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Author Topic: Metropolitan Anthony on "Life beyond the Grave and Eternal Suffering"  (Read 12119 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2007, 02:17:18 AM »

Evil is created by the created. If evil will not exist when heaven and earth are renewed. The inventor will not exist. Both man and devil are created beings. Both can harbor evil. Created has a begining. So it can have an end. The only one without begining is God. For evil to not exist created has to die. If created dies evil will also not exist. When you say created will exist forever than evil will exist forever. Even if it is contained it will still exist. But we are told that evil will not exist.
You've missed the whole point. Nothing is evil by nature. Evil has no independant existence. Evil is parasitic. It requires the distortion of the created nature and logoi of things, which, in themselves, are inherently good. Sinners and demons can't "be" evil, they can only "do" evil, and in the end, they will no longer be able to do any evil. There is nothing more foolish than sin because a sinner is in love with something that doesn't exist. The demons and the damned are in torment because they continue to love what doesn't exist over the only Being Who has independant Existence.
God is "I AM", Creation is "I am because God Wills that I am", evil is simply "not".
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« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2007, 02:31:23 AM »

You've missed the whole point. Nothing is evil by nature. Evil has no independant existence. Evil is parasitic. It requires the distortion of the created nature and logoi of things, which, in themselves, are inherently good. Sinners and demons can't "be" evil, they can only "do" evil, and in the end, they will no longer be able to do any evil. There is nothing more foolish than sin because a sinner is in love with something that doesn't exist. The demons and the damned are in torment because they continue to love what doesn't exist over the only Being Who has independant Existence.
God is "I AM", Creation is "I am because God Wills that I am", evil is simply "not".
In the great Eschaton, evil will not exist (for it never existed), but evil people will continue to exist.  In linguistic terms, evil is not a noun; it is an adjective.  It is a way of describing those who have been perverted and deformed by their separation from God.
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« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2007, 02:35:07 AM »

evil people will continue to exist.
There are no evil people; there are only sinners, and I am one of them.
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« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2007, 02:57:39 AM »

Yep, that's right. The General Resurrection. I already knew about that, but thanks. Wink

Just so we're clear that salvation and damnation are corporate, not individual, acts. All are damned or all are saved, there's no middle ground. Wink

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It just doesn't work with salvation. Salvation cannot be a natural attribute of the human person since salvation requires an act of will. Your "logical" answer to the question "What must I do to be saved?" is "Nothing". But neither Christ nor the Apostles ever answered the question thus. Why call us to repentance if it makes no difference? Why Command us to Love God and our neighbour if it makes no difference? Why not cause a nuclear holocaust which will destroy the entire planet so that our wonderful and inevitable universal salvation comes quicker?

I would argue that the hottest places in hell (though not eternal, of course Grin) are reserved for those who do what is mistaken for good out of self interest. You should know that we dont love our neighbour or serve God because we fear hell, we do it only out of love of God...should we not act the same way even if damnation was inevitable? You seem to be even more supportive of Nietzschean philosophies than myself. Wink

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Looks like you failed Ontology 301. I think you better read him again. He says that God belongs neither to the category of existing nor non-existing things. And he's right. How can the Source of Being have the same type of existence as the things which receive their being from Him?

You sure about that,

'Wherefore, also, the Beautiful is identical with the Good, because all things aspire to the Beautiful and Good, on every account, and there is no existing thing which does not participate in the Beautiful and the Good. Yea, reason will dare to say even this, that even the non-existing participates in the Beautiful and Good. For then even it is beautiful and good, when in God it is celebrated superessentially to the exclusion of all. This, the one Good and Beautiful, is uniquely Cause of all the many things beautiful and good.'

God is the Author of all that is and of all that is not. He is the creator of the existant and non-existant. Good and Evil both come from the Divine.

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OR the same God Who willed their continued existence as persons, continues to will it.

To will existance for the purpose of torment? Knowing full well that salvation will never come? That is not the act of a God of Mercy, that is the act of a sadist.

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But my dear GiC, if God abhors evil, why would He, as you claim, create it? Surely you're not going to contradict yourself? I prefer St. Maximos the Confessor's understanding, that what God has created can never be evil in it's original nature, not even the demons. The logoi of all created things, including the demons, are inherently good. One of the signs of theosis is the ability to see the logoi in all created things, but what you are saying is that the logoi in certain created things are inherently evil. This means that the Logos Himself must contain some evil (which is clearly ridiculous). So you see, the problem doesnt exist.

