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Author Topic: Catholics have no right to be called Roman  (Read 10646 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2007, 02:56:15 PM »

Well, to get back to the original issue, I think the church should be called the Vatican Catholic Church as the Vatican is an independent nation and is not considered to be part of Rome. Therefore, they have no right to be called Roman unless they submit to being part of the city.  Wink

Well, the cathedral church of the Bishop of Rome, St. John Lateran, is still located in the city of Rome---though it has a status similar to that of an embassy. It was given to the Pope by Constantine the Great himself.

I would also add that the Italian Republic dates to 1946 and thus is just a wee bit newer than the papacy Wink
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2007, 03:10:28 PM »

^

Still, the Vatican has a flag and everything. It's got nice, shiny keys and a crown even. Grin
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2007, 03:50:07 PM »

That's the papal tiara, abandoned by John Paul I and his two successors. That, and the also-abandoned movable throne, were relics of Roman imperial tradition.

The sight of a pope carried on the throne and wearing the tiara with servants fanning him with ostrich feathers is smashing, but I am very glad the popes no longer do it (though admittedly the popemobile is an aesthetic step down.).

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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2007, 03:54:08 PM »

That's the papal tiara, abandoned by John Paul I and his two successors. That, and the also-abandoned movable throne, were relics of Roman imperial tradition.

The sight of a pope carried on the throne and wearing the tiara with servants fanning him with ostrich feathers is smashing, but I am very glad the popes no longer do it (though admittedly the popemobile is an aesthetic step down.).

Thanks for the information. I'm glad this thread was not a complete waste of time (though ridiculing inanity never is, in my opinion). GiC just loves to stir up controversy; I'll bet it gets his goat that there's now useful information in this thread.
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2007, 07:51:13 PM »

Interesting that you feel that you can change the name of our church for us.
Interesting that you feel that you can come to an Orthodox discussion board and dictate to us what we are to call your church.Wink

For us Orthodox to call your church simply the "Catholic Church" is an implicit agreement with you that your church is the whole and universal Church present in eternity as much as in time, for this is what we mean by the word catholic.  We simply cannot do this yet remain faithful to our Orthodox ecclesiology.  This is why we must attach a regional qualifier to the name you give your church when we talk amongst ourselves, so that we know we're talking about that church that in our eyes has confined itself to a particular terrestrial region by her deviations from truly catholic Apostolic doctrine.  In short, many Orthodox see your unqualified assignment of the name Catholic to yourselves as a pretension to all that the word catholic means, so we need to qualify your church's title by calling her the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2007, 10:49:09 PM »

This is why we must attach a regional qualifier to the name you give your church when we talk amongst ourselves, so that we know we're talking about that church that in our eyes has confined itself to a particular terrestrial region

A "regional" Church?


That includes 100-150 million each in Africa and Asia and quickly growing.


Distribution of Eastern Orthodoxy in the world by country

[-red-]Dominant religion
[-orange-] Important minority religion (over 10%)

-

You gotta try something better than that  Wink

How about "un-Orthodox Catholics"? And we'll call ourselves here "orthodox Catholics." Then everybody's happy, except GiC, of course.
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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2007, 10:51:37 PM »

I guess the "Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh" website is misnamed...maybe we named it?
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2007, 11:13:37 PM »

I guess the "Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh" website is misnamed...maybe we named it?

The official name is "Catholic Church." The official language is Latin. How many of our ecumenist American bishops are even proficient in Latin? 'Nuff said. The only time I've seen "Roman Catholic" from the Holy See is in ecumenical statements between our Church and Orthodoxy or perhaps Anglicanism. But it is not in any way what the Church as always officially called herself. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in all of its nearly 1000 pages, does not use that phrase once.

So I'm not too fond of being called it, especially considering the political/polemical nature of its origins. I'm not a Roman. I don't live in the diocese of Rome. It is true I worship according to the Roman rite, but millions of other Catholics do not. I'm fine with "Catholic in communion with Rome," though. That's a more accurate term---and a good one for you Orthodox, who are considered in some way (being "true particular churches" with "valid Eucharist"*) "Catholic not in communion with Rome."

*
Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church (Dominus Iesus, 17).

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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2007, 11:28:13 PM »

A "regional" Church?

For us Orthodox to call your church simply the "Catholic Church" is an implicit agreement with you that your church is the whole and universal Church present in eternity as much as in time, for this is what we mean by the word catholic.
A church may call the whole inhabited earth her region, but unless the faith of that church is the eternal faith of the Apostles (see my quote above), that church will never be more than just a regional church.  I'm sorry if you find these words harsh and uncharitable, but that's the attitude you put yourselves up against by asking us on an Orthodox forum to simply call you "Catholic".  Will it make you happy if we call ourselves "Eastern Orthodox", considering how the earthly institution of our church is confined for the most part to eastern Europe, northeastern Asia, the eastern half of the Mediterranean coast, and much of the northeastern corner of Africa?

