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Author Topic: They Miss You Guys!  (Read 5864 times) Average Rating: 0
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Catholicious
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« on: May 12, 2003, 04:09:04 PM »

Here is the post on theCBBS.com, they miss you guys, well at least there is a post asking where you guys went.

http://forums.christianity.com/html/P523418/?sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2003, 05:19:07 PM »

Catholicious,

Please do us a favor and respond to the person that says "on an Orthodox forum they would delete posts that disagreed with Orthodox doctrine" and say something like, "at the website where the Orthodox posters post, Protestants post their beliefs freely and there is discussion of those beliefs."

anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2003, 07:26:44 PM »

Catholicious -

Interesting.

I tried to login over there to respond to that thread.

I received the message "Your account has been disabled by the forum administrators." !

I guess that means I am banned. But they didn't bother to inform me by email.

Oh well, that is just like them!  Tongue

(Yeah; they miss me.)
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2003, 02:47:11 PM »

I could not get there before they terminated the post; however, I think prodromos was able to post your
requested comments on that thread.  They closed many posts today that I replied to today so the trend continues.

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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2003, 02:57:33 PM »

How ironic ... they  closed the thread at TBTSNBN

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We declared a moratorium on all orthodox discussions.

Some individuals did not appreciate that and moved on.

We reserve the right to allow or disallow individuals from utilizing our services as their personal bully pulpit for their pet subject.

Question answered, thread closed.
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2003, 03:01:08 PM »

I wonder if Conciliar Press financially supports Christianity.com through being hosted on their site ?
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2003, 07:44:11 PM »

How ironic ... they  closed the thread at TBTSNBN

Quote
We declared a moratorium on all orthodox discussions.

Some individuals did not appreciate that and moved on.

We reserve the right to allow or disallow individuals from utilizing our services as their personal bully pulpit for their pet subject.

Question answered, thread closed.

Who wrote that blurb? Do you know?

What a snide sort of comment, the bit about "their personal bully pulpit for their pet subject."

Who had a "bully pulpit?"

I thought everyone was free to discuss his point of view within the rules of civility (regularly violated by the Fundies). Every member could post. No one person had the whole forum to himself.

What makes Orthodox Christianity a "pet subject" and Evangelical Protestantism the simple, unvarnished truth?

Some "moved on?" We were railroaded out of there!

Now I cannot even post there if I want to; the forum administrators have "disabled my account" (i.e., banned me).

I have wondered about Conciliar Press being associated with that web site myself. Do they know what goes on over there? Perhaps they should consider pulling their advertising.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 07:46:23 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2003, 07:45:14 PM »

Hello. . . someone posted a link to this site so I thought I'd come say hello to those of you I  used to talk to . . . .

I really miss the input of the Orthodox community -- even though I disagree with lots of it!  And I think it is a shame that there can't be a "Christianity" board which truly means all Christianity. . . I'm glad your site encourages diverse posters to post. . . this was my first experience with a thread getting "locked" for content on Christianity.com, and I must say it was quite irritating. . .

Anyway, just wanted to say hello, and if any of you want to come back over I think at least some of us would welcome you.

Oh, and by the way, it was Fritz who posted that about the "bully pulpit," when he closed the thread.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 07:47:47 PM by ljs3mil » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2003, 07:50:44 PM »

Hi, ljs3mil! Welcome!

CBBS began deleting Orthodox and Roman Catholic posts and locking down threads a couple of months ago.

I cannot post there now. The forum admins disabled my account (without even notifying me by email of their intent to do so).

You might want to try www.crossandflame.com . It seems a much more open forum. A lot of us visit there now.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 07:53:51 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2003, 07:54:55 PM »

Yeah, I've been over there a couple of times. . . .but a lot of the discussions seem to be more about opinion than about scripture or church history. . . they definitely seem more diverse, but it seems like quite a few of the posters go a bit too far in quashing scripture if it contradicts personal theology. . . I may give it a more thorough try, though. . .

I'm sorry you got banned. Sad  It still seems weird to me that my admittedly controversial opinions are OK with them (I've never been warned even) but yours are anathema.
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2003, 08:01:04 PM »

Yeah, Cross+Flame is a strange spot: extremely liberal.

I often wondered why CBBS did not ban you and Michael777, since both of you posted things that run contrary to the CBBS statement of faith. Frankly, I think you guys slipped under their radar.

