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Author Topic: Increased Censorship  (Read 14094 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 22, 2007, 05:05:42 PM »

I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box.  Of course, there's always the plague and problem of ad hominems, but we try to overcome those as time goes on.

A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

Thank you,
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 05:10:04 PM »

I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box.  Of course, there's always the plague and problem of ad hominems, but we try to overcome those as time goes on.

A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

Thank you,
Authio

You want increased censorship? That's just sick, there's nothing else to it. (And no, dont mistake this as an ad hominem, it's a general disgust with the concept of censorship and dislike anyone who would hold the concept of liberty in such contempt as to advocate it...nothing personal)
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 05:15:33 PM »

I'm just curious as to what you feel needs to be censored? 
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 05:23:28 PM »

dislike anyone who would hold the concept of liberty in such contempt as to advocate it...

"Some are created more equal than others" ~Animal Farm by George Orwell

I think the abuse of liberty to bully, harass, or otherwise diminish one's personal struggle with the Lord [which is one of the reasons why this forum is here and is the cause of many of the posts on this forum] by some "more equal" through the uncharitable use of rhetoric is a threat to humanity.



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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 05:38:41 PM »

I still don't undestand what you're getting at. I'm especially confused by your quoting of Orwell, since you seem to be advocating that which Orwell was so briliantly and rightly criticising in that book.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 06:03:18 PM »

I still don't undestand what you're getting at. I'm especially confused by your quoting of Orwell, since you seem to be advocating that which Orwell was so briliantly and rightly criticising in that book.

And he's complaining about the abuse of rhetoric Huh
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 06:22:21 PM »

I think the abuse of liberty to bully, harass, or otherwise diminish one's personal struggle with the Lord [which is one of the reasons why this forum is here and is the cause of many of the posts on this forum] by some "more equal" through the uncharitable use of rhetoric is a threat to humanity.

Authiodionitist,

I understand your concern, though, as one whose role as a Moderator would require me to help enact this censorship you seem to want, I don't quite agree with your desire.  I may be new to the Mod team, but I have been visiting this forum quite often for quite a while, which gives me some perspective regarding the intent behind this forum.  I'm sure the site Admins Anastasios and Fr. Chris could communicate their vision for the OC.net discussion forum even better than I can, but I do know that we try to maintain an online community environment where people are free to speak their minds and their hearts without feeling threatened or abused.  Yes, some people do like to use this forum to belittle others or will get angry and flame other posters on occasion--your OP seems to indicate that you're somewhat sensitive to this and have felt the bite of other posters' rhetoric, and if I have contributed in any way to you being stung, I beg you to forgive me.  But overall, I don't see how increased censorship would make this forum any better than it already is.  I think the Admins and Moderators have a great vision for OC.net, and I look forward to sharing in their ministry.

- Peter
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 07:50:09 PM »

A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

authiodiontist,

I'm trying to understand what you perceive as a problem. Do you mean by this quote above that you see a form of ad hominem attacks in threads discussing contemporary issues in the Orthodox Church which are not being corrrected?

It's very difficult to look at possible problems unless we are clear and all understand what the possible problem is. Perhaps you would like to pm a moderator or an admin with a specific example of what you mean.

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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 09:21:42 PM »

You gotta be kiddin me !!! Cencorship is already over the top on OCnet. I agree with GiC .It is si......






             *** Edited to prevent cencorship Wink
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 09:27:26 PM »

Can we at least find out exactly what the problem is before ripping out jugulars?  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 09:39:19 PM »

You gotta be kiddin me !!! Cencorship is already over the top on OCnet. I agree with GiC .It is si......
             *** Edited to prevent cencorship Wink

I say we censor all mispelled words.  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 09:54:35 PM »

I say we censor all mispelled words.  Grin

The mods would have to quit their day jobs. Cheesy
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 10:12:55 PM »

Can we at least find out exactly what the problem is before ripping out jugulars?  Smiley

Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 10:15:47 PM »

I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box. 

Perhaps you should reconsider leaving your own little box? The real world just might be too much for you.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2007, 10:21:50 PM »

Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
Why Authiodinitist is advocating censorship...  Evidently, someone said something that stung him and made him feel that tighter moderation is needed, and George and I would like to know what that was so we can know what remedy is really needed.
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 10:26:06 PM »

Why Authiodinitist is advocating censorship...  Evidently, someone said something that stung him and made him feel that tighter moderation is needed, and George and I would like to know what that was so we can know what remedy is really needed.

Then he should PM George or yourself to express his concern, rather than publicly proclaim the indefencable position of advocating censorship.
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 10:33:51 PM »

OH NO! Someone's feelings might have been hurt on an internet message board !!  Shocked

How can that be?  Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 10:37:36 PM »

To all concerned: please show kindness toward our brother Authodionitist while we on the Moderator team work to resolve this issue.  I'm concerned that the uncharitable response I see coming from more than one of you may have already driven him away from this forum.
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 10:45:01 PM »

Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.

The people responding to his call for increased censorship have, on the average, over 2500 posts EACH and years invested in this board.

He aint gettin nothin but attitude from me! (as if I give anything else)  Wink



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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 10:53:27 PM »

Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.

The people responding to his call for increased censorship have, on the average, over 2500 posts EACH and years invested in this board.

Thanks a lot for reminding me how much time I have wasted here, now I'm depressed. (You should be more sensitive of my feelings Grin)
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 10:56:27 PM »

Thanks a lot for reminding me how much time I have wasted here, now I'm depressed. (You should be more sensitive of my feelings Grin)

Hey, that's okay.

BTW I was sent a nasty PM from the moderator who calls himself "Doofus" He says that I am being mean and MUST STOP!  Cheesy 

Let the censorship begin!
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2007, 11:07:57 PM »

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Or perhaps more in the spirit of this thread:

'To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list.' -- John Aikin
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »

Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
"Censorship" may not be exactly what authioditionist means (and btw, I'm not sure that authioditionist is a "he"). This is what I am trying to ascertain by this post. If people could just remain calm and not react to trigger words so violently that people become afraid to say anything, perhaps we can find out what authioditionist actually means.
Could we please try LISTENING to others for a change, and trying to clarify what they mean before over-reacting to what we think they mean?

Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.
So? The forum is not the exclusive property of frequent posters.
Stop treating the forum like a beehive to be protected by the swarm against "intruders".

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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 11:27:27 PM »

Stop treating the forum like a beehive to be protected by the swarm against "intruders".

