Author Topic: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.  (Read 527 times)

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Offline Raylight

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Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« on: August 30, 2015, 12:17:27 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

PS: This thread is about homosexual acts, not about being gay or gay relationships ( I'm sure there are gay couples that are together and practice chastity or trying to. In the end of the day,  any relationship is not and MUST NOT be based on sex ) .

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 12:28:49 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Raylight

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 12:33:44 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer. And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 12:43:01 AM by Raylight »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 01:02:28 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer.

Au contraire, it stands as the correct answer.

That it does not come as the answer you wanted to hear does not change that.

And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
Quite appropriate words. Not as appropriate as I could have, but appropriate enough.

No conservative Christian-or any Christian for that matter-should be "open" to what is being said.

Take your ridiculous assUmption in Leviticus: judging by your eisogesis, a man can sleep with his neighbor's wife, his father's wife, his son's wife, the mother of the women he is sleeping with, or any farm animal-just as long as he himself is not married.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline recent convert

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 02:19:13 AM »
I would note that the morality preached in Leviticus 18 is the same morality preached in Romans 1. The Sermon on the Mount  replaced the severity and shortcomings in human temperament from hurting, killing, murdering etc. one's fellow human being with forgiveness, compassion, repentance etc. We remain accountable to God for the same morality.

I would think that individuals of the same sex that love each other as akin to siblings strive to overcome homosexuality.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 02:33:02 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 02:46:33 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer.

Au contraire, it stands as the correct answer.

That it does not come as the answer you wanted to hear does not change that.

And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
Quite appropriate words. Not as appropriate as I could have, but appropriate enough.

No conservative Christian-or any Christian for that matter-should be "open" to what is being said.

Take your ridiculous assUmption in Leviticus: judging by your eisogesis, a man can sleep with his neighbor's wife, his father's wife, his son's wife, the mother of the women he is sleeping with, or any farm animal-just as long as he himself is not married.

I didn't say these are my assumptions. Please don't waste my or your time on childish shenanigans. When you're ready to answer a question like an adult, then I may listen to you. Until then, have a nice day sir.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 02:49:08 AM by Raylight »

Offline Raylight

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 02:53:16 AM »
I would note that the morality preached in Leviticus 18 is the same morality preached in Romans 1. The Sermon on the Mount  replaced the severity and shortcomings in human temperament from hurting, killing, murdering etc. one's fellow human being with forgiveness, compassion, repentance etc. We remain accountable to God for the same morality.

I would think that individuals of the same sex that love each other as akin to siblings strive to overcome homosexuality.

I couldn't fully understand you point, can you please elaborate?  As for your last line, it may be true. But it also may be that the couple who are in love together but without the sexual activities realize that relationships are not based on sex like today's popular culture think it is. For example, the Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph continued to be husband and wife, loving each other...etc without sex, and here they are a great symbol of what a family should be.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 03:17:41 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer.

Au contraire, it stands as the correct answer.

That it does not come as the answer you wanted to hear does not change that.

And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
Quite appropriate words. Not as appropriate as I could have, but appropriate enough.

No conservative Christian-or any Christian for that matter-should be "open" to what is being said.

Take your ridiculous assUmption in Leviticus: judging by your eisogesis, a man can sleep with his neighbor's wife, his father's wife, his son's wife, the mother of the women he is sleeping with, or any farm animal-just as long as he himself is not married.

I didn't say these are my assumptions. Please don't waste my or your time on childish shenanigans. When you're ready to answer a question like an adult, then I may listen to you. Until then, have a nice day sir.
Don't glorify his response by reacting to it. It isn't even worth the effort.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 03:17:59 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 03:21:48 AM »
I couldn't fully understand you point, can you please elaborate?  As for your last line, it may be true. But it also may be that the couple who are in love together but without the sexual activities realize that relationships are not based on sex like today's popular culture think it is. For example, the Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph continued to be husband and wife, loving each other...etc without sex, and here they are a great symbol of what a family should be.

