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Author Topic: Re: Jerusalem Patriarchate/Relations of Patriarchates  (Read 8202 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2007, 02:41:20 AM »

They are vicious and wild animals, I would call them swine or dogs, but that would be disrespectful to pigs and canines, both of which are of much higher dignity, dont let the mohammedan fool you into thinking they are anything more.


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I can't believe I missed this. And I thank the poster who pointed it out.
This is an Orthodox Christian Forum. Racist remarks which denigrate human beings created in the Image of God as being subhuman will not be tolerated here. And spare me the "but they're not a race" argument, since you also say:
they are a vile race to be sure.


And you can also spare me the debate on whether the Image of God is common to all men...not up for discussion at this point.

This is a formal warning.

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« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2007, 12:10:41 PM »



MODERATION:
I can't believe I missed this. And I thank the poster who pointed it out.
This is an Orthodox Christian Forum. Racist remarks which denigrate human beings created in the Image of God as being subhuman will not be tolerated here. And spare me the "but they're not a race" argument, since you also say:


According to the Ottomans it was a race, or an ethnos, that is to say an ethnicity. There was a time when ethnicity was determined by culture and religion, to change it to a matter of genetics is a rather modern innovation. I guess I was just being too traditionalist for OC.net. Wink

There's a headline, GiC warned for being too traditionalist! Who'd have thought.

To quote, as the pope did recently, the God-Ordained Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'

So while my opinions may not have the official OC.net approval...at least I stand in good company.

Quote

And you can also spare me the debate on whether the Image of God is common to all men...not up for discussion at this point.


I dont recall saying otherwise in this thread, but surely you would agree that even that which was created as good can be twisted to evil (or at least I think that's what you were arguing for the better part of a week). Wink
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« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2007, 02:53:40 PM »

Greek,

The problem you are running into is not your concern over the ruthlessness of the muslims, which I think we all know the horrid things this religion has done to Christians and humanity in general over the centuries. It is the sweeping generalization of all muslims. Although I could be wrong,it sounds like you hate arabs and muslims. As a Christian, you do not have the perogative to hate anyone. You must love and forgive. This is our holy obligation if we are to acquire the Holy Spirit.

With all of that being said, I wish that the Muslim religion (not the people) would simply vanish. I think the world would be a lot better off without Islam. Imagine if the arabs turned to Jesus! It would be amazing!
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« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2007, 05:24:38 PM »

The problem you are running into is not your concern over the ruthlessness of the muslims, which I think we all know the horrid things this religion has done to Christians and humanity in general over the centuries. It is the sweeping generalization of all muslims. Although I could be wrong,it sounds like you hate arabs and muslims. As a Christian, you do not have the perogative to hate anyone. You must love and forgive. This is our holy obligation if we are to acquire the Holy Spirit.

I believe that it has come to the point where hate really isn't necessary. It's become a simple bureaucratic problem of how best to deal with this threat to western civilization...so while hate may be appropriate in reference to islamic ideology, in regard to the people involved indifference may be the word you're looking towards.

With all of that being said, I wish that the Muslim religion (not the people) would simply vanish. I think the world would be a lot better off without Islam. Imagine if the arabs turned to Jesus! It would be amazing!

I agree that this would, by far, be the best of all possibilities...though I have come to the point where I would at least entertain other possibilities for eliminating the mohammedan religion.
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« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 01:03:21 AM »

The problem you are running into is not your concern over the ruthlessness of the muslims, which I think we all know the horrid things this religion has done to Christians and humanity in general over the centuries. It is the sweeping generalization of all muslims. Although I could be wrong,it sounds like you hate arabs and muslims. As a Christian, you do not have the perogative to hate anyone. You must love and forgive. This is our holy obligation if we are to acquire the Holy Spirit.

 Our resident Bagpiper finally decided to weigh in with something more substantive than stickers and cartoons!  Grin  Wink And I agree whole-heartedly with this sentiment (love and forgiveness, that is...).

With all of that being said,...Imagine if the arabs turned to Jesus! It would be amazing!

 I would add two things (and this is only to clarify for those who may not realize).
       1) Not all Arabs are Muslims. There happens to be many Arabic Christians in most Arab nations.
       2) If all Arabs turned to Jesus then we truly could say 'Alhamd'ul'illahi 'rabil al'amin!!' All praise is due to God, the Lord of the Universe!!