No, that is not my point. My point is that, statistically speaking, his sample is too small.

In other words, he has not been posting long enough to make that type of determination.
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 11:31:36 PM »

No, that is not my point. My point is that, statistically speaking, his sample is too small.

In other words, he has not been posting long enough to make that type of determination.
That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2007, 11:33:10 PM »

Sorry to see any poster leave, even me on the three or four times I have in the past  Roll Eyes

Apparently he has quit (Signature says something like "I no longer post here")

I think I know was his complaint was. Not sure it rose to the level on needing censorship or even moderation, but the last couple of days have been slow ones here in OCnetLand. I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2007, 11:36:28 PM »

That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."

I say Unless You Post, it don't count!

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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2007, 11:39:39 PM »

I say Unless You Post, it don't count!
Opinion noted.

Sorry to see any poster leave, even me on the three or four times I have in the past  Roll Eyes

Apparently he has quit (Signature says something like "I no longer post here")

I think I know was his complaint was. Not sure it rose to the level on needing censorship or even moderation, but the last couple of days have been slow ones here in OCnetLand. I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.
Well said, and I agree with every single point.
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2007, 12:35:08 AM »

If anyone feels that there is an ad hominem attack or something unwarrented then please, please use the Report to Moderator Button!  It is at the bottom of each post on the right hand side.  If that does not work for you, then send either a pm to the board's moderator or to myself of Cleveland.  We try to catch things that are over the top, but this is a huge forum and we cannot catch everything; furthermore, something may be offencive, but we may not realise it or it may be something special that warrents individual attention. 

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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2007, 01:31:23 AM »

That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."

I think TomS has a valid point, it's not so much how long one has read the forum as how long one has participated and actually interacted (there's a huge difference between reading and interacting). I never really made a suggestion (or perhaps I should say demand, since he left when he didn't get his way) of this sort until I was well over a thousand posts into this mess, and even then if I recall properly I simply made a general condemnation of this very matter, censorship: while reasserting the legal right of Anastasios to do as he sees fit I simply argued that censorship is inherently immoral (pretty much the same thing I did here). But, of course, I would apply this equally to everyone, everyone regardless of how absurd I personally believe that everyone has a moral (if not legal or natural) right to post their opinion; the OP basically wanted to impose his opinion on everyone prohibiting open discussion and disagreement, I do believe there is a fundamental difference here.

I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.

It's by no means the most fun of issues, but as you say, it's been slow...and it is more interesting than debating the details of liturigcs or custom.

Quote
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.

To an extent I agree, but I am also of the opinion that people need to learn to be tolerant of different ideas in the context of debate and/or discussion. If you have a problem with a position, explain your problem, defend your position, and listen to the other person. As the quote from Mill I posted above suggests, you can only benifit from the experience, either you will realize the error of your ways and embrace truth, or you will better understand the truth by having a clearer perception of truth produced by its collision with error. So I quote again:

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2007, 01:43:27 AM »

^^ I agree. How can you seriously get bent out of shape on an internet forum.. Huh I believe in the free flow of ideas and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want. Everyone brings different view points to the table and this should be respected and upheld. If not, what's the point of a discussion forum? If you don't understand or respect such principles, then maybe you are more suited to be a far - left wing professor on a campus that has 'speech codes' lol... Wink
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 01:52:44 AM »

^^ I agree. How can you seriously get bent out of shape on an internet forum.. Huh I believe in the free flow of ideas and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want. Everyone brings different view points to the table and this should be respected and upheld. If not, what's the point of a discussion forum? If you don't understand or respect such principles, then maybe you are more suited to be a far - left wing professor on a campus that has 'speech codes' lol... Wink

WOW...we actually agree. Has this ever happened before? Wink
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 02:01:02 AM »

I say we censor all mispelled words.  Grin
  Busted !! I REALLY mis teh spel chek!
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 03:21:45 AM »

I believe in the free flow of ideas
So do I.

and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want.
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 03:33:56 AM »

I think a general review of the principles discussed in this thread, now stuck to the top of the FFA section, may be a good thing.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11808.0.html

With the free flow of ideas comes the responsibility to use our freedom in the Spirit of Christian love.
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 12:21:12 PM »

Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

If I had a vote, I'd say "no"  Wink

I wish though that Authio would come back and explain what was meant. I'm trying to understand what was the cause.

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 12:55:18 PM »

Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

Many forums have a good solution to spam and such without censoring anything. They simply have a 'junk' forum where all such posts are transferred, browse at your own risk.
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2007, 01:41:41 PM »

Quote
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2007, 02:44:57 PM »

ISTM that many of those who cry the loudest for unbridled freedom to speak are often the most irresponsible in their use of the freedom they already have.  Which is more important, to assert your rights or to love your neighbor as yourself?
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2007, 03:45:30 PM »

ISTM that many of those who cry the loudest for unbridled freedom to speak are often the most irresponsible in their use of the freedom they already have.

It would make sense that those who best understand the value of freedom would make the most use of the same. Sorry we do not all share your vision of Orwellian dystopia.

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Which is more important, to assert your rights or to love your neighbor as yourself?

Love cannot be coerced, if it is not free it is not love. Thus, I assert that the postulate is more vital than the conclusion. How could one answer that anything is of greater concern than liberty?

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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2007, 12:36:55 AM »

Just a few thoughts. I personally have no complaints in regard to how I have been treated here. I have posted on other Orthodox internet sites over the last few years. As a woman I have been treated relatively well by most posters. Ironically, the only time I was harassed was by another woman who wanted to have a catfight. I won't play that game. But I have noticed that men can be quite harsh with one another on the various Orthodox sites. Some men use their writing skills to tear down other men. Bullying with attitude, condescension or intellectual haughtiness is not Christian.

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.
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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 12:43:37 AM »

\

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.

Very well said! 
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 12:50:53 AM »

Just a few thoughts. I personally have no complaints in regard to how I have been treated here. I have posted on other Orthodox internet sites over the last few years. As a woman I have been treated relatively well by most posters. Ironically, the only time I was harassed was by another woman who wanted to have a catfight. I won't play that game. But I have noticed that men can be quite harsh with one another on the various Orthodox sites. Some men use their writing skills to tear down other men. Bullying with attitude, condescension or intellectual haughtiness is not Christian.

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.

Sorry you feel left out...I don't mean to discriminate. If you make a few stupid posts I'll be sure to treat you the same as everyone else. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2008, 05:58:17 PM »

Huh I'm a moderator of this forum. Should I not moderate to ensure forum rules and policy are adhered to?

