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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox input on Islam  (Read 1873 times) Average Rating: 0
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_Seraphim_
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« on: June 18, 2007, 02:09:40 AM »

This video on YouTube is very interesting… it is titled:
“Muslim and Christian perception of God”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YUvJm2BAtw&session=q3PF0nV_A7lduB13VLAsLeHiyqZMdOWOIvwQ7-jYG5KJUuNsG6xjK-Ufkhe7u19mm8Eh67oPCV1yNm3dCINwD9lBmYNVdnuW-qCYfeYb6YTFFX-lyWUVFNtnknscVkEvRmOYDZyiwjb_qNX1iNU0vxZeKIaTN2qPwetZKZ4HPUcXQIJrLb23vVH1ktZdz6G9tZtrQnCwsQ6cyjXahPMIDZipqKym9x0_MJwD3TMYZbIBepsNfBZDpU07P_AqWXhj-Mpf-DmZfkyxt4KAcFjZnPCeXFnH1dYI_GPIan7GnGl6oOCeaa7pO2JCi0HIuuMY4vJUFAwtE12fKr5krAXyQQ==#

From the time 50-1:30, the basic conversation is:

“Finally, in conclusion then, it seems there are Muslims in this audience who have not accepted Christ, in a Christian sense.  And we should take it for granted that they don’t have the Holy Spirit… I don’t think I have the Holy Spirit, and I don’t think my Muslim friends do.  All right, so, if we don’t have this Holy Spirit, then we can’t understand anything you are saying about Christ.”

The Protestant pastor responds:
“That’s true.”

The Muslim repeats: “That’s true.”

And the Muslims continues…
“So our dialogue is not going to be promising for anything… there’s no way you can convert our Muslim friends because they don’t have the Holy Spirit so they can’t understand you.  Until they get this Holy Spirit they won’t understand you, and all your preaching here is just in vain…”

After a long pause, the Protestant pastor says
“Unless the Holy Spirit comes…”

The Muslim continues:
“Yes, unless the Holy Spirit comes you are in big trouble.”


This kind of situation makes me wonder how much more respect Muslims would give Christians if they knew the VERY not western roots of the Church of Christ.

For this reason, I bring this topic up to the Oriental Orthodox (who are very presently aware of Islam and its intense persecution against Christians).

When you have a Caucasian American who is part of a Protestant “Christian” group and wants to discuss Christianity with an Arab Muslim(s)… it doesn’t’ take a lot of reasoning to realize that this guy has no actual connection to the original historic Church of Jesus Christ. 

God bless this Protestant pastor for his efforts… but at the same time, may God grant there be more actual Orthodox Christians to engage the Islamic world about the TRUE origins of Christianity.

In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Amen
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_Seraphim_
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2007, 11:28:47 PM »

Well, I just found a YouTube video of a Coptic Priest (Zakariya Boutrus) speaking out against Islam.  As an American, I greatly appreciate how authoritative his statements are due to the fact that he lives in an area that has faced great Islamic persecution.  Besides "terrorists"... America hasn't ever really tasted the blade of Islam.  Therefore, Americans all-too-easily dismiss all criticism of Islam being a "religion of the sword"... all in the name of "religious equality."  Praise be to God that there ARE Orthodox voices speaking out against Islam... exposing it for what it really is.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4u7rtR2kPM

God bless all (even Muslims)... may all people find the Truth

In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit


By the way, has anyone heard of this particular Coptic priest?
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minasoliman
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 11:06:03 AM »

Abouna Zakariya is a charismatic figure that means well.  He had a tough history, and I think his brother was killed by Muslims.  When he was ordained, he was quite brave in Egypt in confronting Islam, but the Pope sent him away from Egypt since this involved relations with the Coptic Church.

Unfortunately, Abouna Zakariya also seems very "Protestant-like" in his arguments as well, although he is very scholarly at times.  He does have good relationships with Protestant churches in evangelizing to Muslims, and many of those who were converted under him did not seem to have become Orthodox, or at least don't "sound" Orthodox, which gives Abouna Zakariya a great deal of suspicion.  While he is a validly ordained priest (although I don't believe he's allowed to pray a liturgy; someone correct me if I'm wrong) and he never tires in his work against Islam, his mission is questionable on Orthodox grounds.

