Author Topic: Increased Censorship  (Read 14609 times)

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Offline authio

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Increased Censorship
« on: June 22, 2007, 05:05:42 PM »
I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box.  Of course, there's always the plague and problem of ad hominems, but we try to overcome those as time goes on.

A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

Thank you,
Authio
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 05:10:04 PM »
I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box.  Of course, there's always the plague and problem of ad hominems, but we try to overcome those as time goes on.

A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

Thank you,
Authio

You want increased censorship? That's just sick, there's nothing else to it. (And no, dont mistake this as an ad hominem, it's a general disgust with the concept of censorship and dislike anyone who would hold the concept of liberty in such contempt as to advocate it...nothing personal)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Schultz

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 05:15:33 PM »
I'm just curious as to what you feel needs to be censored? 
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Offline authio

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 05:23:28 PM »
dislike anyone who would hold the concept of liberty in such contempt as to advocate it...

"Some are created more equal than others" ~Animal Farm by George Orwell

I think the abuse of liberty to bully, harass, or otherwise diminish one's personal struggle with the Lord [which is one of the reasons why this forum is here and is the cause of many of the posts on this forum] by some "more equal" through the uncharitable use of rhetoric is a threat to humanity.



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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 05:38:41 PM »
I still don't undestand what you're getting at. I'm especially confused by your quoting of Orwell, since you seem to be advocating that which Orwell was so briliantly and rightly criticising in that book.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 05:39:07 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 06:03:18 PM »
I still don't undestand what you're getting at. I'm especially confused by your quoting of Orwell, since you seem to be advocating that which Orwell was so briliantly and rightly criticising in that book.

And he's complaining about the abuse of rhetoric ???
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 06:22:21 PM »
I think the abuse of liberty to bully, harass, or otherwise diminish one's personal struggle with the Lord [which is one of the reasons why this forum is here and is the cause of many of the posts on this forum] by some "more equal" through the uncharitable use of rhetoric is a threat to humanity.

Authiodionitist,

I understand your concern, though, as one whose role as a Moderator would require me to help enact this censorship you seem to want, I don't quite agree with your desire.  I may be new to the Mod team, but I have been visiting this forum quite often for quite a while, which gives me some perspective regarding the intent behind this forum.  I'm sure the site Admins Anastasios and Fr. Chris could communicate their vision for the OC.net discussion forum even better than I can, but I do know that we try to maintain an online community environment where people are free to speak their minds and their hearts without feeling threatened or abused.  Yes, some people do like to use this forum to belittle others or will get angry and flame other posters on occasion--your OP seems to indicate that you're somewhat sensitive to this and have felt the bite of other posters' rhetoric, and if I have contributed in any way to you being stung, I beg you to forgive me.  But overall, I don't see how increased censorship would make this forum any better than it already is.  I think the Admins and Moderators have a great vision for OC.net, and I look forward to sharing in their ministry.

- Peter
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 08:27:19 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 07:50:09 PM »
A barrier to this forum's continued usefulness in discussing broader or extremely specific trends in the Orthodox Church today is a lack of relevant censorship except in extreme circumstances of "ad hominem" slander.  I would like to see censorship take an increased role here.

authiodiontist,

I'm trying to understand what you perceive as a problem. Do you mean by this quote above that you see a form of ad hominem attacks in threads discussing contemporary issues in the Orthodox Church which are not being corrrected?

It's very difficult to look at possible problems unless we are clear and all understand what the possible problem is. Perhaps you would like to pm a moderator or an admin with a specific example of what you mean.

George
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 09:21:42 PM »
You gotta be kiddin me !!! Cencorship is already over the top on OCnet. I agree with GiC .It is si......






             *** Edited to prevent cencorship ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:25:26 PM by Mo the Ethio »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 09:27:26 PM »
Can we at least find out exactly what the problem is before ripping out jugulars?  :)
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 09:39:19 PM »
You gotta be kiddin me !!! Cencorship is already over the top on OCnet. I agree with GiC .It is si......
             *** Edited to prevent cencorship ;)

I say we censor all mispelled words.  ;D
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 09:54:35 PM »
I say we censor all mispelled words.  ;D

The mods would have to quit their day jobs. :D
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 10:12:55 PM »
Can we at least find out exactly what the problem is before ripping out jugulars?  :)

Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 10:15:47 PM »
I enjoy OC.net insofar as it helps me go outside my own box. 

