Author Topic: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead  (Read 8045 times)

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Offline macedonia74

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2007, 10:53:21 PM »
One last thing.  I used to be a moderator here and I know there are special rules in the FFA and I happen to think Ozgeorge is one of the best mods here, but I really hope that we are not condoning accusations of theft, betrayal and a travelling circus of one of our Orthodox Hierarchs.

Hey, I just call them as I see them, or in this case, as I listen, read, observe, and experience.... but I guess the
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Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping! High Elder
finds it ok to mock the institutions of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Cheers!  ;)
"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

Offline macedonia74

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2007, 10:55:45 PM »
M74,

I'm not going to even engage you because you seem hell bent on insulting and personally attacking.  I do not see that I used an ad hominem against you, yet your posts a riddled with them against me.  Odd, to say the least.

In any event, I don't want continue derailing this thread, but suffice it to say, I think the points of Nis still stand, unrefuted and the best you can come up with is the Archbishop Jovan's ambition led him astray.

Well that would all be fine and well with your wild "stories" of money stealing and this and that, however, just about every reputable human rights institution recognized the grave injustice against the Archbishop.  Everyone that is, except those so inspired by nationalism that they cannot see what everyone (even non-Orthodox) can see.

In any event, sorry if my words offended.

You know, you're right. I can respect this stance, and I too apologize if I overstepped with the ad hominems, it wasn't my intention. In any case, I can move foreward with your calls to remove all ethnic identifiers, especially in the Balkans. If both SOC and MOC base talks on these parameters, I think things will move ahead for the better.

Chris
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:57:02 PM by macedonia74 »
"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

Offline GiC

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2007, 11:00:47 PM »
In any event, I don't want continue derailing this thread, but suffice it to say, I think the points of Nis still stand, unrefuted and the best you can come up with is the Archbishop Jovan's ambition led him astray.

Well that would all be fine and well with your wild "stories" of money stealing and this and that, however, just about every reputable human rights institution recognized the grave injustice against the Archbishop.  Everyone that is, except those so inspired by nationalism that they cannot see what everyone (even non-Orthodox) can see.

I think the point that needs to be made is, regardless of one's opinion of the Archbishop, he is a Legitimate Orthodox Bishop in Communion with all of Orthodoxy (which is, by definition, makes someone legitimate). This isn't a personality cult, the 'MOC' 'Bishops' may be great guys (I doubt it, but for the sake of argument...), but it doesn't really matter because they're not in Communion with the Orthodox Church, they are no more Bishops than I'm the Dalai Lama. This issue isn't about who's the good guy and who's a meanie, it's about VERY clear cut and well defined canonical matters which were settled centuries ago when similar disputes arose.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline macedonia74

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2007, 11:30:41 PM »
I think the point that needs to be made is, regardless of one's opinion of the Archbishop, he is a Legitimate Orthodox Bishop in Communion with all of Orthodoxy (which is, by definition, makes someone legitimate). This isn't a personality cult, the 'MOC' 'Bishops' may be great guys (I doubt it, but for the sake of argument...), but it doesn't really matter because they're not in Communion with the Orthodox Church, they are no more Bishops than I'm the Dalai Lama. This issue isn't about who's the good guy and who's a meanie, it's about VERY clear cut and well defined canonical matters which were settled centuries ago when similar disputes arose.

Your legitmate Archbishop was consecrated a Bishop by the "non-Bishops" of the MOC...or maybe the school of thought in "canonical" Orthodoxy is that he fell out of the sky a Bishop?

What is it that you understand so 'clear cut' about Orthodoxy in Macedonia? Have you spoken with a Macedonian Orthodox Bishop, perhaps one of the faithful? Because it would only safe to assume that such claims by yourself, and other regarding Macedonian Orthodoxy would mean you've spoken to all sides in the 'dispute.'
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 11:32:51 PM by macedonia74 »
"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

Offline GiC

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2007, 12:11:09 AM »
What is it that you understand so 'clear cut' about Orthodoxy in Macedonia? Have you spoken with a Macedonian Orthodox Bishop, perhaps one of the faithful? Because it would only safe to assume that such claims by yourself, and other regarding Macedonian Orthodoxy would mean you've spoken to all sides in the 'dispute.'

I don't need to speak to anyone, I only need to read the necessary dyptics. In the end, that's all that matters, what the dyptics say, who says what and who thinks what is irrelevant. Show me the dyptics, the define the limits of Orthodoxy, otherwise it's empty rhetoric.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline macedonia74

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2007, 12:35:35 PM »
MODERATION:
Chris (macedonia74),
You have 24 hours from the time of this post to present your proof in this thread that Prisoner of Conscience, Zoran Vranishkovski known as Archbishop Jovan of Ohrid, recognised as a Prisoner of Conscience by Amnesty International, is guilty of the crimes you have accused him of on this forum. If you cannot present this proof, I would ask you to retract your accusations.
George


I wonder if the moderators in this forum will see fit to speak to those who are disrespectful to my heritage and identity with racist name calling such as: "Skopiani"??

I mean, since we're in the habit of tearfully running to moderators like babies ...
 You have been repeatedly warned against ad hominem attacks. Claiming that a poster goes running to moderators 'like babies' is clearly repeating this offense and ignoring our prior informal warnings.

PS...no one reported this and 'came running' to me.

+Fr Chris
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 12:44:48 PM by FrChris »
"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

Offline macedonia74

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2007, 12:57:40 PM »
I wonder if the moderators in this forum will see fit to speak to those who are disrespectful to my heritage and identity with racist name calling such as: "Skopiani"??

I mean, since we're in the habit of tearfully running to moderators like babies ...
 You have been repeatedly warned against ad hominem attacks. Claiming that a poster goes running to moderators 'like babies' is clearly repeating this offense and ignoring our prior informal warnings.

PS...no one reported this and 'came running' to me.

+Fr Chris

Everyone I apologize, I think? I mean, I've seen a lot more disrespect on this portal than me calling others 'babies' yet this sort of reaction never came about. Are we going to use the ad hoinem reply everytime someone expresses an observation even if it hurts a bit of our sensibilities? Does this mean that every time I feel 'attacked' by someone on this forum, I need to seek the assistance of a moderator? Does that moderator not know what is offensive, if so why not?

If anything, I'm sorry for not being PC. I'm sorry that you cannot bare to discuss the possibilities of a different viewpoint of Church history, or side. I'm sorry if my words reek havoc on your sense of denial ....

Ok then, I'll just walk into that nice box you all have created for me and my people and play nice ....
"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Montenegrin Orthodox Church Going Full Steam Ahead
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2007, 01:21:52 PM »
It seems to me that the conversation has run its course, and has delved a bit into the world of politics (which is forbidden in the FFA).  I'm going to close this thread without prejudice to either side, and I hope that any continuation of the political issues can be handled in the Politics forum, and other issues relating to the Macedonian OC be discussed as they come up.   - Cleveland, Global Moderator

I split off the accusations against Archbishop JOVAN and resulting discussion, in order to permit the poster to defend their accusations. 

Accusations against Archbishop JOVAN: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11947.0.html
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 04:16:09 PM by cleveland »
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.