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Author Topic: Re: Jerusalem Patriarchate/Relations of Patriarchates  (Read 8354 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: June 01, 2007, 02:38:26 AM »

The former Patriarch of Jerusalem, Irineos, was in the wrong by selling land to Israel as is attested by his removal by the Holy Synod of

Jerusalem. On May 24, 2005 a special Pan-Orthodox Synod was convened in Constantinople (Istanbul) to review the decisions of the

Holy Synod of Jerusalem. The Pan-Orthodox Synod under the presidency of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1, voted

overwhelmingly to confirm the decision of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher and to strike Irineos' name from the diptychs, and on

May 30, Jerusalem's Holy Synod chose Metropolitan Cornelius of Petra to serve as locum tenens pending the election of a replacement

for Irineos. On August 22, 2005, the Holy Synod of the Church of Jerusalem unanimously elected Theophilos III, the former Archbishop of

Tabor, as the 141st Patriarch of Jerusalem. Irineos continues to arrogantly insist, despite the decisions of the Pan-Orthodox Synod, that

he is the rightful Patriarch.

This decision was based on, among other things, the fact that Church law dictates the Patriarch must have the blessing of the Holy

Land's ruling powers — Jordan, the Palestinian Authority and Israel. But I think it’s important to look beyond the actual sale to the

consequences and implications. The majority of the Orthodox faithful in the area under the Patriarch of Jerusalem's jurisdiction are

Palestinian Arabs, though there are many Russians, Romanians, and Georgians living there as well. The Patriarchate's hierarchy is

dominated by Greeks, which in effect excludes the Arab-speaking majority of the region's Orthodox faithful from the Church's upper

ranks; this is a point of endless contention between Greeks in the Patriarchate, who are backed by the Greek government in this regard,

and the Palestinians, many of whom have left the Church for U.S.-influenced Evangelical churches or other faiths in recent decades.

I submit that this is indeed a great travesty and a blow to Orthodox unity in the Holy Land and perhaps further abroad.  The Patriarch is

supposed to be the supreme shepherd of souls in his flock. By excluding the majority ethnic group in favor of the minority ethnic group

because it shares the Patriarch’s ethnicity is indeed a travesty. The Pan-Orthodox Synod’s decision was a step in the right direction to

prevent further enragement and alienation of the Palestinian Christians. Though it probably doesn’t go far enough, we must trust the

present Patriarch will begin to reverse decades of, dare I say, racist policies towards their brother Arab Christians.

Although it is indeed sad to learn that Jordan is not presently recognizing the Patriarch, the decision is based on one other important

fact. During the 1967 war, Jordan lost the West Bank and East Jerusalem to Israel (the western sector having been under Israeli

control). In 1988, Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank but retained an administrative role pending a final settlement, and its

1994 treaty with Israel allowed for a continuing Jordanian role in Muslim and Christian holy places in Jerusalem. The 1967 war led to a

dramatic increase in the number of Palestinians, especially from the West Bank, living in Jordan. Its Palestinian refugee population —

700,000 in 1966 — grew by another 300,000 from the West Bank. The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the power and

importance of Palestinian resistance elements (fedayeen) in Jordan. The heavily armed fedayeen constituted a growing threat to the

sovereignty and security of the Hashemite state of Jordan, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian

fighters from various Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September.

King Abdullah II of Jordan is a very pro-Western, forward thinking Arab ruler who is simply trying to maintain a delicate balance of law

and order in an otherwise unstable region. Unfortunately, Irineos’ illegal actions contributed to the regions’ instability AND made it even

more difficult for Arab Christians.

The reality is that Israel does not and should not have sole authority in these matters and I respectfully submit that if that were the

case, the results would be disatrous and probably herald world war III.

 Gabriel
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 04:09:01 AM »

My dear Arab brother,

The former Patriarch of Jerusalem, Irineos, was in the wrong by selling land to Israel as is attested by his removal by the Holy Synod ...

The sad fact was that no evidence has ever been produced about neither his involvement nor legal validity of the sale.

Quote
On May 24, 2005 a special Pan-Orthodox Synod was convened in Constantinople (Istanbul)

Even more sad fact was the immediate meddling into business of Jerusalem Patriarchate. Was someone trying to increase his influence over our Most Holy Seee of Jerusalem? Did someone achieve this?

Quote
The majority of the Orthodox faithful in the area under the Patriarch of Jerusalem's jurisdiction are Palestinian Arabs, though there are many Russians, Romanians, and Georgians living there as well

I love my Arab brothers and sisters very much and feel pain for their sufferings.

Quote
The Patriarchate's hierarchy is dominated by Greeks, which in effect excludes the Arab-speaking majority of the region's Orthodox faithful from the Church's upper ranks; this is a point of endless contention between Greeks in the Patriarchate, who are backed by the Greek government in this regard, and the Palestinians, many of whom have left the Church for U.S.-influenced Evangelical churches or other faiths in recent decades.

I've heard about much of that. While I do support much greater participation into the upper rank clergy of Palestinian/Arab Christians, I do think you should not be hasty to completely overturn the Greeks out of there. We all sometimes loose the  entire picture from our sight and tend to see just our part of it.

The sad fact is that the entire event was harmful to the entire Orthodoxy as well as to the Arab Christians. At least that's my opinion.
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 10:41:31 AM »

The deposition of Patriarch Irineos was certainly canonical legitimate, he was deposed by his Synod, invoked his right of appeal, and it was denied. As to whether or not it was just, well it would seem not; but at times the Church must sacrifice justice for political expedience as was done here...the lesser of two evils chosen. Realizing the political necessity and the fact that this is not a utopia with which we are dealing I believe the actions of the Oecumenical Throne to be justified, no individual alone is so important as to allow a breakdown between two of the four remaining patriarchates; no one is too important to be sacrificed (However, I do believe that the synod of Jerusalem may have acted in haste).

Of course, whether or not the sale actually took place with the knowledge and consent of the Patriarch (which is far from certain), I fail to see which canons were violated. The right to buy or sale land rests with the patriarch, he is the Bishop of the city after all, is he not? I find the notion that, independent of embezzlement, a bishop could be deposed for conducting as simple administrative business as overseeing property sales or purchases of buildings not used for worship to be utterly absurd.