Lubeltri and Papist, you can argue with us if you want, but I would counsel you to not set yourselves up for frustration, because you probably won't change the general Orthodox mindset of this Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2007, 11:34:07 PM »

Peter:

I know it ain't gonna change. Not trying to. Just being a pedant and enjoying the discussion.  You'll be free of me when the coffee shop throws me and my friends out at midnight.  Smiley

We could always do what our forefathers did: you're the Greeks, and we're the Latins.
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2007, 11:37:17 PM »

We could always do what our forefathers did: you're the Greeks, and we're the Latins.
Then what are the Melkites and Maronites? Wink
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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2007, 11:39:21 PM »

Then what are the Melkites and Maronites? Wink

I was thinking the same thing. But hey, tough luck. They lost out in the power struggle of the ancient patriarchates. Latin Rome and Greek Constantinople were the big boys.  Wink
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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2007, 11:43:03 PM »

I was thinking the same thing. But hey, tough luck. They lost out in the power struggle of the ancient patriarchates. Latin Rome and Greek Constantinople were the big boys.
Possibly, but the Melkites in the Middle East have long called themselves "Rum Katulcek"....I wonder if they were referring to New or Old "Rum"? Wink
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2007, 11:45:10 PM »

Possibly, but the Melkites in the Middle East have long called themselves "Rum Katulcek"....I wonder if they were referring to New or Old "Rum"? Wink

Old Rum is always better. A finer vintage  Wink
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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2007, 11:50:20 PM »

Old Rum is always better. A finer vintage  Wink
LOL  Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2007, 12:01:55 AM »

All attempts to find a photo of "Ratzinger Rum" or other such thing were unsuccessful. Caribbean Catholics need to be more enterprising. The Germans came up with this:



Good night. Got to go.
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« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2007, 12:03:33 AM »

Old Rum is always better. A finer vintage  Wink
But nothing beats a good Russian vodka. Wink
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« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2007, 12:10:44 AM »

Man, and to think you guys were just two happy lungs.
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« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2007, 12:11:04 AM »

O.K. I'm confused again.  On another thread I was told that "Roman" is the word that is supposed to be used for that empire whose capitol was in Constantinople.  Why is it supposed to be used for the people who are under the jurisdiction of Pope Benedict?  

I've also heard that Greeks use that word for themselves, even though Rome is not in Greece.  Is that true?  
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« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2007, 12:16:22 AM »

To add to the confusion, the Eastern Catholics (United with Rome ,to some) in places like Ukraine often call themselves "Greek Catholics"  even though they are not ethnically Greek.

For example: http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/

I guess "Greek" and "Roman" refer to a place, except when they don't, eh?  Undecided



Minor edit to change proscribed word,
Aristokles
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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2007, 12:18:03 AM »

All attempts to find a photo of "Ratzinger Rum" or other such thing were unsuccessful. Caribbean Catholics need to be more enterprising. The Germans came up with this:



Good night. Got to go.
Now that you bring this up, I remember seeing a doctored photo of Pope Benedict that gave me a really good laugh, even if it was a bit sacrilegious.  I'm now looking online for that photo.  It shows Pope Benedict holding up a chalice to bless it for Communion, except that the photo is most likely altered to superimpose a huge mug of beer where the Chalice should be.
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2007, 12:22:33 AM »

Salpy, in answer to your question, as I understand, modern Greeks may sometimes refer to their culture as "Romaios" or "Romiosyne". As for the subjects of the now-titled "Byzantine" Empire, they actually called themselves "Romaics"

Here's an interesting discussion on another list I dug up:
http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2004-October/004211.html
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2007, 12:23:39 AM »

I've also heard that Greeks use that word for themselves, even though Rome is not in Greece.  Is that true? 

There are two Romes. "Old Rome" is the Rome of Italy. "New Rome" is Constantinople. This was established in the First Ecumenical Council (3rd Canon of Constantinople). The full title of the Oecumenical Patriarch is: "Archbishop of Constantinople, the New Rome and Oecumenical Patriarch". This title still appears on his official documents and letters (of which I have two).
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« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2007, 01:09:29 AM »

There are two Romes. "Old Rome" is the Rome of Italy. "New Rome" is Constantinople. This was established in the First Ecumenical Council (3rd Canon of Constantinople). The full title of the Oecumenical Patriarch is: "Archbishop of Constantinople, the New Rome and Oecumenical Patriarch". This title still appears on his official documents and letters (of which I have two).