I don't believe that was the source of objection; the source of objection was the pretense that you held some moral high ground while engaging in an inherently immoral act (censorship).

That you have a legal right to moderate <cough>or censor</cough> information on this form is obvious as it is privately held, not supported by public funds, and not likely to affect the economic status of those involved. But there's no need to try to claim some moral right, the absence of which is equally obvious.
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« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2008, 06:14:04 PM »

I don't believe that was the source of objection; the source of objection was the pretense that you held some moral high ground while engaging in an inherently immoral act (censorship).

That you have a legal right to moderate <cough>or censor</cough> information on this form is obvious as it is privately held, not supported by public funds, and not likely to affect the economic status of those involved. But there's no need to try to claim some moral right, the absence of which is equally obvious.

I see. So basically, what you consider to be "moral" is a forum with no rules, no policies, in which anyone can post whatever they want, including advertising pornography, ad hominems, hate mail etc.. Well, if that's the case, why do you hang around GIC? Why don't you vote with your feet and simply start a "no boundaries/no guidelines/no policies forum"? Isn't it a moral obligation on your part to do so? Or are you a hypocrite who just likes to mouth off and take the higher moral ground?
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« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2008, 06:28:38 PM »

an inherently immoral act (censorship). 

Lol.  Inherently immoral, eh?  That's about as subjective a standard as I've seen on the site.
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« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2008, 08:36:29 PM »

I see. So basically, what you consider to be "moral" is a forum with no rules, no policies, in which anyone can post whatever they want, including advertising pornography, ad hominems, hate mail etc.. Well, if that's the case, why do you hang around GIC? Why don't you vote with your feet and simply start a "no boundaries/no guidelines/no policies forum"? Isn't it a moral obligation on your part to do so? Or are you a hypocrite who just likes to mouth off and take the higher moral ground?

I have posted on such boards in the past and they actually work quite well. They simply have a 'spam forum' where things like advertising, pronography, hate mail, etc. are moved; though they are still publicly available; as for ad hominems, we never really had a problem with them, they were just a rhetorical tool used in a debate, though they must be used carefully lest they backfire.

As for why I don't leave this board because of its imperfections, well there are two reasons really. First, it's a far better board than most of related subject matter, Anastasios did a great job in providing a more enlightened vision of open debate and communication that can be found in many religious communities. Secondly (really more of a corollary to the first point), like with society there are advantages and detriments, for example this country has laws against use of certain types of drugs, while I consider these laws immoral, as they infringe unnecessarily upon personal freedom, I see no reason to leave this society, it's better than most (if not all) others which are guilty of greater injustices (generally in addition to the one mentioned). Of course, I will voice my opinion against unjust laws and if for this I am forced out of this society, that is to say exiled or killed, then so be it...the freedom of expression is worth that and much more. Likewise, here on a far less significant scale, I remain because I generally like the board; I will of course voice my objection to various injustices and if that gets be banned, then so be it. I have not sacrificed any personal values and that is, to me, what matters.

As for being a hypocrite, yes, of course I am...most people are. But my hypocracy does have its bounds, which is the essence of what I said above.
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« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2008, 08:38:29 PM »

Lol.  Inherently immoral, eh?  That's about as subjective a standard as I've seen on the site.

Is saying that censorship is inherently immoral subjective? Well, of course it is. Any system of philosophy, morality, or religion is inherently subjective insofar as it lacks absolute proofs. Though, while perhaps subjective in the strictest understanding of the word, in the context of our society and our founding political philosophy it is a rather well established value and certainly worthy of note.
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« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2008, 08:55:53 PM »

Is saying that censorship is inherently immoral subjective? Well, of course it is. Any system of philosophy, morality, or religion is inherently subjective insofar as it lacks absolute proofs. Though, while perhaps subjective in the strictest understanding of the word, in the context of our society and our founding political philosophy it is a rather well established value and certainly worthy of note. 

Censorship is generally accepted in various areas of our society, to greater and lesser degrees, from restrictions on movies based on age (can't get into theaters for certain movies if you're below age X), to restrictions on print media (not permitted to make false statements about a person), to restrictions on information (classified documents that are delayed for public consumption, and some documents that will never be seen).  Stating that is is widely accepted as being immoral per se seems a bit disingenuous.  Saying that censorship of one's personal opinion (that does not lead to harming of someone else) is considered to be immoral may be closer to the popularly accepted position.
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« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2008, 08:58:34 PM »

in the context of our society and our founding political philosophy it is a rather well established value and certainly worthy of note.
From the society which brought you the Westboro Baptist Church and uses public funds to pay the wages of Fred Phelps and his wife in their positions in the Kansas Department of Corrections......... Roll Eyes
May be it's because I live in a moral backwater, but I really can't see the "morality" in forcing people in a society to pay the salaries of those who openly insult them and their loved ones and their society and seek to destroy it.
I'm quite happy to live here in a society which both values free speech and has anti-vilification laws to ensure it is not used to harm those who live in the society.
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« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2008, 02:01:37 AM »

Censorship is generally accepted in various areas of our society, to greater and lesser degrees, from restrictions on movies based on age (can't get into theaters for certain movies if you're below age X),

That's a self-imposed restriction of the industry, it does not have the force of law.

Quote
to restrictions on print media (not permitted to make false statements about a person),

Slander and libel are the one area where we have traditionally maintained a degree of restriction on speech, and even then it's a civil matter; however, we vastly improved on the system found in England and have numerous restrictions that protect; the person claiming slander or libel has the burden to prove the statement is indeed false, that it should be reasonably expected that the person giving the statement is knew it was fase false, that it was not simply the expression of an opinion, in reference to public figures malice must be proven (otherwise negligence), that the statement is believable, and that the person being slandered had enough of a reputation to be slandered; and our supreme court in California has even ruled that third parites that promulgate a sladerous or libelous statement are protected under the First Amendment, thus making them immune from lawsuits.

And even with all these restrictions, the courts and especially the Supreme Court has remained very hesitant about applying these laws and doubtful of their constitutionality, with the high courts generally ruling against them. The Supreme Court avoided the issue for around 150 years because they knew the constitutional implications and simply did not wish to apply them. And I would agree that these types of laws should be struck down as unconstitutional.

Quote
to restrictions on information (classified documents that are delayed for public consumption, and some documents that will never be seen).