If God is not the Author of Non-Existance, that is to say of Evil, than Non-Existance is self-emanating and co-eternal with the trinity, you have just created a god of evil (albeit not a personal god, but a god nonetheless) to stand in an eternal struggle and battle against the god of good. What you are suggesting, my friend, is ditheism, and not just any ditheism but specifically gnosticism.

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The soul can be utterly destroyed and annihilated. It's not as if a God Who can created a Universe ex nihilo has to follow the laws of thermodynamics. He "Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were" can stop willing our soul's existence, but He doesn't. You may be well learned, but don't tell the Almighty what He can and can't do.  Wink

To stop existance is merely to return the existant to non-existance, which is encompassed by the Divine, it would be to return humanity whence it came, it would be an apokatastasis, albeit of a different sort than I have been advocating, it would be an apokatastasis as envisioned by Plotinus, where the bodies, and names, and numbers are all destroyed in the final restoration, the end being as the beginning.

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All that you and the other Oreginists have done, GiC is create two possible logical solutions to a problem which doesn't even exit.

Ah, but the problem does exist, the eternal existance Death means that Christ's sacrifice was without effect, Death was not conquered, the salvific power of the Cross was thwarted, Christ may have won a battle, but he lost the war. In the end, Death becomes eternal, it is life that is vanquished by Death.
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« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2007, 03:23:50 AM »

If God is not the Author of Non-Existance, that is to say of Evil, than Non-Existance is self-emanating and co-eternal with the trinity,

<HEAVY SIGH>

You're the one who thinks non-existence is a form of existence (along with some modern schools of Taoism).
"Nothing" is not "Something" (despite what the Tao of Pooh says!)
Non-existence is non-existent. It doesn't exist. It has no being. It is not.
How can that which is not possibly "be" co-eternal with what Is? It cant "be" anything!
How many times to I have to say it? Evil is parasitic, it doesn't "live" on it's own. It is a distortion of what is inherently good in Creation. The only possibly way that evil can be "Eternal" is if Creation is Eternal, because evil requires Creation. And unless I'm mistaken, Creation is not Eternal, it has a beginning.

If you think non-existence has a form of existence, I'm afraid that's your problem, and you have to solve it yourself. Don't try and make it other people's problem. Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2007, 03:46:25 AM »

<HEAVY SIGH>

You're the one who thinks non-existence is a form of existence (along with some modern schools of Taoism).
"Nothing" is not "Something" (despite what the Tao of Pooh says!)
Non-existence is non-existent. It doesn't exist. It has no being. It is not.
How can that which is not possibly "be" co-eternal with what Is? It cant "be" anything!
How many times to I have to say it? Evil is parasitic, it doesn't "live" on it's own.

Ok, let me try to make this as clear as possible, not that that's an easy thing to do.

Non-Existance is not Existance, per se, but it is a universal category, it does eminate from the Divine, the One is the cause of Non-Existance as surely as He is the cause of Existance...for this reason thus in an ordinary sense it can be said to exist as a universal category, even if technically speaking it, of course, does not 'exist' in and of itself. It may not 'be' or 'have being' in the strict sense of the term, but it is (if our language had a non-existant equivalent to the verb 'to be' I'd use it, but lacking this linguistic convention we will simply have to interpret the verb, when used to refer to the non-existant as 'to non-be', meaning something very different than the negation 'to not be') a universal category and it is as much as part of the divine as existance and is as dependent on the divine as existance. Non-existance is not separate from the Divine: where existance is not to be found, God is still to be found. The universal category of Non-Existance certainly exists and the contents of this universal category emanate from the Divine.

Perhaps you can still find parts of my explination to play word games with, relying on the inherent limitations of our language. But the distinction between 'non-existance' (which, of course, by definitn does not exist) and the universal category of non-existance (which by virtue of being able to discuss non-existance in distinction to existance, does exist) should, at least, make my explanation a bit more linguistically correct.

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It is a distortion of what is inherently good in Creation. The only possibly way that evil can be "Eternal" is if Creation is Eternal, because evil requires Creation. And unless I'm mistaken, Creation is not Eternal, it has a beginning.

In a sense, this is true, but in another sense Creation has always existed in the Divine Mind, which is the ultimate reality, so in this sense Creation is Eternal.