Then shouldn't we call the church associated with Pope Benedict the "Old Roman Catholic Church?"  Wouldn't using just the generic "Roman" imply he has jurisdiction over both Rome in Italy and Constantinople?  I know this sounds silly, but it is very confusing.  I'm probably missing something.    Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2007, 02:28:09 AM »

Sorry, but I just read a post in another thread which reminded me of something I've heard before--that Russia, or Moscow, is sometimes called "New Rome."  So of course I have more questions:

Which is the real "New Rome"--Constantinople, or Russia, or both?  By calling Pope Benedict's church by the generic "Roman," couldn't the implication be that he has jurisdiction over Rome in Italy and Constantinople and Russia?
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« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2007, 02:56:47 AM »

Sorry, but I just read a post in another thread which reminded me of something I've heard before--that Russia, or Moscow, is sometimes called "New Rome."  So of course I have more questions:

Which is the real "New Rome"--Constantinople, or Russia, or both?  By calling Pope Benedict's church by the generic "Roman," couldn't the implication be that he has jurisdiction over Rome in Italy and Constantinople and Russia?
Rome is the "Old Rome".

Constantinople dubbed itself "New Rome".

Moscow named itself the "Third Rome" (not another "New Rome").

According to Russian ecclesiopolitical theory, "a Fourth Rome there shall never be."
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« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2007, 06:00:10 AM »

Constantinople dubbed itself "New Rome".
No it didn't. The First Oecumenical Council did:
Quote
"The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome." (Canon III of the 150 Fathers)
It wasn't just something claimed by Constantinople. It was agreed by the Church.
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« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2007, 06:06:43 AM »

To add to the confusion, the Eastern Catholics (***** to some) in places like Ukraine often call themselves "Greek Catholics"  even though they are not ethnically Greek.

For example: http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/

I guess "Greek" and "Roman" refer to a place, except when they don't, eh?  Undecided


Now you get it! Roman Catholics aren't Roman (nor are they 'Catholic'). All Greek Orthodox aren't Greeks, and the RCs stole 'Greek Catholic', too - who has a better claim on that name as well, but US.

(This is fun.)  Grin
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« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2007, 09:43:12 AM »

Sorry, but I just read a post in another thread which reminded me of something I've heard before--that Russia, or Moscow, is sometimes called "New Rome."  So of course I have more questions:

Which is the real "New Rome"--Constantinople, or Russia, or both?  By calling Pope Benedict's church by the generic "Roman," couldn't the implication be that he has jurisdiction over Rome in Italy and Constantinople and Russia?

Rome=Rome

Constantinople=New Rome

Moscow=New New Rome

London=New New New Rome
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« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2007, 10:01:56 AM »

^

London has never had nearly the ecumenical authority that any of those other three had, not even at the height of its power.
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« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2007, 10:10:08 AM »

I know---but I have studied much of Elizabethan England, and in its mythology it called itself the new Rome. Quite frankly, I do not see how Moscow has any claim to the title either. Constantinople remains the "New" Rome, even if it is almost completely devoid of Christians.
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« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2007, 10:26:23 AM »

^

I agree completely.
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« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2007, 11:42:26 AM »

Rome=Rome

Constantinople=New Rome

Moscow=New New Rome

London=New New New Rome

Whatever happened to NYC (I would say DC, but I like NY better  Grin)?
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« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2007, 01:37:38 PM »

No it didn't. The First Oecumenical Council did:It wasn't just something claimed by Constantinople. It was agreed by the Church.
I stand corrected. Embarrassed  Thank you for setting me straight, George.
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« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2007, 01:39:01 PM »

Whatever happened to NYC (I would say DC, but I like NY better  Grin)?
I would say that NYC has become the UNRome. Cheesy
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« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2007, 01:39:25 PM »

NYC would be New New New Babylon or Fourth Babylon (after Old Babylon was moved to New Babylon; Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and then Rome became the Third Babylon by the decree of Martin Luther.)

Really - Roman continuity existed (and exists) in the West. Even in England, to be sure. The Founding Fathers of America were conscious of being in that continuity. (And I like DC better than NYC. Still better, Richmond or Montgomery. Cheesy )
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« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2007, 01:40:49 PM »

^

Ah, the ancient capital of my fair conquered land. Davis lives!
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« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2007, 02:04:59 PM »

Who is in charge of enforcing the minimal rule of alcoholic beverages to be consumed to partake of this discussion ?

james
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« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2007, 02:08:03 PM »

^

Anyone who was is too wasted now to continue.
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« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2007, 03:14:58 PM »

I think all of that had something to do with the idea of Christendom, specifically the Christian monarch. With the Fall of Constantinople, the only reigning 'Eastern Roman' monarch became the Russian czars (note, not Moscow, but Russian.) This goes along with the fact that 'Russian Orthodox' does not refer to 'Russki', ie Russian ethnicity, but Russiye - under the Russian Imperial crown. Now, that's been over about 90 years.

