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Author Topic: Dialogue Regarding the Status of the MOC  (Read 2397 times) Average Rating: 0
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macedonia74
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« on: June 19, 2007, 04:42:06 PM »

{GM's note: This thread was split off from the topic "Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead" http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11820.0.html - Cleveland}


Unsubstantiated accusations removed.

Warned for making unsubstantiated accusations against Orthodox heirarchs and failing to produce evidence to support these accusations despite repeated requests.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 11:47:13 AM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 10:45:23 PM »

One last thing.  I used to be a moderator here and I know there are special rules in the FFA and I happen to think Ozgeorge is one of the best mods here, but I really hope that we are not condoning accusations of theft, betrayal and a travelling circus of one of our Orthodox Hierarchs.
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 06:27:10 AM »

I can provide the public rebuttles if you wish, proof if you will.

MODERATION:
Chris (macedonia74),
You have 24 hours from the time of this post to present your proof in this thread that Prisoner of Conscience, Zoran Vranishkovski known as Archbishop Jovan of Ohrid, recognised as a Prisoner of Conscience by Amnesty International, is guilty of the crimes you have accused him of on this forum. If you cannot present this proof, I would ask you to retract your accusations.
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 12:15:08 PM »

MODERATION:
Chris (macedonia74),
You have 24 hours from the time of this post to present your proof in this thread that Prisoner of Conscience, Zoran Vranishkovski known as Archbishop Jovan of Ohrid, recognised as a Prisoner of Conscience by Amnesty International, is guilty of the crimes you have accused him of on this forum. If you cannot present this proof, I would ask you to retract your accusations.
George


Excuse the translation, it was done hastily, but the Macedonian is intact. I am also in the process of searching for actual court proceedings, but do not know if archives have been put on Internet as of yet:

Letter written by Deacon Tony Petrusevski – Deacon in the Macedonian Orthodox Church – 
...the donation that was deposited in an account under my name... (Unsubstantiated accusations removed.)....
Deacon Tony Petrusevski
Saint Nikole, Macedonia


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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 12:50:14 PM »

Letter written by Deacon Tony Petrusevski – Deacon in the Macedonian Orthodox Church – 
...the donation that was deposited in an account under my name... (Unsubstantiated accusations removed.)....
Deacon Tony Petrusevski
Saint Nikole, Macedonia

(I removed the original Macedonian to shorten the block quote.)

After reading through that, it seems to be nothing more than someone else's accusations offered as proof of the substance of your own.  Merely repeating accusations doesn't prove them; offer us something substantive.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 01:02:43 PM »

(I removed the original Macedonian to shorten the block quote.)

After reading through that, it seems to be nothing more than someone else's accusations offered as proof of the substance of your own.  Merely repeating accusations doesn't prove them; offer us something substantive.

Well, I think the burden of proof was on the Bishop, and since he was already tried, convicted, served his time, and now released, it would be difficult for you to put that burden upon me. In essense, I was asked to provide proof as if I had made this whole situation up when in actuality it took place in the Court system.

In any case, it's rather easy to character 'assasinate' in the internet age, and quite frankly, anyone can get into Amnesty International since it doesn't take too long to pull the heart strings of a liberal, especially when romance is involved. This is not to claim that there are not legitimate cases presented there.

Finally, I am hoping to locate actual court proceeding material, but since in the mind of the 'other side' Macedonian Courts equal 'banana' courts, I think these would be useless also ...

BESIDES, now that I think of it, SouthernSerb also made outlandish claims that a certain politician or politicians, somehow, forced Macedonian Bishops not to accept the Nis working agreement. I asked for substative proof, but no moderator tact a nice green message regarding this ... WOW, I guess bearing false witness only pertains to M74. (Except it seems I have more proof, even if not from amnesty international, than others.)
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 04:22:49 PM »

Agreement violated, ink remains

Authorized representatives of Macedonian Orthodox Church signed an agreement in Nis in 2002 on the constitution of the Autonomous Archdiocese of Ochrid; then, under pressure from the state, they changed their mind. The Serbian Orthodox Church, nevertheless, continued to work in the spirit of the Nis Agreement

The Serbian Orthodox Church, especially since the collapse of Communism and the arrival of Patriarch Pavle at its head, has been trying in every possible day to resolve the issue of schism with the dioceses in the [Former Yugoslav] Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). It has sent appeals and asked for the help of other local [Orthodox] churches. Many meetings have been held - both in Serbia and Montenegro with representatives of the dioceses which seceded.