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If you think non-existence has a form of existence, I'm afraid that's your problem, and you have to solve it yourself. Don't try and make it other people's problem. Smiley

Well, using my now improved linguistic conventions let me rephrase myself: non-existence is a universal category just as existance is.
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« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2007, 04:32:07 AM »

Non-Existance is not Existance, per se, but it is a universal category, it does eminate from the Divine, the One is the cause of Non-Existance as surely as He is the cause of Existance...
Prove it.
Prove that God created, begot or is the source of non-existence.

God IS. Period.
He does not merely "cause" existence, He IS existence. He is "Ο ΩΝ". He is "Yod Heh Wav Heh"- "I AM WHO AM".
He does not exist in a vacuum. There are no empty spaces between the God Who "is everywhere present and fillest all things" and whatever "universal category" you can think of.  There is nowhere that God is not, and if God "fills" non-existence, then it isn't non-existence. There is no such place or state of being as "nowhere" or "never".  There is only Time, Space and Eternity, that is to say, there is only "sometime", "someplace", "Everywhere" and "Everywhen".
That God is Being does not "cause" "non-being". Neither does the fact that He calls things into Being "create" non-being. The existence of apples does not "cause" the existence of "non-apples". "Non-apples" are everything that exists that isn't an apple. If apples don't exist, nothing has changed about "non-apples" except the fact that they would not be known as "non-apples". If something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist- it isn't a "non-apple".
Call it what you will, but "non-existence" is simply an abstract concept, it is nothing....literally. Non-existence isn't anything it just isn't. So stop thinking about is as though it is a thing.Wink
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« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2007, 10:06:44 AM »

Created and uncreated have nothing in common. One doesn't have to rely on matter to sustain it. Creation is seperate from uncreated.
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2007, 10:17:09 AM »

Created and uncreated have nothing in common. One doesn't have to rely on matter to sustain it. Creation is seperate from uncreated.
Please tell me that this isn't an attempt to deny the fact that evil is parasitic and has no independent existence.
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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2007, 01:03:19 PM »

Please tell me that this isn't an attempt to deny the fact that evil is parasitic and has no independent existence.

When creation partakes of god it is linked to the energies of god only. If we were linked to the essence evil would exist forever. Evil is independent because of this. If it wasn't than all of creation would be linked to god. Evil would exist forever. That would make GIC and yourself correct. That is why evil has an end. Because it is within creation. When Adam was removed from the eternal source. He fell into death. The devil also did the same. He Is refered to as the Evil one. If he will exist than evil will exist forever. But God secured his grace. He did so because for this very reason. That is why created that is evil has to die. It has chosen death over life.
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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2007, 08:05:33 PM »

Prove it.
Prove that God created, begot or is the source of non-existence.

Well, I've already presented the scriptural verses and a relevant citation from Dionysius. I could find a few more patristic quotes, I'm sure, but you asked for a proof, so I shall try to formalize the proof and present it as such:

Definitions:
Let the set A = {x: x exists}
B = Ac = U - A = {x: x does not exist}
(Essentially, this says that everything either exists or does not exist within our system, other possibilities are still open by creating another set paring this universe (U) with another set, thus creating a new, larger, universe in which this universe is contained)

At this point we need to define another set, let's call it set G for God. There are a few possibilities for Set G:
(1) G = {} (There is no God)
(2) G is contained in U (The Universe is larger than God, it encompasses elements beyond God)
(3) G = U (God and the Universe are one and the same)
(4) U is contained in G (God is larger than the Universe, He encompasses elements beyond the Universe)
(5) G ≠ {}, G intersect U = {} (God is completely independent of the Universe)
(6) G intersect U is contained in but not equal to G,U (God and the Universe have some points in common)

In case (2) redefine U = G (shrink the universe so it is not beyond God, it's a simple reduction in order to decrease complexity, the new universe is still contained in the old universe and the new universe is still made up of at least part of A and Ac which are defined the same way, only the scope of the Universe (which is relative anyway) changes). Case (1) is a trivial example of of (2) (for case (1) see Proof parts I and II as they are trivially both true).

Cases (3) and (4) are comprable insofar as they do not necessate the reevaluating of our Universe, as all of it is contained by God.

In case (6), only consider the part of the universe which has something in common with God, thus let our new U = G union (old) U. Case (5) is a trivial example of case (6) where U = {} (this is logically equivalent to case (1), thus making the same proof apply).

