Author Topic: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council  (Read 619 times)

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« on: June 28, 2016, 12:00:24 PM »
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/24/lgbt-community-pens-open-letter-to-the-greek-orthodox-church/

Quote
Many LGBT Orthodox Christians have been thrown out of their parishes, barred from the Holy Communion, required to undergo conversion therapy with harmful effects on their personality, compelled to choose monastic life for which they had neither predisposition nor vocation, or forced to enter into heterosexual marriages and, through this, bring pain to more people (their spouses, children, and families). Often, these experiences of violence or imposed self-destruction are making Orthodox people angry with God and in some cases lead them out of the Church altogether. Some Orthodox LGBT persons, unable to hear God’s voice clearly, being confused, drained of strength and the will to persevere, and unsupported by their pastors, communities, and even families, take their own lives...

...We, your LGBT Orthodox children, believe that, though all human sexuality can be a vehicle for sin, in essence human sexuality is a gift from God, part of his good creation. We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities, not for the sinful misuse of either of these things.

We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations. We are aware that our understanding of Holy Scripture and Orthodox theology as enabling the harmonious reconciliation of our sexual and religious identities may seem audacious—but we ask you to hear us out.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 01:02:34 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 01:06:32 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Give this man a medal.
Death to the world.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 01:24:19 PM »
we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities, not for the sinful misuse of either of these things.

So are they advocating for fluid and nonbinary gender identities? That gender identity is an artificial construct, or that it can literally change from day to day?

I can just imagine their Tumblr posts now:

Parishioner: "Father, bless."
Priest: "How dare you assume to know my gender identity and preferred pronouns you cisgender bigot?"
The rest of the parish applauded the priest, and every person donated $100 that day.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 01:24:54 PM by Nephi »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 01:45:11 PM »
So are they advocating...that gender identity is an artificial construct, or that it can literally change from day to day?
I don't think they are.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 01:45:37 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 02:27:21 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 02:42:18 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.
The letter reveals
Quote
We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities...We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations.
that these are not them.

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 02:45:25 PM »
Why are we so hasty to say that the Church must enter in dialog with lobbies that seek to destroy and distort our traditions?
Death to the world.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 02:46:00 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.

Hogwash they are basically saying in this letter, quote " human sexuality is a gift from God" that doesn't sound like they want to repent, rather they want it their way concerning the historic Church teaching, and traditions on Homosexuality.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 02:46:47 PM »
Why are we so hasty to say that the Church must enter in dialog with lobbies that seek to destroy and distort our traditions?

Especially since the The Episcopalians will take them i, seems like these folks want to change Orthodoxy..
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:49:24 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 02:55:19 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.
The letter reveals
Quote
We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities...We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations.
that these are not them.

I don't know about the latter quote but there's nothing wrong with the first one. There's no reason to take a knee-jerk reaction against each and everyone who might suggest that LGBT Christians might face actual discrimination too. That kind of discrimination that is actually against the Church's teaching. And besides addressing a false teaching of too liberal moral theology the first must be addressed too. As with all Orthodox faith that might include the pan-Orthodox level too.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Bryan Paul

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 04:29:16 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.
The letter reveals
Quote
We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities...We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations.
that these are not them.

I don't know about the latter quote but there's nothing wrong with the first one. There's no reason to take a knee-jerk reaction against each and everyone who might suggest that LGBT Christians might face actual discrimination too. That kind of discrimination that is actually against the Church's teaching. And besides addressing a false teaching of too liberal moral theology the first must be addressed too. As with all Orthodox faith that might include the pan-Orthodox level too.
As pertains to the Eucharist, I am under the impression that it is the Church's (and, in particular, the priest's) job to be lovingly discriminatory. As pertains to everything else, it is the Church's (and, in particular, our) job to be indiscriminately loving.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 04:30:25 PM »
So are they advocating...that gender identity is an artificial construct, or that it can literally change from day to day?
I don't think they are.