With Rome (Old Rome) the last Roman Emperor abdicated back in the 19th c. (last of the Holy Roman Emperors.)

So - there are no Christian monarchs ruling over vast areas today than Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland (known in England as Queen Elizabeth II.) She is, of course, officially Anglican (of a respectable High Church English Use variety), though Presbyterian when in Scotland.

I think that only leaves:

Catholic kings: Albert II of Belgium, Furst Hans-Adam II of Liechtenstein, Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg, Prince Albert II of Monaco, King Juan Carlos I of Spain.

Protestant kings and queens: Margrethe II of Denmark, Koningen Beatrix of the Netherlands, Norges Konge Harald V, Konung Carl XVI Gustaf, King George Tupou V of Tonga (ie, Lutherans and Methodists.)

Of those, only Spain and Denmark have lands beyond their home countries (Juan Carlos is also the titular crusader 'King of Jerusalem'.) Only the British monarchy has any sense of being Christian with rule over large areas of the world. And, so far, restoration of Orthodox monarchs has been - well, 'duds'.

All the rest  of the world monarchs are Muslim, Animists or some Eastern religion.

I suppose Russia has the best chance of restoring a monarchy. The Greeks - little to no chance (their last King was no Emperor, and most surviving claimants to descend from the Emperors have competing claims - and are usually either Roman Catholics or Muslims.)

That's a fun little are of interest to obsess over...
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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2007, 10:47:12 PM »

They're neither Romans nor Catholics, Latins, Westerners, Papists, etc., etc., yes, and I will even go on to say they are Christians as well...but not Roman, the Roman Church was the Imperial Church, and not Catholic, it's a local patriarchate.
FYI
The ancient name is the Catholic church.
Actually all cardinals are given the title priest of titular church in Rome continuing the practice that the clergy of Rome elect their Bishop. So they become part of the clergy of the Roman church. (the diocese of Rome)

Roman Catholic was originally a pejorative term to distinguish them from the new Anglican church.

Papist, as well as papalism)  is also generally considered an insult. Very brave of Papist to take that as his moniker!

The papacy is the office of the pope. Believe it or not there is more to Catholicism than the pope.
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ChristusDominus
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« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2009, 04:04:48 AM »

Oh, and shouldn't this forum be renamed? It surely can't continue to be called "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
What would you suggest GiC? "Orthodox-Latin Discussion"? But then there's Deacon Lance. hmmmm....

I suggest "Orthodox vs Satan's Church of Pedophile Priests (SCOPPs)  Cool
This has to be the reason for this guy being banned, I hope.
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« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2009, 12:42:00 PM »

Sorry, but I just read a post in another thread which reminded me of something I've heard before--that Russia, or Moscow, is sometimes called "New Rome."  So of course I have more questions:

Which is the real "New Rome"--Constantinople, or Russia, or both?  By calling Pope Benedict's church by the generic "Roman," couldn't the implication be that he has jurisdiction over Rome in Italy and Constantinople and Russia?
And so he does.  Grin
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« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2009, 12:49:10 PM »

Oh, and shouldn't this forum be renamed? It surely can't continue to be called "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
What would you suggest GiC? "Orthodox-Latin Discussion"? But then there's Deacon Lance. hmmmm....

I suggest "Orthodox vs Satan's Church of Pedophile Priests (SCOPPs)  Cool

This has to be the reason for this guy being banned, I hope.

Why resurrect this old thread?

Anyway, yes, anti-RC vitriol was involved in the decision.
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« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2009, 12:49:45 PM »

Sorry, but I just read a post in another thread which reminded me of something I've heard before--that Russia, or Moscow, is sometimes called "New Rome."  So of course I have more questions:

Which is the real "New Rome"--Constantinople, or Russia, or both?  By calling Pope Benedict's church by the generic "Roman," couldn't the implication be that he has jurisdiction over Rome in Italy and Constantinople and Russia?
And so he does.  Grin

Actually, the one way he is Roman in the old sense of the word is that he has the pagan title "Pontifex Maximus" the office of the head of the state religion of Rome (given up by the emperor Gratian to Pope Damasus).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 12:50:55 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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