Perhaps you should reconsider leaving your own little box? The real world just might be too much for you.  ::)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 10:16:05 PM by TomS »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2007, 10:21:50 PM »
Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
Why Authiodinitist is advocating censorship...  Evidently, someone said something that stung him and made him feel that tighter moderation is needed, and George and I would like to know what that was so we can know what remedy is really needed.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 10:24:36 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 10:26:06 PM »
Why Authiodinitist is advocating censorship...  Evidently, someone said something that stung him and made him feel that tighter moderation is needed, and George and I would like to know what that was so we can know what remedy is really needed.

Then he should PM George or yourself to express his concern, rather than publicly proclaim the indefencable position of advocating censorship.
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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 10:33:51 PM »
OH NO! Someone's feelings might have been hurt on an internet message board !!  :o

How can that be?  :D

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 10:37:36 PM »
To all concerned: please show kindness toward our brother Authodionitist while we on the Moderator team work to resolve this issue.  I'm concerned that the uncharitable response I see coming from more than one of you may have already driven him away from this forum.
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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 10:45:01 PM »
Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.

The people responding to his call for increased censorship have, on the average, over 2500 posts EACH and years invested in this board.

He aint gettin nothin but attitude from me! (as if I give anything else)  ;)



« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 10:45:42 PM by TomS »

Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 10:53:27 PM »
Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.

The people responding to his call for increased censorship have, on the average, over 2500 posts EACH and years invested in this board.

Thanks a lot for reminding me how much time I have wasted here, now I'm depressed. (You should be more sensitive of my feelings ;D)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 10:54:04 PM by greekischristian »
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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 10:56:27 PM »
Thanks a lot for reminding me how much time I have wasted here, now I'm depressed. (You should be more sensitive of my feelings ;D)

Hey, that's okay.

BTW I was sent a nasty PM from the moderator who calls himself "Doofus" He says that I am being mean and MUST STOP!  :D 

Let the censorship begin!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 10:56:58 PM by TomS »

Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2007, 11:07:57 PM »
'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Or perhaps more in the spirit of this thread:

'To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list.' -- John Aikin
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »
Come on George, he's adovcating censorship, what more do we need to know?
"Censorship" may not be exactly what authioditionist means (and btw, I'm not sure that authioditionist is a "he"). This is what I am trying to ascertain by this post. If people could just remain calm and not react to trigger words so violently that people become afraid to say anything, perhaps we can find out what authioditionist actually means.
Could we please try LISTENING to others for a change, and trying to clarify what they mean before over-reacting to what we think they mean?

Let's put things in perspective -- The guy has 187 posts.
So? The forum is not the exclusive property of frequent posters.
Stop treating the forum like a beehive to be protected by the swarm against "intruders".

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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 11:27:27 PM »
Stop treating the forum like a beehive to be protected by the swarm against "intruders".

No, that is not my point. My point is that, statistically speaking, his sample is too small.

In other words, he has not been posting long enough to make that type of determination.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 11:31:36 PM »
No, that is not my point. My point is that, statistically speaking, his sample is too small.

In other words, he has not been posting long enough to make that type of determination.
That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2007, 11:33:10 PM »
Sorry to see any poster leave, even me on the three or four times I have in the past  ::)

Apparently he has quit (Signature says something like "I no longer post here")

I think I know was his complaint was. Not sure it rose to the level on needing censorship or even moderation, but the last couple of days have been slow ones here in OCnetLand. I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.
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Offline TomS

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2007, 11:36:28 PM »
That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."

I say Unless You Post, it don't count!


Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2007, 11:39:39 PM »
I say Unless You Post, it don't count!
Opinion noted.