I don't know about European LGBT movements, but the American LGBT movement most certainly does include nonbinary and fluid genders in its fold, ipso facto including those that claim that it's a construct and/or can change fluidly.

So unless by "gender identities" they exclusively meant binary transgenders and cisgenders, then they are advocating those positions alongside the rest.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 04:31:23 PM by Nephi »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/24/lgbt-community-pens-open-letter-to-the-greek-orthodox-church/

Quote
Many LGBT Orthodox Christians have been thrown out of their parishes, barred from the Holy Communion, required to undergo conversion therapy with harmful effects on their personality, compelled to choose monastic life for which they had neither predisposition nor vocation, or forced to enter into heterosexual marriages and, through this, bring pain to more people (their spouses, children, and families). Often, these experiences of violence or imposed self-destruction are making Orthodox people angry with God and in some cases lead them out of the Church altogether. Some Orthodox LGBT persons, unable to hear God’s voice clearly, being confused, drained of strength and the will to persevere, and unsupported by their pastors, communities, and even families, take their own lives...

...We, your LGBT Orthodox children, believe that, though all human sexuality can be a vehicle for sin, in essence human sexuality is a gift from God, part of his good creation. We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities, not for the sinful misuse of either of these things.

We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations. We are aware that our understanding of Holy Scripture and Orthodox theology as enabling the harmonious reconciliation of our sexual and religious identities may seem audacious—but we ask you to hear us out.

Why are we giving the generous title "Orthodox gay community" to what the letter shows to be one man (Mikhail Cherniak) of Orthodox roots who works for a European activist group of non-Orthodox gay church-groups? This is a non-story, and if we make it a story we are giving Mr. Cherniak what he could barely hope for.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 05:28:42 PM »
... but the American LGBT movement most certainly does include nonbinary and fluid genders in its fold, ipso facto including those that claim that it's a construct and/or can change fluidly.

There are certain folks pushing the homosexual community to embrace gender activists, and institutions such as schools certainly lump them all together; however, it is far from a settled fact that most gays are happy with this or agree it is fair or useful. It's a very controversial matter.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 05:36:09 PM »
... but the American LGBT movement most certainly does include nonbinary and fluid genders in its fold, ipso facto including those that claim that it's a construct and/or can change fluidly.

There are certain folks pushing the homosexual community to embrace gender activists, and institutions such as schools certainly lump them all together; however, it is far from a settled fact that most gays are happy with this or agree it is fair or useful. It's a very controversial matter.

Agreed. It seems odd to me how the LGBT movement as a whole seems to teach that sexuality and gender identity are two separate and unrelated things, yet it itself is the two combined.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

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Save those who with fervent desire implore Thy grace;
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Who ever call upon Thine intercession.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 05:57:51 PM »
... but the American LGBT movement most certainly does include nonbinary and fluid genders in its fold, ipso facto including those that claim that it's a construct and/or can change fluidly.

There are certain folks pushing the homosexual community to embrace gender activists, and institutions such as schools certainly lump them all together; however, it is far from a settled fact that most gays are happy with this or agree it is fair or useful. It's a very controversial matter.

Agreed. It seems odd to me how the LGBT movement as a whole seems to teach that sexuality and gender identity are two separate and unrelated things, yet it itself is the two combined.

"Minority" communities have been increasingly linked together. Google search intersectionality.

It produces the strangeness where feminist academics on college campuses will awkwardly defend female circumcision in Islamic communities. Mutually contradictory and otherwise opposed lifestyles and ideologies being linked together in coalitions of sorts based on real or perceived marginalization.

It's the status quo for sure, but I have been recently exposed to a minority within the gay community that opposes such stuff. They however usually don't identify as part of the LGBT movement either.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:58:26 PM by Nephi »

Offline Elisha

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 06:43:44 PM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Give this man a medal.

+1

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2016, 07:54:42 PM »
Isnt the author of this letter Jewish?  If so, why is a Jewish person so co cerned with Orthodoxy's teachings and practice?

