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Author Topic: Question For Chalcedonians  (Read 661 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheLoveOfTheTruth
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« Reply #90 on: Today at 09:44:34 AM »

Where did I ever say one is saved insomuch that one cannot give up one's salvation? ("Give up" is probably a better term than "loose")

Tony
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« Reply #91 on: Today at 09:46:25 AM »

Where did I ever say one is saved insomuch that one cannot give up one's salvation? ("Give up" is probably a better term than "loose")

Tony

OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).
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ΔΙΚΑΙΩΝ δὲ ψυχαὶ ἐν χειρὶ Θεοῦ
Justorum animæ  in manu Dei sunt
Праведных не души в руце Божией
TheLoveOfTheTruth
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« Reply #92 on: Today at 09:47:11 AM »

I guess there's a misunderstanding here, because you're very clearly saying that salvation can be lost if you do not obey the ship rules.

I think so.

Tony
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TheLoveOfTheTruth
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« Reply #93 on: Today at 09:48:19 AM »

I'll get back to you, I have to go now.

Tony
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #94 on: Today at 09:50:35 AM »

Salvation is not something that we posess and can lose, it is something that we continually strive for throughout our life. Just to take your Ephesians verse. Paul does not say "for by grace were you saved", he says "for by grace ARE you saved". Salvation is in the present tense, because it is aways happening.

Trisagion,

As per my understanding of the Greek it literally says, "By grace you are having been saved." Meaning, by grace you exist in the state of having (already) been saved.

Tony
I am not at all a Greek scholar, so perhaps someone else can give a better answer, but the Greek word is ἐστε which is the second person plural present indicative of εἰμί (the word for "I am").  The word for "saved" is σεσῳσμένοι which translates to "save, resue heal". The actual literal translation would be "For by grace you (plural) are (present tense) rescued through faith..."
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
TheLoveOfTheTruth
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« Reply #95 on: Today at 11:11:58 AM »

Salvation is not something that we posess and can lose, it is something that we continually strive for throughout our life. Just to take your Ephesians verse. Paul does not say "for by grace were you saved", he says "for by grace ARE you saved". Salvation is in the present tense, because it is aways happening.

Trisagion,

As per my understanding of the Greek it literally says, "By grace you are having been saved." Meaning, by grace you exist in the state of having (already) been saved.

Tony
I am not at all a Greek scholar, so perhaps someone else can give a better answer, but the Greek word is ἐστε which is the second person plural present indicative of εἰμί (the word for "I am").  The word for "saved" is σεσῳσμένοι which translates to "save, resue heal". The actual literal translation would be "For by grace you (plural) are (present tense) rescued through faith..."

I'm not an expert in Greek neither, not by a long shot, but most of the super literal translations say, "You are having been saved."

Quote
"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,"--Ephesians 2:8 YLT

I also spoke about this verse with someone who is an expert of Greek recently (Tim Warner) and he told me the same thing. As Young has it here he says that is the literal translation, but it doesn't really sound right in English so to sound good and yet be as literal as possible at the same time, he translates it as "have been saved" in his translation of the NT. Thus when it is translated "are saved" in English, it means you are already saved right now.

Plus you also forgot to mention John who says of the saints that he was writing to that they possessed eternal life already while still enduring. And there are other verses that speak of believers already being saved before the end, those were just examples.

Tony
« Last Edit: Today at 11:13:09 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth » Logged
TheLoveOfTheTruth
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« Reply #96 on: Today at 11:34:13 AM »

OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).

Yes, OSAS is a lie of the Devil. I reject all Reformed doctrines of "salvation."

1) I'm not saying one who is saved knows God will save that one, that they will endure. I'm saying one who is saved knows they are currently saved/right with God/ransomed from the power of Satan to God.

2) Shepherd of Hermas confirms what the Book of Hebrews says, that there is really virtually only one repentance for the people of God which is supposed to happen at baptism. Yes a second repentance can happen as we see examples of the Judge giving some of the 7 Assemblies in Revelation a chance to repent for doing some wicked deeds, and also Paul mentions a man who was having his father's wife as having been delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit MIGHT be saved, and we know that later he was indeed restored to favor after a genuine repentance. Also the Angel of Repentance offers a chance to some to repent after they have fallen away too. But I've had lot's of chances. My conscience speaks to me that if I do such a deed that is wicked, like break my vows to my wife before God that I will most likely be given over to those twelve women in black in the Shepherd of Hermas which symbolize the fruits of apostasy. There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness, but for heathen repentance is possible till the last day. This was common teaching in the early Church. Tertullian talks about it too (though he went a bit too far I believe). I believe that it is dangerous to not accept Hermas as Scripture because it confirms how narrow the way is and what the correct interpretation of Hebrews 6 and 10 is. AT LEAST people should take it as true if not as Scripture equal with the Bible and heed the warnings. Even certain Orthodox in the Church have had prophecies that they received and people believe them to be from God even though they don't put them in the Bible. Even 1Clement, though not in the Bible, people would agree is true and useful for doctrine. It confirms that Protestants who believe in a priesthood for all believers only are in error. But the Bible alone can prove what I'm saying because it says the Anointed One died for past sins (Romans 3:25; 2Peter 1:9), not past, present and future, so that's how the Hebrews can say what it does.

Tony
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