 Salaam (Peace),
 Gabriel
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« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2007, 03:44:19 PM »

After pulling their recognition of Theophilus III, the Jordanian government has flip-flopped and reinstated their endorsement.  What is really going on?

http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=9793

Jordan again recognizes Jerusalem's Greek Orthodox patriarch
 
Amman (dpa) - Jordan on Tuesday once again recognized Theophilus III as patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, after pulling its recognition last month over the purported sale of church property, the government said.
 
"The decision comes after the cabinet has become convinced that Theophilus has honoured all the commitments he undertook when he was appointed as patriarch in 2005," spokesman Nasser Judeh said after a regular cabinet meeting.

Theophilus III replaced Irineos I, who was ousted in May 2005 over claims of being involved in the unsanctioned sale of church property to Jewish investors - an act that is barred under Israel's peace agreement with Jordan in 1994.

On May 12 this year, the Jordanian government revoked recognition of Theophilus after receiving what it described then as "documented evidence" that he was involved in at least 12 transactions to sell or lease church property in Jerusalem.

Judeh said that the cabinet's reversal came after Theophilus sent two letters to Prime Minister Marouf Bakhit on Friday and the Holy Synod issued a statement on Monday emphasising that no church land had been sold under the current patriarch's tenure.

The patriarch has also honoured his commitment to appoint four Jordanians to the Holy Synod and to abide by the 1958 law which bans the sale of any church land or property in Jerusalem, he added.

East Jerusalem was under Jordan's jurisdiction when Israel seized the West Bank in the 1967 six-day war and annexed the Arab part of the holy city.

Under the provisions of the 1994 peace treaty, Israel acknowledged Jordan's right as custodian of the Christian and Islamic holy places in the holy city.
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« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2007, 10:44:48 PM »

"The decision comes after the cabinet has become convinced that Theophilus has honoured all the commitments he undertook when he was appointed as patriarch in 2005," spokesman Nasser Judeh said after a regular cabinet meeting.

Theophilus III replaced Irineos I, who was ousted in May 2005 over claims of being involved in the unsanctioned sale of church property to Jewish investors - an act that is barred under Israel's peace agreement with Jordan in 1994.

Judeh said that the cabinet's reversal came after Theophilus sent two letters to Prime Minister Marouf Bakhit on Friday and the Holy Synod issued a statement on Monday emphasising that no church land had been sold under the current patriarch's tenure.

The patriarch has also honoured his commitment to appoint four Jordanians to the Holy Synod and to abide by the 1958 law which bans the sale of any church land or property in Jerusalem, he added.

East Jerusalem was under Jordan's jurisdiction when Israel seized the West Bank in the 1967 six-day war and annexed the Arab part of the holy city.

Under the provisions of the 1994 peace treaty, Israel acknowledged Jordan's right as custodian of the Christian and Islamic holy places in the holy city. [/i]

 King Abdallah II, as the ruling monarch, has certain responsibilities that he is held accountable to. Although very pro-West and eager to maintain friendly relations with Israel, he also understands the historic 'relationship' between his people and Israel, and his country with its neighbors. He cannot afford to turn a blind eye to the sale of church land to Israel, as his country is the legal custodian of church land, the sale of which is indeed illegal according to the '94 treaty. Had he said nothing, he would very posibly lose vital credibility with his Muslim neighbors, something he (and I would argue we) cannot afford to lose as it could very easy create even more instability in the region and for his country. Jordan, compared with other countries in the region, is very moderate with a stable economy but it does have it's extremist elements. Any mis-step by the king, and it could invite unwelcome circumstances. Just last year a hotel was blown up, killing members of wedding being held. It's widely believed that Al Qaida was responsible.
 Yet I feel that by not recognizing the Patriarch was not so much a rebuke towards the Patriarch as it was a reminder to Israel of the 94 peace treaty.
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2007, 03:18:45 AM »

Constantinople has made her share of sacrifices over the years, she is the most exalted of patriarchates, first Bishop of the Church, Ultimate See of Appeal, with Direct Jurisdiction over all the world save the other four patriarchates, and even indirect jurisdiction over those. Yet she has humbled herself exceedingly for the good of the Church, she has yielded power that is hers by tradition and canon to those who would seek to gain it by any means possible for the well being of the Church. No other patriarch could sacrifice more than the Oecumenical Throne, for no other patriarch has as much to sacrifice. I would strongly recommend you read documents written before 20th century, your idealism is not played out in the history of the Orthodox Church.

The Church should be dedicated to fighting the Mohammedan heretics and their sympathizers, not allying themselves with these infidels. To ally with mohammedan peoples or with the mohammedan governments is to deny Christ and blaspheme the faith.