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2016, 11:10:13 PM »
Isnt the author of this letter Jewish?  If so, why is a Jewish person so co cerned with Orthodoxy's teachings and practice?

Jesus certainly was.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Do Thou, O Sovereign lady,
By Thy joy-bestowing honorable Icon "Queen of All,"
Save those who with fervent desire implore Thy grace;
Deliver from afflictions those who run to Thee;
From all dangers do Thou guard Thy flock,
Who ever call upon Thine intercession.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2016, 02:07:12 AM »
Isnt the author of this letter Jewish?  If so, why is a Jewish person so co cerned with Orthodoxy's teachings and practice?

Jesus certainly was.

That's helpful.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2016, 02:58:09 AM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2016, 08:29:43 AM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.

Isa didn't misquote anything.  Everything he posted was word for word in order.  Now, the latter part of the sentence which you included that he didn't really didn't add much except the usual exhortations of respect and different experiences and blah, blah, blah.

What does a person's life experience have to do with God's revelation to His Church?  Does someone's experience trump that?  Also, whenever someone from an LGBT advocacy group wants dialogue with respect, I have found that it is often disingenuous. They don't want dialogue, they don't want conversation. They want the people with whom they have the "conversation" to shut up and to change their position and that is what constitutes "respect." 

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2016, 11:07:36 AM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.

Isa didn't misquote anything.  Everything he posted was word for word in order.  Now, the latter part of the sentence which you included that he didn't really didn't add much except the usual exhortations of respect and different experiences and blah, blah, blah.

What does a person's life experience have to do with God's revelation to His Church?  Does someone's experience trump that?  Also, whenever someone from an LGBT advocacy group wants dialogue with respect, I have found that it is often disingenuous. They don't want dialogue, they don't want conversation. They want the people with whom they have the "conversation" to shut up and to change their position and that is what constitutes "respect."

+1
The Church doesn't need to do anything more than it already has. Condem the sin, and urge the sinner to repent lovingly. Which, in my opinion, is something that the Church has done. There may be some who are less than loving but they are only a minority. It would be useless for the Church to engage in this sort of discussion. The LGBT movement is uncompromising and stubborn. It will not change and it won't go away. The Church cannot impact this in another way than continuing to teach what it teaches and preach how it preaches, and to let gay people who are interested in the church enter on the grounds that the must avoid sexual misconduct. This is not a difficult thing to ask. It is just that our culture as a whole teaches that the only way to be happy is to do what you want, and to bow to no authority. The LGBT movement is a part of that culture, and shares its views. The Church can, and has, welcomed gay individuals, but it would be unreasonable to expect even a large part of the LGBT movement, let alone all of the movement, to submit to the Church.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Do Thou, O Sovereign lady,
By Thy joy-bestowing honorable Icon "Queen of All,"
Save those who with fervent desire implore Thy grace;
Deliver from afflictions those who run to Thee;
From all dangers do Thou guard Thy flock,
Who ever call upon Thine intercession.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2016, 11:21:08 AM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.
indeed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2016, 11:28:15 AM »
You don't heal by trying to convince the hospital that you are not sick.

Which not all LGTB Orthodox Christians don't want to do. Some might want to be treated on par with all the other sinners. Some might actually actually accept the Church's teaching on marriage,  sexuality and gender and still face discrimination.
The letter reveals
Quote
We want to be clear, therefore, that we are advocating for all people in their variety of sexual orientations and gender identities...We believe that Holy Scripture and the Orthodox Tradition offer many examples of consolation and blessing for the diverse reality of human sexuality, which includes LGBT persons and their relations.
that these are not them.

I don't know about the latter quote but there's nothing wrong with the first one. There's no reason to take a knee-jerk reaction against each and everyone who might suggest that LGBT Christians might face actual discrimination too. That kind of discrimination that is actually against the Church's teaching. And besides addressing a false teaching of too liberal moral theology the first must be addressed too. As with all Orthodox faith that might include the pan-Orthodox level too.
To preach that male and female are the only gender identities God created and His Church blesses in heterosexual marriage (redundant), the only sexual orientation He established and His Church blesses, is not discrimination. We have no use for "dialogue with"-i.e. be lectured and bullied by-those who claim it is.