As for whether or not there should be more arabs in the hierarchy of the Church. Well, I think this incident demonstrates that the arabs in the region are too closely allied to the mohammedans and their diabolical governments. Until the local population can stop associating and identifying with the Mohammedan governments and peoples of the region I do not believe it would be prudent to ordain any of them to the Episcopacy...the status quo seems to be the best we can do given the current political situation. Though a stronger exerting of political power by Israel would be most beneficial to the Church, but it would seem from this last conflict that they have both the blessing and the curse of civilized peoples in that they found it to be most difficult to sustained armed conflict.
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 11:46:14 AM »

Patriarch Irenaios was framed - simply that.  Now people realize that this was so and are trying to put things back in order. You had better tell your chums at the Phanar to keep out of this.  Theophilos will be deported back to Greece and hopefully his accomplishes too.
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 11:47:40 AM »

but at times the Church must sacrifice justice for political expedience as was done here...the lesser of two evils chosen.

I'm not sure that we believe in the same Church. In fact, I do believe in Church that wouldn't sacrifice justice for political expedience.

Quote
I believe the actions of the Oecumenical Throne to be justified,

I obviously don't. But that's not the problem, since, according to your own words:

Quote
no individual alone is so important as to allow a breakdown between two of the four remaining patriarchates;

I'm looking forward to see you sacrificing individuals from Bosphorus.

BTW, we apparently aren't in the same church, since mine does have eight remaining Patriarchates.

Quote
Well, I think this incident demonstrates that the arabs in the region are too closely allied to the mohammedans and their diabolical governments.

So, the episcopacy and the Church is in dependence to political vews that suits yours?

Quote
Until the local population can stop associating and identifying with the Mohammedan governments and peoples of the region I do not believe it would be prudent to ordain any of them to the Episcopacy...


Are we entitled to shout anaxios in any see as we wish? I'd immediately volunteer to shout anaxios in Pergamon!

Quote
Though a stronger exerting of political power by Israel would be most beneficial to the Church,

Not to Orthodox Church, that's for sure. Perhaps to your church and I'm completely clueless which one would it be.
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 11:49:30 AM »

Patriarch Irenaios was framed - simply that.  Now people realize that this was so and are trying to put things back in order. You had better tell your chums at the Phanar to keep out of this.  Theophilos will be deported back to Greece and hopefully his accomplishes too.

Exactly. In the plot between Izraelis, Greek govt. and Phanar.

Pitty, they deceived local Orthodox Christians, too.

But His Holyness Theophilos is Patriarch now. We shouldn't make things worse. Let's not make another mistake in hastiness.
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 12:39:42 PM »

I'm not sure that we believe in the same Church. In fact, I do believe in Church that wouldn't sacrifice justice for political expedience.

I obviously don't. But that's not the problem, since, according to your own words:

I'm looking forward to see you sacrificing individuals from Bosphorus.

BTW, we apparently aren't in the same church, since mine does have eight remaining Patriarchates.

Constantinople has made her share of sacrifices over the years, she is the most exalted of patriarchates, first Bishop of the Church, Ultimate See of Appeal, with Direct Jurisdiction over all the world save the other four patriarchates, and even indirect jurisdiction over those. Yet she has humbled herself exceedingly for the good of the Church, she has yielded power that is hers by tradition and canon to those who would seek to gain it by any means possible for the well being of the Church. No other patriarch could sacrifice more than the Oecumenical Throne, for no other patriarch has as much to sacrifice. I would strongly recommend you read documents written before 20th century, your idealism is not played out in the history of the Orthodox Church.

Quote
So, the episcopacy and the Church is in dependence to political vews that suits yours?

The Church should be dedicated to fighting the Mohammedan heretics and their sympathizers, not allying themselves with these infidels. To ally with mohammedan peoples or with the mohammedan governments is to deny Christ and blaspheme the faith.

Quote
Are we entitled to shout anaxios in any see as we wish? I'd immediately volunteer to shout anaxios in Pergamon!

Well you should have went to his Eminence's ordination so that you could have made a fool out of yourself when you had the chace. It would have been most entertaining.

Quote
Not to Orthodox Church, that's for sure. Perhaps to your church and I'm completely clueless which one would it be.

That would be the real Church in this world, not some idealistic fantasy some 20th century idealists have fabricated and have attempted to use to usurp the Church.
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 01:03:45 PM »

The whole thing is an unholy mess and is a neat summation of some of the worst aspects of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 01:07:24 PM »

Constantinople has made her share of sacrifices over the years, ...

Ahm, do you mean by tolerating heresies? Or by denying the access to Mount Athos to pious Orthodox Bishops? Or by inciting violence in Mount Athos?  Or by creating disorder in Jerusalem, Ukraine, Finland, Estonia, U.S., Australia?

Quote
with Direct Jurisdiction over all the world save the other four patriarchates,
You mean “Paphlagonia”, right?

And you are disregarding Patriarchates of Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia and Romania  and other autocephalous Churches being just an ignoramus, not an ill-intended Phanar chum, right?

Quote
...and even indirect jurisdiction over those.
Well, as long as she was deprived of Ottoman support, she wasn't able to revoke Patriarchates as she did in the cases of Serbia and Bulgaria. Serbia twice, Bulgaria once. On behalf of Ottomans. Weren't Ottomans Muslims?

Quote
No other patriarch could sacrifice more than the Oecumenical Throne, for no other patriarch has as much to sacrifice.
This one, for a change, is absolutely accurate and truthful. Pity though we had too many heretics in Bosphorus during history. Yet, we are still looking forward to some new Anthimos at the Throne of Constantinopolis, but the Turks have narrowed down the choice to...three? Let us lay our hopes in the Holy Spirit and wait the Constantinopolis to take the refuge in Mount Athos, so we would have our Most Holy mother Orthodox Church of Constantinopolis again.

Quote
To ally with mohammedan peoples or with the mohammedan governments is to deny Christ and blaspheme the faith.

While it would be good to ally with Jews, right?

Wait, weren't the Ottomans Muslims?

BTW, you didn't know the Muslims actually do pay great respect to Jesus, Most Holy Theotokos and much of the Prophets? (Though they hold heretical views of them.)

Quote
Well you should have went to his Eminence's ordination so that you could have made a fool out of yourself when you had the chace. It would have been most entertaining.