Proof Part I:
First let's basically assume that the Universe consists merely of that which is existant. (This seems to be what you have been arguing)

If A = U then Ac = {} since Uc = {} by definition
But by the Axiom of the Empty Set, {} is contained in U
Therefore, if A = U, B is contained in A.

Thus, if everything is existant then non-existance is also existant (as the compliment of any set always exists, even if it is the empty set). That is to say that in this case the category of Non-Existance is actually an element of the category of Existance, and no different from anything else that exists.

Proof Part II:
Next let's assume that the Universe consists merely of that which is non-existant.

If A = {},  then Ac = U since {}c = U by definition
But by the Axiom of the Empty Set {} is contained in U
Therefore, if A = {}, A is contained in B.

This second trivial result is not substantially different from the first. The difference is simply that everything, including existance, is non-existant. Still, everything ends up in the same universal category, non-existance in this instance, and thus existance and non-existance are essentially the same.

Proof Part III:
We will make the last possible assumption that neither A nor B are not trivial, and thus that the universe encompsses more than simple existance, it also includes non-existance as distinct from existance, being more complex this situation will actually require our introduction of the set G as defined above since A and B cannot in this case be represented in terms of each other. (This is the possibility I have been arguing).

If A ≠ U and A ≠ {} then A is non-trivial and contained in U (by definition of U being the universe, U cannot be contained in A), so also B = Ac is non-trivial and is contained in U. By definition of U, being dependent on G, U is contained in G (G may or may not be contained in U, but if it is the two sets are equal). Therefore A and B are both contained in G.

Thus Existance and Non-Existance are contained in God, for any God equal to or greater than the Universe.

Q.E.D.

Whew...I must say I do miss math class, I always loved proofs and simply dont get to spend enough time with them anymore. I could probably improve this proof if I worked on it some more, but I would certainly say that this is a good start and the process of developing it was most educational (I dont think I'd done a proof in set theory since my undergraduate, and I think this is the first time I ever applied set theory to metaphysics). I look forward to your response which might afford me the opportunity to improve and strengthen my proof.

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God IS. Period.
He does not merely "cause" existence, He IS existence. He is "Ο ΩΝ". He is "Yod Heh Wav Heh"- "I AM WHO AM".
He does not exist in a vacuum. There are no empty spaces between the God Who "is everywhere present and fillest all things" and whatever "universal category" you can think of.  There is nowhere that God is not, and if God "fills" non-existence, then it isn't non-existence. There is no such place or state of being as "nowhere" or "never".  There is only Time, Space and Eternity, that is to say, there is only "sometime", "someplace", "Everywhere" and "Everywhen".
That God is Being does not "cause" "non-being". Neither does the fact that He calls things into Being "create" non-being. The existence of apples does not "cause" the existence of "non-apples". "Non-apples" are everything that exists that isn't an apple. If apples don't exist, nothing has changed about "non-apples" except the fact that they would not be known as "non-apples". If something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist- it isn't a "non-apple".
Call it what you will, but "non-existence" is simply an abstract concept, it is nothing....literally. Non-existence isn't anything it just isn't. So stop thinking about is as though it is a thing.Wink

This isn't what you were saying:

Looks like you failed Ontology 301. I think you better read him again. He says that God belongs neither to the category of existing nor non-existing things. And he's right. How can the Source of Being have the same type of existence as the things which receive their being from Him?

So which is it? Is God being, or is he beyond both being and non-being?
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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2007, 08:32:50 PM »

You need to work on your proof a little. Or at least explain:
1) How a Being Who is Spirit can be "larger" or "smaller" than the Universe.
2) How anything can be larger than something infinite,
3) How anything can be larger or smaller than something that doesn't occupy physical space
While you're at it, perhaps you can calculate how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin. Cheesy

So which is it? Is God being, or is he beyond both being and non-being?
Exactly what I said, it's both. God is Being, but He is beyond what we know as either Being or Non-being, because He is the Source of Being. Nothing can possibly exist the way that God Exists. He is beyond "existence", and because He is beyond existence and is Uncreated, uncircumscribable, Omnipresent, without beginning or End, He cannot possibly not-exist, nor can there be anywhere or anytime that He is not. Therefore He is beyond non-existence.
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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2007, 08:45:33 PM »

Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get muddy, but only the pig has fun.  Cheesy
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2007, 09:18:29 PM »

Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get muddy, but only the pig has fun.  Cheesy
Thank God I'm a country boy!
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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2007, 09:28:11 PM »

You need to work on your proof a little. Or at least explain:
1) How a Being Who is Spirit can be "larger" or "smaller" than the Universe.