Well, she was the Mother of God and they weren't homosexuals.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 05:37:32 AM »
The ancient canon law of the Orthodox Church which you can find in the Pedalion forbids mutual masturbation and sodomy, explicitly.  It also increases the penance if a husband and wife commit sodomy versus two gay men, but the ban clearly applies to gay men and explicit cases are cited.  Also, men who have been sodomized are disqualified from the priesthood.  One of the earliest canons to explicitly talk about homosexuality was a disciplinary canon of St. Gregory of Nyassa, whereas St. John Chrysostom, whose interpretations of scripture are authoritative in the Orthodox Church, directly interprets the Bible verses in question as condeming homosexuality and uses them to launch his own withering attack on the practice.  Actually all ancient voices of the Church are unanimous in condemning homosexuality, and cite these verses among others in defense of their condemnation.

 Adelphopoiesis was also discontinued in the EO church according to St. Nicodemus due to homosexual abuse of the rite.  My church still has it, or at least did around 2003 at the Monastery of St. Mark in Jerusalem, but the idea of homosexual trysts in the Syriac church aside from the apocryphal Mor/Trisagion relationship is laughable enough to be included in the stories of Mar Bar Hebraeus.   :P   ;D
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Offline eddybear

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 05:47:18 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

The problem with these arguments is that they try to introduce contexts that simply aren't there, in order to try to put an alternative interpretation on the the text. The examples from the OT don't say anything about this being to do with married men. The passage from Romans doesn't refer to the context of idolatry - but it does mention lust. These passages are far more more blanket condemnations of homosexual acts than the limited application some try to argue.

It is quite a common device, when trying to avoid what the Scriptures are saying clearly, to invent a context which limits the application to someone else, and not ourselves. We all do it, on a whole range of issues and not just sex, when we find something we don't like. The challenge is to allow the Scriptures to say what they say, even if we don't like it.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 07:44:10 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Orthodox Christian response to these arguments ?



Fixed it for you.  This is an orthodox board, not a conservative evangelical board.  Because Orthodoxy and Evangelicals may agree on sexual ethics does not mean that Orthodoxy's doctrine and practice when addressing these matters is inherently conservative. 
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 08:08:31 AM »
Let me be so bold as to suggest that if one is not personally struggling with homosexuality or himself a priest offering council to those who are then it would be better to concern oneself with one's own sins and let those with homosexual inclinations worry about their own.

Let me also suggest that before one posts on this issue he/she acquaints himself/herself with the best scholarship on both sides of the issue. At the moment, this requires reading Robert A.J. Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics on the conservative Evangelical Christian side and K. Renato Lings, Love Lost in Translation: Homosexuality and the Bible on the liberal Christian side. Lings, in particular, is worth reading as he comes to his subject both as a professional translator and as a trained theologian, thus bringing to the debate an aspect not often considered. Taken together this is almost 1000 pages of theological reading, but well worth the effort for those genuinely concerned with the topic.

Here are links to US amazon.com for Gagnon
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Homosexual-Practice-Texts-Hermeneutics/dp/0687022797/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1440936205&sr=1-1&keywords=gagnon
and Lings
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Lost-Translation-Homosexuality-Bible/dp/1466987901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440936257&sr=8-1&keywords=renato+lings

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 08:39:48 AM »
Ray, you keep begging the question!
Know a guy who reads Scripture and has flying saucers and Noah's Ark in the same "interpretation".
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2015, 03:55:43 PM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer.

Au contraire, it stands as the correct answer.

That it does not come as the answer you wanted to hear does not change that.

And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
Quite appropriate words. Not as appropriate as I could have, but appropriate enough.

No conservative Christian-or any Christian for that matter-should be "open" to what is being said.

Take your ridiculous assUmption in Leviticus: judging by your eisogesis, a man can sleep with his neighbor's wife, his father's wife, his son's wife, the mother of the women he is sleeping with, or any farm animal-just as long as he himself is not married.