These meetings contributed to an agreement finally being reached in Nis on May 17, 2002 on the resolution of the schism and the establishment of eucharistic unity between the Serbian Patriarchate and the Episcopate in the Republic of Macedonia.

According to this agreement, the Serbian Orthodox Church recognizes "the broadest Church autonomy" of the existing dioceses in the Republic of Macedonia. Only the most essential connections presumed by autonomy were kept, two of which were significant as well as symbolic: the election of the head of the Church in Macedonia was to be confirmed by the Serbian Patriarch, and that this head mentions the Serbian Patriarch first during Liturgy.

It was even agreed that the present name of Macedonian Orthodox Church (MOC) be used in internal official communication between the two.


Despite a huge media campaign and protests by Macedonian state officials against the Nis Agreement, it was expected that the other side would accept it. All the more so because, in the meanwhile, five out of the seven Macedonian bishops had accepted it! However, by May 28 the members of the [so-called] Macedonian Orthodox Church had organized a press conference where, obviously under pressure from state officials and media, they relativized the draft agreement they had signed. Their explanation, as relayed by the media, was as follows: "A working document was signed in Nis according to which the MOC would accept autonomous status with a possible change in name to the Archdiocese of Ochrid; however, the final solution will be proclaimed by the heads of the two churches upon signing the proposed version of the agreement."

The only one who subsequently adopted and signed the Nis Agreement was the Metropolitan of Veles and Povardarje, Jovan. And this was to become the reason for his persecution in every way possible.

Although it was not accepted by the Macedonian side, the Serbian Orthodox Church continued to act in the spirit of the Nis Agreement.

After the hierarchs in the Republic of Macedonia continued to persist in schism, the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church at its regular May session in 2003 passed a decision on the constitution of the Holy Synod of the Autonomous Archdiocese of Ochrid. On that occasion, two new bishops of the Archdiocese of Ochrid were also elected: Joakim and Marko. At the same time, Metropolitan Kiril of Polog and Kumanovo, who spearheaded support of the schism, was "placed under prohibition of conducting religious service, suspended from administering a Diocese and canonical proceedings were initiated against him" by the Assembly.

At the autumn session of the highest body of the Serbian Orthodox Church the same year, the Holy Assembly of Bishops annulled every act of the schismatic hierarchs in the Republic of Macedonia relating to the Patriarchal Exarch of the Autonomous Archdiocese of Ochrid, Kyr Jovan, "passing other relevant decisions regarding the same issue in the spirit of catholic (universak) order of Orthodoxy".

From the webpage of the Diocese of Raska and Prizren.  http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2005/August_17/2.html
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 04:25:38 PM »

BESIDES, now that I think of it, SouthernSerb also made outlandish claims that a certain politician or politicians, somehow, forced Macedonian Bishops not to accept the Nis working agreement. I asked for substative proof, but no moderator tact a nice green message regarding this ... WOW, I guess bearing false witness only pertains to M74. (Except it seems I have more proof, even if not from amnesty international, than others.) 

Well, I suppose that SouthSerb's claims could use a bit of backing up, but they differed from yours in that yours was targeted (a) at a named individual, which means that it could be considered (b) libel, unless you back it up.  His meanwhile were targeted at an anonymous group, and thus don't fall into that category.  Add to this the fact that your accusation was against a hierarch of the church, and the explanation for the green text is complete.

Now, if one were to make claims about one of your bishops in the same way, then we would demand proof as well.  Sometimes things slip by (like how many people get to take pot-shots at the EP without being called out on it, which I absolutely hate), but otherwise we're trying to be fair to our Church leaders as much as we can, even if we don't agree with them (as many of us don't agree with yours and vice-versa).
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 06:48:24 PM »

Well, I suppose that SouthSerb's claims could use a bit of backing up, but they differed from yours in that yours was targeted (a) at a named individual, which means that it could be considered (b) libel, unless you back it up.  His meanwhile were targeted at an anonymous group, and thus don't fall into that category.  Add to this the fact that your accusation was against a hierarch of the church, and the explanation for the green text is complete.

Now, if one were to make claims about one of your bishops in the same way, then we would demand proof as well.  Sometimes things slip by (like how many people get to take pot-shots at the EP without being called out on it, which I absolutely hate), but otherwise we're trying to be fair to our Church leaders as much as we can, even if we don't agree with them (as many of us don't agree with yours and vice-versa).

