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Author Topic: Are 'Old Believers' in Communion with MP??  (Read 374 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mr. Lost
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« on: Yesterday at 07:42:49 AM »

As my User Name states my name as 'Mr. Lost',  I still truly am. After many decades away from my baptismal Church,  I am trying to find my place in Russian Orthodoxy. Lately, I've been trying to research the 'Old Believers'.  Emails sent, have yielded no response to my questions. Even though the closest parish is a thousand miles away from me, I would fly up on a monthly basis for services.  This, of course, would happen if I knew they were not in communion with the MP.
Thank you in advance.

Mr. Lost
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Bob2
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« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 09:21:47 AM »

This, of course, would happen if I knew they were not in communion with the MP.

I'm not really sure what you are asking, are you only interested if they are NOT in communion with the MP?  There are different groups of Old Believers some are part of ROCOR which is in communion with the MP. Some are there own little separate group cut-off from the rest of world Orthodoxy, it is important to distinguish between Old Calandarists and those on the Old Calendar.

What was your baptismal church?
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Minnesotan
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« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 09:47:16 AM »

This, of course, would happen if I knew they were not in communion with the MP.

I'm not really sure what you are asking, are you only interested if they are NOT in communion with the MP?  There are different groups of Old Believers some are part of ROCOR which is in communion with the MP. Some are there own little separate group cut-off from the rest of world Orthodoxy, it is important to distinguish between Old Calandarists and those on the Old Calendar.

Also, Old Calendarists and Old Believers are not the same thing. The MP and ROCOR use the Old Calendar (but are not considered "Old Calendarist" because they are in communion with churches that use the New Calendar). Groups designated as "Old Calendarists" are mostly non-Russian (Greeks especially) and they split off at a much later date. The Russian Old Believer split was in the 17th century. Russian Old Believers who have come back into communion with mainstream Orthodoxy but still use the Old Rite are known as "Edinovertsy".
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mike
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« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 09:52:51 AM »

There are about 30 canonical Old Rite communities. They are as fringe as Western Rite and are more an Internet phenomena than a real issue.
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Agabus
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« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 12:21:46 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.
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« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 01:12:24 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.


It's baptism, the same as any real Orthodox Church. Just without Chrismation.
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« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 01:37:00 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.


It's baptism, the same as any real Orthodox Church. Just without Chrismation.

Thanks.
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« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 01:56:12 PM »

This, of course, would happen if I knew they were not in communion with the MP.

I'm not really sure what you are asking, are you only interested if they are NOT in communion with the MP?  There are different groups of Old Believers some are part of ROCOR which is in communion with the MP. Some are there own little separate group cut-off from the rest of world Orthodoxy, it is important to distinguish between Old Calandarists and those on the Old Calendar.

What was your baptismal church?

There are also some Old Believers in the MP itself who are in communion with it. I think that the MP relatively recently (last 30 years) declared that the Old Believers could be in communion with them. But many Old Believers still remain in schism because they still reject some of the MP practices.
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Mr. Lost
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« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 07:09:09 PM »

Thank YOU for your serious replies!  My baptismal church was ROCA 1953. The parish still exists but in 2007, they joined what I will not, nor would've my reposed parents. They lived both the bolsheviks and stalin. I've spent a number of years trying to find out as much as I can about present day ROCA (non-Agafangel) under Vitaly, ROAC and RTOC, yet something has not taken me 101% ... yet.  My biggest problem lies with apostolic succession within these three groups.  Seems like most Bishops got their posts in secret.  It's that 'secret' thing that drives me nuts.
Hence, the interest into the 'Old Believers' ... with the priest version.
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Minnesotan
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« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:34:32 PM »

Thank YOU for your serious replies!  My baptismal church was ROCA 1953. The parish still exists but in 2007, they joined what I will not, nor would've my reposed parents. They lived both the bolsheviks and stalin. I've spent a number of years trying to find out as much as I can about present day ROCA (non-Agafangel) under Vitaly, ROAC and RTOC, yet something has not taken me 101% ... yet.  My biggest problem lies with apostolic succession within these three groups.  Seems like most Bishops got their posts in secret.  It's that 'secret' thing that drives me nuts.
Hence, the interest into the 'Old Believers' ... with the priest version.