You mean present masons, such as Strobe Talbot, and other friends of Pergamons' would see me entertaining?

How dare you proclaiming my Arabic Orthodox brothers and sisters anaxios for your political views?
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2007, 02:54:27 PM »

Ahm, do you mean by tolerating heresies? Or by denying the access to Mount Athos to pious Orthodox Bishops? Or by inciting violence in Mount Athos?  Or by creating disorder in Jerusalem, Ukraine, Finland, Estonia, U.S., Australia?

In all these cases Constantinople was merely exersizing her ancient canonical rights for the well being of the Church. Also, it figures that you'd be the type of person who'd support those godless schismatics trespassing on Mt. Athos over their God-ordained Bishop; shouldn't have expected anything better.

Quote
And you are disregarding Patriarchates of Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia and Romania  and other autocephalous Churches being just an ignoramus, not an ill-intended Phanar chum, right?

I'm simply saying that they are autonomous Churches that are canonically under the Oecumenical Throne, they only continue to exersize thie autonomy at the good will of Constantinople who has rights to those lands under the canons of Chalcedon.

Quote
Well, as long as she was deprived of Ottoman support, she wasn't able to revoke Patriarchates as she did in the cases of Serbia and Bulgaria. Serbia twice, Bulgaria once. On behalf of Ottomans. Weren't Ottomans Muslims?

During the Ottomans Constantinople merely fought to maintain the Rights she had enjoyed under the Empire. The Right of Constantinople to install and depose patriarchs had been very well established by the Fall of the Empire; the Imperial City only lost authority under the Ottomans and was in no way benifited by their Conquest.

Quote
This one, for a change, is absolutely accurate and truthful. Pity though we had too many heretics in Bosphorus during history. Yet, we are still looking forward to some new Anthimos at the Throne of Constantinopolis, but the Turks have narrowed down the choice to...three? Let us lay our hopes in the Holy Spirit and wait the Constantinopolis to take the refuge in Mount Athos, so we would have our Most Holy mother Orthodox Church of Constantinopolis again.

Abandon the Imperial City to run to some eccentric backwater? God forbid that day ever come. The Church already fell, it would be a great shame to abandon even the ruins we now maintain to the mohammedan.

Quote
While it would be good to ally with Jews, right?

Most certainly, any ally we can gain against the mohammedan is a valuable ally. Had the Empire had the opportunity to gain the support of a Jewish state in their struggle against the Mohammedan I have little doubt they would have accepted the aid with gratitude. We have a common cause with the Jews, let us for an alliance that we may together struggle for the destruction of the mohammedan race.

Quote
BTW, you didn't know the Muslims actually do pay great respect to Jesus, Most Holy Theotokos and much of the Prophets? (Though they hold heretical views of them.)

They mock Christ and the Mother of God in their feigned respect. They are vicious and wild animals, I would call them swine or dogs, but that would be disrespectful to pigs and canines, both of which are of much higher dignity, dont let the mohammedan fool you into thinking they are anything more.

Quote
You mean present masons, such as Strobe Talbot, and other friends of Pergamons' would see me entertaining?

I really dont get this whole mason fetish as I stated on another thread...I guess I'm just not the conspiracy theorist I used to be, but the masons thing never did anything for me.

Quote
How dare you proclaiming my Arabic Orthodox brothers and sisters anaxios for your political views?

Oh, I dont, at least not those who are loyal Orthodox Christians. However, if you mean the ones who sympathize with the mohammedans? They're nothing more than closet moslems.

The destruction of the Mohammedan race should be the primary concern of western civilization...as for those who would ally with the mohammedans, they should be targeted with equal vigor, regardless of the religion they publicly feign.
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2007, 03:15:14 PM »

In all these cases Constantinople was merely exersizing her ancient canonical rights for the well being of the Church.

No, the puppets in Bosphorus were creating disorder throughout the Orthodox world to the outrage of the Orthodox.

Quote
I'm simply saying that they are autonomous Churches that are canonically under the Oecumenical Throne, they only continue to exersize thie autonomy at the good will of Constantinople who has rights to those lands under the canons of Chalcedon.

So, your are both ignoramus, not knowing the difference between an autocephalous and autonomous Church and ill-intended Phanar chum that are not able to reed the Chalcedon canon!

Quote
During the Ottomans ...

You have no clue what I'm speaking about. By the decisions of Great Vezires of Ottoman Empire Patriarchate of Serbia has been liquidated twice and Patriarchate of Bulgaria once. They used Phanar as their proxy.

Quote
We have a common cause with the Jews, ...

You (whatever that may be) obviously do have. We, Orthodox Christians, obviously don't.

Quote
They mock Christ and the Mother of God in their feigned respect.
Who, the Jews? I know! Spatting at the Cross is their habit!

Quote
I guess I'm just not the conspiracy theorist I used to be, but the masons thing never did anything for me.

Oh, sorry, it isn't the hirotonia of Zlizloulas where Strobe Talbot has been attended. It is the elevation of Bartholomew to the Throne.

BTW, you apparently have no clue that masonry has been condemned by Orthodox councils...twice?

Quote
The destruction of the Mohammedan race should be the primary concern of western civilization...as for those who would ally with the mohammedans, they should be targeted with equal vigor, regardless of the religion they publicly feign.

We Orthodox are Easterners. You stay Western, along with Bosphoriacs, as you wish. BTW, my family, my country and I were already targeted. You are not so awesome as you imagine. But that's the truth you still have to discover.
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2007, 03:27:47 PM »

The destruction of the Mohammedan race should be the primary concern of western civilization...as for those who would ally with the mohammedans, they should be targeted with equal vigor, regardless of the religion they publicly feign.

This statement is completely un-Christian. It's funny how you say they're animals, yet you stoop to their level with statements like this. This actually sounds like something out of a muslim text, just substitute the word Christian for mohammedan, and you got yourself an extremist muslim statement.

I'm simply saying that they are autonomous Churches that are canonically under the Oecumenical Throne, they only continue to exersize thie autonomy at the good will of Constantinople who has rights to those lands under the canons of Chalcedon.

I find this statement amusing. So you truly believe that the before mentioned Patriarchates are not autocephalous?
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2007, 03:34:56 PM »

 Dear GiC,

 While I am not judging your person, I do find your comments extremely offensive, and ignorant.