You must remember that for many people at CBBS any kind of Catholics are the very devil. Since they could not make us look bad in legitimate debate, they had no choice (in their view) but to chase us off.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 08:02:08 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2003, 08:08:57 PM »

For what it's worth, I asked Michael how he avoided being banned, and he said he knew one of the mods and asked her permission about the trinity thread before starting it.    But there are plenty of threads that run contrary to established teaching -- including ones on universal salvation, whether Christ is necessary for salvation, the acceptability of homosexuality, and tons of others -- if anything, I think the breadth of non-established ideas is getting bigger, as I've lately seen posts from several admitted pagans, wiccans, etc . . .  

My 6th grade teacher told me all (probably) Catholics were going to hell; even then I knew better than to believe him; I just wish there was some way the personal gaps could be bridged, even if the doctrinal ones can't be.  And I, for one, miss the historical and (for lack of a better word) mystical perspectives you folks brought to the board. . .
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2003, 10:00:00 PM »

Personally, I'm kind of relieved to be rid of CBBS.

I once remarked to someone there that there isn't a thimbleful of Christianity at Christianity.com.

I still think I was right.
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2003, 05:34:23 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

Hello. . . someone posted a link to this site so I thought I'd come say hello to those of you I  used to talk to . . . .

Hi Jessica, welcome and thanks for clicking on the link Grin

I think I may have brought about the premature locking of that thread with my response to gracerest9, as my post was not too gracious towards the moderators (it was mostly Winter Crow doing the locking and deleting). I had actually sent a private apology to Fritz some time ago regarding another similiar post of mine. Basically, in my apology I stated that he was well within his rights to choose his friends and act in what he thought were their best interests. I had also promised that if I had any other grievances that I would contact him privately and not post them publically. I think I may have broken that promise with my above mentioned post.

We are a bit of a problem for most Evangelicals because they really have no clue about Orthodoxy. They have been raised on a diet of anti Catholicism and are at a loss when confronted with Orthodoxy. I think we were mostly tolerated when we were on the defensive, merely posting to correct incorrect knowledge and understanding, but it became too much for them when Monkey took it on the offensive with his "Where were the Evangelicals?" thread.

Personally, I find michael777's posts on the trinity potentially far more damaging to fledgling evangelicals because he claims to be somewhat of an authority on the topic, having supposedly studied the issue for 17 years. I find him a bit of an enigma because at times he appears very well read Cool, yet at other times he demonstrates extremely shoddy scholarship Huh. I am also annoyed at his persistance at posting stuff as fact that he has been shown to be clearly incorrect (not necessarily by me. e.g. ELOHIM in Psalm 8:5).

I'm fine with your posts because you don't claim to be an authority even though you believe much the same as michael777 regarding the trinity Cool.

God bless,

John.
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2003, 06:47:46 AM »

Yeah....I agree, they are within their rights; but I wonder why, still. . .
I really enjoy the Orthodox posts, I think because of my interest in early church development (and in some ways my ignorance of it).  As far as the NT and the trinity goes, I think Michael and I have similar conclusions but different reasoning and methodology.  I don't believe that scripture has to be invalidated to make the point, and sometimes I think Michael's insistence that it does hurts his credibility.  But I love having the opportunity to have a civilized and thoughtful discussion on the subject, and on several others that sometimes get strong reactions when you actually discuss them in a church setting.  Anyway, I may look around here a bit and get involved in some of the discussions, since you guys seem to welcome differences of opinion. . . .
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2003, 11:53:20 AM »

Jessica,

Have you read Early Christian Doctrines by JND Kelly?  He traces the development of the Trinity, Incarnation, etc., through history up until about the 800's.  An excellent introduction to the topic.  Also worthy is Chadwick's introduction I believe The Early Church.  Both available at amazon.com

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2003, 01:37:02 PM »

The books are also available fairly cheaply via

www.bookfinder.com
 
Used books! Rah!!!   Sorry, I'll calm down now Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2003, 01:39:46 PM »

I've also found Chadwick very helpful --- quite dense but pithy and concise.  Pelikan's first and second volumes of his History of Christian Doctrine are also good, but pretty hard going, and with some things in there that I doubt he agrees with now (particularly in Vol. 2!) considering he is now Eastern Orthodox.

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2003, 08:59:56 PM »

I like Chadwick's book, too, although I think he missed the mark entirely in his brief account of the Ebionites on page 23. He seems to say that the Ebionites were the legitimate successors of the Church at Jerusalem rather than an heretical sect. In that he was dead wrong.
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2003, 02:38:02 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

I'm fine with your posts because you don't claim to be an authority even though you believe much the same as michael777 regarding the trinity Cool.