I didn't say these are my assumptions. Please don't waste my or your time on childish shenanigans. When you're ready to answer a question like an adult, then I may listen to you. Until then, have a nice day sir.
Don't glorify his response by reacting to it. It isn't even worth the effort.
You speaking to me, or to him?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 09:57:42 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?
These assERtions are excrement.

This is not an answer.

Au contraire, it stands as the correct answer.

That it does not come as the answer you wanted to hear does not change that.

And trying to use inappropriate words to describe the other side argument is not doing anything good, except making it more difficult for me to be open to what is being said.
Quite appropriate words. Not as appropriate as I could have, but appropriate enough.

No conservative Christian-or any Christian for that matter-should be "open" to what is being said.

Take your ridiculous assUmption in Leviticus: judging by your eisogesis, a man can sleep with his neighbor's wife, his father's wife, his son's wife, the mother of the women he is sleeping with, or any farm animal-just as long as he himself is not married.

I didn't say these are my assumptions. Please don't waste my or your time on childish shenanigans. When you're ready to answer a question like an adult, then I may listen to you. Until then, have a nice day sir.
Don't glorify his response by reacting to it. It isn't even worth the effort.
You speaking to me, or to him?
Both
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:58:28 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 10:04:02 AM »
Let me be so bold as to suggest that if one is not personally struggling with homosexuality or himself a priest offering council to those who are then it would be better to concern oneself with one's own sins and let those with homosexual inclinations worry about their own.
But when he asks for our interpretation of Scripture, are we to deny it to him?

Quote
Let me also suggest that before one posts on this issue he/she acquaints himself/herself with the best scholarship on both sides of the issue. At the moment, this requires reading Robert A.J. Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics on the conservative Evangelical Christian side and K. Renato Lings, Love Lost in Translation: Homosexuality and the Bible on the liberal Christian side. Lings, in particular, is worth reading as he comes to his subject both as a professional translator and as a trained theologian, thus bringing to the debate an aspect not often considered. Taken together this is almost 1000 pages of theological reading, but well worth the effort for those genuinely concerned with the topic.

Here are links to US amazon.com for Gagnon
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Homosexual-Practice-Texts-Hermeneutics/dp/0687022797/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1440936205&sr=1-1&keywords=gagnon
and Lings
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Lost-Translation-Homosexuality-Bible/dp/1466987901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440936257&sr=8-1&keywords=renato+lings
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:05:21 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 10:38:08 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

PS: This thread is about homosexual acts, not about being gay or gay relationships ( I'm sure there are gay couples that are together and practice chastity or trying to. In the end of the day,  any relationship is not and MUST NOT be based on sex ) .
These are theories that have been put out in recent years, but if these were the case, why aren't the located somewhere within the tradition of the Church or within Judaism? It seems rather incredulous to me to think that these recent theories are what the ancient writers meant, but then such meanings were immediately lost, only to be rediscovered thousands of years later by people who have no first hand experience with that culture or language. It is also rather strange that if St. Paul did mean to criticize using sex as an act of worship to pagan gods, why didn't he just say that? Does this also mean that other offenses that he mentions such as covetousness, deceit, backbiting, etc are also acceptable provided that they are not used to worship a pagan god? The ramifications of such a position would be rather wide ranging.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 11:32:59 AM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

PS: This thread is about homosexual acts, not about being gay or gay relationships ( I'm sure there are gay couples that are together and practice chastity or trying to. In the end of the day,  any relationship is not and MUST NOT be based on sex ) .

I think that the only Christian response would be to disagree with the thesis that the Holy Bible does not consider homosexual acts to be sins. In addition to disagreeing with that particular interpretation of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Romans, a Christian would also point out St Paul's catalogs of sins that include homosexual acts. Indeed, some translations of  make it clear that he is talking about sodomites and catamites. Here are the catalogs:

"9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." 1 Timothy 9-11.

"9 Don’t you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t delude yourselves — people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality, 10 who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob — none of them will share in the Kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 9-11

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 12:06:11 PM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

PS: This thread is about homosexual acts, not about being gay or gay relationships ( I'm sure there are gay couples that are together and practice chastity or trying to. In the end of the day,  any relationship is not and MUST NOT be based on sex ) .