How is it possible for me to be making something up about a person who  was already: accused, tried, convicted, served, and released, and it to be considered libel? I didn't make this up, I am merely repeating what took place.

I post something, it gets shot down as one man's accusation, yet this man, (Unsubstantiated accusations removed)  ... what possible reason could I have to come on this forum and lie?

SouthernSerb posts something from a Website, and it's taken as cold, hard truth. And again, I ask which politician(s) pressured the MOC? Which "State Insitution"?

BuI mean this is an even bigger accusation than my own, and if it is true should be brought out. All I hear is these abstract accusations and scapegoating of some 'communist/state', which if anyone truly knew anything about Macedonia, would understand the outrageousness. No other country would have done anything different. Perhaps I should bring up the jailing of Father Nikodim, the Ethnic Macedonian Priest in Northern Greece? Should we bring the quasi-Church State that is Serbia?

(On the other hand, the Website posting even admits that the SOC required official change of our name and only allowed for the name Macedonian to be used internally between SOC and MOC. I mean who does this and why? What does the name have to do with anything and why would this even be part of the discussions? Futhermore, regardless of what was posted on the Kosovo website, no MOC Bishop had authority to decide there and then in Nis for the whole Synod. What is signed on one occasion by these Bishops must be brought for and approved by the Synod in Council, and then filtered throught the body.... are we claiming that the Macedonian faithful are the "State that pressured the Bishops"? )

And to conclude, how is it abstract claims and generalizations about the "Macedonian State and/or politicians" can be viewed with more legitimacy, than the names and situations that I posted, which I have good reason to believe are true? '

So in the end, you are left to prove not that my statements are false, rather what in the heck would be my motivation to come on this public forum, risk my character and lie?
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 07:00:37 PM »

Well, I think the burden of proof was on the Bishop, and since he was already tried, convicted, served his time, and now released,
No. The burden of proof remains with you to support your accusations and prove what the International Community believes is incorrect, namely, that Archbishop Jovan is a Prisoner of Conscience.

In essense, I was asked to provide proof as if I had made this whole situation up when in actuality it took place in the Court system.
No. You were asked to provide proof for your own accusations against the Archbishop. All that you have done so far is to repeat another's accusations.

In any case, it's rather easy to character 'assasinate' in the internet age,
Ain't that the truth!


How is it possible for me to be making something up about a person who  was already: accused, tried, convicted, served, and released, and it to be considered libel?
Our Lord Jesus Christ was accused, tried and convicted and served His sentence. Are you saying that He deserved it? Are you saying that it is not blasphemy and false accusation to say He was justifiably crucified? Did the Martyrs and Confessors justifiably deserve their fates?

12 hours remain. If you cannot provide proof for your accusations, I would strongly urge you to withdraw them. Dialogue is important in this situation, and making unsubstatiated accusations against other's Bishops is not dialogue. We don't dialogue with one another by desecrating what the other holds sacred. So please, for the sake of continuing dialogue, please either provide proof as requested or withdraw your accusations.
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 07:08:38 PM »

No. The burden of proof remains with you to support your accusations and prove what the International Community believes is incorrect, namely, that Archbishop Jovan is a Prisoner of Conscience.


No. You were asked to provide proof for your own accusations against the Archbishop. All that you have done so far is to repeat another's accusations.

The International Community, including the State Department, stated on the same token that Bishop Jovan was a bit over dramatic in his claims. Furthermore, the US State Departments' only qualm is with the law for registration for religious groups. This is pretty general don't you think.

One's own life experience isn't an accusation. Why don't you prove that what Deacon Toni wrote isn't the truth?




 Our Lord Jesus Christ was accused, tried and convicted and served His sentence. Are you saying that He deserved it? Are you saying that it is not blasphemy and false accusation to say He was justifiably crucified? Did the Martyrs and Confessors justifiably deserve their fates?


12 hours remain. If you cannot provide proof for your accusations, I would strongly urge you to withdraw them. Dialogue is important in this situation, and making unsubstatiated accusations against other's Bishops is not dialogue. We don't dialogue with one another by desecrating what the other holds sacred. So please, for the sake of continuing dialogue, please either provide proof as requested or withdraw your accusations.


It is also very unfortunate for people to utilize emotion, and contiually compare every hardship to the passion of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. That's pretty presumptuous of you and of (Unsubstantiated accusations removed) don't you think?