Dear Jessica, on rereading my last post I realised that my closing statement would probably not have come across as particulary generous (putting it mildly), but rather condescending.
Please forgive me if I offended you in any way  Sad
I've also inadvertantly given away your name which you may not have appreciated. I seem to be putting my foot in it a lot lately.

John.
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2003, 04:54:44 AM »

No problem. .  . I didn't think you were being condescending, perhaps because you never have been with me Smiley  I freely admit I'm not an expert, just someone who has read some and tried to understand. . . and don't worry about the name over here; I'd rather you didn't drop it on the other board (since there are a few who I'd rather didn't know my gender).  Anyway, don't worry, I'm not in the least offended and I appreciate all the discussions on books.  Do you know if they are written primarily from an Orthodox perspective, or a more secular historical one?  Ideally, I'd sort of like to read one book of each covering the same 1st-4th century material.
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2003, 04:34:49 PM »

As far as I know, Chadwick is not Orthodox. He is an English academic who taught at both Oxford and Cambridge.

He might be an Anglican, but the book seems to have been written from a secular perspective.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2003, 10:33:04 AM »

Hi Jessica ^_^! It seems like you made it to this board as well, it's been awhile lol.

I do honestly miss hearing the Orthodox view on things.. however i do know that if i want to hear it i can always ask questions here.. but if no debate is allowed how will people develop?

I do find it a strange double standard as now there are some who are blatantly challenging the existance of God, i have no problem with that myself. However why would they ban Orthodox Christians from explaining their faith, yet allow people to post challenges like that?

I mean if we are allowed to hear, the methodist answer to the question or the Anglican answer to a question ect.. why is the Catholic and Orthodox answers diallowed (Espcially if one is to admit that these two groups are indeed Christian), in such a case what is the real difference?

It would seem that by the tenets of the site, Orthodox and Catholicism are considered unchristian or anti-christ, however based on recent posts i am not sure such reasoning would hold.. however i would not dare argue it, as they might shut down those who post their beliefs that are against the existance of God as well.

Which would lead to further sensorship.. and less discussion about things which are important in the lives of both Atheists and Theists.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2003, 10:45:15 AM »

Quote
I do find it a strange double standard as now there are some who are blatantly challenging the existance of God, i have no problem with that myself. However why would they ban Orthodox Christians from explaining their faith, yet allow people to post challenges like that?

I don't know the people there, so don't take this as a condemnation of them or a "I know exactly what's going on" type of answer... I only offer this for consideration. Is it possible that some there subconsciously know that the Orthodox and/or Catholics are a threat to them theologically, but will not allow themselves to consider this a possibility in their conscious thinking through of things (since much of what we say clashes with how they have molded reality), and so they see us as a much more personal threat than the atheists/agnostics, whom they most likely see as "fools" (as the Scriptures call them)? Just thinking out loud.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2003, 07:48:25 PM »

Quote
I do find it a strange double standard as now there are some who are blatantly challenging the existance of God, i have no problem with that myself. However why would they ban Orthodox Christians from explaining their faith, yet allow people to post challenges like that?

I don't know the people there, so don't take this as a condemnation of them or a "I know exactly what's going on" type of answer... I only offer this for consideration. Is it possible that some there subconsciously know that the Orthodox and/or Catholics are a threat to them theologically, but will not allow themselves to consider this a possibility in their conscious thinking through of things (since much of what we say clashes with how they have molded reality), and so they see us as a much more personal threat than the atheists/agnostics, whom they most likely see as "fools" (as the Scriptures call them)? Just thinking out loud.

Well, in your "thinking out loud" you have hit the nail right on the head.

Before the crackdown of a couple of months ago, it became readily apparent that the Fundamentalists were unprepared for the arguments presented by both Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

Honestly, I think we were making real headway with some of them, and that scared the rest of them something fierce.

The admins and mods took emergency measures to eliminate the threat: they ran us off the site by all the means at their disposal.
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2003, 03:46:28 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

Guys, you all know how dedicated michael777 is to the truth don't you? Have a look at one of his recent posts in a thread on the trinity. I challange you to find a single accurate statement in this mess of fiction. (I've added a few comments in red)

John 1:1 - is a VERY wonderful scripture. Ok, this is true

First of all,... it never uses the words "JESUS". So you can not. ( Unless you would like to be a workman who is 'not' approved, wrongly dividing the word of truth... ) then go ahead and make more assumptions, additions and theology.