This is one case that is relatively recent, until WWI classified documents during time of peace were nearly non-existent and even then it was relatively rare until WWII and the Cold War. Though this has become somewhat accepted in the past few decades, mostly due to fear of nuclear war with the USSR, from the perspective of American society over the last 225 years it would indeed be unpopular and its constitutionality is doubtful.

Quote
Stating that is is widely accepted as being immoral per se seems a bit disingenuous.  Saying that censorship of one's personal opinion (that does not lead to harming of someone else) is considered to be immoral may be closer to the popularly accepted position.

I don't think it is disingenuous, you gave a few examples of failings in our law which tend to be quite unpopular, in general our society will condemn censorship as immoral. And, of course, the type of speech that we are discussing censoring here is not libel or pronography or classified military documents, it is personal opinion related to religion, so regardless of your opinion about the exceptions listed, my statement that the censorship being discussed is immoral is quite consonant with the prevailing philosophy of our society today.
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« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2008, 02:14:16 AM »

From the society which brought you the Westboro Baptist Church and uses public funds to pay the wages of Fred Phelps and his wife in their positions in the Kansas Department of Corrections......... Roll Eyes

They are paid for the work they perform in the course of their employment by the state, which is entirely independent of their religious views. Or do you believe we should have a religious litmus test for those who are to be employed by the state; heck, while Congress is at it, why shouldn't the majority party include in the law that establishes that membership in their party is required for employment by or benefits from the state? We could even monitor votes to make sure these people vote along party lines. Roll Eyes

Quote
May be it's because I live in a moral backwater, but I really can't see the "morality" in forcing people in a society to pay the salaries of those who openly insult them and their loved ones and their society and seek to destroy it.

I do pray your society becomes more enlightened.

Quote
I'm quite happy to live here in a society which both values free speech and has anti-vilification laws to ensure it is not used to harm those who live in the society.

'When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.'

-- Martin Niemöller

Personally, I would prefer to make my stand at defending the rights of those at the fringe of society and if we can stop the incursion of tyranny there we can keep ourselves safe from the same. I think the Phelps' and those like them are evil and vile people, who I despise in every way. But I would willingly give my life to protect their right to say such vile, evil, and hurtful things, to protect their freedom of speech.

'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
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« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2008, 02:25:03 AM »

do you believe we should have a religious litmus test for those who are to be employed by the state
Funny, I don't think I mentioned religion.
I was talking about the Civics of our Civil Servants, not their religion.

But I would willingly give my life to protect their right to say such vile, evil, and hurtful things, to protect their freedom of speech.

'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
I see you as a very principled person GiC; and in my experience principled people are the most dangerous people on the face of the earth. Islamist suicide bombers are principled people. Hitler and Göring were principled people. The Phelps are principled people.
Principled people value principles above people. They use the now debunked "top-down" approach to ethics. Get with the times and study some more up to date philosophy.
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« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2008, 02:27:54 AM »

GiC,

You do realize, however, that OC.net is privately owned and that you therefore have only as much freedom of speech as the site's owners and those to whom they delegate their authority are willing to allow you?  You should know this, since you chose of your own free will to join our community.  The free speech protections of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution have limited authority here, though I do think you should be very grateful for the amount of freedom to speak your mind you are granted here by the site owners, admins, and moderators.
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« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2008, 03:23:51 AM »

GiC,

You do realize, however, that OC.net is privately owned and that you therefore have only as much freedom of speech as the site's owners and those to whom they delegate their authority are willing to allow you?  You should know this, since you chose of your own free will to join our community.  The free speech protections of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution have limited authority here, though I do think you should be very grateful for the amount of freedom to speak your mind you are granted here by the site owners, admins, and moderators.

Did you read the post which started this discussion?

I don't believe that was the source of objection; the source of objection was the pretense that you held some moral high ground while engaging in an inherently immoral act (censorship).

That you have a legal right to moderate <cough>or censor</cough> information on this form is obvious as it is privately held, not supported by public funds, and not likely to affect the economic status of those involved. But there's no need to try to claim some moral right, the absence of which is equally obvious.
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« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2008, 03:32:37 AM »

Funny, I don't think I mentioned religion.
I was talking about the Civics of our Civil Servants, not their religion.

Oh, I covered that as well...the part about non-party members being denied employment by the state under your system (or at least under your system as it has been implemented in the past); it's the same general idea.

Quote
I see you as a very principled person GiC; and in my experience principled people are the most dangerous people on the face of the earth. Islamist suicide bombers are principled people. Hitler and Göring were principled people. The Phelps are principled people.

Yes, it is dangerous when people think for themselves...sometimes they accomplish wonderful things such as the Enlightenment, other times not so wonderful things such as Nazism. But in the end the accomplishments of the western world can be associated with such people, be it Galileo or Voltaire, so in the balance it seems to be a positive thing.

Quote
Principled people value principles above people. They use the now debunked "top-down" approach to ethics. Get with the times and study some more up to date philosophy.

Debunked? How can a field as subjective as ethics have a theory debunked? All that can happen is a rise or fall in popularity. I am personally quite happy with the enlightenment philosophy of the 17th century, the results of which speak for themselves: the rise of the western world, the establishment of the moral basis of all free societies, the advancement of a colonial backwater to the status of the world's only superpower, the virtual elimination of slavery, the emancipation of women, need I go on?
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« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2008, 03:59:04 AM »

I am personally quite happy with the enlightenment philosophy of the 17th century,
I know.
That's the problem.

about non-party members being denied employment by the state under your system
I have no idea what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

the results of which speak for themselves:
Fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, the medicalization of homosexuality, the oppression of women in the 1950's, the rise of consumerism......
the rise of the western world,
Great. A new Empire to replace the previous Empire, which replaced the previous Empire..........I'm not sure how you can prove that this is somehow a "moral good" unlike the rise of the Ottomans or the Rise of the Greeks, or the rise of the Phonecians, or the rise of the Romans etc- none of which were the result of the Enlightenment.

the establishment of the moral basis of all free societies,
So your proof of what is morally good is how much it is adopted? Interesting criterion.

the advancement of a colonial backwater to the status of the world's only superpower,
Which is a moral good because....? Is it a moral good because:
1) Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day?
2) The GDP of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world’s countries) is less than the wealth of the world’s three richest people combined?
3) Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names?
4) Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen?
5) 51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations?
6) The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation?
7) 20% of the population in the developed nations, consume 86% of the world’s goods?
8 ) The top fifth of the world’s people in the richest countries enjoy 82% of the expanding export trade and 68% of foreign direct investment — the bottom fifth, barely more than 1%?
9) In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much?
10) The developing world now spends $13 on debt repayment for every $1 it receives in grants?
11) A few hundred millionaires now own as much wealth as the world’s poorest 2.5 billion people?