Sorry to see any poster leave, even me on the three or four times I have in the past  ::)

Apparently he has quit (Signature says something like "I no longer post here")

I think I know was his complaint was. Not sure it rose to the level on needing censorship or even moderation, but the last couple of days have been slow ones here in OCnetLand. I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.
Well said, and I agree with every single point.
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Offline dantxny

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2007, 12:35:08 AM »
If anyone feels that there is an ad hominem attack or something unwarrented then please, please use the Report to Moderator Button!  It is at the bottom of each post on the right hand side.  If that does not work for you, then send either a pm to the board's moderator or to myself of Cleveland.  We try to catch things that are over the top, but this is a huge forum and we cannot catch everything; furthermore, something may be offencive, but we may not realise it or it may be something special that warrents individual attention. 

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« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 12:35:39 AM by dantxny »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2007, 01:31:23 AM »
That's ridiculous. A poster's number of posts is no reflection of how long they have been reading the forum. So the variable you are using is producing false statistics. "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."

I think TomS has a valid point, it's not so much how long one has read the forum as how long one has participated and actually interacted (there's a huge difference between reading and interacting). I never really made a suggestion (or perhaps I should say demand, since he left when he didn't get his way) of this sort until I was well over a thousand posts into this mess, and even then if I recall properly I simply made a general condemnation of this very matter, censorship: while reasserting the legal right of Anastasios to do as he sees fit I simply argued that censorship is inherently immoral (pretty much the same thing I did here). But, of course, I would apply this equally to everyone, everyone regardless of how absurd I personally believe that everyone has a moral (if not legal or natural) right to post their opinion; the OP basically wanted to impose his opinion on everyone prohibiting open discussion and disagreement, I do believe there is a fundamental difference here.

I tired of the homosexual issue re-argument (How many times have we gone through that one?) and went off to a Protestant board for some more meaty discussions.

It's by no means the most fun of issues, but as you say, it's been slow...and it is more interesting than debating the details of liturigcs or custom.

Quote
We long time posters really need to consider those less active folks and newbies who don't know us well, as well as possible in cyberland. Sometimes in our banter we assume that everyone knows we're playing or just taking a position to be an advocate for argument's sake.

To an extent I agree, but I am also of the opinion that people need to learn to be tolerant of different ideas in the context of debate and/or discussion. If you have a problem with a position, explain your problem, defend your position, and listen to the other person. As the quote from Mill I posted above suggests, you can only benifit from the experience, either you will realize the error of your ways and embrace truth, or you will better understand the truth by having a clearer perception of truth produced by its collision with error. So I quote again:

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill
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Offline Nacho

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2007, 01:43:27 AM »
^^ I agree. How can you seriously get bent out of shape on an internet forum.. ??? I believe in the free flow of ideas and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want. Everyone brings different view points to the table and this should be respected and upheld. If not, what's the point of a discussion forum? If you don't understand or respect such principles, then maybe you are more suited to be a far - left wing professor on a campus that has 'speech codes' lol... ;)
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 01:52:44 AM »
^^ I agree. How can you seriously get bent out of shape on an internet forum.. ??? I believe in the free flow of ideas and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want. Everyone brings different view points to the table and this should be respected and upheld. If not, what's the point of a discussion forum? If you don't understand or respect such principles, then maybe you are more suited to be a far - left wing professor on a campus that has 'speech codes' lol... ;)

WOW...we actually agree. Has this ever happened before? ;)
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 02:01:02 AM »
I say we censor all mispelled words.  ;D
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 03:21:45 AM »
I believe in the free flow of ideas
So do I.

and people should be able to express themselves in the manner they want.
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 03:23:26 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 03:33:56 AM »
I think a general review of the principles discussed in this thread, now stuck to the top of the FFA section, may be a good thing.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11808.0.html

With the free flow of ideas comes the responsibility to use our freedom in the Spirit of Christian love.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 03:34:22 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 12:21:12 PM »
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

If I had a vote, I'd say "no"  ;)

I wish though that Authio would come back and explain what was meant. I'm trying to understand what was the cause.

Ebor
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 12:55:18 PM »
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

Many forums have a good solution to spam and such without censoring anything. They simply have a 'junk' forum where all such posts are transferred, browse at your own risk.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Nacho

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2007, 01:41:41 PM »
Quote
Does this include spam, trolling, abuse, rudness, bullying and harassment?
Does this include allowing postrers to take over the board and continually hijack threads with the same old boring rubbish they always do?