Next, you would have to study EACH word found in this passage, after noticing that 'Jesus' is not used in this verse. Take 'LOGOS' ( word ) for example.

LOGOS is NEVER used as a 'person'. The personal pronouns used in this quotation in greek DO NOT USE THE MASCULINE FORM. The 'WORD' was supposed to be translated as 'IT', not 'HE'!!!!!!
(ahem) every single occurence of LOGOS in this passage is masculine.

Without knowing this very basic rule,... one is left with all sorts of grammatical errors - and the introduction of theology. Turning 'IT' into 'HE' FORCES you to see 'IT' as a person instead.

False Assumptions:

(1) The 'word' must be Jesus, since the pronoun 'HE' in verse 3 and 4 are used. Even though the name 'Jesus' is not mentioned in this verse and 'HE' was supposed to be translated 'IT' to show the correct translation of greek.

(2) Next assumption,... since verse 1 says 'in the beginning', then Jesus MUST have existed before then. ( This is a longer subject,... but for now, you must ask yourself WHEN that beginning was. I can challange you to FIND the FIRST occurence of the Words regarding the need for Jesus Christ. They occur FIRST in Genesis 3:15 and are a direct statement to the devil, not mankind. To assume this points to Genesis 1:1 - would be to ignore all other possibilities. ) Since 'LOGOS' - means the COMMUNICATED thoughts, ideas, concepts etc... then WHEN was Jesus Christ 'SPOKEN' about Huh And finally,... was this 'WORD' around in the beginning... and WHEN was that 'BEGINNING'. You will find that just because you see the word 'beginning' - you immediately have assumptions without doing any study.

(3) Next assumption,... since the Word 'was' God, then Jesus must be God.

VOILA. A few assumptions,... some incorrect grammar and translations - ALL DONE.

It takes some breaking of grammar rules to turn Greek into 'inaccurate' english by turning 'IT' into 'HE', thus introducing the Word as a MALE PERSON. ( no joke ). But this is what happened. 'Bias' has overruled truth in this case.

LOGOS is never referred to as a 'person'.

Next,... STE John 1:1

VEn avrch/| h=n o lo,goj kai. o lo,goj h=n pro.j to.n qeo,n kai. qeo.j h=n o lo,goj

in the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was WITH the God
and [-the] God was the Word.

THEOS ( God ) is a PROPER NOUN. It demans the adjective "THE" ( definite article ) in front of it.
(showing what little knowledge of greek he has. Would you ever say "The John is eating, the Mary is singing."?)

The 1st occurence of 'THE GOD' has the definite article in front.
The 2nd occurence of 'GOD' does NOT have the definite article AT ALL.
The 2nd occurence of 'GOD' is in a different order than English displays.
The 2nd occurence of 'GOD' is not capitolized.
(it is in my greek bible)
The 2nd occurence of 'GOD' turns into an ADJECTIVE by definition.
Again showing what little knowledge of greek he has.

Before translation,... the 2nd occurence would appear "...and the Word was god" forcing it to be an adjective,... NOT a noun.

So what does this 'god' mean ?

AHA! Another assumption can be used, or theology can be pasted here.

Lets interject some 'guesswork' called 'DIVINITY' of Christ.

The word 'DIVINE' comes from 'THEIOS', which means 'GOD-LIKE'. Sadly,... this word IS NOT USED in John 1:1 ( even though theology forces it to exist there, too ).
THEOS in the adjective form relates to 'EL' or 'ELOHIM' - which both myself and others (trinitarians) have repeatedly shown that this word does not 'always' mean God. It can mean 'MIGHTY' - and does in some old testament occurences. If you don't believe me,... just look up 'EL' and 'ELOHIM' and see how it is translated into 'other' words like 'gods', 'angels' etc...
yeah, except that it is not the Hebrew word, it is the greek word, and it only means "God". There isn't a big enough rolleyes-smiley for this one.

An accurate translation

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was mighty. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. In it was life; and the life was the light of men...


Honestly, the first time I read this post, words failed me. I have never, ever seen a non-christian take such liberties with the Word, let alone someone who claims to be a christian. I am thoroughly appalled that the moderators allow him to post this stuff unchallenged. They may as well change their site name to Arianism.com since they seem to give his views so much support.

John.
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2003, 07:30:47 AM »

Christ is Risen !