No?
Then tell me: Why should a nation becoming a superpower be considered a moral good? I guess with a 17th century mindset, you can be excused for thinking so.
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« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2008, 04:25:25 AM »

^ Wish you'd copy that into Private area so I can get into it later today.
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« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2008, 04:41:59 AM »

^ Wish you'd copy that into Private area so I can get into it later today.

But this isn't about politics. It's about morality. In particular, it's an attempt to bring GiC out of the morality of the "Golden Age" 17th century and into the 21st.
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« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2008, 04:47:27 AM »

I know.
That's the problem.

Only to those adverse to the concept of liberty.

Quote
I have no idea what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

You know very well what I am talking about, you wish to establish a philosophical/political criteria for employment by the state, you do recall the example you used, don't you? My statement is that this is no different than reqiring party membership for state employment.

Quote
Fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, the medicalization of homosexuality, the oppression of women in the 1950's,

All of which arose either in opposition to or as a reaction against the ideals of the enlightenment; and all of which were eventually corrected by following the ideals of the enlightenment.

Quote
the rise of consumerism......

I think it's great that our economic philosophy has contributed so much to the advancement of our economy and the general wealth of the nation that this is even a viable possibility.

Quote
Great. A new Empire to replace the previous Empire, which replaced the previous Empire..........I'm not sure how you can prove that this is somehow a "moral good" unlike the rise of the Ottomans or the Rise of the Greeks, or the rise of the Phonecians, or the rise of the Romans etc- none of which were the result of the Enlightenment.

So the west, consisting of dozens of states, is now an 'empire' akin to Greece or Rome? Imperialism is, in fact, quite contrary to the ideals of the enlightenment, economic and political, which was more concerned with free trade and a degree of isolationism in foreign policy, which was, in many ways, a reaction against Imperialism. In fact the first country founded on the ideals of the enlightenment was formed by rebelling against an Empire and the next country by overthrowing it's monarchy.

Quote
So your proof of what is morally good is how much it is adopted? Interesting criterion.

The point being that the freedom enjoyed in the west is a direct result of the enlightenment, without which we would have remained, philosophically, in the darkness of the middle ages.

Quote
Which is a moral good because....? Is it a moral good because:
1) Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day?
2) The GDP of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world’s countries) is less than the wealth of the world’s three richest people combined?
3) Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names?
4) Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen?
5) 51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations?
6) The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation?
7) 20% of the population in the developed nations, consume 86% of the world’s goods?
8 ) The top fifth of the world’s people in the richest countries enjoy 82% of the expanding export trade and 68% of foreign direct investment — the bottom fifth, barely more than 1%?
9) In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much?
10) The developing world now spends $13 on debt repayment for every $1 it receives in grants?
11) A few hundred millionaires now own as much wealth as the world’s poorest 2.5 billion people?

Well, rather than take the time to reply to every point indivdually (it's getting close to bed time), I can observe that your points are essentially divided into two main categories: dichotomy between the developed and undeveloped world and dichotomy between the upper and lower classes in the developed world.

As for the dichotomy between the developed and undeveloped world, I think that demonstrates my point; the countries that adopted the political and economic philosophies of the enlightenment have advanced far beyond the other countries of the world, the ideals of liberty, self-determination, and free markets (and a state that upholds them) are essential to the advancement of a nation or people.

Or, if you want to start using religious notions of morality, those who have embraced the truth of the enlightenment have been blessed and have prospered, while those who have rejected it are paying the price of their iniquities through hardship and oppression. Wink

As for the dichotomy between the upper and lower classes, it should first be noted that this dichotomy is greater in the undeveloped and unenlightened world than in the developed world. Secondly, it is not that the poor have become poorer, they have become wealthier and have come to enjoy a higher standard of living. At the same time the rich have likewise continued to increase their wealth, it may be true that the upper classes have been more successful at increasing their standard of living, but the important point is that standard of living has increased for everyone. While the poor may not be making the same gains as the rich, they certainly arn't loosing out.

Quote
Then tell me: Why should a nation becoming a superpower be considered a moral good? I guess with a 17th century mindset, you can be excused for thinking so.

In and of itself, it is not. However, as this rise from colonial backwater to a superpower (which affords its citizens some of the highest incomes, standards of living, and degrees of freedom in the world) is the result of the philosophy of the enlightenment, it can be objectively observed that this philosophy is beneficial and has lead to the advancement and progress of those who have embraced it.
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« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2008, 04:49:26 AM »

But this isn't about politics. It's about morality. In particular, it's an attempt to bring GiC out of the morality of the "Golden Age" 17th century and into the 21st.

As opposed to your morality which seems to have a marxist economic spin and fascist policy towards freedom of expression and thought? Boy, that would be an improvement.
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« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2008, 05:01:20 AM »

As opposed to your morality which seems to have a marxist economic spin and fascist policy towards freedom of expression and thought?
It only "seems" that way to you because you have no other frame of reference other than the morality of the 17th century. Wink
Current moral theory is no longer about "principles" or "ideologies"; it's about collective agency.
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« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2008, 05:13:54 AM »

My statement is that this is no different than reqiring party membership for state employment.
As in the case of.......?

As for the dichotomy between the developed and undeveloped world, I think that demonstrates my point; the countries that adopted the political and economic philosophies of the enlightenment have advanced far beyond the other countries of the world, the ideals of liberty, self-determination, and free markets (and a state that upholds them) are essential to the advancement of a nation or people.
Which is why New Zealand is such a dominant world power I guess....and has the highest rate of mental illness per capita in the world.

Or, if you want to start using religious notions of morality, those who have embraced the truth of the enlightenment have been blessed and have prospered, while those who have rejected it are paying the price of their iniquities through hardship and oppression. Wink
Ah, why didn't you tell me before that you held the Prosperity Theology of the Fundamentalist Evangelicals? That makes a lot more sense. I can see where your morality comes from now.
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« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2008, 05:18:59 AM »

But this isn't about politics. It's about morality. In particular, it's an attempt to bring GiC out of the morality of the "Golden Age" 17th century and into the 21st.

Which is why I said "copy", and not move. This has too many political system aspects which you can't explore here.