Those words were simply to help illustrate the points, if it would help I could remove the illustrations and just keep the set theory. Those desriptions have nothing to do with the proof proper, they're just to help people follow along.

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2) How anything can be larger than something infinite,

Quite easily, the set of natural numbers and the set of real numbers are both infinite, but the latter is larger than the former (the former has cardinality Aleph-0, the latter has cardinality Aleph-1).

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3) How anything can be larger or smaller than something that doesn't occupy physical space

The words are simply metaphors, don't take them literally, criticize the proof not the commentary.

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While you're at it, perhaps you can calculate how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin. Cheesy

That's no fun, it's already been done, the answer is all of them and none of them.

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Exactly what I said, it's both. God is Being, but He is beyond what we know as either Being or Non-being, because He is the Source of Being. Nothing can possibly exist the way that God Exists. He is beyond "existence", and because He is beyond existence and is Uncreated, uncircumscribable, Omnipresent, without beginning or End, He cannot possibly not-exist, nor can there be anywhere or anytime that He is not. Therefore He is beyond non-existence.

Yes, he is beyond non-existance as he is beyond existance. But in him both are contained...see my proof. Wink

Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get muddy, but only the pig has fun.  Cheesy

And boy was it fun. Grin
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« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2007, 10:18:59 PM »

The words are simply metaphors, don't take them literally, criticize the proof not the commentary.
OK. You have done no more than express and expound on St. Anselm's Ontological Argument mathematically. And it falls down for the same reasons that St. Anselm's argument falls down-

1) because it is based on the premise that requires the inclusion of non-existence among the set of existent things.  This is what I've been saying all along. You can't include non-existence among existent things. Yet your "proof" (like St. Anselm's) requires this as a premise, and

2) despite the conclusion both yourself and St. Anselm reach, the method you both use to come to it equates God's Existence with the existence of a chair or a horse. In other words, the method requires that God's Existence is not "beyond existence".

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« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2007, 10:25:16 PM »

If A = {},  then Ac = U since {}c = U by definition
But by the Axiom of the Empty Set {} is contained in U
Therefore, if A = {}, A is contained in B.

How can A be contained in B if B isn't listed in the equation?
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« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2007, 10:40:25 PM »

If A = {},  then Ac = U since {}c = U by definition
But by the Axiom of the Empty Set {} is contained in U
Therefore, if A = {}, A is contained in B.

How can A be contained in B if B isn't listed in the equation?

Because Ac is in the equation and B has already been defined as Ac. I just skipped that trivial step in the proof.
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« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2007, 10:53:51 PM »

Because Ac is in the equation and B has already been defined as Ac. I just skipped that trivial step in the proof.

 If A = {} than A is non existant, therefore can not be equated against anything unless it can be defined as being existant. Witch you have not yet bin able to displayed.
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« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2007, 11:04:43 PM »

If A = {} than A is non existant,
Don't both of you first have to prove that non-existence is equal to the empty set?
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« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2007, 11:15:04 PM »

OK. You have done no more than express and expound on St. Anselm's Ontological Argument mathematically. And it falls down for the same reasons that St. Anselm's argument falls down-

My argument doesn't even address the same issue as Anselm, and is even true for the trivial case in which God does not exist. I certainly did not argue the existance of God, I simply argued that existance and non-existance are contained in God for some God which contains the Universe. In hind sight I believe that my use of the absolute complement is causing some confusion which I only choose for metaphysical reasons, giving little to the proof. I think I may try to revise it using relative complements which would state that existance and non-existance (defined relative to the set G) are contained in G.

Quote
1) because it is based on the premise that requires the inclusion of non-existence among the set of existent things.  This is what I've been saying all along. You can't include non-existence among existent things. Yet your "proof" (like St. Anselm's) requires this as a premise, and

It simply requires the ability to take a complement of a set, which is always possible. The mere fact that non-existance can be defined in distinction to existance lends itself to this method. No assumption really needs be made other than that non-existance is that which doesn't exist, hardly something that makes me go out on a limb.

Quote
2) despite the conclusion both yourself and St. Anselm reach, the method you both use to come to it equates God's Existence with the existence of a chair or a horse. In other words, the method requires that God's Existence is not "beyond existence".