...the destruction of the mohammedan race.

They are vicious and wild animals, I would call them swine or dogs, but that would be disrespectful to pigs and canines, both of which are of much higher dignity, dont let the mohammedan fool you into thinking they are anything more.

The destruction of the Mohammedan race should be the primary concern of western civilization...

 A. Mohammedanism (Islam) is a RELIGION and not a race. There are Chinese, Scottish, and even GREEK Muslims...
 B. To classify ALL Muslims as terrorists is just as ignorant. While theologically speaking, they are wrong, yet there are millions of Muslims who are more Christlike than some who call themselves Christians.
 C. To call on the destruction of a people is a very un-Christian attitude. You're putting yourself in the company of such people as Hitler when you do so.
 
 I could add sooo much more, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. And your decision to post the Israeli flag is very childish.

 Respectfully,
 Gabriel
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 03:48:59 PM »

No, the puppets in Bosphorus were creating disorder throughout the Orthodox world to the outrage of the Orthodox.

Constantinople IS Orthodoxy.

Quote
So, your are both ignoramus, not knowing the difference between an autocephalous and autonomous Church and ill-intended Phanar chum that are not able to reed the Chalcedon canon!

Well, I must confess that I've never even attempted to 'reed' the canon...it sounds painful. However, I have read it, along with the interpretations of Balsamon, Zonaras, and Aristenos. I have read about the practical implications of the Synod, how Constantinople using the authority of the Synod deposed a Patriarch of Alexandria and how Constantinople using the aforementioned authority deposed a Patriarch of Antioch (Severus of Antioch, if you want specifics), then the Patriarch of Constantinople traveled to Antioch and personally installed his successor. So while I may not be as well read on these matters as would be ideal, and in some circles I may quite well be ignorant, I have a hunch that in this case I hold the upper intellectual hand, so to speak.

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You have no clue what I'm speaking about. By the decisions of Great Vezires of Ottoman Empire Patriarchate of Serbia has been liquidated twice and Patriarchate of Bulgaria once. They used Phanar as their proxy.

These are the canonical lands of Constantinople, she can grant and revoke autonomy at will.

Quote
You (whatever that may be) obviously do have. We, Orthodox Christians, obviously don't.
Who, the Jews? I know! Spatting at the Cross is their habit!

Quote
Oh, sorry, it isn't the hirotonia of Zlizloulas where Strobe Talbot has been attended. It is the elevation of Bartholomew to the Throne.

BTW, you apparently have no clue that masonry has been condemned by Orthodox councils...twice?

Twice? Pray tell. It would have been most useful had you chimed in with this in our discussion on masons so I could have torn them apart there...better late than never though.

Quote
We Orthodox are Easterners. You stay Western, along with Bosphoriacs, as you wish.

Christianity is an Imperial Religion, therefore it is by definition a Western Religion.

Quote
BTW, my family, my country and I were already targeted. You are not so awesome as you imagine. But that's the truth you still have to discover.

We haven't even put forth an effort since 1945...and you know what we did then, dont think we can't do it again.
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 03:53:08 PM »

This statement is completely un-Christian. It's funny how you say they're animals, yet you stoop to their level with statements like this. This actually sounds like something out of a muslim text, just substitute the word Christian for mohammedan, and you got yourself an extremist muslim statement.

It's a matter of self-defence, kill or be killed. I am simply suggesting we take the former course with all due haste, too many kind words will only lead to the destruction of civilization.

Quote
I find this statement amusing. So you truly believe that the before mentioned Patriarchates are not autocephalous?

They have a conditional autonomy, they can govern themselves so long as given the authority to do so by Constantinople; but these lands canonically belong to Constantinople so said autonomy can be revoked if deemed appropriate by Constantinople.
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 04:00:04 PM »

Dear GiC,

While I am not judging your person, I do find your comments extremely offensive, and ignorant.

Well, as a disclaimer, you have read my sig line? Haven't you?

Quote
A. Mohammedanism (Islam) is a RELIGION and not a race. There are Chinese, Scottish, and even GREEK Muslims...

According to the Ottomans it was a race, or an ethnos, that is to say an ethnicity. There was a time when ethnicity was determined by culture and religion, to change it to a matter of genetics is a rather modern innovation. I guess I was just being too traditionalist for OC.net. Wink

Quote
B. To classify ALL Muslims as terrorists is just as ignorant. While theologically speaking, they are wrong, yet there are millions of Muslims who are more Christlike than some who call themselves Christians.

The only 'moslems' who are Christlike are those who have rejected not only their religion but also their culture, for both prohibit any good or Christian behaviour. That is to say, only those who are not of the race of the mohammedan can be said to be Christlike in any way; they are a vile race to be sure.

Quote
C. To call on the destruction of a people is a very un-Christian attitude. You're putting yourself in the company of such people as Hitler when you do so.

'If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.' -- Winston Churchill

Quote
I could add sooo much more, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. And your decision to post the Israeli flag is very childish.

Why is it so 'childish' Israel is a sovereign and independent state and, truth be told, the best ally we as Christians have in the Middle East (not that that's saying much, except what it says about the Mohammedans).
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 04:02:43 PM »

According to the Ottomans it was a race, or an ethnos, that is to say an ethnicity. There was a time when ethnicity was determined by culture and religion, to change it to a matter of genetics is a rather modern innovation. I guess I was just being too traditionalist for OC.net. Wink

To a degree, it still occurs.  Look at Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 04:04:19 PM »

It's a matter of self-defence, kill or be killed. I am simply suggesting we take the former course with all due haste, too many kind words will only lead to the destruction of civilization.

Again, this is a completely ridiculous statement. The correct course of action would be to pray to our Lord that the muslim extremists who wish to harm us realize their mistakes and repent.

They have a conditional autonomy, they can govern themselves so long as given the authority to do so by Constantinople; but these lands canonically belong to Constantinople so said autonomy can be revoked if deemed appropriate by Constantinople.

