Author Topic: Lies Vs. Deceptions  (Read 1978 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Lies Vs. Deceptions
« on: May 19, 2007, 02:27:11 AM »

 Hi All,

 I've always been curious about the concept of lies and lying.  No one likes being lied to. In fact we down right hate it. And there's almost no better way to destroy trust than to tell a lie. Lies can and do ruin careers, relationships, and lives. But...it seems a lie can also save lives as well, such as the German families who hid Jews and lied to the Gestapo about it. So, it seems that not all lies are necessarily bad per se. In fact, and I don't remember where I read this, but some Saints counseled their spiritual children to lie IF it would help the recipients salvation.
 A few weeks ago I heard someone say that lying isn't always bad; it's when you deceive someone that it becomes wrong. He went on to describe a deception as when you knowingly try to hurt someone with an untruth such as slander etc etc.
 I realize that there are all sorts of ethical and moral implications about trying to decide 'when' and 'should I'? Have any of you ever faced this type of dilemma before? Have you ever had this discussion with your priest?
 And when are your pants truly on fire: when you tell a white lie or a big fat lie? ;D Just a little humor injection....

 Gabriel
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2007, 04:36:05 AM »
I don't believe lying is bad at all, even when it's malicious in nature it's merely a symptom of a sin, not a sin itself. The sin is hatred of one's neighbour or pride or vainglory...we don't tell malicious lies just for the fun of it, and if we do we probably have deeper psychological problems making these lies merely a symptom of the illness.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline falafel333

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 337
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2007, 09:36:43 AM »
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2007, 09:11:40 PM »
 Hey Felafel,

 Thanks for the Biblical reminder. Although I appreciate the quote, I still believe that there can be extenuating circumstances that require one to lie, such as the example I gave about Nazi Germany. Yes it's correct that had I told the German soldiers no, I hadn't seen any Jews, I would be telling the truth. But shouldn't I also share in the guilt of their murders that were to follow? Do you really suppose God ignores the details?
 And even though there are many Biblical injunctions about not lying, as important as the Bible is, it must be remembered that it is only a part of Holy Tradion. Afterall, it's the Holy Tradition that brought us the Bible and it's Holy Tradition that should be our guide and yardstick on all matters, right?
 I apologize for coming off as argumentative :)

 
I don't believe lying is bad at all, even when it's malicious in nature it's merely a symptom of a sin, not a sin itself. The sin is hatred of one's neighbour or pride or vainglory...we don't tell malicious lies just for the fun of it, and if we do we probably have deeper psychological problems making these lies merely a symptom of the illness.
I believe a malicious lie is wrong and a sin. If H'amartia (sin) means to miss the mark or stray from the path (doing God's will), then telling a malicious lie fits into this category. You're correct in diagnosing it as a symptom, yet it is still wrong. A fever is a symptom of the flu but it's still painful. ;D

 Gabriel
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,548
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2007, 09:23:00 PM »
Someone once shared that St. Augustine actually taught that lying for the sake of good is okay, such as lying to a bunch of murderers so that a murder can be avoided.  I don't know where St. Augustine said this, but he reminded us of the harlot Rahab that saved the Israeli spies in Jericho.

God bless.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Bono Vox

  • The Orthodox Bagpiper
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,620
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 01:10:10 AM »
Quote
I don't believe lying is bad at all, even when it's malicious in nature it's merely a symptom of a sin, not a sin itself. The sin is hatred of one's neighbour or pride or vainglory...we don't tell malicious lies just for the fun of it, and if we do we probably have deeper psychological problems making these lies merely a symptom of the illness.

Why am I not suprised??
Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!

Offline Nacho

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,482
  • The face of Corporate America
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2007, 01:49:23 AM »
Quote
Why am I not suprised??

LOL...... ;D
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Bono Vox

  • The Orthodox Bagpiper
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,620
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 02:09:04 AM »
Hey Jibrail,

What's up with the name?? Are you from the middle east or something??
Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 01:29:37 PM »
Mr. Bagpiper,

 Why does my ethnicity trouble you ;)
 The answer to your second query is (in Arabic) "La, habibi"; (in Romanian) 'Nu, prietenul meu"; (in English) "No, my friend." I'm from the good 'ol US of A by way of Scotland then Ireland then through the American South and finally the Ozarks (which, to those of y'all who don't know, is where the South meets the Midwest).
 The answer to your first query goes a little somethin' like this- Jibrail Almuhajir is my OC.net psuedonym. When I found this forum, I noticed almost everyone has a psuedonym, so I thought "When in Rome...". I presume your last name isn't really Bagpiper?  ??? ;DYou are perceptive in guessing Middle Eastern because it is an Arabic translation/rendition of Gabriel the Immigrant. 'Gabriel' because that is the name in which I was baptized/chrismated into the Holy Orthodox Church with (after the ArchAngel Gabriel). 'Almuhajir' because it just sounds cool! I chose 'the immigrant' for the introspective/esoteric description in which I consider us all 'immigrants' in that Heaven is our true home.
 My given name is Christian but, as my grandaddy used to say, "You can call me what you want, just don't call me late to dinner"  :D 
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,429
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 03:12:16 PM »
One has to question why Christ didn't reveal to us the time and hour of the second coming. Was he holding back, didn't know or did he lie?
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2007, 12:46:37 AM »
One has to question why Christ didn't reveal to us the time and hour of the second coming. Was he holding back, didn't know or did he lie?
In their commentary on Mark 14:32, Sts. Basil, Athanasios, and Hilary say,
 "The words of Mark, when compared to Matthew (24:36) appear distinctly to exclude the Son from knowledge. My opinion is this: No man knows, neither the angels of God; no yet the Son would have known unless the Father had known; that is, the cause of the Son's knowing come from the Father. To a fair hearer there is no violence in this interpretation, because the word 'only' is not added as it is in Matthew. Mark's sense, then, is as follows: of that day and of that hour no man knows, nor the angels of God; but even the Son would not have known if the Father had not known, for the knowledge naturally which is His was given by the Father." St. Basil ['Letter CCXXVI, To Amphilochios', in Nicene, 2nd Ser., VIII:277.]
 "Of that day or that hour no one knows, not even He himself- that is, when iewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives withing the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos Who is to come, to judge, to be Bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come....Viewed according to His divinity, He knows and there is nothing which He does not know." St Athanasios [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII (46), Nicene, 2nd Ser., IV:419.]
 "Is it credible that He, Who stands to all things as the Author of their present and future, should not know all things?...It is not because of the infirmity of ignorance that He does not know, but because it is not yet the time to speak, or in the divine plan to act....His ignorance is rather economy." St. Hilary [On the Trinity, Bk. IX, pp 58-62, in Nicene, IX:175-177.]
 -all quotes taken from the Evangelistarion Volume 1, The Orthodox New Testament, published by Holy Apostles Convent and Dormition Skete, Buena Vista, Colorado, pp 203, 204...notes 126, 127, and 128.

 Hope this helps Demetrios G....
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2007, 12:59:24 AM »
 
 My apologies for the slopiness of that last post. I should have spaced those quotes a bit for easier reading :'(
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline Mo the Ethio

  • Proud Capitalist
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 453
Re: Lies Vs. Deceptions
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2007, 09:17:57 AM »


 ........ (which, to those of y'all who don't know, is where the South meets the Midwest).
 

   Otherwise known as Ohio.
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)