Why limit yourself to just Russian parishes? If, as your e-mail address implies, you live in the USA, then Russian parishes are far from the only option. If it's just the MP you don't like, wouldn't it make more sense to just join a different jurisdiction rather than joining a tiny sect that's not in communion with anyone else and that you have to drive five hours to get to?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:34:44 PM by Minnesotan » Logged
Hawkeye
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« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 08:35:17 PM »

Thank YOU for your serious replies!  My baptismal church was ROCA 1953. The parish still exists but in 2007, they joined what I will not, nor would've my reposed parents. They lived both the bolsheviks and stalin. I've spent a number of years trying to find out as much as I can about present day ROCA (non-Agafangel) under Vitaly, ROAC and RTOC, yet something has not taken me 101% ... yet.  My biggest problem lies with apostolic succession within these three groups.  Seems like most Bishops got their posts in secret.  It's that 'secret' thing that drives me nuts.
Hence, the interest into the 'Old Believers' ... with the priest version.

Problem is, joining any of the Old Rite hierarchies would be as much, if not more, of a betrayal of ROCA principles as union with the MP might have been. It would mean rejecting 300 years of Orthodox history. It would mean that the the church you were baptized into was never the Church to begin with, nor even some tenuous part of it.

As to apostolic succession, you're likewise not likely to find anything satisfactory among them. All of the Old Rite hierarchies have been like parasites, stealing bishops and priests to establish themselves when they could not produce their own. The two bodies who were not products of schism between themselves are the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy and the Novozybovskaya Hierarchy, with the former being established by a deposed Greek bishop received by laymen while the latter was established by a Russian bishop who chrismated himself into a church he didn't already belong to.

Whatever the solution to your problem may be, it's certainly not among the Old Believers, not even the priested ones.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:35:33 PM by Hawkeye » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 08:36:04 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.


It's baptism, the same as any real Orthodox Church. Just without Chrismation.

Who baptizes them, if there are no priests? Can any layman or -woman do it? And are baptisms still regarded as sacramental by the priestless sects, or do they think it's now only a hollow symbol since there isn't a priesthood anymore (according to them).

I don't see how the priestless sects square their beliefs with Matthew 16:18, anyway. Their attitude is basically the same as that of the radical Protestants and Anabaptists who believe in a "great apostasy". There are a lot of intriguing similarities between many of those Russian sects, and the Anabaptist and Amish groups that arose in the west. The only difference being that the Russians initially objected to reforms imposed by the church authorities, whereas the westerners wanted to reform the church against the will of the authorities. But they ended up having a lot in common nonetheless. A theological version of the horseshoe theory, if you ask me.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:42:16 PM by Minnesotan » Logged
mike
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« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 08:39:02 PM »

Any layman/woman can baptize. In the Orthodox Church at least.
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Hawkeye
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« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 08:44:40 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.


It's baptism, the same as any real Orthodox Church. Just without Chrismation.

Who baptizes them, if there are no priests? Can any layman or -woman do it? And are baptisms still regarded as sacramental by the priestless sects, or do they think it's now only a hollow symbol since there isn't a priesthood anymore (according to them).

While normally a priest would baptize, in case of an emergency it's permissible for a layperson to do so. Priestless Old Believers then simply view themselves as being in a perpetual state of emergency.

Baptism is indeed, at least among most groups, still considered sacramental.
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« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 08:51:45 PM »

I remember your previous posts.

Your best bet for what you’re seeking is going to be to pull the trigger and pick a catacomb church nearby. (Not that this is my advice, just keeping in mind what you are seeking.) The Old Believers who aren’t a part of ROCOR-MP aren’t likely to recognize you as Orthodox without you undergoing whatever their rite of initiation is (which, if they’re the priestless sects, I honestly don’t know what it is).

Most of the catacomb types acknowledge each other in some way.


It's baptism, the same as any real Orthodox Church. Just without Chrismation.

Who baptizes them, if there are no priests? Can any layman or -woman do it? And are baptisms still regarded as sacramental by the priestless sects, or do they think it's now only a hollow symbol since there isn't a priesthood anymore (according to them).

While normally a priest would baptize, in case of an emergency it's permissible for a layperson to do so.
Priestless Old Believers then simply view themselves as being in a perpetual state of emergency.

Baptism is indeed, at least among most groups, still considered sacramental.

I see; I think I actually did read that somewhere, but forgot about it for some reason.
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Bob2
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« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 09:18:52 PM »


Why limit yourself to just Russian parishes? If, as your e-mail address implies, you live in the USA, then Russian parishes are far from the only option. If it's just the MP you don't like, wouldn't it make more sense to just join a different jurisdiction rather than joining a tiny sect that's not in communion with anyone else and that you have to drive five hours to get to?

Probably because all other EO churches are also in communion with Moscow, which once operated in collusion with  "godless regime".
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