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2007, 02:44:57 PM »
ISTM that many of those who cry the loudest for unbridled freedom to speak are often the most irresponsible in their use of the freedom they already have.  Which is more important, to assert your rights or to love your neighbor as yourself?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 02:46:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2007, 03:45:30 PM »
ISTM that many of those who cry the loudest for unbridled freedom to speak are often the most irresponsible in their use of the freedom they already have.

It would make sense that those who best understand the value of freedom would make the most use of the same. Sorry we do not all share your vision of Orwellian dystopia.

Quote
Which is more important, to assert your rights or to love your neighbor as yourself?

Love cannot be coerced, if it is not free it is not love. Thus, I assert that the postulate is more vital than the conclusion. How could one answer that anything is of greater concern than liberty?

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« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 03:47:12 PM by greekischristian »
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Tamara

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2007, 12:36:55 AM »
Just a few thoughts. I personally have no complaints in regard to how I have been treated here. I have posted on other Orthodox internet sites over the last few years. As a woman I have been treated relatively well by most posters. Ironically, the only time I was harassed was by another woman who wanted to have a catfight. I won't play that game. But I have noticed that men can be quite harsh with one another on the various Orthodox sites. Some men use their writing skills to tear down other men. Bullying with attitude, condescension or intellectual haughtiness is not Christian.

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.

Offline dantxny

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 12:43:37 AM »
\

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.

Very well said! 
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I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 12:50:53 AM »
Just a few thoughts. I personally have no complaints in regard to how I have been treated here. I have posted on other Orthodox internet sites over the last few years. As a woman I have been treated relatively well by most posters. Ironically, the only time I was harassed was by another woman who wanted to have a catfight. I won't play that game. But I have noticed that men can be quite harsh with one another on the various Orthodox sites. Some men use their writing skills to tear down other men. Bullying with attitude, condescension or intellectual haughtiness is not Christian.

Anyway, I know it may be hard for some men to do but try to be sensitive to newcomers (especially on the convert board). Some come here as inquirers to Orthodoxy. Others come as trembling catechumens who have sinful pasts they are trying to work through. If all they receive here is perceived as debate and bullying when they ask questions they will think twice about posting again. Not everyone has a thick armor of steel to repel some of the attitudes that comes across by some of the posters here. And don't tell me that if they can't take it they shouldn't post. This is an Orthodox Christian site and it should be a welcoming environment.

Sorry you feel left out...I don't mean to discriminate. If you make a few stupid posts I'll be sure to treat you the same as everyone else. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline GiC

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2008, 05:58:17 PM »
??? I'm a moderator of this forum. Should I not moderate to ensure forum rules and policy are adhered to?

I don't believe that was the source of objection; the source of objection was the pretense that you held some moral high ground while engaging in an inherently immoral act (censorship).

That you have a legal right to moderate <cough>or censor</cough> information on this form is obvious as it is privately held, not supported by public funds, and not likely to affect the economic status of those involved. But there's no need to try to claim some moral right, the absence of which is equally obvious.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:01:35 PM by greekischristian »
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Increased Censorship
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2008, 06:14:04 PM »
I don't believe that was the source of objection; the source of objection was the pretense that you held some moral high ground while engaging in an inherently immoral act (censorship).

That you have a legal right to moderate <cough>or censor</cough> information on this form is obvious as it is privately held, not supported by public funds, and not likely to affect the economic status of those involved. But there's no need to try to claim some moral right, the absence of which is equally obvious.

I see. So basically, what you consider to be "moral" is a forum with no rules, no policies, in which anyone can post whatever they want, including advertising pornography, ad hominems, hate mail etc.. Well, if that's the case, why do you hang around GIC? Why don't you vote with your feet and simply start a "no boundaries/no guidelines/no policies forum"? Isn't it a moral obligation on your part to do so? Or are you a hypocrite who just likes to mouth off and take the higher moral ground?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:14:45 PM by ozgeorge »
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