Like people, the Church has reflexes for a reason. To act before it is too late.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 11:29:06 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 10:08:41 AM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.

Isa didn't misquote anything.  Everything he posted was word for word in order.  Now, the latter part of the sentence which you included that he didn't really didn't add much except the usual exhortations of respect and different experiences and blah, blah, blah.

What does a person's life experience have to do with God's revelation to His Church?  Does someone's experience trump that?  Also, whenever someone from an LGBT advocacy group wants dialogue with respect, I have found that it is often disingenuous. They don't want dialogue, they don't want conversation. They want the people with whom they have the "conversation" to shut up and to change their position and that is what constitutes "respect."

+1
The Church doesn't need to do anything more than it already has. Condem the sin, and urge the sinner to repent lovingly. Which, in my opinion, is something that the Church has done. There may be some who are less than loving but they are only a minority. It would be useless for the Church to engage in this sort of discussion. The LGBT movement is uncompromising and stubborn. It will not change and it won't go away. The Church cannot impact this in another way than continuing to teach what it teaches and preach how it preaches, and to let gay people who are interested in the church enter on the grounds that the must avoid sexual misconduct. This is not a difficult thing to ask. It is just that our culture as a whole teaches that the only way to be happy is to do what you want, and to bow to no authority. The LGBT movement is a part of that culture, and shares its views. The Church can, and has, welcomed gay individuals, but it would be unreasonable to expect even a large part of the LGBT movement, let alone all of the movement, to submit to the Church.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 02:04:55 PM »

Btw, this is interesting:
Quote
Even though LGBT people are quite often presented as being a group external to the Orthodox Church, the European Forum of LGBT Groups can testify that, in fact, the proportion of people of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender identity is the same within the Orthodox Church as it is outside....We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners
<5%=/=>95%, not to mention the agenda of the infinitesimal community versus the whole of Christian Tradition.

That was a clever move! Misquote the original letter to throw the writers into a bad light. To give the bits ialmisry omits from that last sentence:
Quote
We want this conversation to be a dialogue, in which both sides treat each other as equal partners, with respect, on account of different knowledge and experience, listening to each other and answering each other’s questions. 

It would appear that even some who post here are too occupied with shouting heretic to listen.

Isa didn't misquote anything.  Everything he posted was word for word in order.  Now, the latter part of the sentence which you included that he didn't really didn't add much except the usual exhortations of respect and different experiences and blah, blah, blah.

What does a person's life experience have to do with God's revelation to His Church?  Does someone's experience trump that?  Also, whenever someone from an LGBT advocacy group wants dialogue with respect, I have found that it is often disingenuous. They don't want dialogue, they don't want conversation. They want the people with whom they have the "conversation" to shut up and to change their position and that is what constitutes "respect."

+1
The Church doesn't need to do anything more than it already has. Condem the sin, and urge the sinner to repent lovingly. Which, in my opinion, is something that the Church has done. There may be some who are less than loving but they are only a minority. It would be useless for the Church to engage in this sort of discussion. The LGBT movement is uncompromising and stubborn. It will not change and it won't go away. The Church cannot impact this in another way than continuing to teach what it teaches and preach how it preaches, and to let gay people who are interested in the church enter on the grounds that the must avoid sexual misconduct. This is not a difficult thing to ask. It is just that our culture as a whole teaches that the only way to be happy is to do what you want, and to bow to no authority. The LGBT movement is a part of that culture, and shares its views. The Church can, and has, welcomed gay individuals, but it would be unreasonable to expect even a large part of the LGBT movement, let alone all of the movement, to submit to the Church.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Oooh! Quoting from GoT!  Good for you.  Because that settles the argument.

