OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 30, 2014, 12:52:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sex & Patristics  (Read 538 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,763


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: July 20, 2013, 04:05:16 AM »

This has probably been overdone to the moon and back times ten, but what the heck, let's do it again.

The New Testament seems pretty vague on its sexual ordinances. It forbids adultery and prostitution, and Christ condemns us from looking at each other with sexual intent, but then you have St. Paul using blanket and somewhat relative terms like "sexual immorality" or "fornication," both of which are translated from pornea, which has several definitions.

That being said, how does one define "sexual immorality" as different cultures have different views? As has been said several times--and quite controversially so--the New Testament never condemns polygamy, likewise, it never condemns sex outside of marriage (AFAIK), which, is one of my problems with Bibles that use the term "fornication," as the word usually means pre-marital sex, even though pornea has several meanings.

That being said, what does the Patristic tradition tell us? What is the earliest definitive source we have on it? Is there perhaps a Canon or quote by the ANFs defining what is sexually immoral and what is not? Does the Didache mention it? What is the first Christian source to explicitly state that all sexual relations outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage are immoral? How did the Fathers understand "pornea"?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,252


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2013, 04:42:47 AM »

James, as a good orthodox Christian, you'll just have to be patient. Find a good Orthodox woman, get married, and then you can satisfy her and yourself, with mutual consent, of course. Anything else is a sin, I'm afraid.

IOW, your post is looking for loopholes in "allowing" you to act out on your urges.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2013, 04:43:47 AM »

Quote
The New Testament seems pretty vague on its sexual ordinances.

Not really.  James, just accept the fact you are supposed to curb your desires and wait for marriage, without rushing into a marriage.  There are no loopholes.  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:44:16 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2013, 04:45:30 AM »

James, as a good orthodox Christian, you'll just have to be patient. Find a good Orthodox woman, get married, and then you can satisfy her and yourself, with mutual consent, of course. Anything else is a sin, I'm afraid.

IOW, your post is looking for loopholes in "allowing" you to act out on your urges.
You beat me to it.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,763


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2013, 04:48:42 AM »

James, as a good orthodox Christian,

I'm not a "good" Orthodox Christian  Wink I'm like the semi-fat kid in PE with really no athletic skill who joins the team of skilled athletes and is able to "slip through the cracks" and share in his team's victory even though he didn't do anything.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,252


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 05:23:47 AM »

James, as a good orthodox Christian,

I'm not a "good" Orthodox Christian  Wink I'm like the semi-fat kid in PE with really no athletic skill who joins the team of skilled athletes and is able to "slip through the cracks" and share in his team's victory even though he didn't do anything.

That's not the point. Only God is good. But that's no excuse to look for ways to get your jollies outside of the clearly-specified circumstances set out by the Church, by appealing to novel interpretations of terminology within scripture and patristics.  police
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 05:25:15 AM by LBK » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 06:13:18 AM »

I'm not a "good" Orthodox Christian  Wink I'm like the semi-fat kid in PE with really no athletic skill who joins the team of skilled athletes and is able to "slip through the cracks" and share in his team's victory even though he didn't do anything.

Keep up your "semi-fat kid in PE" prayer and you'll be good!
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 06:30:29 AM »

I honestly don't know where to go with this. I've read a few books on sexuality in the Church, but I don't think any of them would really do you any good. Let's look at just one thing you said:

That being said, how does one define "sexual immorality" as different cultures have different views? As has been said several times--and quite controversially so--the New Testament never condemns polygamy, likewise, it never condemns sex outside of marriage (AFAIK),

So far as I know the New Testament doesn't condemn child molestation either. The Bible doesn't really work like that. It's not a rule book. Even the Old Testament, for all it's laws, is not a rule book. It has six hundred and some laws. That's not enough laws to base a society on. It's enough to provide a foundation, to give principles, and then you can figure out based on them how to deal with stuff not explicitly mentioned. Now, as for premarital sex, what principles does the Bible give to point us in a certain direction? Well, there's the passage (Deut. 22) about how if a girl shows up on her wedding night, and the evidence seems to point to her having already had sex, and the husband isn't down with that, they can stone her to death. STONE HER TO DEATH. Seems like they took that premarital sex thing pretty seriously.

You will find similarly unpleasant passages, both scriptural and patristic, if you keep looking. I certainly did. Don't ask questions if you aren't ready for the answers. Ask your priest. He will give you a much easier answer to deal with than Sts. Augustine or John Chrysostom.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 06:31:29 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 14,167


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2013, 10:02:37 AM »

This again?

If he's wondering whether the stance of the Church has changed, it hasn't.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

spcasuncoast.org
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,646


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 10:55:25 AM »

What LBK and Kerdy said. The truth is the truth, there are no loopholes.
Logged

As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 12:29:43 PM »

This has probably been overdone to the moon and back times ten, but what the heck, let's do it again.

The New Testament seems pretty vague on its sexual ordinances. It forbids adultery and prostitution, and Christ condemns us from looking at each other with sexual intent, but then you have St. Paul using blanket and somewhat relative terms like "sexual immorality" or "fornication," both of which are translated from pornea, which has several definitions.

That being said, how does one define "sexual immorality" as different cultures have different views? As has been said several times--and quite controversially so--the New Testament never condemns polygamy, likewise, it never condemns sex outside of marriage (AFAIK), which, is one of my problems with Bibles that use the term "fornication," as the word usually means pre-marital sex, even though pornea has several meanings.