I disagree with this, and so does most of the Orthodox Church not under the EP's jurisdiction. Please give me some evidence/examples that supports your claims that these Churches autocephalous status is just "conditional" and can be revoked.
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 04:09:24 PM »

Constantinople IS Orthodoxy.
Only to the extent there are Orthodox in Constantinopolis.
Quote
how Constantinople using the authority of the Synod deposed a Patriarch of Alexandria and how Constantinople using the aforementioned authority deposed a Patriarch of Antioch (Severus of Antioch, if you want specifics), then the Patriarch of Constantinople traveled to Antioch and personally installed his successor.
These were the times when an Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinopolis was deposing heretics. There were also cases when Orthodox Popes of Rome deposed heretical Patriarchs of Constantinopolis.
Quote
These are the canonical lands of Constantinople, she can grant and revoke autonomy at will.
No, it can't since these are not autonomies than autocephalous Churches. But Ottomans did it. Using Phanar as their proxy.
Quote
Christianity is an Imperial Religion, therefore it is by definition a Western Religion.
It is obvious that you and I are not of the same faith.
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We haven't even put forth an effort since 1945...and you know what we did then, dont think we can't do it again.
Poor chunk, these were Russians that did it. You needed to relieve Lucky Luciano from prison to secure you entry into Sicily.
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They have a conditional autonomy, they can govern themselves so long as given the authority to do so by Constantinople; but these lands canonically belong to Constantinople so said autonomy can be revoked if deemed appropriate by Constantinople.
This stupidity should be remembered.
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2007, 05:41:42 PM »

Well, as a disclaimer, you have read my sig line? Haven't you?
Are you a secret agent for the Phanar or are you a Christian? Loyalties cannot be divided. Will the Phanar be your advocate when you face the dread judgement seat of Christ?

According to the Ottomans it was a race, or an ethnos, that is to say an ethnicity. There was a time when ethnicity was determined by culture and religion, to change it to a matter of genetics is a rather modern innovation. I guess I was just being too traditionalist for OC.net. Wink
Or backwards.  Cheesy

The only 'moslems' who are Christlike are those who have rejected not only their religion but also their culture, for both prohibit any good or Christian behaviour. That is to say, only those who are not of the race of the mohammedan can be said to be Christlike in any way; they are a vile race to be sure.
Is the Phanar the Greek equivalent of the American Klu Klux Klan?

'If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.' -- Winston Churchill
Roll Eyes

Why is it so 'childish' Israel is a sovereign and independent state...
Israel's standing as a Sovereign nation wasn't being called into question. I respectfully submit that your posting the Israeli flag wasn't/isn't to argue the point of sovereignty, but rather a belligerent act on your part to incite more discord.

It's a matter of self-defence, kill or be killed.
Yes, there are many things that bear defending, but there is a difference between self-defense and murder. As Christians, GiC, it is WE who set the standard. Turning the other is not a 'one-size-fits-all' dictum, but neither is it an antiquated philosophy.

 Getting back on track, I am inclined to accept that Irineos' removal might be a frame-up. We know from Kyriacos Markides' book Gifts of the Desert that these things do indeed happen, as is the case of Bishop Maximos. We also have the example of St. Nektarios, Bishop of Rhoades(?) who was removed and then found innocent of the charges. Both of these men humbly accepted their fates and not once tried to defend themselves. This is indeed a great picture of humility.

 Respectfully,

 Gabriel
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 07:44:01 PM »

We also have the example of St. Nektarios, Bishop of Rhoades(?)
St. Nektarios was the Bishop of Pentapolis under the Patriarchate of Alexandria, when he was expelled. He did actually appeal his expulsion to the Patriarch of Alexandria and received no response. He would have been perfectly within his rights to appeal to the Patriach of Constantinople, but he chose not to. Interestingly, it wasn't until 1998 (over a century after his expulsion) that the Synod of the Patriachate of Alexandria formally retracted it's deposing of St. Nektarios and asked his forgiveness: http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/History/st_nect.htm

We are funny creatures, really...
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2007, 07:47:00 PM »

I'm of the opinion that Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus could solve the problems in the middle east. It's just my opinion, but I'm open to the possibility that I could be wrong Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 07:55:42 PM »

I'm of the opinion that Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus could solve the problems in the middle east.
I'll just have to take your word on that. Is there any possibility that either of them could be ordained? What if one of them were Patriarch of Jerusalem and the other was Patriarch of Antioch?
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 07:58:54 PM »

I have not read what the cannons have to say about ordaining transformers. I will say that I learned from the family guy that Optimus Prime is Jewish!!


http://youtube.com/watch?v=03I6GN6vIq4


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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 07:59:21 PM »

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it that if one group of Orthodox Christians has 'beef' with Jews, it's automatically decided that he/she are allied with Muslims and vice versa? (Keeping in mind our Arabic Christian brothers and sisters.)

As the One,True,Faith, we needn't be allign with anyone but ourselves, correct? Personally, I would first seek reconciliation with Orthodox Christians who are viewed as "heretic" "schismatic" or whatever else we call each other these days, than play the political games of the Middle East.

One thing is evidently clear to me. There is hatred amongts Orthodox Christians over matters of false authority. This to me is more troubling than our modernist views of jurisdiction and supremacy. Heck, curbing our hatred of our brothers seems to be even more important than canonical matters. Constantinople is not Orthodoxy, Christ is Orthodoxy.

Please forgive my ingorance or if my words are not up to the standards of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2007, 08:08:35 PM »

I have not read what the cannons have to say about ordaining transformers. I will say that I learned from the family guy that Optimus Prime is Jewish!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=03I6GN6vIq4

LOL Cheesy. OK then, I think we have our Patriarch of Jerusalem. And just let anyone try to refuse to recognise him!
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2007, 09:54:27 PM »

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it that if one group of Orthodox Christians has 'beef' with Jews, it's automatically decided that he/she are allied with Muslims and vice versa? (Keeping in mind our Arabic Christian brothers and sisters.)