Yes, I know about our own Voltaire's views, and you'll go political.
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« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2008, 05:20:27 AM »

It only "seems" that way to you because you have no other frame of reference other than the morality of the 17th century. Wink
Current moral theory is no longer about "principles" or "ideologies"; it's about collective agency.

'Collective agency' eh, sounds like my assessment as it being a mix of marxist and fascist philosophy was right on. Wink

I see little value to any moral theory that is not rooted in individualism. And for a more objective take, it is individualism that is at the heart of the progress of western civilization over the past 300 years; the results of collectivism speak for themselves: theocracy, communism, and fascism.
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« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2008, 05:27:35 AM »

sounds like
Yeah, well it will continue to "sound like" and "seem like" the only things you are familiar with until you actually do some study.
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« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2008, 05:29:13 AM »

As in the case of.......?

Quote
From the society which brought you the Westboro Baptist Church and uses public funds to pay the wages of Fred Phelps and his wife in their positions in the Kansas Department of Corrections.........

Quote
Which is why New Zealand is such a dominant world power I guess....and has the highest rate of mental illness per capita in the world.

Well, take your pick, would you rather live in New Zealand or [insert third world country uninfluenced by the enlightenment here].

Quote
Ah, why didn't you tell me before that you held the Prosperity Theology of the Fundamentalist Evangelicals? That makes a lot more sense. I can see where your morality comes from now.

Close, but not quite...you forgot the other pillar of my theology: 'God helps those who help themselves.'
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« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2008, 05:34:30 AM »

Which is why I said "copy", and not move. This has too many political system aspects which you can't explore here.

Yes, I know about our own Voltaire's views, and you'll go political.
Feel free to copy anything you want into the politics forum and start a thread.
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« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2008, 05:43:25 AM »

As in the case of.......?

Quote
From the society which brought you the Westboro Baptist Church and uses public funds to pay the wages of Fred Phelps and his wife in their positions in the Kansas Department of Corrections.........
I'm sorry GiC, you've still lost me. What I'm asking for is examples of
non-party members being denied employment by the state under your system (or at least under your system as it has been implemented in the past)
Which party? What system of mine are you talking about which I have impimented in the past?

Well, take your pick, would you rather live in New Zealand or [insert third world country uninfluenced by the enlightenment here
. Well, if I had my druthers, I'd love to live in Morocco.

Close, but not quite...you forgot the other pillar of my theology: 'God helps those who help themselves.'
That's actually part of the same theology.
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« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2008, 05:47:19 AM »

Yeah, well it will continue to "sound like" and "seem like" the only things you are familiar with until you actually do some study.

Yes, yes, I've read about it before it is an attempt to compromise between collectivism and individualism by recognizing the autonomous individual agent while simultaneously conceding some ethical standing to the collective agent. But the collective agent is inherently evil, it is by its nature the supression of the individual, if unchecked by individualism it will logically result in some form of despotism, be it imposed by a minority as in communist states or by a majority as in a theocracy.

Government is a necessary evil that results from the size and unwieldiness of modern societies. But it is an evil and t is always a most dangerous thing to attribute to it any ethical standing. If liberty is to be secured for any notable length of time it must live in a state of fear of the individual. Thus the strength of Constitutionalism, at least as our founding fathers envisioned it, the collective agent is not trusted and is restricted by the very document that gives it its existence...the individual is held to be superior to the collective.

Now, for a short period of time, as the republics of Europe have demonstrated, it may be possible to allow the individual agent and the collective agent to maintain a balance of power during a time of security and prosperity, but at the whim of the mob, which is easily moved by economic hardship or irrational fear, the balance can be destroyed, and the collective will come to dominate the individual. This is exactly what happened in 1933 in Germany, economic hardship caused a slight shift in the balance of power and the collective came to dominate the individual. The only way to prevent this is to subordinate the collective to the individual, which is the essence of individualism.
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« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2008, 05:53:00 AM »

Feel free to copy anything you want into the politics forum and start a thread.
Naw, forget it. Too much fun watching you two go at it here- one playing baseball while the other plays cricket, may look similar but not.
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« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2008, 05:53:05 AM »

I'm sorry GiC, you've still lost me. What I'm asking for is examples of Which party? What system of mine are you talking about which I have impimented in the past?

Well, you personally didn't implement it, but the policy of restricting employment based on political beliefs has been seen in the past. It was quite common in the USSR for communist party members to receive the better paying easier jobs than those outside of the party. Certainly Islamic fundamentalist states will give preference to moslems over non-moslems (which, in the context of a theocracy, is essentially a political party).

Quote
. Well, if I had my druthers, I'd love to live in Morocco.

So long as you're an upper middle class outsider who doesn't have to make a living there.

Quote
That's actually part of the same theology.

Only if you believe that God actively operates in the world, which I don't.
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« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2008, 05:55:45 AM »

Naw, forget it. Too much fun watching you two go at it here- one playing baseball while the other plays cricket, may look similar but not.

Is that why he threw the ball in the dirt four times and looked perplexed when I started walking to first base? Wink
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« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2008, 06:01:51 AM »

Naw, forget it. Too much fun watching you two go at it here- one playing baseball while the other plays cricket, may look similar but not.
LOL Cheesy
I know. It's interesting, especially if your aiming for the stumps and he's running to first base!
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« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2008, 06:09:21 AM »

Well, you personally didn't implement it, but the policy of restricting employment based on political beliefs has been seen in the past. It was quite common in the USSR for communist party members to receive the better paying easier jobs than those outside of the party. Certainly Islamic fundamentalist states will give preference to moslems over non-moslems (which, in the context of a theocracy, is essentially a political party).
So in fact it's not "my system" at all, nor anything which would survive my moral criteria.

So long as you're an upper middle class outsider who doesn't have to make a living there.
Actually, I was planning on smoking hash from a hubble-bubble while making money out of selling pirated DVD's in a Marrakesh street market, but your idea is good as well. Cheesy

Only if you believe that God actively operates in the world, which I don't.
And I wouldn't expect anything else from a 17th century Deist. Wink
I'm quite happy in the 21st century thanks!
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« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2008, 10:26:45 AM »

I don't think it is disingenuous, you gave a few examples of failings in our law which tend to be quite unpopular, in general our society will condemn censorship as immoral. And, of course, the type of speech that we are discussing censoring here is not libel or pronography or classified military documents, it is personal opinion related to religion, so regardless of your opinion about the exceptions listed, my statement that the censorship being discussed is immoral is quite consonant with the prevailing philosophy of our society today. 

