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Author Topic: Differences in the Tradition  (Read 3862 times) Average Rating: 0
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authio
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« on: June 05, 2007, 01:37:02 PM »

How does one tell the different liturgical traditions within Holy Orthodoxy?  I hear there is Great Russian, Carpatho-Rusyn, Antiochian, Byzantine, Romanian.... how does one tell?
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2007, 02:15:08 PM »

Do you want my Liturgics notes?  It goes into the different regional differences, their names, which churches are a part of that particular brand of Liturgical practice, etc. 

Its not SUPER complete, but you an fill in the holes with a good book.  I recommend Schmemman's Introduction to Liturgical Theology and other books. 

PM me if you are interested. 

Its not that I don't want to answer your question...But i'd be posting from my notes anyway...this kind of cuts the middle man...which may not be what you wanted. 

Let me know. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 01:35:10 AM »

By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.



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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »

Serb,

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in  the various jurisdictions  duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions.  With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

I would love those notes. PM me if they aren't posted.

Thomas
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 01:59:14 PM »

There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_Rite
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 02:29:32 PM »

By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.

I'd love to make this comparison. How? Are any OO liturgies available on the Internet? Despite my interest to the point of considering visiting our local Armenian and Coptic churches, I always end up at my parish feeling that my curiosity is not a good excuse enough to miss our Divine Liturgy.

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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 06:17:45 PM »

Αριστοκλής,

There is an Armenian Church in the Pittsburgh Area?

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 06:29:21 PM »

Αριστοκλής,

There is an Armenian Church in the Pittsburgh Area?

Fr. Deacon Lance

With a large definition of "area", yes,

A mission parish in Erie
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2007, 11:46:25 AM »

There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_Rite

I'm afraid, George, that there are some EO who would say that any "western" rite such as Sarum has no place in EO at all.  Then again, I've also read some people who maintained that *Only* Byzantine Chant was really EO and one person many years ago on a forum far far away wrote that it was the ONLY chanting the God heard prayers in. 

Sigh.  (I'm doing alot of that today.)

Ebor
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2007, 12:18:22 PM »

Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants."  Are they sure  Huh  Shocked

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting. My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 06:20:29 PM »

Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants."  Are they sure  Huh  Shocked

I would say that the person I referred to was quite sure.  He did not think that *any* "Western" music or Russian chant (influenced as it was by the Western harmony/polyphony) was worshipful. Only Byzantine Chant was worshipping and made people think about God, all other musics made them think of the human composers. (ByzChant as I recall him posting having been dictated or handed down directly from Heaven by angels).    Meaning no disrespect, but as a matter of hearing and my own taste faulty as it may be, much ByzChant sounds to me as one EO priest said like "Calling the camels home".  And I think that I have fairly catholic taste in music.  I will gladly listen to Japanese music, Zulu singing, South American music, Chinese orchestras, British/American Folk, Classical and Baroque and Early Music and much more.   And when I hear Christian music such as Bach or Vaughn Williams or others I *am* worshipping and not thinking about the composer.  I just do not believe that *only* Byz Chant is acceptable to God.   After all, He made all of the people and cultures and their urges to make music.  Smiley

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting.

I must preface this by reminding you that I am not WR nor EO but Anglican.

To be very frank, I think that for some the use of Sarum Rite, or the liturgy that St. Tikhon worked on from the Book of Common Prayer (the main book that Anglicans use) is that *that* is the way they worship, that is the way they know and the way that God has reached them.  They are bringing their ways, as it were and yet being part of some EO jurisdiction. 

I will also tell you that personally I have found myself unable to worship fully in a Byzantine liturgy.  It is probably a character flaw on my part.  Wink  But I am able to worship in an Anglican Service and feel the Presence of God and that there is the Church in ways that I have never felt in an EO service.  I will also freely admit that some Episcopal guitar/happy-clappy services have been an exercise in worship in spite of the surroundings and spiritually gritted teeth.  Smiley

Quote
My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."

And if that is the way that things go, there you are.  There are some who maintain that WR is just for those who are too weak/immature/western to be "really" EO and that once they get better they will of course go Byzantine.  Well what of those people who believe that they are worshiping God jus fine with Western Chant or other ways? I wonder would the reverse situation apply if a small Byzantine Liturgy parish got "enough people who can sing" the Western chant and liturgies would they "become Western Rite"?  Just an idle thought.

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2007, 06:39:45 PM »


As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor


IS OUTRAGE!   Cheesy

In 200 years both Greeks and Russians will be using Carpatho-Russian plainchant in English - everyone knows that...

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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 07:44:26 PM »

Serb,

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in  the various jurisdictions  duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions.  With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

I would love those notes. PM me if they aren't posted.

Thomas

I wouldn't mind going to that class when you have it again. Please let me know, OK?
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »


IS OUTRAGE!   Cheesy

In 200 years both Greeks and Russians will be using Carpatho-Russian plainchant in English - everyone knows that...

Why wait.  Everybody sing along...
http://www.patronagechurch.com/Divine_Liturgy_1966/Divine_Liturgy_Kocisko_1966.full.htm

http://www.byzcath.org/p/aliquippa/Holy-Week-and-Pascha.htm
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2007, 10:24:31 PM »

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

A friend in my parish has talked (jokingly) about writing a Country and Western setting of the Divine Liturgy.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 08:48:51 AM »

I had a priest once who said that if we were to create a truely american chant format we should look to the appalachian and old style black gospel music which is sung without instrumentation, which has a chant format and often speaks to the soul.  He cited the music in "O Brother Were Art Thou" as an example particularly the songs  "Down to the River to Pray" and "Po Lazarus"

Thomas
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 10:18:57 AM »

As I recall that is part of where the person I know thought that American liturgical music for EO would come from.

Ebor
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 11:06:09 AM »

In which case I would prefer native American  Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 11:18:22 AM »

In which case I would prefer native American  Cheesy

"Coyote Oldman"?  R. Carlos Nakai?  Some good music there, but they do use flutes and drums.

 Wink

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 06:43:14 PM »

What did the Aztecs and other native Americans do for music?
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 01:47:53 PM »

Flutes, whistles, and drums.

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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 11:51:10 AM »

What did the Aztecs and other native Americans do for music?

I don't know about the Aztecs, but there has been a resurgence of various Native American musics in recordings. It is not just one kind of music.  Remember that each tribal group has it's own unique ways.

 "Coyote Oldman" is one group that has a number of recordings that I enjoy. 
http://www.coyoteoldman.com/

R. Carlos Nakai is another excellent performer
http://www.rcarlosnakai.com/

Here is a link to the Wikipedia overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_music

Ebor
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