Author Topic: Differences in the Tradition  (Read 4042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline authio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 369
Differences in the Tradition
« on: June 05, 2007, 01:37:02 PM »
How does one tell the different liturgical traditions within Holy Orthodoxy?  I hear there is Great Russian, Carpatho-Rusyn, Antiochian, Byzantine, Romanian.... how does one tell?
Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,580
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2007, 02:15:08 PM »
Do you want my Liturgics notes?  It goes into the different regional differences, their names, which churches are a part of that particular brand of Liturgical practice, etc. 

Its not SUPER complete, but you an fill in the holes with a good book.  I recommend Schmemman's Introduction to Liturgical Theology and other books. 

PM me if you are interested. 

Its not that I don't want to answer your question...But i'd be posting from my notes anyway...this kind of cuts the middle man...which may not be what you wanted. 

Let me know. 
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline nonchal

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 01:35:10 AM »
By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.



« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 11:06:07 AM by nonchal »

Offline Thomas

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,870
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »
Serb,

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in  the various jurisdictions  duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions.  With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

I would love those notes. PM me if they aren't posted.

Thomas
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 10:10:04 AM by Thomas »
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline Heorhij

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,576
    • Mississippi University for Women
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 01:59:14 PM »
There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_Rite
Love never fails.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 02:29:32 PM »
By the 12th century the ancient liturgies were completely destroyed and were replaced with the Melkite Byzantine court ceremonial of Constantinople. (Though the text and the most basic elements remained.) To see this all one has to do is compare the liturgies of the Oriental Orthodox Church with the the liturgies of the Byzantine Church! So anyways the differences in the EO are accidental drifts from the Court.

I'd love to make this comparison. How? Are any OO liturgies available on the Internet? Despite my interest to the point of considering visiting our local Armenian and Coptic churches, I always end up at my parish feeling that my curiosity is not a good excuse enough to miss our Divine Liturgy.

Αριστοκλής
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Online Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,235
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 06:17:45 PM »
Αριστοκλής,

There is an Armenian Church in the Pittsburgh Area?

Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 06:29:21 PM »
Αριστοκλής,

There is an Armenian Church in the Pittsburgh Area?

Fr. Deacon Lance

With a large definition of "area", yes,

A mission parish in Erie
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2007, 11:46:25 AM »
There is also a Sarum rite - a very different tradition of celebrating the Divine Liturgy, common in Western Rite Orthodox churches. The name "Sarum" is a toponym, the name of an ancient Roman colony close to what now is the city of Salisbury, England. Apparently, it came to the Holy Orthodoxy from Anglo-Catholic converts (one of them happens to be my parish priest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_Rite

I'm afraid, George, that there are some EO who would say that any "western" rite such as Sarum has no place in EO at all.  Then again, I've also read some people who maintained that *Only* Byzantine Chant was really EO and one person many years ago on a forum far far away wrote that it was the ONLY chanting the God heard prayers in. 

Sigh.  (I'm doing alot of that today.)

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Heorhij

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,576
    • Mississippi University for Women
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2007, 12:18:22 PM »
Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants."  Are they sure  ???  :o

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting. My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 12:19:01 PM by Heorhij »
Love never fails.

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 06:20:29 PM »
Ebor, I know... I think it's sad that people are splitting hairs about things like "God hears ONLY THESE chants."  Are they sure  ???  :o

I would say that the person I referred to was quite sure.  He did not think that *any* "Western" music or Russian chant (influenced as it was by the Western harmony/polyphony) was worshipful. Only Byzantine Chant was worshipping and made people think about God, all other musics made them think of the human composers. (ByzChant as I recall him posting having been dictated or handed down directly from Heaven by angels).    Meaning no disrespect, but as a matter of hearing and my own taste faulty as it may be, much ByzChant sounds to me as one EO priest said like "Calling the camels home".  And I think that I have fairly catholic taste in music.  I will gladly listen to Japanese music, Zulu singing, South American music, Chinese orchestras, British/American Folk, Classical and Baroque and Early Music and much more.   And when I hear Christian music such as Bach or Vaughn Williams or others I *am* worshipping and not thinking about the composer.  I just do not believe that *only* Byz Chant is acceptable to God.   After all, He made all of the people and cultures and their urges to make music.  :)

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason why some "Western Rite" Orthodox churches use the Sarum rite is that they, consisting largely of recent converts from Anglo-Catholocism and Episcopalianism, simply do not have experience in Byzantine liturgical chanting.

I must preface this by reminding you that I am not WR nor EO but Anglican.

