't understand your post.  Do you mean to say something like this:  "The real question is why we abdicated the word 'Catholic' to them,..." ?

[GiC]

How do you post a 'forbidden' words list without using those words?

Just thought I'd ask... 

Perhaps we could post them in Latin, as has been the custom when writing someting deemed 'inappropriate'.

[PeterTheAleut]

Perhaps we could post them in Latin, as has been the custom when writing someting deemed 'inappropriate'.

But what does that do to us who can read Latin?  If I can read every language, does it matter what language one uses to speak an insult?  It's like the classmate decades ago who thought he could get away with cussing in Spanish around a music teacher, not knowing that she also taught Spanish.   WHOOPS!

[ozgeorge]

They're neither Romans nor Catholics, Latins, Westerners, Papists, etc., etc., yes, and I will even go on to say they are Christians as well...but not Roman, the Roman Church was the Imperial Church, and not Catholic, it's a local patriarchate.

I can't wait until lubeltri finds out he can't be called Catholic. Perhaps I'll email him a link to this post......

[ozgeorge]

Oh, and shouldn't this forum be renamed? It surely can't continue to be called "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
What would you suggest GiC? "Orthodox-Latin Discussion"? But then there's Deacon Lance. hmmmm....

[TomS]

Oh, and shouldn't this forum be renamed? It surely can't continue to be called "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
What would you suggest GiC? "Orthodox-Latin Discussion"? But then there's Deacon Lance. hmmmm....

I suggest "Orthodox vs Satan's Church of Pedophile Priests (SCOPPs) 

[ozgeorge]

I suggest "Orthodox vs Satan's Church of Pedophile Priests (SCOPPs) 

Good to see GiC's now in the company of such intellectual giants.

[GiC]

But what does that do to us who can read Latin?  If I can read every language, does it matter what language one uses to speak an insult?  It's like the classmate decades ago who thought he could get away with cussing in Spanish around a music teacher, not knowing that she also taught Spanish.   WHOOPS!

LOL...he should have used a less common language. But the theory behind such a practice is that those who were capable of reading Latin, that is to say the more educated segment of society, were not the one's that needed to be protected by censorship, only the masses needed such a protection. Of course, I oppose censorship as an absolute and diabolical evil in EVERY form, infact I would go so far as to say one of the greatest evils in the history of humanity. But if you are going to censor, don't compound your sin by eliminating due process as well, at least make it clear in some form what you are censoring.

[GiC]

Oh, and shouldn't this forum be renamed? It surely can't continue to be called "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
What would you suggest GiC? "Orthodox-Latin Discussion"? But then there's Deacon Lance. hmmmm....

I guess that could work...regardless of what liturgical rite they use, they're under a Latin Bishop, they're Latins.

I suggest "Orthodox vs Satan's Church of Pedophile Priests (SCOPPs) 

Are we going to have to add SCOPP to our list of forbidden words? LOL

[Jakub]

Boys will be boys...

james

[ozgeorge]

Boys will be boys...

james

Yep. And sometimes even grown men will be boys. I'd say "puerile", but then what do I know?

[lubeltri]

They're neither Romans nor Catholics, Latins, Westerners, Papists, etc., etc., yes, and I will even go on to say they are Christians as well...but not Roman, the Roman Church was the Imperial Church, and not Catholic, it's a local patriarchate.

We don't call ourselves "Roman" Catholics---you guys do. We are officially the "Catholic Church," not the "Roman Catholic Church." So if you want to stop calling us Roman . . . you are more than welcome! 

[ozgeorge]

We are the "Catholic Church,"

Well, if GiC has his way, you're not even that.

[lubeltri]

I can't wait until lubeltri finds out he can't be called Catholic. Perhaps I'll email him a link to this post......

Well, I had already changed my label under my name after some had intimated that I was not a Christian. I figured I wouldn't be offending anybody here with that label, even Asterikos (who has been baptized). So hopefully GiC will have nothing to complain about. . .

[Veniamin]

Well, if GiC has his way, you're not even that.

Franko-Latin Religious Organization, maybe?

[lubeltri]

Well, there's always the Whore of Babylon. How does that work, GiC?

[GiC]

Well, there's always the Whore of Babylon. How does that work, GiC?

That sounds like a lot of fun...are you trying to convert me?

[John of the North]

So hopefully GiC will have nothing to complain about. . .

Well if that is true than Fr. Seraphim was wrong and the Second Coming and Judgment does come with a warning, because surely the sky must be falling. I knew I should have been baptized on the Second.....

[Papist]

Hey guys. I have to say that I agree with luberti. Since the name of our Church is not "Roman Catholic" but Catholic, so if you stop calling us Roman Catholic, that's cool with me. If you want to call us latin Catholics, that's ok too because that is the jurisdiction to which I belong. But taking out the term Catholic is just silly. That's the name of our Church. You may not believe that we are the Catholic Church refered to in the creed, and that's fine. But our name is Catholic. You can't change our name for us. Just as my name is Christopher, and which means Christ-brearer. Even if you don't believe I am a Christ-bearer, It is still my name.
Many Blessings to all of you.

[Veniamin]

Just as my name is Christopher, and which means Christ-brearer. Even if you don't believe I am a Christ-bearer, It is still my name.

No, it's not, it's Papist.

[Αριστοκλής]

catholic church, catholic church...Rome, hmmmm, let me think...

Oh yeah, I remember it - the Formerly Orthodox Church of Rome !

Yep, Charlemagne's church...FOCOR !