 This is a great question, however, the answer may prove to be too difficult to summarize (sp?). But I will try Wink It's seems we humans have a need to label each other; we need to fit each other into compartments that are readily identifiable. So when we hear someone say anti-this, we automatically assume they are pro-that. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it isn't. Now, when we throw in anything about the Middle East, people tend to become, shall we say, defensive and wary, about others' opinions or views. I've heard it said by Muslims, Christians, and Jews, that the Holy Land makes extremists out of everyone. It's easy to see by all the posts (past and present) on this subject that there's some truth to this. Because of the ubiquitous Palestinian/Jewish debate, a majority of people either forget, or simply don't know (and sadly, don't care), that there are ancient Christian communities all over the Middle East. The situation is complicated further in the Holy Land because many of the Arab Christians living there are also Palestinians (some who have been displaced from their homes since 1948.). Palestinian Christians sympathize with Palestinian Muslims, because they too, are living under an oppressive Zionist occupation. BUT, it would be foolish to assume that that sympathy goes any further. Palestinians Christians live precarious lives between two opposing religions and they're often caught up in struggles they want nothing to do with, regardless of any sympathies to Palestinian Muslims. I should also point out that Palestinian Christians are also sympathetic to their Jewish neighbors because they too have been caught in roadside and cafe bombings like their Jewish neighbors. I submit that because of these complexities, when one of us hears something that sounds pro-this, we assume they are anti-that. Peoples' lives, both Jewish and Palestinians, are routinely disrupted because of violence and hatred. The situation demands patience and understanding and not least, love.

 Respectfully,

 Gabriel     


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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2007, 11:04:59 PM »

This is a great question, however, the answer may prove to be too difficult to summarize (sp?). But I will try Wink It's seems we humans have a need to label each other; we need to fit each other into compartments that are readily identifiable. So when we hear someone say anti-this, we automatically assume they are pro-that. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it isn't. Now, when we throw in anything about the Middle East, people tend to become, shall we say, defensive and wary, about others' opinions or views. I've heard it said by Muslims, Christians, and Jews, that the Holy Land makes extremists out of everyone. It's easy to see by all the posts (past and present) on this subject that there's some truth to this. Because of the ubiquitous Palestinian/Jewish debate, a majority of people either forget, or simply don't know (and sadly, don't care), that there are ancient Christian communities all over the Middle East. The situation is complicated further in the Holy Land because many of the Arab Christians living there are also Palestinians (some who have been displaced from their homes since 1948.). Palestinian Christians sympathize with Palestinian Muslims, because they too, are living under an oppressive Zionist occupation. BUT, it would be foolish to assume that that sympathy goes any further. Palestinians Christians live precarious lives between two opposing religions and they're often caught up in struggles they want nothing to do with, regardless of any sympathies to Palestinian Muslims. I should also point out that Palestinian Christians are also sympathetic to their Jewish neighbors because they too have been caught in roadside and cafe bombings like their Jewish neighbors. I submit that because of these complexities, when one of us hears something that sounds pro-this, we assume they are anti-that. Peoples' lives, both Jewish and Palestinians, are routinely disrupted because of violence and hatred. The situation demands patience and understanding and not least, love.

The problem is that the Christians in the region made the wrong Choice. Had the Palestinian Christians welcomed first the British then the Israelis as liberators rather than occupiers and used the British and then Israelis as allies against their mohammedan neighbours, it would have been the mohammedans, not the Christians, who would have been forced out of the region and that region, alone amongst the regions of the middle east, would today enjoy peace. They made bad decisions over the last century, and have paid dearly for them. You would think that people would learn from their mistakes, but they are ignorant of even recent history and continue to create artificial hardship. While many palestinians may oppose the path I propose, in the long run what I advocate would benifit them. The jews in this day and age are, by necessity, the allies of Christians and by necessity we share a common enemy, the vile mohammedan race. The sooner the Christians in the region realize this the sooner they too will be able to participate in the blessings of western civilization that is being bestwoed upon them by the State of Israel.
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« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2007, 11:37:32 PM »

The problem is that the Christians in the region made the wrong Choice. Had the Palestinian Christians welcomed first the British then the Israelis as liberators rather than occupiers and used the British and then Israelis as allies against their mohammedan neighbours, it would have been the mohammedans, not the Christians, who would have been forced out of the region and that region, alone amongst the regions of the middle east, would today enjoy peace.

I see. Another Crusade. Just what the world needs. Wink
And given the fact that T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) represented British interests in the region and managed to help establish Muslim states there, I think your assessment is somewhat simplistic.
I think the Palestinian Christians realised long before you did that "my enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend."
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007, 11:43:28 PM »

The problem is that the Christians in the region made the wrong Choice. Had the Palestinian Christians welcomed first the British then the Israelis as liberators rather than occupiers and used the British and then Israelis as allies against their mohammedan neighbours, it would have been the mohammedans, not the Christians, who would have been forced out of the region and that region, alone amongst the regions of the middle east, would today enjoy peace. They made bad decisions over the last century, and have paid dearly for them. You would think that people would learn from their mistakes, but they are ignorant of even recent history and continue to create artificial hardship. While many palestinians may oppose the path I propose, in the long run what I advocate would benifit them. The jews in this day and age are, by necessity, the allies of Christians and by necessity we share a common enemy, the vile mohammedan race. The sooner the Christians in the region realize this the sooner they too will be able to participate in the blessings of western civilization that is being bestwoed upon them by the State of Israel.

Perhaps this has to do more with ideological sympathies than with moral tendencies? Palestine has stronger ties to the Russian Federation, the then Soviet Union (A Orthodox Nation, regardless of the mastive persecution against them) than they do with the United States and UK who, we have to admit are not always the 'most gentle' when it comes to 'nation building.' I mean, are Orthodox Christians for or against the idea of a "geographical" Isreal even though we understand Christians to be the continuation of Isreal? It seems to mean, this is paradoxical..

I think people, even us Orthodox Chrisitians, tend to cling more to ideologies than with a pure concept of the Orthodox Church. It's all ethnopyletism.
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« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2007, 03:17:27 AM »

St. Nektarios was the Bishop of Pentapolis under the Patriarchate of Alexandria, when he was expelled. He did actually appeal his expulsion to the Patriarch of Alexandria and received no response. He would have been perfectly within his rights to appeal to the Patriach of Constantinople, but he chose not to. Interestingly, it wasn't until 1998 (over a century after his expulsion) that the Synod of the Patriachate of Alexandria formally retracted it's deposing of St. Nektarios and asked his forgiveness: http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/History/st_nect.htm

We are funny creatures, really...

 Indeed. And thanks for the correction, friend.

 Gabriel
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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2007, 03:47:06 AM »

The problem is that the Christians in the region made the wrong Choice. Had the Palestinian Christians welcomed first the British...
The Palestinians did welcome the British insofar as they wanted out from under the Turkish yoke. The British, being Christians themselves, were the better choice (given that they were forced to choose in the first place).

then the Israelis as liberators rather than occupiers and used the British and then Israelis as allies against their mohammedan neighbours, it would have been the mohammedans, not the Christians, who would have been forced out of the region and that region,...
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians, were forced out of their homes and relegated to second class citizens. Secondly, huh?!