I think that the only Christian response would be to disagree with the thesis that the Holy Bible does not consider homosexual acts to be sins. In addition to disagreeing with that particular interpretation of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Romans, a Christian would also point out St Paul's catalogs of sins that include homosexual acts. Indeed, some translations of  make it clear that he is talking about sodomites and catamites. Here are the catalogs:

"9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." 1 Timothy 9-11.

"9 Don’t you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t delude yourselves — people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality, 10 who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob — none of them will share in the Kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 9-11

I agree. 

One correction and a few different translations with the entirety of St. Paul's directive to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthains 5.9-13

I wrote to you in the epistle not to be associating with fornicators; and yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or rapacious, or idolaters, for otherwise then ye are obliged to go out of the world.  But now I am writing to you not to be associating with anyone, if called a brother, who is a fornicator, or coveter, or idolater, or reviler, or drunkard, or ravener--with such a one not even to eat.  For what is it to me to judge also those outside?  Ye judge those inside, do ye not?  But God judgeth those outside. "And ye shall remove the evil from among yourselves."

Translation: Holy Apostles Convent

I Corinthians 5.9-13

I wrote to you in my letter to have no fellowship with those who are immoral; yet I did not mean with the immoral people of this world, or with those who are greedy, dishonest, or idolaters; or else you would have to leave the world!  But as it is, I wrote to you not to associate wtih anyone who is called a brother who is a sexual sinner, or greedy, or an idolater, or a slanderer, or a drunkard, or someone dishonest. [In fact], do not even eat with such a person!  Indeed, what do I have to do with judging those also who are outside?  Do you not judge those who are within?  But those who are outside, God judges. 

"Therefore, put away the wicked man from among yourselves!"

Translation: The Eastern / Greek Orthodox New Testament.  New Rome Press.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:13:23 PM by Velsigne »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 12:10:39 PM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Orthodox Christian response to these arguments ?



Fixed it for you.  This is an orthodox board, not a conservative evangelical board.  Because Orthodoxy and Evangelicals may agree on sexual ethics does not mean that Orthodoxy's doctrine and practice when addressing these matters is inherently conservative.

That's what I was wondering with his labeling of it as "conservative"  so as to separate one Christian from another over this issue.

I see it as either Christian, or "we call ourselves Christians but do whatever we want and feel justified in doing so."

I'm not sure the latter one is Christianity at all, but more of a type of lawyering trying to find loop holes in contracts, ignoring the larger intent of the document. 

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 02:30:51 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 03:00:15 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?
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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:08:15 PM »

I'm sure several of the members here read/heard about the arguments used to show that the Holy Scriptures do not condemn homosexual acts. Including but not limited to; The verses that are used in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not actually about two gay men having sex, but a married man having sex with another man, Romans first is not about sex in a private space, but about sex between men/women that used as an act of worship to pagan gods.

What is the conservative Christian response to these arguments ?

PS: This thread is about homosexual acts, not about being gay or gay relationships ( I'm sure there are gay couples that are together and practice chastity or trying to. In the end of the day,  any relationship is not and MUST NOT be based on sex ) .
These are theories that have been put out in recent years, but if these were the case, why aren't the located somewhere within the tradition of the Church or within Judaism? It seems rather incredulous to me to think that these recent theories are what the ancient writers meant, but then such meanings were immediately lost, only to be rediscovered thousands of years later by people who have no first hand experience with that culture or language. It is also rather strange that if St. Paul did mean to criticize using sex as an act of worship to pagan gods, why didn't he just say that? Does this also mean that other offenses that he mentions such as covetousness, deceit, backbiting, etc are also acceptable provided that they are not used to worship a pagan god? The ramifications of such a position would be rather wide ranging.
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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 04:15:57 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.
You offered the works of some heterodox scholars and theologians as "examples of the best scholarship" on the subject raised in the OP. I therefore think a criticism of these works central to the discussion on this thread. My Number One criticism is that we shouldn't look to heterodox sources to give us an Orthodox understanding of the Scriptures.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 04:17:28 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 04:30:41 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?
Most of your questions here are rather begging the question, but I would like to address the inquiry about whether this applies to all topics or only to homosexuality. I think it applies to all topics. If something is determined by the Church to be sin, it is sin. It doesn't matter what millenia, century or decade it is in. Divorce is still sin. Homosexual acts, still sin. Lustful thoughts, still sin. Gluttony, still sin. I think homosexuality has been the biggest flashpoint, but there are other estrangements from culture that we see in this regard. Immodest dress is regarded now as a thing to glorify, excessive eating is now a sport, and the list could go on. These are all opposed to the teachings of our Church.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 04:39:23 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?