Well you should have went to his Eminence's ordination so that you could have made a fool out of yourself when you had the chace. It would have been most entertaining.

That would be the real Church in this world, not some idealistic fantasy some 20th century idealists have fabricated and have attempted to use to usurp the Church.




Christisgreek, you have no clue as to what your saying. You need to takeOrthodoxy101. Constantinople has absolutely no jurisdiction other than its own. In fact if you believe they do, then you should be a roman catholic, since this is what Rome says.

You need to re-read canon 28 of chalcedon, and if you still believe in your interpretation of it, you have no choice but to join the papists.

Constantinople is the first among equals because it was the royal city, a future council can change the order of the patriarchates or even abolish them altogether. In the case of the E.P. one doesnt have to wait for a future pan-orthodox council since he will be extinct in a few decades.

As far as the JP, While i do believe Irenious was screwed , i dont think he will ever be back since he lost the backing of the arab flock and the brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre. I'll be o.k with Theophilus as long as he remains anti-ecumenist and steers the JP in the same direction it always has, which is the one patriarchate which has always upheld doctrinal purity and is rightly adorned with the title of " Mother of all the Churches".
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2007, 03:55:20 AM »

I believe that it has come to the point where hate really isn't necessary. It's become a simple bureaucratic problem of how best to deal with this threat to western civilization...so while hate may be appropriate in reference to islamic ideology, in regard to the people involved indifference may be the word you're looking towards.

I agree that this would, by far, be the best of all possibilities...though I have come to the point where I would at least entertain other possibilities for eliminating the mohammedan religion.
This is even more frightening, more inhuman than straight hatred would be. Advocating the diapassionate extermination of a 'threat' which is actually a group of human beings, is the sort of thing I imagine took place when some Nazi official solved their simple 'bureaucratic problem' by condemning my relative to the gas chambers of Auschwitz. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a society that espouses the view you advocate and it seems to me that you are in need of prayers every bit as much as are the Muslims whom you identify (in many cases rightfully) as a threat. Your attitude, in this matter simply is not fitting for a Christian.

James
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2007, 07:06:07 AM »

I agree, James
Sounds much like the Turks solving their Armenian and Greek problems, too.

 
("Modern" Turkey, that is, as if its an improvement over the sultan, hah!)
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2007, 07:12:28 AM »

in regard to the people involved indifference may be the word you're looking towards
"There is no greater sacrilege than insensitivity toward those who suffer."  Simone Weil
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2007, 11:58:34 AM »

Christisgreek, you have no clue as to what your saying. You need to takeOrthodoxy101. Constantinople has absolutely no jurisdiction other than its own. In fact if you believe they do, then you should be a roman catholic, since this is what Rome says.

You need to re-read canon 28 of chalcedon, and if you still believe in your interpretation of it, you have no choice but to join the papists.

Constantinople is the first among equals because it was the royal city, a future council can change the order of the patriarchates or even abolish them altogether. In the case of the E.P. one doesnt have to wait for a future pan-orthodox council since he will be extinct in a few decades.

Sounds like you need to take Canon Law 101; the relevant canons in regard to this issue with Jerusalem are Canons 9 and 17 of Chalcedon which refer to Constantinople's appellate jurisdiction, not Canon 28 which deals with her original jurisdiction. Yes, the Church does has an ancient and well established legal system, it's not all about having the feel-good-warm-fuzzies from hip spirituality.
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2007, 03:52:56 PM »

CONSTANTINOPLE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER ANYONE ELSES JURISDICTION. iN FACT CYPRUS WAS PRONOUNCED AUTOCEPHALOUS AND ACEPHALOUS AT THE THIRD ECUMENICAL COUNCIL.  ABSOLUTELY NO PATRIARCHATE CAN ANNEX THEM.
iN FACT CONSTANTINOPLE WILL NOT EVEN BE AROUND IN A FEW MORE DECADES, THEIR EXTINCTION IS IMMINENT. 
ANY CLAIM THAT cONSTANTINOPLE HAS PAPAL SUPREMACY IS HERESY , ALL PATRIARCHATES WERE ESTABLISHED BY CANONS, THESE CANONS CAN CHANGE THE ORDER OF THE PATRIARCHATES OR ABOLISH ALTOGETHER.
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2007, 04:07:14 PM »