You would think that people would learn from their mistakes, but they are ignorant of even recent history and continue to create artificial hardship.
No doubt you have examples to back up your "assertions"?...Please provide them.

While many palestinians may oppose the path I propose, in the long run what I advocate would benifit them. The jews in this day and age are, by necessity, the allies of Christians and by necessity we share a common enemy, the vile mohammedan race. The sooner the Christians in the region realize this the sooner they too will be able to participate in the blessings of western civilization that is being bestwoed upon them by the State of Israel.
You haven't proposed any 'path'. You've simply A) spouted a lot of rascist, xenophobic nonsense and B) proven that the internet gives even the most ignorant of buffoons a voice.
 
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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2007, 05:00:12 AM »

I think people, even us Orthodox Chrisitians, tend to cling more to ideologies than with a pure concept of the Orthodox Church. It's all ethnopyletism.


I wouldn't call it ethnophyletism, since it's rather based in political views, but having in mind it discriminates our Arab/Palestinians brothers and sisters, what you say isn't completely incorrect. But I'd rather call it Arabophobia.

Quote from: ozgeorge
And given the fact that T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) represented British interests in the region and managed to help establish Muslim states there, I think your assessment is somewhat simplistic.

Lawrence tried to help establishment of Arab country, not the Muslim one. Our Arab brothers and sisters managed to survive in Palestine ever since Patriarch Sophronius delivered the keys of the city to the Muslim conquerors in 7th century.

Quote from: Jibrail Almuhajir
The situation is complicated further in the Holy Land because many of the Arab Christians living there are also Palestinians (some who have been displaced from their homes since 1948.). Palestinian Christians sympathize with Palestinian Muslims, because they too, are living under an oppressive Zionist occupation.

While it is absolutely outrageous to listen someone saying they are somehow our “second class” brothers and sisters because they found their neighbors as allies against the oppressive occupation. Christians were the first target in Palestine and Middle East. Allying with Brits and Zionist wasn't helpful to Assyrians. They were exterminated no matter what.
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2007, 05:01:32 AM »

...
 You haven't proposed any 'path'. You've simply A) spouted a lot of rascist, xenophobic nonsense and B) proven that the internet gives even the most ignorant of buffoons a voice.



Nothing to add.
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 05:53:00 AM »

Lawrence tried to help establishment of Arab country, not the Muslim one.
Not so. Lawrence of Arabia's own notes show that he knew he was working to establish Muslim rule.
See for example T. E. Lawrence's Twenty-Seven Articles with particular note to article 21 where he says:
Quote
Religious discussions will be frequent. Say what you like about your own side, and avoid criticism of theirs, unless you know that the point is external, when you may score heavily by proving it so. With the Bedu, Islam is so all-pervading an element that there is little religiosity, little fervour, and no regard for externals. Do not think from their conduct that they are careless. Their conviction of the truth of their faith, and its share in every act and thought and principle of their daily life is so intimate and intense as to be unconscious, unless roused by opposition. Their religion is as much a part of nature to them as is sleep or food.

And in the Imperial War Museum is the map drawn by T.E. Lawrence with his vision of the future Arabia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/Lawrence_map800.jpg
I'm not sure how Christians were supposed to avoid dhimmitude under Kings Feisal, Abdullah and Zeid
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2007, 06:56:47 AM »

Not so. Lawrence of Arabia's own notes show that ...

We are reading differently the same text. Having in mind what's been said about the mentality of the Muslim population in the text, what else could have been done to establish the society there and offer solid grounds for existence of Christians?

Quote
I'm not sure how Christians were supposed to avoid dhimmitude under Kings Feisal, Abdullah and Zeid

They weren't! They were supposed to live in dhimmitude! Because it can't be otherwise within a Muslim majority!

But the dhimmitude itself can vary from unbearable oppression and humiliation of dhimmies to almost the comfortable position. That's what the history teaches us. Look at the Orthodox Christians in Syria – they are upper high class in Damascus.

My knowledge about dhimmitude is limited. It's only my surname I bear after my ascendant who killed a Turk who wanted to marry his daughter some 250 years ago, so the family had to flee to another place with what they could have taken in their hands, and probably with some livestock. These were the times of our captivity under Ottomans for some 350 years. So, anyone having better knowledge and deeper experience is welcome to teach me.

In any case, my Palestinian/Arab brothers know better how to arrange their life with their neighbors than I know for them. And they know much better than I do  who are their neighbors and who are their oppressors. George Habash, “the Doctor” knew it.

Don't forget there used to be Chrusaders' states in the Palestine for two centuries between 11th and 13th century. Arab Orthodox managed to survive it and to survive Muslims for yet another 7 centuries. Once the balance of power in the Middle East change again, they'd be left on their own, as they were in fact always left so.

They do need our support, not patronizing and dictate of ignoramus.

And nothing of that came from Bosphorus recently. It couldn't have come. Constantinopolis is under the heavy yoke of “powers that be”. So one wonder if Constantinopolis would be better off in the refuge in Mount Athos.

In any case, they are only creating disorder and outrage these days and our patience is not endless. And they should know that.
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2007, 09:40:05 AM »

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But the dhimmitude itself can vary from unbearable oppression and humiliation of dhimmies to almost the comfortable position. That's what the history teaches us.

History teaches us the fate of Christians under Dhimmitude is one of inevitable decline and repression.  There is a base level of inequity and mild degradation, but often this veers in to overt oppression and/or annihilation.

Quote
Look at the Orthodox Christians in Syria – they are upper high class in Damascus.

The Baathists are secular, who exploit Islamist elements when they feel there is political benefit.  That's why Christians were able to gain a certain level of power in both Syria and Iraq.
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2007, 11:43:49 AM »

History teaches us the fate of Christians under Dhimmitude is one of inevitable decline and repression.  There is a base level of inequity and mild degradation, but often this veers in to overt oppression and/or annihilation.

Did I say anything different?

BTW, read again paragraph 4 of my post above. Than speak dhimmitude with me if you think you have something to say.
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2007, 11:59:48 AM »

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Did I say anything different?