so we should throw out Holy Tradition for modern interpetations of Scripture and nice side steping Peter question he has a point, why not just respond to him instead of side steping his question then posing one of your own questions just reply to a question already asked if that not too hard. The Church Fathers, The Desert Fathers, The Saints, Holy Tradition, The Apostles and the Scripture are very clear on the issue of Homosexuality. No thank you sir The Orthodox Church isn't looking to become Sadom and Gomarrah. In Genisis it was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:49:37 PM by seekeroftruth777 »
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 04:43:08 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?

so we should throw out Holy Tradition for modern interpetations of Scripture and nice side steping Peter question he has a point, why not just respond to hm instead of side steping his question then posing one of your own questions just reply to a question already asked. The Church Fathers, The Desert Fathers, The Saints, Holy Tradition, The Apostles and the Scripture are very clear on the issue of Homosexuality. No thank you sir The Orthodox Church isn't looking to become Sadom and Gomarrah. In Genisis it was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

Agreed. The question on this was answered thousands of years ago, and the answer is the same now. No need for 'new' information on the topic.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:43:49 PM by HaydenTE »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 05:02:28 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?
You say you don't want to debate my question, yet here you are debating my question. Why don't you just answer my question first. Why should we look to heterodox sources for an Orthodox interpretation of the Scriptures? Or do you care more about modern scholarship than you do what our own Tradition has to say?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 08:51:32 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?

Don't be an ass.  No one's worried or afraid that a heterodox book is going to change their mind.  But why do you insist on not answering the question (saying you won't debate by debating) as to why theologians from heterodox confessions somehow hold the answer while our own inheritance is lacking?  Or is it simpler than that?  Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are compatible with your own and you want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.  (But we're not debating. I forgot). 

There is a humility in our appeal to the Holy Fathers and their expositions on the doctrines of the Church. 
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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 08:57:24 PM »
Scamandrius,

You know better than that.  10 points for ad hominem.  Please be careful the way you address your argument.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 09:29:51 PM »
Why should we expose ourselves to the theological "scholarship" and biblical interpretations of those outside our Tradition?

If that was a serious question, you might want to start a new topic thread with it. If it was just an attempt to get me debating, I'm not going to take the bate.

Do you hold your positions so weakly that you cannot withstand a debate?

It's a good question.  Why should we Orthodox read and/or accept the doctrinal positions of the heterodox?  Is the Church's interpretation somehow deficient because it does not conform to your worldview?

As I said, I am not going to debate this here. Instead let me put a question or two to you all. Is the Church's position so set in stone that we must shut our ears to any developments which took place after the philokalia texts were written? Does this apply to all topics or only to homosexuality? Are the people who post with such assurance here on the topics of homosexuality so worried they may change their minds that they're afraid to open a book not written by the Church Fathers? Are we to stick our heads in the sand and ignore any thinking that took place after the Byzantine era?
I have no interest in the neo-Nazi, Black nationalist, or homosexual eisogesis of scripture. Why should I? They are founded on faulty notions, crippled by wayward self-serving aims and worthless results. They start wrong, proceed wrong, end wrong.

Some profit can be had from some writings that the Vatican and the Protestants put out; others not so much.