He also has a website if you're interested:

http://www.islam-christianity.net/

God bless.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 11:19:07 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 10:51:44 PM »

Dear Seraphim,

I think what is presented by the Protestant pastor is not exclusive to Western Christianity but is commonly believed to be the case within Orthodoxy as well with respect to the issue raised.

Dear Mina,

It is unfortunate but Fr Zakariya is currently under suspension from practising any of the sacraments by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church and is constantly under attack by the heirarchy of the church as the cause for escalating Islamic-Christian tension in Egypt as well as suspicion of Protestant/Pentecostal beliefs.
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_Seraphim_
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2007, 12:16:24 AM »

Oh my!  Embarrassed

Lord have mercy

So is it just Fr Zakariya's attitude that people find offending?... or is he actually stating false accusations against Islam?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 01:30:17 AM by _Seraphim_ » Logged

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_Seraphim_
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 01:28:42 AM »

In regards to the initial video mentioned (“Muslim and Christian perception of God”)…
the Protestant speaker, Dr. David Shenk, begins his speech with these words:



“My topic that I’ve been asked to speak on is: ‘God in Christian experience.’ 

God is my Father, as Jesus taught us to pray, my Father in heaven.  And He is the most precious Person in my life.  He is the center of my life.  He means everything to me.  And so it is with great joy that I want to confess God as I experience Him.

My faith in God is rooted in the bible… God comes to me as I read the bible day by day.”



First of all, he fails to establish the absolute foundation of Christianity: God is the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Following in line with most contemporary Protestant lingo, Dr. Shenk refers to God as a Person (singular)… failing to emphasize or even mention that God is Three Persons (plural) in One Divine Essence. 

His following statement that his faith in God is: “rooted in the bible” is not necessarily un-Orthodox, but it is very un-Orthodox for him to just leave it at that… failing to mention the Church in any way (sola scriptura).  Also, he does not say one single word about the blessed Eucharist!

I very much appreciate his obvious devotion and love for God, but just imagine if he had the Wisdom of Orthodoxy, the Living Tradition of the Living Word, the Light of the True Church as his guide.  Imagine how much more profit would come from his zeal.  This is true for all non-Orthodox Christians (especially Protestants… who have virtually zero grounding in history or tradition).

May God bless all and continue to bring them closer into His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

† Lord have mercy
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 12:38:16 PM »

Hello all,

I have heard talks about Fr. Zakaria being suspended before. This is the first time I hear reasons though.

At any rate, this doesn't discount the work he is doing. He presents his arguments in a very academic, scholarly and respectful way. He doesn't necessarily preach Christianity (or Orthodoxy) very often. He rather points out problems in Islamic concepts, texts, etc. I think this is a valid first step considering his "intended" audience.

It is very hard to asses his impact on Muslim people in the Arab world. Obviously some people are furious with him and consequently with Christians in general. On the other hand, I hope there are people who are motivated to think...

God bless all work done for his name...
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Alexius
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 04:57:40 PM »

I consider myself well schooled in Islamic theology and I have seen many Protestant vs. Muslim debates. I find the Christian debaters to be embarassing to the whole Christian world in their arguments since they rely on illogical statements and scripture alone that Muslims reject. Then they try to argue passages from the Bible that can be interpreted in any number of ways. Perhaps if they relized that teachings like the Trinity are not only biblical, but also rooted in the testimony of the ECF's, then they could have half decent arguments. It really disappoints me that so many Christians become Muslims each year based on the arguments of fools...We need better debaters and a lot more prayers!

Btw...the video was taken down...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 04:59:52 PM by Alexius » Logged

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Trebor135
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 01:13:21 AM »

Alexius--which Protestant debators have you seen go up against Islamic apologists? What topics were they discussing? Do you have any examples showing how Christianity was actually done a disservice?
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