To be very frank, I think that for some the use of Sarum Rite, or the liturgy that St. Tikhon worked on from the Book of Common Prayer (the main book that Anglicans use) is that *that* is the way they worship, that is the way they know and the way that God has reached them.  They are bringing their ways, as it were and yet being part of some EO jurisdiction. 

I will also tell you that personally I have found myself unable to worship fully in a Byzantine liturgy.  It is probably a character flaw on my part.  ;)  But I am able to worship in an Anglican Service and feel the Presence of God and that there is the Church in ways that I have never felt in an EO service.  I will also freely admit that some Episcopal guitar/happy-clappy services have been an exercise in worship in spite of the surroundings and spiritually gritted teeth.  :)

Quote
My priest says that he does not *particularly* care about singing "Lift up your hearts" and hearing us respond, "We lift them up unto the Lord" to the Sarum rite tune. He says that if, and when, we get enough people who can sing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, we might as well become "Eastern Rite."

And if that is the way that things go, there you are.  There are some who maintain that WR is just for those who are too weak/immature/western to be "really" EO and that once they get better they will of course go Byzantine.  Well what of those people who believe that they are worshiping God jus fine with Western Chant or other ways? I wonder would the reverse situation apply if a small Byzantine Liturgy parish got "enough people who can sing" the Western chant and liturgies would they "become Western Rite"?  Just an idle thought.

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2007, 06:39:45 PM »

As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

Ebor


IS OUTRAGE!   :D

In 200 years both Greeks and Russians will be using Carpatho-Russian plainchant in English - everyone knows that...

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Marat

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 07:44:26 PM »
Serb,

I teach an Orthopraxis class to catechumen and newly illumined in which I try to ocver the differences that enrich the Orthodox Churches here in the US. Many of us travel in our work or on vacation and will end up fellowshipping and worshipping in  the various jurisdictions  duirng that travel. I have found that sometimes new converts are shocked when they see the variation. My class helps prepare them for the richness of our various traditions.  With these classes They frequently come back after a trip excited rather than, as in the past, shocked, due to that variety.

I would love those notes. PM me if they aren't posted.

Thomas

I wouldn't mind going to that class when you have it again. Please let me know, OK?

Offline Carpatho Russian

  • Site Supporter
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 285
  • Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »

IS OUTRAGE!   :D

In 200 years both Greeks and Russians will be using Carpatho-Russian plainchant in English - everyone knows that...

Why wait.  Everybody sing along...
http://www.patronagechurch.com/Divine_Liturgy_1966/Divine_Liturgy_Kocisko_1966.full.htm

http://www.byzcath.org/p/aliquippa/Holy-Week-and-Pascha.htm
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 08:35:42 PM by Carpatho Russian »
Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,455
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2007, 10:24:31 PM »
As a side note: A Cradle EO person I know once told me that he thinks that eventually there will be an American Chant/setting for the EO liturgy from some kind of American musical roots, but it may not be for 200 years or more.

A friend in my parish has talked (jokingly) about writing a Country and Western setting of the Divine Liturgy.  ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Thomas

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,870
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 08:48:51 AM »
I had a priest once who said that if we were to create a truely american chant format we should look to the appalachian and old style black gospel music which is sung without instrumentation, which has a chant format and often speaks to the soul.  He cited the music in "O Brother Were Art Thou" as an example particularly the songs  "Down to the River to Pray" and "Po Lazarus"

Thomas
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 10:18:57 AM »
As I recall that is part of where the person I know thought that American liturgical music for EO would come from.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 11:06:09 AM »
In which case I would prefer native American  :D
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 11:18:22 AM »
In which case I would prefer native American  :D

"Coyote Oldman"?  R. Carlos Nakai?  Some good music there, but they do use flutes and drums.

 ;)

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline authio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 369
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 06:43:14 PM »
What did the Aztecs and other native Americans do for music?
Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام

Offline Thomas

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,870
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 01:47:53 PM »
Flutes, whistles, and drums.

Thomas
(1/16 Cherokee, If I get a nose beed I get kicked out of the tribe)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 01:48:40 PM by Thomas »
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
Re: Differences in the Tradition
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 11:51:10 AM »
What did the Aztecs and other native Americans do for music?

I don't know about the Aztecs, but there has been a resurgence of various Native American musics in recordings. It is not just one kind of music.  Remember that each tribal group has it's own unique ways.

 "Coyote Oldman" is one group that has a number of recordings that I enjoy. 
http://www.coyoteoldman.com/

R. Carlos Nakai is another excellent performer
http://www.rcarlosnakai.com/

Here is a link to the Wikipedia overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_music

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.