Yes you did, there is no comfortable position in Dhimmitude.  The example pointed to of Syria shows that it is the lack of an apparatus of political Islam (and in fact distance drawn from it) that brought about the safe position of Christians in society.  That in itself is of course no safeguard for Christians as the case of Turkey shows.  Syria and Iraq were different because Christians were not seen as a threat to the prevalent nationalist identity.  The same holds true for the Druze in Syria.  What also helps Christians in these areas is a split between Islamic sects.
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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2007, 12:18:28 PM »

But the dhimmitude itself can vary from unbearable oppression and humiliation of dhimmies to almost the comfortable position. That's what the history teaches us. Look at the Orthodox Christians in Syria – they are upper high class in Damascus.

Quote from: welkodox
Yes you did, ...

Any conversation is useless if the other one doesn't read what's actually been posted.
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2007, 01:25:29 PM »

MODERATION:
...but there is no need to attack the person.

I apologize to GiC and anyone else whom I offended or hurt by these comments. Clearly, this is not how Christians behave towards others.

Not so. Lawrence of Arabia's own notes show that he knew he was working to establish Muslim rule.
Hi George. I do not interpret his notes in this way. Lawrence wanted to help free the Arabs, who mostly happened to be Muslim, from Turkish rule. It's unclear from his notes that he wanted Islam to be the law of the land. It could be argued that because most Arabs were/are Muslim, the point you're making is de facto, but Lawrence also was gaining their respect to eventually pave the way for missionary activity.


I believe OrthodoxLurker and Welkodox are basically arguing the same point. While it is true that the Qur'an stipulates that 'people of the book' (ahl al-kitab, namely Christians and Jews), are free from military conscript, because they are not Muslim, they must pay a 'protection' tax called 'jizya'. It designates them to a 'protected' status. Dhimmitude is a segregationist policy as both of you are aknowledging. How the various kingdoms, and now countries, in the Middle East, interpreted 'Dhimmi', is what OrthodoxLurker is basically pointing out, while Welkodox, if I understood correctly, is rightly pointing out that, eventually, these kingdoms and countries lose their 'protection' understanding of dhimmi and soon begin campaigns of 'inevitable decline and destruction'.

...are Orthodox Christians for or against the idea of a "geographical" Isreal even though we understand Christians to be the continuation of Isreal? It seems to mean, this is paradoxical..  It's all ethnopyletism.

It's paradoxical in the sense that we Orthodox should be concerned not only with where a group of people who practice a different religion will live, but what will happen to the Orthodox population once they arrive? I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned with Jewish welfare, it's just at what cost can a group of people be allowed to be placated? Unfortunately, rather than praying for all souls involved, it does tend to break down into ethnophyletism. I'm not advocating for the dismanteling of Israel, nor am I advocating for an Arab Patriarch in Jerusalem. But doesn't it strike us as a bit odd that Arab Christians don't have much of a say in their own homes?

 Gabriel
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PM »

They weren't! They were supposed to live in dhimmitude! Because it can't be otherwise within a Muslim majority!

And the solutionsI have thus far offered is to eliminate the Moslem majority, through whatever means necessary. It would seem that any reasonable person would see the benifit in this position. If the religion of the Mohammedan is as deeply linked to them as food and sleep, they perhaps we can target all three simultaneously. There are more ways than one to skin a cat, or a mohammedan as the case may be.

Quote
But the dhimmitude itself can vary from unbearable oppression and humiliation of dhimmies to almost the comfortable position. That's what the history teaches us. Look at the Orthodox Christians in Syria – they are upper high class in Damascus.

Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. If these people have actively chosen that they prefer servitude and safety to freedom and death, then we can write them off as collaborators.

Quote
In any case, my Palestinian/Arab brothers know better how to arrange their life with their neighbors than I know for them. And they know much better than I do  who are their neighbors and who are their oppressors. George Habash, “the Doctor” knew it.

Oh, they are free to choose, but if they decide to ally themselves with the enemies of western civilization, the mohammedan, then they're fair game. The Italians were perfectly free to ally themsleves with Nazi Germany in the 1930's, but choices have consequences and in doing so they shared fault in the belligerent actions of the Third Reich and were justly targeted by the allied powers (not that they were by perfect otherwise). I believe they made a poor choice, but they are entitled to their choice...may we meet on opposite sides of the field of battle (well, I dont think we should actually put OUR soldiers in harm's way, especially with all our technological advancements in AI...what I really mean is that may our machines meet their people on opposite sides of the field of battle...but you get the metaphor).

Quote
They do need our support, not patronizing and dictate of ignoramus.

There are only two sides in this battle, I would advise not choosing the wrong one.

Quote
And nothing of that came from Bosphorus recently. It couldn't have come. Constantinopolis is under the heavy yoke of “powers that be”. So one wonder if Constantinopolis would be better off in the refuge in Mount Athos.

In any case, they are only creating disorder and outrage these days and our patience is not endless. And they should know that.

Fine, break communion with the Oecumenical Throne and leave the Christian Church...don't let the door hit you on the way out...or do let it, I really don't care either way.
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2007, 02:00:36 PM »

All this can be settled when the true Church of Constantinople is re-established, which I believe it will be under the protection of Russia and Balkan states.  Unfortunately we will be probably at war against Orthodoxy in our quest to proclaim western democrary to those who don't want it.  When Turkey falls and it could be this year, may God grant that the Great Church will be restored to true Orthodoxy.  See y'all after the Apostles Fast (for GOA that is the Fast you abolished with your calendar change).
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2007, 02:04:52 PM »

All this can be settled when the true Church of Constantinople is re-established, which I believe it will be under the protection of Russia and Balkan states.  Unfortunately we will be probably at war against Orthodoxy in our quest to proclaim western democrary to those who don't want it.  When Turkey falls and it could be this year, may God grant that the Great Church will be restored to true Orthodoxy.  See y'all after the Apostles Fast (for GOA that is the Fast you abolished with your calendar change).

All we have to do is change our calculation of Pascha and we'll get it back Grin
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2007, 02:08:58 PM »

See y'all after the Apostles Fast (for GOA that is the Fast you abolished with your calendar change).

Uhhh...no.

Apostle's Fast starts Monday! Eat your non-fasting foods now!

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