I actually take offense to this and would ask that you kindly retract this statement for blastpheming our Lord.

Oh and I see, I've been given the hour glass by the 'masters of dialogue' .... grand.
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 07:29:08 PM »

Chris,
Just step back a little from your emotional reactions if you can.
No one here would like to stop dialoguing with you. The painful situation between the MOC and Orthodoxy throughout the world needs dialogue. But you are not dialoguing. You have simply insulted an heirarch with accusations that SCOBA, the Oecumenical Patriuarchate, the SOC, have all said are false and have all written to demand the release of the heirarch they consider falsely accused. What you are saying is that the Oecumenical Patriarchate, SCOBA and the SOC are all wrong, and you are right. That's a big claim which demands big proof. Your personal opinion of Archbishop Jovan is entirely your own, and you are entitled to it, but if we are going to talk, lets not use childish insults of one another's heirarchs, and cowardly hide behind the claim that we are justified in doing so because the civil courts have. If Christians are now to decide guilt or innocence based on what the State says, then as I pointed out, Our Lord, the Martyrs and Confessors all deserved their fates.
All you can say is that the civil courts of Macedonia have condemned Archbishop Jovan. This is true. But if you want to say, as you have, that he has deserved this fate (in opposition to what the Orthodox Church throughout the world has said), then you are required to prove this, or withdraw it.
George

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 10:14:05 PM »

You know, I really don't want this to be a "gang up on M74 thread" but he has to understand you cannot just come here an insult a Hierarch of the Church and think it is okay.

Maybe it is not directly offensive to someone in the OCA or AOC because they do not know what is going on in the Balkans, but I think all Orthodox Christians stand together and agree that insulting Hierarchs is not the way to go.

Furthermore, I did not "point the finger" at any Hierarchs in your Church, but what I wrote is consistent with the facts as they panned out, don't you agree?

1.  Do you agree that your Bishops signed Nis?  (I think the answer is yes).

2.  Do you agree that the 4 Serbian Bishops believed they had an agreement?  (I think the answer is yes).

3.  Do you agree that the Macedonians only discarded the "proposed" agreement (as you say), when they came back to Macedonia?  (I think the answer is yes).

4.  Do you agree that after they presented this agreement to their Synod, it was rejected (even by the three who originally signed it as acceptable)?  (I think the answer is yes).

5.  Do you agree that only Archbishop Jovan agreed with the Nis agreement (from your Synod) in its original form, after your Bishops returned to Macedonia? (I think the answer is yes).

So, if you agree with 1-5, we agree in principle on everything that led up to the problems.

Your version is that Archbishop Jovan (the "place libelous phrases here) was guided by greed and ambition to split from his Church, is that correct?  (Again, I think it is yes).

My version is that your Hierarchs caved under political pressure.

On it's face, which seems more sensible to you?  Lets break them down...

If Archbishop Jovan was seeking power (the title of Archbishop I presume is what you mean), do you not think he could forsee what was about to happen to him?  In a "worldly" sense, how did he benefit?  He didn't.  He lost everything (again in a worldly sense).  He has been beaten up, harrassed, had his Churches vandalized and destroyed, and he was wrongly accused and convicted.

In a spiritual sense though, he gained everything.  He came back into communion with the Church and showed that to him his Orthodoxy is above it all.  He once said in an interview something to the effect of "I don't care to be a Serb or a Macedonian, I wish I could say I'm a Byzantine".  To me, that statement symbolizes a love for the "golden age" of our Church (if you will).

So, from a common sense point of view, your argument makes no sense.

Now, lets look at my argument.

If your Hierarchs took the same path as Archbishop Jovan, they would have undoubtedly been treated the same way.  They would have lost all worldly things important to them.  Undoubtedly, the government could have found any "Bishops" or "Priests" (a la schismatic self appointed Bishop in Montenegro) to tend to the Macedonian flock, alleging the old Hierarchs were agents of Serbia, hell bent destroying the Macedonian identity.  Would this argument fly in Macedonia?  100% yes.  I've been enough times to know, this is the golden argument at the present time.

Let me ask you one last question.

Why is the Macedonian identity more important than being in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy?  (When I ask that, don't think I don't know that a HUGE percentage of the Serbian population thinks being Serbian is more important than being Orthodox, but I want to know why you feel it is more important).