So what about the FCC?  I think many people approve the work of a body which regularly practices censorship through its regulations, and which enforces said regulations through fines and revocation of licenses.  There is censorship of content on Television (the most popular form of traditional media in the United States), censorship of content on the Radio, etc.  And while you may assert that movie ratings and the like are self-regulations, I think they do have the force of law (I can't recall, but I think a child sneaking into a rated "R" movie can be removed - however, this may just be an exercise in the enforcement of "tresspassing" laws).

There is also a degree to which there is censorship of ideas if/when the expression of said ideas causes serious damage to another person's property.

Now, as to the "immoral censorship" of OrthodoxChristianity.net - what exactly do we censor here?  We will edit certain words which are generally socially unacceptable for reasonable dialogue (i.e. cuss words), which is probably the most common form of censorship in the U.S., and probably the form that has the fewest objections.  We also edit certain words which some here find personally offensive and derogatory towards their particular group, which is also a common form of censorship in the U.S., only in a more extreme sense in the form of "hate speech;" it is highly unlikely that anyone using said undesirable words here at OC.net is engaging in "hate speech," however part of the reasoning (only part) behind the two are the same.  We also will to a certain degree also edit references to competing fora or to blogs links that have nothing to do with the threads they are in; normally, however, all that is involved is removal of the link, not a total removal of the name or the general reference, and we do permit such references to be made privately.  Finally, we censor any speech that is illegal and would cause OC.net and/or its owners to face prosecution.  This is a degree of self-protection that anyone could and should find reasonable - the censorship is essentially practiced by the law, and we wish to be in compliance.

As for personal censorship - it is very limited in practice, only applying to those who have violated forum rules on multiple occasions (or on one occasion violated them egregiously), and the only posts that we actually Deny access to public eyes are those that would again violate the rules.

You may consider this censorship to be immoral, and you have that right - heck, we'll even let you debate it in public with members of the staff here.  However, we try our best not to stifle the personal opinions of people here, even when they don't jibe with our belief-set (ahem - you've been the beneficiary of such restraint on our parts many times, right?); we'll even let pass the posts of people who are on "Post Moderation" that do not fit into our religious or ideological worldview - it's their opinion; if people think it's ridiculous, they'll call them out on it.
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« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2008, 12:19:56 PM »

So in fact it's not "my system" at all, nor anything which would survive my moral criteria.

'Your system' is appropriate short-hand for 'the system, which you advocate.'

Quote
Actually, I was planning on smoking hash from a hubble-bubble while making money out of selling pirated DVD's in a Marrakesh street market, but your idea is good as well. Cheesy

 Cheesy

Quote
And I wouldn't expect anything else from a 17th century Deist. Wink

Nor should you. Wink But, as I'm sure you're aware, the 21st century equivalent to a 17th century Deist is an Atheist.

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I'm quite happy in the 21st century thanks!

As am I, but the reason I am happy in the 21st century is because we have developed a society based on the moral and ethical ideals of the 17th century enlightenment.
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« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 12:45:21 PM »

But, as I'm sure you're aware, the 21st century equivalent to a 17th century Deist is an Atheist.
Atheism is so last year.
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« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 12:56:02 PM »

Atheism is so last year.

Nah, it has simply evolved into indifferentism...religion, or the lack thereof, just isn't important enough to concern oneself with anymore.
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« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2008, 01:02:04 PM »

Nah, it has simply evolved into indifferentism...religion, or the lack thereof, just isn't important enough to concern oneself with anymore.
Which is a real step towards Orthodoxy (See J.S. Romanides).
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« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2008, 01:10:23 PM »

Which is a real step towards Orthodoxy (See J.S. Romanides).

As in signature line below:
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« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2008, 01:16:40 PM »

^That's the one. (make sure you don't ever change your sig line so that this thread will make sense!)
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« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2008, 01:18:08 PM »

How's this, for posterity's sake:

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

(on 1/31/2008 this was Αριστοκλής sig line)
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« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2008, 01:22:20 PM »

Thanks. I need to start using it on my Protestant boards - they'll 'love it'.
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« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2008, 04:04:54 PM »

Which is a real step towards Orthodoxy (See J.S. Romanides).

Perhaps, my kind of Orthodoxy anyways. Wink
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« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2008, 05:26:15 PM »

Perhaps, my kind of Orthodoxy anyways. Wink

Did you come up with a name for it yet? 
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« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2008, 05:59:44 AM »

I know this is a stale thread, but my lack of/infrequent involvement in this site has been due to the harshness and unOrthodox graceless personal attacks I keep seeing here.

And what needs to be added is St. Paul's warning and admonition that some people should be "silenced" for they are "upsetting the faith of others". So there really is a quite clear moral responsibility for Orthodox priests and forum moderators to actively censor others when they are rude or aggressive. Some censorship is Orthodox. in fact, the rules here should be just the same as in a local parish. Allowing free-for-all that disturbs people's honest faith is not Orthodox praxis.

Please moderators, consider this next you review the site rules... the kind of approach of GiC and others, and the toleration of their bad behaviour, is why I currently can NOT recommend this site to others, even though I would dearly like to be able to.

I would hope that things change. Having spoken to various archpriests and bishops about this, and heard their deep concerns about the unOrthodox lack of censorship in general on websites, I hope things change soon, lest more people's faith is damaged. It is a hard thankless task being a moderator. May God strengthen moderators!

in Christ,
Fr. John D'Alton
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« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2008, 07:28:12 AM »

Could somebody please explain the problem?

This is one of the most amiable forums I've been on (although I've only been in the Politcal sections a few times) and I honestly don't see bullying as a problem here.

Veniamin, I agree. The people of Tibet should know the Truth that they may then be truly free!
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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2008, 07:46:34 AM »

I know this is a stale thread, but my lack of/infrequent involvement in this site has been due to the harshness and unOrthodox graceless personal attacks I keep seeing here.

And what needs to be added is St. Paul's warning and admonition that some people should be "silenced" for they are "upsetting the faith of others". So there really is a quite clear moral responsibility for Orthodox priests and forum moderators to actively censor others when they are rude or aggressive. Some censorship is Orthodox. in fact, the rules here should be just the same as in a local parish. Allowing free-for-all that disturbs people's honest faith is not Orthodox praxis.

Please moderators, consider this next you review the site rules... the kind of approach of GiC and others, and the toleration of their bad behaviour, is why I currently can NOT recommend this site to others, even though I would dearly like to be able to.