CONSTANTINOPLE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER ANYONE ELSES JURISDICTION. iN FACT CYPRUS WAS PRONOUNCED AUTOCEPHALOUS AND ACEPHALOUS AT THE THIRD ECUMENICAL COUNCIL.  ABSOLUTELY NO PATRIARCHATE CAN ANNEX THEM.
iN FACT CONSTANTINOPLE WILL NOT EVEN BE AROUND IN A FEW MORE DECADES, THEIR EXTINCTION IS IMMINENT. 
ANY CLAIM THAT cONSTANTINOPLE HAS PAPAL SUPREMACY IS HERESY , ALL PATRIARCHATES WERE ESTABLISHED BY CANONS, THESE CANONS CAN CHANGE THE ORDER OF THE PATRIARCHATES OR ABOLISH ALTOGETHER.

Stop yelling at us. Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2007, 04:18:52 PM »

CONSTANTINOPLE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER ANYONE ELSES JURISDICTION. iN FACT CYPRUS WAS PRONOUNCED AUTOCEPHALOUS AND ACEPHALOUS AT THE THIRD ECUMENICAL COUNCIL.  ABSOLUTELY NO PATRIARCHATE CAN ANNEX THEM.
iN FACT CONSTANTINOPLE WILL NOT EVEN BE AROUND IN A FEW MORE DECADES, THEIR EXTINCTION IS IMMINENT. 
ANY CLAIM THAT cONSTANTINOPLE HAS PAPAL SUPREMACY IS HERESY , ALL PATRIARCHATES WERE ESTABLISHED BY CANONS, THESE CANONS CAN CHANGE THE ORDER OF THE PATRIARCHATES OR ABOLISH ALTOGETHER.

Did you actually read the canons in question? No one claimed that Constantinople had original jurisdiction in lands of the Ancient Patriarchates, the jurisdiction is appellate...for the second time. Roll Eyes Oh, and if you're so convinced that Constantinople won't exist in a few years, why do you care? Why not just concede that Constantinople is the standard of the Faith? After all, it doesn't really matter according to your theory? Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2007, 06:20:44 PM »

I believe that it has come to the point where hate really isn't necessary. It's become a simple bureaucratic problem of how best to deal with this threat to western civilization...so while hate may be appropriate in reference to islamic ideology, in regard to the people involved indifference may be the word you're looking towards.
I agree that this would, by far, be the best of all possibilities...though I have come to the point where I would at least entertain other possibilities for eliminating the mohammedan religion.
This sentimentality is completely out of place for this forum. It's irresponsible, hateful, and illbefitting of one who calls themself a Christian, to say the least. Calling on what amounts to a genocide of a group of people is very disturbing.
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2007, 07:52:05 PM »

This sentimentality is completely out of place for this forum. It's irresponsible, hateful, and illbefitting of one who calls themself a Christian, to say the least. Calling on what amounts to a genocide of a group of people is very disturbing.

I don't think that my Sith master ever actually advocated wholesale extermination.  Note that he called for the eradication of the religion in question, not necessarily its adherents.  Mass conversions to anything other than Islam would suffice.
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« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2007, 10:46:04 PM »

I don't think that my Sith master ever actually advocated wholesale extermination.  Note that he called for the eradication of the religion in question, not necessarily its adherents.
Really?  Perhaps I misunderstood his comments; comments he's made on this very thread. In fact, earlier in this same thread, your master got himself moderated by posting: "They are vicious and wild animals, I would call them swine or dogs, but that would be disrespectful to pigs and canines, both of which are of much higher dignity, dont let the mohammedan fool you into thinking they are anything more."

 And as regards to genocide, I think the following comments below speak for themself:

And the solutions I have thus far offered is to eliminate the Moslem majority, through whatever means necessary.


Along with what several other posters have said in regards to this type of comment, I believe the poster who made the comments below say it best.

Quote
Greek,
The problem you are running into is... the sweeping generalization of all muslims. Although I could be wrong,it sounds like you hate arabs and muslims. As a Christian, you do not have the perogative to hate anyone. You must love and forgive.