In any event, I keep trying to keep these posts free of insults or provocations, with the hope that we can find common ground and the insults to Church Hierarchs can stop.
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 10:16:17 PM »

One last thing (I forgot to add above).  COMECE also agrees that +Jovan is being persecuted http://www.maltachurch.org.mt/COMECE%20press/COMECE%20Archbishop%20Jovan%20in%20Macedonia.pdf

and M74 is only discussing the one time Archbishop was incarcerated.  He is noticeably silent on the "inciting hate" charge. 

If you would like, I'll quote from the Macedonian constitution to prove to you these are politically motivated charges.
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 11:14:51 PM »

Chris,
Just step back a little from your emotional reactions if you can.
No one here would like to stop dialoguing with you. The painful situation between the MOC and Orthodoxy throughout the world needs dialogue. But you are not dialoguing. You have simply insulted an heirarch with accusations that SCOBA, the Oecumenical Patriuarchate, the SOC, have all said are false and have all written to demand the release of the heirarch they consider falsely accused. What you are saying is that the Oecumenical Patriarchate, SCOBA and the SOC are all wrong, and you are right. That's a big claim which demands big proof. Your personal opinion of Archbishop Jovan is entirely your own, and you are entitled to it, but if we are going to talk, lets not use childish insults of one another's heirarchs, and cowardly hide behind the claim that we are justified in doing so because the civil courts have. If Christians are now to decide guilt or innocence based on what the State says, then as I pointed out, Our Lord, the Martyrs and Confessors all deserved their fates.
All you can say is that the civil courts of Macedonia have condemned Archbishop Jovan. This is true. But if you want to say, as you have, that he has deserved this fate (in opposition to what the Orthodox Church throughout the world has said), then you are required to prove this, or withdraw it.
George



Oz, it definitely possible fo SCOBA, the OP, among others to be wrong if they truly do not have all of the information. How many of you knew Bishop Jovan before the TOMOS and before Nis? Perhaps some, but not as much as members of his form flock. How many people have just taken what was given to them as matter of fact, and have sided with Bishop Jovan and the SOC only based upon the 'country club' mentality. I doubt if anyone has actually spoken to a Bishop, a Cleric, or a worshiper within the MOC about their opinion...

So, now we are not to respect our secular institutions? I cannot withdraw what I said since I would not be true to myself and my beliefs if I did. Besides what sort of dialogue are we to have if you assume everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie before I even say it?? It's fruitless really ...
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 11:37:49 PM »

Quote
Maybe it is not directly offensive to someone in the OCA or AOC because they do not know what is going on in the Balkans, but I think all Orthodox Christians stand together and agree that insulting Hierarchs is not the way to go.

On one hand we are to believe that universial condemnation of "what happend" to Bishop Jovan supercedes Civil Courts in Macedonia, and simultaneously admit their ignorance of what is going on in the same region?


Quote
Furthermore, I did not "point the finger" at any Hierarchs in your Church, but what I wrote is consistent with the facts as they panned out, don't you agree?

Not only did you point your fingers at the Hierachs of the MOC, you point your fingure at the faithful of the MOC, and the whole State of Macedonia with your generalized accusations ...


Quote
1.  Do you agree that your Bishops signed Nis?  (I think the answer is yes).

I agree that they signed a working document, which contents needed Synod approval and filtering through the Body of the Church.


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2.  Do you agree that the 4 Serbian Bishops believed they had an agreement?  (I think the answer is yes).

Actually, I find it hard to believe that the Serbian Bishops would believe the Macedonian Orthodox Synod and the Macedonian faithful would accept change to their Church name..

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3.  Do you agree that the Macedonians only discarded the "proposed" agreement (as you say), when they came back to Macedonia?  (I think the answer is yes).

No, not according to what was being reported to us by the Bishops. On every occaision, the MOC Bishops that took part in Nis informed Macedonia that what they put on paper has to be approved through Synodal Council and then filtered through the Church. There was not even a second when a MOC Bishop pretended to have such authority to make such changes on their own ...

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4.  Do you agree that after they presented this agreement to their Synod, it was rejected (even by the three who originally signed it as acceptable)?  (I think the answer is yes).

I'm not sure who said what at the Synod Council.

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5.  Do you agree that only Archbishop Jovan agreed with the Nis agreement (from your Synod) in its original form, after your Bishops returned to Macedonia? (I think the answer is yes).