I would hope that things change. Having spoken to various archpriests and bishops about this, and heard their deep concerns about the unOrthodox lack of censorship in general on websites, I hope things change soon, lest more people's faith is damaged. It is a hard thankless task being a moderator. May God strengthen moderators!

in Christ,
Fr. John D'Alton


Father,

Your post is interesting to me.  I have several questions for you, if you don't mind. 

1.  How many posts have you read, in general, on the site?  (approximate)
2.  What exactly is orthodox discression?
3.  Define "diakrisis"
4.  Define how one can attain "diakrisis" based on your decision
5.  If Christ didn't want to upset the faith of others...he failed.  He upset a lot of people by showing them the real faith.  Some might even say by "stirring the pot" he showed people how to "think outside the box" and see the truth.  Any comments? 

There are many more questions I would like to ask, but I think this is a good beginning.  Thank you! 
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« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2008, 08:22:14 AM »

Hi Serb1389,

thanks for your questions.
I've read hundreds of posts, maybe thousands.
diakrisis is judgement/discernemnt, which is sometimes quite right for Orthodox. But condemnation of fellow orthodox and harsh criticism of bishops based on either hearsay or gossip is not Orthodox :-) Which is what i have seen several times. (I'm not saying I ever saw you do this.)

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote from St. Paul to Titus. How is that different to what our Lord said? Read and you will see that sometimes its orthodox to censor false teachers and harsh people. Yes Jesus upset people. But that is different to not stumbling others which our Lord also warned against. make sense??

Learning discernment does not require being exposed to rudeness nor unorthodox language and behaviour.

in Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2008, 01:40:45 PM »

Actually, it would seem to me that the Bishops are treated with kid gloves on this site (well, all save His All-Holiness the Oecumenical Patriarch). But, if they think otherwise, perhaps they should be content with the fact that those of us who know the most damaging things about them prefer not to share them in public. I could think of several far worse things to say, all of which are quite true, than I have ever read on OC.net. In the end openness and transparency would probably be good things, it would be healthy for the Church to expose all her secrets and make known her scandals...fortunately I know of a few priests who are actively involved in exposing that which needs to be exposed and there's a good chance they may just blow the whole thing wide open in the next few years.

But on a more philosophical level, if what you believe is true, shouldn't it prevail? I have no need of censorship and control of information to advance my ideology, why should you? What are you hiding? The truth should be self-evident and vanquish all falsehood brought against it.

I would submit that an ideology that must use censorship to defend itself is not worth defending.
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« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2008, 03:56:57 PM »

Dear Fr John,

I am trying to understand your point. If GisC was part of your parish, would you tell him to no longer come to your Church?  What would you do if were a blood relative?

Thanks,

Anastasios
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« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2008, 08:58:16 PM »

I think Fr. John's point is that people are often willing to make responces on the board that they would probably not make in a face to face meeting.  AND that it is sometimes not very nice. Sometimes the shy are bolder- which is a great thing Grin. But sometimes a person is blunter or a bit more agressive or insulting than is normal- which is human Embarrassed. This is a well established phenomenom of the internet. (No, I don't have the studies handy to quote.  Smiley ) Being common place does not make it acceptable behavior. That is why forums need moderators in the first place.
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« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2008, 01:11:19 AM »

Hi Serb1389,

thanks for your questions.


Father,

Thank you very much for your response.  It is much appreciated.  The reason I asked my questions was because it is always good in debate and discussion to know where the other person is coming from, at least philosophically/idealistically. 

Quote
I've read hundreds of posts, maybe thousands.

I asked because sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves with representative statements.  I am glad to know that this is not the case. Not that it would have made too much of a difference to me.  I'm the kind of guy who'll hear you out even if you havn't read a single page.  It definitely makes a difference in the conversation though. 

Quote
diakrisis is judgement/discernemnt, which is sometimes quite right for Orthodox. But condemnation of fellow orthodox and harsh criticism of bishops based on either hearsay or gossip is not Orthodox :-) Which is what i have seen several times. (I'm not saying I ever saw you do this.)

I saw no malice in your statements, but thank you for that last clarification.  Condemnation and pointing out faults are separate things in my mind.  Now, at the same time, flippant discussion is also not warranted in my mind. 

You wrote: 
Quote
So there really is a quite clear moral responsibility for Orthodox priests and forum moderators to actively censor others when they are rude or aggressive. Some censorship is Orthodox. in fact, the rules here should be just the same as in a local parish. Allowing free-for-all that disturbs people's honest faith is not Orthodox praxis.

That is why I asked you what diakrisis is.  They are using their diakrisis as moderators of this forum in the most "pastoral" way they know how.  As this is their forum (their church) it is up to their individual "diakrisis" to enforce that which they feel is more right.  And even MORE SO, the idea of conciliarity is at its finest here.  There is not just one person making the decisions but rather a council of people. 

Quote
I'm not sure you understood what I wrote from St. Paul to Titus. How is that different to what our Lord said? Read and you will see that sometimes its orthodox to censor false teachers and harsh people. Yes Jesus upset people. But that is different to not stumbling others which our Lord also warned against. make sense??

As far as I can remember from my church history the only people who have been censored were the arch-heretics.  So unless we are ready to take up a full tribunal of members on this board, this categorization may be extreme. 

Also, I am not sure that I DID understand your quote, because my mind let me immediately to other passages in scripture. Also in the history of the church those who had opposing views were always allowed to voice their opinions, and then the apologetics would begin.  No one was silenced for being rude or harsh.  If they are a stumbling block then the real apologists need to step it up and show the true faith beyond them.  Would you not say that this is more consistent with our church history? 

Quote
Learning discernment does not require being exposed to rudeness nor unorthodox language and behaviour.

We can really get very nitty gritty here.  Rudeness in what sense?  Part of the issue is that some people on the site truly make others question their faith, as opposed to being blind and only seeing it their way.  They may have used unorthodox language to say that.  But so did Athanasius when he used the word hypostasis.  Then in 362 he said that it is not about the terms but the thoughts behind the terms.  So unorthodox language...I don't buy it. 

As for behavior.  What is orthodox behavior?  What they practice in Alexandria?  Constantinople?  In your back yard? 

As you can see there are a lot of questions here and ideas.  I am not trying to pick you apart, only trying to understand what you are saying.  There is an obvious gap here b/c we are speaking online.

Please answer at your own discression.  No rush.  It is holy week after all. 


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« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2008, 09:36:11 PM »

I bet he's seen some of my posts. Hehe.
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