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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2007, 01:04:58 AM »

And as regards to genocide, I think the following comments below speak for themself:

'Through whatever means necessary', while I believe military force is necessary I am not so sure of Genocide. Yes, I am sure that certain Islamic leaders would need to be neutralized, but Islam can be destroyed in a manner similiar to how it was established. Islam invaded Christian lands and by placing undue hardship on those who failed to convert won many converts. Let us do the same, offer on one hand wealth and prosperity to those who reject Islam, and poverty and hardship to those who do not. This could bring about the destruction of the vast majority of the religion, with more drastic mesures only needing to be taken on a small minority. The prefered method I've advocated is forced re-education and state-education of Children, not genocide.
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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2007, 01:32:34 AM »

'Through whatever means necessary', while I believe military force is necessary I am not so sure of Genocide. Yes, I am sure that certain Islamic leaders would need to be neutralized, but Islam can be destroyed in a manner similiar to how it was established. Islam invaded Christian lands and by placing undue hardship on those who failed to convert won many converts. Let us do the same, offer on one hand wealth and prosperity to those who reject Islam, and poverty and hardship to those who do not. This could bring about the destruction of the vast majority of the religion, with more drastic mesures only needing to be taken on a small minority. The prefered method I've advocated is forced re-education and state-education of Children, not genocide.
Must we return evil for evil as you advocate?  Is this consistent with the Gospel?
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« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2007, 01:59:13 AM »

Must we return evil for evil as you advocate?  Is this consistent with the Gospel?

Evil? What I advocate is to free the world from the greatest evil it is ever known. It is not evil, it is the epitome of righteousness.
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« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2007, 02:08:57 AM »

Evil? What I advocate is to free the world from the greatest evil it is ever known. It is not evil, it is the epitome of righteousness.
The epitome of righteousness?  To whom?  Certainly not the Gospel, unless it be found in the Gospel According to Greekischristian, who isn't even a saint yet.  Wink
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« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2007, 02:17:15 AM »

The epitome of righteousness?  To whom?  Certainly not the Gospel, unless it be found in the Gospel According to Greekischristian, who isn't even a saint yet.  Wink

No prophet is well received in his own land...or in his own time Grin
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« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2007, 12:39:17 PM »

Must we return evil for evil as you advocate?  Is this consistent with the Gospel?

 It seems Christian philanthropy and missionary work has been a hard combination to challenge by the Muslim religion on that continent. The Muslim religion hasn't been too successful at extracting money from rich Saudi Arabians to help their poor brethren in Africa.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year

Al-Jazeerah Website

Synopsis from The American Thinker by James M. Arlandson.

This translation of a televised conversation reveals a rare glimpse into the outlook of Muslim scholars who are concerned about Christianity’s growth. The invited guest is Sheikh Ahmad Al Katani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.

Katani starts off describing the overall problem:

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed.

From what I have heard from reliable sources, six million may be too low. Reliable accounts say that one hundred thousand Africans convert to Christianity per day, though not all of them come from Islam. Then Katani says Muslims should build schools before mosques, in order to build the worshipper (Muslim) before the building. Why? To stop the the dangerous “Christian missionary octopus”

This happens often! The wealthy Arab builds a mosque for himself or one of his parents of his friend, but my dear sir, building a mosque comes as a second stage. In America, the price of building an Islamic school is 5 million dollars. In Africa, 50 thousand dollars are enough to build a very reasonably sized school. I say this and I take full responsibility for it; building a school comes before building a mosque. Build the worshiper before you build the mosque. Take for example yourself; you go to the mosque five times a day and if you added all that time it would equal an hour or maybe two hours if you include the Friday prayer. However, if I ask you how long you stayed at school, you will reply that you spent years in middle school and years in high school. Likewise the African goes to the mosque, but if we built him a school where he could spend most of his time, and provided specialized educators we could at least stop this dangerous Christian missionary octopus.

Katani states the purpose of his school:

The truth is, the institution that I administer is considered pre-college. As for the subject of attracting and preparing specialized missionaries to bring them from their countries to Libya in order to train them and return them back to their countries, that is done through the Islamic Propagation Organization. This organization has graduated a number of classes, some of whose students had masters and doctorate degrees. These efforts were fruitful in that these graduates were able to attract people from their lands and countries because they spoke the language and understood the customs of the people they were proselytizing. This way, the missionary is not a foreigner to the community he is working with, contrast that to what would happen if I went to the Philippines for example. I can’t speak a single Philippino word; much less invite people to the faith.

By now other Muslim leaders have joined in. Abbas Hamid lives in Holland, and he deplores the un-Islamic way of life:

My brother may Allah reward you. We muslims in Holland suffer a lot when we see issues like this and we really suffer when we see a muslim, as the sheikh said, who spends millions in bars and entertainment while other muslims are lost and cannot find a translation of the Koran. Even their children who are able to learn cannot memorize the Koran, they can’t find a translated Koran or even any translated book. The first thing we must do is mend our selves; the Islamic countries must fix themselves first and then they can look at Africa. May Allah reward you and this issue is interesting.