That being said, what does the Patristic tradition tell us? What is the earliest definitive source we have on it? Is there perhaps a Canon or quote by the ANFs defining what is sexually immoral and what is not? Does the Didache mention it? What is the first Christian source to explicitly state that all sexual relations outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage are immoral? How did the Fathers understand "pornea"?
The high priests, Sadducees and Pharisees they all understood better than many subsequent generations that Christ's message had great political implications.  And that Christ didn't come to establish a sexual purity cult . I think from the Gospels alone it's hard to come up with any detailed sexual ethics. but there is quite a bit that undermines the strict sexual ethics of the day.  Paul is more concerned with these things, but ...
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 9,600


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 12:34:13 PM »

Paul is more concerned with these things, but ...

But?
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 12:39:25 PM »

Paul is more concerned with these things, but ...

But?
But have a bottle of wine when reading through them. That illumines away many conundrums- theological included.
Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »

Actually, the Apostles who were married left their families to follow Him.

Quote from: Matthew 19
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.

Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Celibacy goes hand in hand with the eschatology of the first Christians:

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 7
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 01:08:33 PM by Romaios » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,929


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 03:40:36 PM »

That being said, how does one define "sexual immorality" as different cultures have different views? As has been said several times--and quite controversially so--the New Testament never condemns polygamy, likewise, it never condemns sex outside of marriage (AFAIK), which, is one of my problems with Bibles that use the term "fornication," as the word usually means pre-marital sex, even though pornea has several meanings.

It's true that different cultures have different views, but usually not along the lines you seem to be thinking.  For instance, if I meet a female friend at church, we might exchange a kiss on the cheek.  No one here would think anything of it.  But in another cultural setting (like India), that would be pretty scandalous.  Then again, I could hold hands with a guy there, even intertwining fingers with his, and no one would think anything of it there.  But here, it would be enough to make people question my orientation.  

Regarding "sexual immorality", I think most cultures have the same basic intuitions about what's not acceptable.  The current tendency to encourage a more free sexual expression in the West is not a matter of culture, IMO.  There's nothing cultivated about it.      

Quote
That being said, what does the Patristic tradition tell us?

Nothing any of us really wants to hear unless we're in the mood to be saintly.  Tongue  

Quote
What is the earliest definitive source we have on it? Is there perhaps a Canon or quote by the ANFs defining what is sexually immoral and what is not? Does the Didache mention it?

I don't expect much from those sources: they likely wouldn't have spent a lot of time rehashing what they took to be "common sense".  

Quote
What is the first Christian source to explicitly state that all sexual relations outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage are immoral?

Jesus.  Mt. 5.27-28.  "Relations" begin in the heart and the mind long before they happen in the groin (if they even get that far).  And, regarding your question above about "different cultures" and their standards, I suppose his principle is a good lens through which to analyze various situations, possibilities, and the motivations of people.    

Quote
How did the Fathers understand "pornea"?

See above.  And see Asteriktos' post.  

Edited to add a Tongue
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 03:41:55 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2013, 03:48:30 PM »

Regarding "sexual immorality", I think most cultures have the same basic intuitions about what's not acceptable.  

The big cultural differences relate to what's acceptable in marriage, or the acceptability of ending a marriage and entering into a new one. Outside of marriage things seem pretty uniform.

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »

Actually, the Apostles who were married left their families to follow Him.

Quote from: Matthew 19
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.

Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."
Not quite:
Quote
Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas [i.e. Peter]?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
Quote
Clement [of Alexandria], indeed, whose words we have just quoted, after the above-mentioned facts gives a statement, on account of those who rejected marriage, of the apostles that had wives. Or will they, says he, reject even the apostles? For Peter and Philip begot children; and Philip also gave his daughters in marriage. And Paul does not hesitate, in one of his epistles, to greet his wife, whom he did not take about with him, that he might not be inconvenienced in his ministry.

And since we have mentioned this subject it is not improper to subjoin another account which is given by the same author and which is worth reading. In the seventh book of his Stromata he writes as follows: They say, accordingly, that when the blessed Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, 'Remember the Lord.' Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their perfect disposition toward those dearest to them. This account being in keeping with the subject in hand, I have related here in its proper place.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2013, 04:29:30 PM »

Not quite:
Quote
Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas [i.e. Peter]?

ἀδελφὴν γυναῖκα does not necessarily imply a wife, as this translator (boldly) renders it.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
Quote
Clement [of Alexandria], indeed, whose words we have just quoted, after the above-mentioned facts gives a statement, on account of those who rejected marriage, of the apostles that had wives. Or will they, says he, reject even the apostles? For Peter and Philip begot children; and Philip also gave his daughters in marriage. And Paul does not hesitate, in one of his epistles, to greet his wife, whom he did not take about with him, that he might not be inconvenienced in his ministry.

That St. Peter and St. Philip were married is not disputed. Whether they lived as husband and wife with their spouses after the Resurrection is doubtful, though not impossible nor in any way illegitimate. As for St. Paul, I wouldn't trust what Eusebius or Clement of Alexandria say here to be historically accurate. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:31:49 PM by Romaios » Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,873



« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2013, 08:26:33 PM »

I suppose if you are able to have sex with a girl outside of marriage while never looking upon her lustfully, then go for it I guess?  Huh

I personally was never able to master such a feat.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 47 queries.