Scary stuff  Sad

Quote
I am thoroughly appalled that the moderators allow him to post this stuff unchallenged.

But you see, the reason he can get away with this is that he is towing the Protestant line by using Scripture alone  Roll Eyes

Rather than looking to the Church to interpret Scripture (a mortal sin at CBBS) he interprets it through his unbiased/infallible eyes, revealing the truth for all to see ...
[/sarcasm]
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2003, 02:11:04 PM »


For what it's worth, I often agree with Michael's conclusions and I still have no idea what he's talking about half the time -- especially all the elohim stuff!  But as far as the "word" being translated "it," that is a possibility. . . Some of the early English translators, including Wycliffe, translated the gender term as neutral until vs. 13, when "the Word became flesh," at which point the Word is engendered through the Person of Christ.  

But definitely, it seems like the conversation there is sort of just going around without real challenge -- everyone posts his/her interpretation without really engaging with anyone elses' questions.  I guess this is one of the dangers as well as the perks of Protestantism and sola scriptura.  I (as some of you well know) have somewhat little faith in the ability of the historic church to transmit truth uncorrupted -- yet I also admire the order, structure, and committment to doctrinal unity.  I currently attend an Anglican church, and while I enjoy some of the freedom the Anglican church as a whole offers, I believe that it is easy to get lost in it.  I think there is danger both ways -- IMO some Catholics and Orthodox believers get lost in the ritual and tradition and participate without understanding, whereas some Protestants (myself included sometimes) rely so much on our own understanding we forget that the Church must be a body to function, and that wisdom must be passed down at least as often as misinterpretation Smiley Which is why I miss the Orthodox perspective, and the grounding it brought.
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2003, 06:33:20 PM »

I find it ironic that Christianity.com finds Orthodox opinions worth "hosting" for money.  The link between Concilliar Press and Christianity.com is amusing.  Has anyone here informed Concilliar Press regarding the ToS on that website?

I'm oddly curious about this, but it's not really worth putting much effort into.  I might send off an e-mail to marketing@concilliarpress.com, just because I'm too curious for my own good.

BTW, if anyone has done this already... Let me know.

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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2003, 06:52:45 PM »

I think it is pretty apparent that M777 gets his "research" from the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (aka the Jehovah's Witnesses). I once accused him of that, and he never did answer the charge. His claim that he has spent (what was it?) 17 years researching the deity of Christ just doesn't wash. I think that means he has been a JW for 17 years.

As for Wycliffe using the neuter pronoun it instead of the masculine He for the Logos of John 1: well, that is one of the reasons why Wycliffe was a heretic and his Bible translation unreliable.
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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Lavis Knight
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2003, 12:13:05 PM »


For what it's worth, I often agree with Michael's conclusions and I still have no idea what he's talking about half the time -- especially all the elohim stuff!  But as far as the "word" being translated "it," that is a possibility. . . Some of the early English translators, including Wycliffe, translated the gender term as neutral until vs. 13, when "the Word became flesh," at which point the Word is engendered through the Person of Christ.  

But definitely, it seems like the conversation there is sort of just going around without real challenge -- everyone posts his/her interpretation without really engaging with anyone elses' questions.  I guess this is one of the dangers as well as the perks of Protestantism and sola scriptura.  I (as some of you well know) have somewhat little faith in the ability of the historic church to transmit truth uncorrupted -- yet I also admire the order, structure, and committment to doctrinal unity.  I currently attend an Anglican church, and while I enjoy some of the freedom the Anglican church as a whole offers, I believe that it is easy to get lost in it.  I think there is danger both ways -- IMO some Catholics and Orthodox believers get lost in the ritual and tradition and participate without understanding, whereas some Protestants (myself included sometimes) rely so much on our own understanding we forget that the Church must be a body to function, and that wisdom must be passed down at least as often as misinterpretation Smiley Which is why I miss the Orthodox perspective, and the grounding it brought.  



What i wonder about this though, is such interpretations often come over a thousand years after the text was written, what then can we call it? Progressive revelation? That God did not reveal everything there was to reveal to us through Christ?

I can understand progressive revelation on physical matters such as the cosmos and universe as a Characteristic of all things physical is change. However we know that things which are metaphysical  do not share the same properties.



« Last Edit: May 22, 2003, 12:14:44 PM by Lavis Knight » Logged

If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be... then how will anyone find light?

The strongest and purest statement of faith i have ever heard was simply: "I love you God"
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