Later, an Arabic-speaking Christian discusses how Islam must preach peace and love. No one denies, as none of the Muslim scholars do, that a religion has the right to spread his faith (except in hard line Islamic countries), but these leaders seem panicky. They express frustration at Islam’s disorganized efforts to maintain Africa. But this one idea eludes them: Islam itself is the problem because it is a burdensome and harsh religion. This is apparent when one Muslim scholar talks about implementing Shari’ah as if it is self-evident that it benefits society.

The whole conversation is fascinating. We must educate ourselves about Islam, and with the worldwide web, we have unprecedented opportunities.
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« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2007, 02:39:51 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3234

Just as the Mufti in the above article exaggerates the # of Muslims in St. Petersburg, I think Katani is doing the same about Christians in Africa as well.
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« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2007, 05:55:03 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3234

Just as the Mufti in the above article exaggerates the # of Muslims in St. Petersburg, I think Katani is doing the same about Christians in Africa as well.

All the sources I could google seem to agree there are over 350 million Christians in Africa. They make up almost half of the population of the continent. At the beginning of the last century Christians were only 10% percent of the population.
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« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2007, 06:23:58 PM »

'Through whatever means necessary',
Whenever I hear this statement, it always reminds me of the picture of Malcolm X looking out a window with a semi-automatic rifle in hand. What Malcolm meant by the statement was that he was ready to take life for his cause. Juxtapose that against Dr. Martin Luther King who was fighting for the same cause, yet he did so in a manner that was radically different. Why? Because Dr. King was a Christian.

while I believe military force is necessary I am not so sure of Genocide. Yes, I am sure that certain Islamic leaders would need to be neutralized,
Neutralized = murdered for all those unfamiliar in GiC lexicon.

Let us do the same,
Christians already have someone to imitate. You can read all about it in a book called The Bible. Wink

It seems Christian philanthropy and missionary work has been a hard combination to challenge by the Muslim religion on that continent. The Muslim religion hasn't been too successful at extracting money from rich Saudi Arabians to help their poor brethren in Africa.
The experience I had with the Saudi's was the opposite. When it comes to financing Islamic education in the West, they get an A+. Just write the Saudi Embassy and you'll get free Qur'an's. And they help finance hundreds of mosques that now dot the US landscape as well as the UK, Canada, China, etc...The local mosque was financed by one of the seemingly hundreds of royal members of the Sa'udi family. When I was president of the Muslim Students Association at the local university, we regularly petitioned and received boxes of Qur'ans and other missionary liturature.

We should think about that the next time we fill up at the pump.
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« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2007, 12:12:49 AM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3234

Just as the Mufti in the above article exaggerates the # of Muslims in St. Petersburg, I think Katani is doing the same about Christians in Africa as well.
What evidence do you have to support your suspicion?
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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2007, 12:15:20 AM »

Christians already have someone to imitate. You can read all about it in a book called The Bible. Wink
...and in the Holy Tradition of the Church. Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2007, 12:37:40 AM »

...and in the Holy Tradition of the Church. Smiley
Thank you PtA, well said. Sometimes I betray my Protestant past...
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« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2007, 01:52:04 AM »


The experience I had with the Saudi's was the opposite. When it comes to financing Islamic education in the West, they get an A+. Just write the Saudi Embassy and you'll get free Qur'an's. And they help finance hundreds of mosques that now dot the US landscape as well as the UK, Canada, China, etc...The local mosque was financed by one of the seemingly hundreds of royal members of the Sa'udi family. When I was president of the Muslim Students Association at the local university, we regularly petitioned and received boxes of Qur'ans and other missionary liturature.

We should think about that the next time we fill up at the pump.


Hey Gabriel,

I think the information in the interview agrees with your point about building mosques. But where the Saudis seem to be falling down on the job is ministry work (feeding the poor, taking care of the medical needs of the poor, building clinics and schools).
Christians have given much money to alleviate some of the suffering in the various African countries. Through these various ministries many Africans have become Christians.
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« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2007, 04:01:04 AM »

What evidence do you have to support your suspicion?

Uhhh...the link to the article I posted? Roll Eyes  It is established fact that Muslims lie, called 'tarqiya', when they are in a minority position to get into a majority position.  If they lied/exaggerated in the # of Muslims to establish a precedent, then why wouldn't they lie/exaggerate the other way when they felt things were going downhill for them?
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