Offline mike

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 05:14:46 PM »
I do not want to take part in the discussion but since I personally know Misha I think I need to defend him against some slanders and false accusations here:

Why are we giving the generous title "Orthodox gay community" to what the letter shows to be one man (Mikhail Cherniak) of Orthodox roots who works for a European activist group of non-Orthodox gay church-groups? This is a non-story, and if we make it a story we are giving Mr. Cherniak what he could barely hope for.

Misha comes from an Orthodox family that had a relationship to religious groups in Russia connected to Fr. Men and Bp. sigrist among others. I don't know who exactly his parents are but I remember them visiting Poland on the occasion on some binational religious event or something. Misha himself used to be an Orthodox activist in Russia ending up as a board member of syndesmos (deputy chairman IIRC). He is not your average Joe and is pretty known among Orthodox circles.

I do not know whether he works for an "a European activist group of non-Orthodox gay church-groups". Last time I checked he worked for some Russian translation center in Poland or something. Nevertheless, choir conducting seems to be his main interest and career direction. He graduated a music university and even occasionally conducts a choir in the church I used to attend.

Isnt the author of this letter Jewish?  If so, why is a Jewish person so co cerned with Orthodoxy's teachings and practice?

As I wrote above, he comes from an Orthodox family that has been keeping the faith at the times it was not supported by Russian state. His family however has some Jewish ancestry.

I find that amusing people are so concerned about breaking the VII commandment while enthusiastically breaking the IX.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:32:12 PM by mike »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 07:03:49 PM »
What, of any of that, makes him amount to "the Orthodox Gay Community"?

This is a letter written by a guy (and co-signed by a European gay churches forum). Lots of guys of varying levels of relationship to Orthodoxy have lots of opinions about the Council.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 07:20:43 PM »
Orthodox need to have a broader discussion of ethics in general, particularly how the Church is to relate to marginalized groups, and how the often highly monastic ideals of the church should relate to individuals seeking salvation in that context. 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:21:20 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 07:30:14 PM »
Orthodox need to have a broader discussion of ethics in general, particularly how the Church is to relate to marginalized groups, and how the often highly monastic ideals of the church should relate to individuals seeking salvation in that context.

I think you may have just answered your own question.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 07:34:28 PM »
Orthodox need to have a broader discussion of ethics in general, particularly how the Church is to relate to marginalized groups, and how the often highly monastic ideals of the church should relate to individuals seeking salvation in that context.
It probably goes something like: Through the prayers of St. Anastasia, who lived in a cave as Anastasius the eunuch, and all the holy Fathers and Mothers, have mercy on us, O Christ!
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 08:52:46 PM »
It probably goes something like: Through the prayers of St. Anastasia, who lived in a cave as Anastasius the eunuch, and all the holy Fathers and Mothers, have mercy on us, O Christ!

So 5% of all people, no matter how psychologically unfit and lacking a true calling, should just become celibate monks and nuns?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:53:36 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM »
It probably goes something like: Through the prayers of St. Anastasia, who lived in a cave as Anastasius the eunuch, and all the holy Fathers and Mothers, have mercy on us, O Christ!

So 5% of all people, no matter how psychologically unfit and lacking a true calling, should just become celibate monks and nuns?

No.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #35 on: Today at 12:19:42 AM »
What does a person's life experience have to do with God's revelation to His Church?  Does someone's experience trump that?  Also, whenever someone from an LGBT advocacy group wants dialogue with respect, I have found that it is often disingenuous. They don't want dialogue, they don't want conversation. They want the people with whom they have the "conversation" to shut up and to change their position and that is what constitutes "respect."

For a minute there I thought those bolded sentences must have been lifted from a discussion on the Orthodox position on reunification of the churches.  ;)

Never ceases to amaze me how people can be so certain they know exactly what some other "they" wants.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Gay Community Pens Open Letter to the Council
« Reply #36 on: Today at 12:32:18 AM »
What, of any of that, makes him amount to "the Orthodox Gay Community"?

Did it cross your mind that many gay Orthodox might be afraid to sign a public letter like this one? Until that can be done without fear of reprisal, who's to say how representative of the "community" this letter is?