[Papist]

catholic church, catholic church...Rome, hmmmm, let me think...

Oh yeah, I remember it - the Formerly Orthodox Church of Rome !

Yep, Charlemagne's church...FOCOR !

Again... not our name. 

[lubeltri]

It's just a sign of respect to call groups by the names they call themselves. That is why I try not to call Orthodox "Eastern" Orthodox (though admittedly many Orthodox see Orthodoxy=Eastern and vice versa) or "Schismatic Greeks," etc. So I certainly like to be called Catholic---no more, no less.



(MTA: D'oh! Forgot to add the trademark.)

[Αριστοκλής]

So sad...too bad for FOCOR...name's in use already, but spelled with a "K". 

And likewise I will refrain from using such terminology as "Papist Church, Graceless Heretics'' - that's only fair.

[Jakub]

I would partake of this extremely lively and pointless discussion, but instead I will drink a few cold brewski's, eat some chips and salsa and watch some baseball...late

james

[GiC]

I would partake of this extremely lively and pointless discussion, but instead I will drink a few cold brewski's, eat some chips and salsa and watch some baseball...late

james

I doubt anyone has yet to partake in this completely pointeless discussion until they have consumed more than a 'few' beers.

[Αριστοκλής]

I doubt anyone has yet to partake in this completely pointeless discussion until they have consumed more than a 'few' beers.

Still in the fast...light  headed, dizzy spells, etc.

[PeterTheAleut]

We don't call ourselves "Roman" Catholics---you guys do. We are officially the "Catholic Church," not the "Roman Catholic Church." So if you want to stop calling us Roman . . . you are more than welcome! 

Hey guys. I have to say that I agree with luberti. Since the name of our Church is not "Roman Catholic" but Catholic, so if you stop calling us Roman Catholic, that's cool with me. If you want to call us latin Catholics, that's ok too because that is the jurisdiction to which I belong. But taking out the term Catholic is just silly. That's the name of our Church. You may not believe that we are the Catholic Church refered to in the creed, and that's fine. But our name is Catholic. You can't change our name for us. Just as my name is Christopher, and which means Christ-brearer. Even if you don't believe I am a Christ-bearer, It is still my name.
Many Blessings to all of you.

"Catholic" is the name you give yourselves.  The problem we Orthodox have with calling your church the Catholic Church without any regional/local qualifier is that we also call our church the Catholic Church--some churches in our communion even use the name Catholic in their official titles (e.g., the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, or something like that).  When I'm talking to a Roman Catholic--sorry, the context of this statement requires me to use this qualifier--I'll use the term "Catholic" without any qualifiers, knowing that in interfaith dialog we almost always refer to ourselves as Eastern Orthodox, or just Orthodox.  It just makes sense.

However, when I talk with other Orthodox, which I do in most of my discussions on this forum, I will speak in language my fellow Orthodox Christians understand.  If when speaking to fellow Orthodox I speak of the Catholic Church, I don't give them reason to know whether I'm talking about the "one holy, catholic, apostolic Church" which we believe we are, or about the Roman Church.  When I speak to other Orthodox, therefore, I will speak of the Roman church as the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman church, or simply the RC church to make sure they know I'm talking about that church that calls the Pope of Rome her supreme pontiff.  Since most of my discussions on this Orthodox forum are with the faithful of the Orthodox Church (Eastern or Oriental), you're stuck with me attaching the qualifier "Roman" to that which you call the Catholic Church.

[Keble]

It's amusing in a snarky way to read this thread, because anyone with eyes to see can see that this is all sales-pitching. For a member of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA, it boils down to a choice between

"We're always right because we're all-encompassing"

and

"We're all-encompassing because we're always right"

which I would submit is not a compelling choice.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Well, to get back to the original issue, I think the church should be called the Vatican Catholic Church as the Vatican is an independent nation and is not considered to be part of Rome. Therefore, they have no right to be called Roman unless they submit to being part of the city. 

[Αριστοκλής]

Well, to get back to the original issue, I think the church should be called the Vatican Catholic Church as the Vatican is an independent nation and is not considered to be part of Rome. Therefore, they have no right to be called Roman unless they submit to being part of the city. 

Better yet, just roll them back to their original 10 dioceses around Rome (later the Papal Estates) and let them go on...

[Papist]

"Catholic" is the name you give yourselves.  The problem we Orthodox have with calling your church the Catholic Church without any regional/local qualifier is that we also call our church the Catholic Church--some churches in our communion even use the name Catholic in their official titles (e.g., the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, or something like that).  When I'm talking to a Roman Catholic--sorry, the context of this statement requires me to use this qualifier--I'll use the term "Catholic" without any qualifiers, knowing that in interfaith dialog we almost always refer to ourselves as Eastern Orthodox, or just Orthodox.  It just makes sense.

However, when I talk with other Orthodox, which I do in most of my discussions on this forum, I will speak in language my fellow Orthodox Christians understand.  If when speaking to fellow Orthodox I speak of the Catholic Church, I don't give them reason to know whether I'm talking about the "one holy, catholic, apostolic Church" which we believe we are, or about the Roman Church.  When I speak to other Orthodox, therefore, I will speak of the Roman church as the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman church, or simply the RC church to make sure they know I'm talking about that church that calls the Pope of Rome her supreme pontiff.  Since most of my discussions on this Orthodox forum are with the faithful of the Orthodox Church (Eastern or Oriental), you're stuck with me attaching the qualifier "Roman" to that which you call the Catholic Church.

Interesting that you feel that you can change the name of our church for us.

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