Some profit can be had from Jewish writings, whereas Muslim writings do not have the same (I deal with Muslim interpretation of the Bible etc. only because I deal with Muslims).

Homosexual acts are not a development after the Philokalia. They were around and condemned in St. Paul's day, and before.

We don't have to ignore thinking. That does not mean we have to listen to senseless babbling.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #33 on: Today at 12:14:17 AM »
Don't be an ass.  No one's worried or afraid that a heterodox book is going to change their mind.  But why do you insist on not answering the question (saying you won't debate by debating) as to why theologians from heterodox confessions somehow hold the answer while our own inheritance is lacking?  Or is it simpler than that? Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are compatible with your own and you want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.  (But we're not debating. I forgot). 

There is a humility in our appeal to the Holy Fathers and their expositions on the doctrines of the Church.

Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are not compatible with your own and you don't want the Orthodox position to change?  If you don't, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:22:43 AM by FinnJames »

Offline LBK

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #34 on: Today at 12:16:43 AM »
Don't be an ass.  No one's worried or afraid that a heterodox book is going to change their mind.  But why do you insist on not answering the question (saying you won't debate by debating) as to why theologians from heterodox confessions somehow hold the answer while our own inheritance is lacking?  Or is it simpler than that? Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are compatible with your own and you want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.  (But we're not debating. I forgot). 

There is a humility in our appeal to the Holy Fathers and their expositions on the doctrines of the Church.

Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are not compatible with your own and you don't want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.

The Orthodox Church doesn't do "doctrinal development". Its teaching on this matter is clear, and consistent throughout the life of the Church.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #35 on: Today at 12:19:38 AM »
Don't be an ass.  No one's worried or afraid that a heterodox book is going to change their mind.  But why do you insist on not answering the question (saying you won't debate by debating) as to why theologians from heterodox confessions somehow hold the answer while our own inheritance is lacking?  Or is it simpler than that? Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are compatible with your own and you want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.  (But we're not debating. I forgot). 

There is a humility in our appeal to the Holy Fathers and their expositions on the doctrines of the Church.

Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are not compatible with your own and you don't want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.
Why don't we adopt the view espoused in the "Satanic Bible" and change the Orthodox possible to that source, and sacrifice our children to the Prince of Darkness on Sunday?
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #36 on: Today at 12:28:37 AM »
Why don't we adopt the view espoused in the "Satanic Bible" and change the Orthodox possible to that source, and sacrifice our children to the Prince of Darkness on Sunday?

Now we're getting down to it. In just what way would welcoming a gay or lesbian couple into the congregation, or even allowing a woman to serve at the altar, be comparable to worshipping satan or murdering children?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #37 on: Today at 12:34:13 AM »
Why don't we adopt the view espoused in the "Satanic Bible" and change the Orthodox possible to that source, and sacrifice our children to the Prince of Darkness on Sunday?

Now we're getting down to it. In just what way would welcoming a gay or lesbian couple into the congregation, or even allowing a woman to serve at the altar, be comparable to worshipping satan or murdering children?
Not murder them. Sacrifice them.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Scripture objection to homosexual acts.
« Reply #38 on: Today at 02:45:11 AM »
Don't be an ass.  No one's worried or afraid that a heterodox book is going to change their mind.  But why do you insist on not answering the question (saying you won't debate by debating) as to why theologians from heterodox confessions somehow hold the answer while our own inheritance is lacking?  Or is it simpler than that? Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are compatible with your own and you want the Orthodox position to change?  If you do, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.  (But we're not debating. I forgot). 

There is a humility in our appeal to the Holy Fathers and their expositions on the doctrines of the Church.

Could it  just be that the views espoused in such works are not compatible with your own and you don't want the Orthodox position to change?  If you don't, just be honest and say so and cut the charade of trying to frame the debate in terms of sources and such.
You're still avoiding the question. Why should you, an Orthodox Christian, abandon your own Patristic theological Tradition to follow after whatever heterodox teachings tickle your ears?
« Last Edit: Today at 02:45:38 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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