According to reports from some MOC Bishops, Vladika Jovan kept quiet until the Synod came out with the decision, and then he objected. According to Bishop and faithful accounts, this was not the first time Jovan had tried to place himself in position of Archbishop, nor was it the first time he had financial troubles...


So, if you agree with 1-5, we agree in principle on everything that led up to the problems.

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Your version is that Archbishop Jovan (the "place libelous phrases here) was guided by greed and ambition to split from his Church, is that correct?  (Again, I think it is yes).

This isn't only my belief, but if you go to Macedonia and speak to his former flock, you would get the same response.

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My version is that your Hierarchs caved under political pressure.

Ok, this would be around the third or fourth consecutive time I would ask you whose political pressure are you talking about? How is it that I am not allowed to make accusatiosn that I have personal knowledge about, yet you can make such a generalized and abstract accusation without present proof?? Again, I would like moderators to give you 24 hours to provide proof of this, or retract your statement.


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If Archbishop Jovan was seeking power (the title of Archbishop I presume is what you mean), do you not think he could forsee what was about to happen to him?  In a "worldly" sense, how did he benefit?  He didn't.  He lost everything (again in a worldly sense).  He has been beaten up, harrassed, had his Churches vandalized and destroyed, and he was wrongly accused and convicted.

To be honest, I can't speak as to what was going on in his head. I do know that he was promised grand support from both the SOC and the GOC, and he received and still receives such monetary support. This was admitted both by the SOC and the GOC.

But on the flip side, are you telling me that SOC Bishops didn't know that the Macedonians would react the way they did with seeking to remove the Macedonian name from the Church? Are you telling me that the SOC did not expect the reaction to the TOMOS, instilling Bishop Jovan as Archbishop, and then name his 'church' with the name they did? Are you telling me they did this out of pastoral love for the Macedonians?

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In a spiritual sense though, he gained everything.  He came back into communion with the Church and showed that to him his Orthodoxy is above it all.  He once said in an interview something to the effect of "I don't care to be a Serb or a Macedonian, I wish I could say I'm a Byzantine".  To me, that statement symbolizes a love for the "golden age" of our Church (if you will).

Yes I know, how wonderful of him to state. And it only goes to reinforce the grand double standard regarding the name change in the Nis working agreement. I wonder if a Serbian Orthodox bishop or, perhaps a Greek Orthodox Bishop, would say the same thing? But of course, it is ok for them to be proud nationals ... oh yes I forgot, according to you Orthodox Bishops are oblivious to ethnicity and geneology...


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Why is the Macedonian identity more important than being in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy?  (When I ask that, don't think I don't know that a HUGE percentage of the Serbian population thinks being Serbian is more important than being Orthodox, but I want to know why you feel it is more important).

I would qualify this as to whose identity is not important to them. Again, the double standard and hypocracy amazes me, who doesn't have a national church, and whose Church in the region isn't Named Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian, or Greek?

And you still haven't answered why the name would even be a talking point in Nis? What the heck does our name have to do with Ecclesiastical matters regarding our communion?

And was it not St. Paul who said, "I am made everythig to everyone, to perhaps save some." ?? If it brings those who are not on the 'same level' of Savlation as you are to their salvation, why would Serbian Orthodox Bishops seek our name to be erased?



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« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:28:58 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 07:06:26 AM »

So, now we are not to respect our secular institutions? I cannot withdraw what I said since I would not be true to myself and my beliefs if I did. Besides what sort of dialogue are we to have if you assume everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie before I even say it?? It's fruitless really ...

You are not listening friend. No one has asked you to change your opinion about anything.  My exact words to you were:
Your personal opinion of Archbishop Jovan is entirely your own, and you are entitled to it, but if we are going to talk, lets not use childish insults of one another's heirarchs, and cowardly hide behind the claim that we are justified in doing so because the civil courts have.
All that has been asked of you is to present your evidence for the accusations you have made, and all you have presented are more accusations. Since you cannot substantiate your claims, you were asked to withdraw them. And no one has asked you to apologise for making them. But I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that posters will not make unsubstantiated accusations against hierarchs of the Orthodox Church, and particularly not an hierach who is recognised as being falsely accused; a recognition which is made by the Oecumenical Patriarchate, The Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America, The Church of Greece, The Patriarchate of Serbia, The Patriarchate of Moscow.
You have failed to provide the evidence requested.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:29:44 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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