That God's 'existance' is beyond existance was actually a premise of my argument, but by changing my absolute complements to relative complements I can probably eliminate the need to make any formal statement about the relation between existance (or non-existance) and God's existance.
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« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2007, 11:19:07 PM »

If A = {} than A is non existant, therefore can not be equated against anything unless it can be defined as being existant. Witch you have not yet bin able to displayed.

Not at all, it follows from the axioms of set theory that {}c = U. I dont have to prove that the set is somehow existant to take the complement of it.

Don't both of you first have to prove that non-existence is equal to the empty set?

I never made that assumption in my proof, though the possibility was considered.
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2007, 08:42:01 AM »

Don't both of you first have to prove that non-existence is equal to the empty set?

That's exactly what I have asked GIC above.

Unless it can somehow be proven that non-existance is existance than the calculation is flawed or at the very least incomplete.
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2007, 09:14:44 AM »

Please tell me that this isn't an attempt to deny the fact that evil is parasitic and has no independent existence.
When you say that evil has no independent existance. Your making GIC correct. Because of your claim that all will exist except for evil you are in effect saying that all will be restored.
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2007, 09:21:56 AM »

When you say that evil has no independent existance. Your making GIC correct. Because of your claim that all will exist except for evil you are in effect saying that all will be restored.
Why does the fact that evil has no independent existence make GiC correct?
A wave has no independent existence from the sea, and even if the wave is unable to form, the sea still remains the sea.
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2007, 09:32:07 AM »

A wave can't form is there is no wind.
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2007, 09:36:17 AM »

A wave can't form is there is no wind.
Well, actually they can (tsunamis), but lets assume that they can't; then what you're saying is that waves have no indepentent existence from the wind either. They have no independent existence period. Thanks for agreeing. Wink
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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2007, 09:41:01 AM »

Well, actually they can (tsunamis), but lets assume that they can't; then what you're saying is that waves have no indepentent existence from the wind either. They have no independent existence period. Thanks for agreeing. Wink
Well, if there is no wind (evil) than a wave can never form. That would mean that the see will remain calm as in a whole body.
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« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2007, 09:45:48 AM »

Well, if there is no wind (evil) than a wave can never form. That would mean that the see will remain calm as in a whole body.
That's if you assume that evil has an indepenent existence (like the air). I'm saying that evil has no independent existence (like waves) and only arises when the individual allows the passions to control them (like the sea allowing the wind to control it).
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« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2007, 09:53:20 AM »

That's if you assume that evil has an indepenent existence (like the air). I'm saying that evil has no independent existence (like waves) and only arises when the individual allows the passions to control them (like the sea allowing the wind to control it).

Now you are agreeing with me. If evil has no independant existance. Than evil exists within creation. So if evil will not exist. The creation that harbors evil will also not exist.
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« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2007, 09:55:53 AM »

Now you are agreeing with me. If evil has no independant existance. Than evil exists within creation. So if evil will not exist. The creation that harbors evil will also not exist.

If there are no waves on the sea, does the sea stop existing?

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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2007, 10:14:33 AM »

If there are no waves on the sea, does the sea stop existing?



No. But if there is no evil than the sea stays calm. So the sea will not be evil any more.
A better example would be.
Can a cat that has bin spaded have children?
Can a storm that has no water produce rain ?
Can a car with no gas run?
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2007, 10:25:39 AM »

So we're back to square one, aren't we? You say that evil has an independent existence, and I say that it doesn't. We don't agree at all. That was my point.

If, as you say, evil has an independent existence, then could you answer these three questions:
A) Evil must either be created or uncreated, so which one is it?
B) If it is uncreated, how then can it end?
C) If it is created, then there must have been a time when it didn't exist, so who created it? Who called evil into being from non-being? Who called evil into existence from non-existence?
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« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2007, 10:44:46 AM »

So we're back to square one, aren't we? You say that evil has an independent existence, and I say that it doesn't. We don't agree at all. That was my point.

If, as you say, evil has an independent existence, then could you answer these three questions:
A) Evil must either be created or uncreated, so which one is it?
B) If it is uncreated, how then can it end?
C) If it is created, then there must have been a time when it didn't exist, so who created it? Who called evil into being from non-being? Who called evil into existence from non-existence?

A) Created
B) It's not uncreated
C) Created beings created it. It is a distortion of good. When excepted it becomes embeded into creation. That is why it can't exist forever and must die in order to not allow it to exist. But if it does continue to exist when the earth and heavens are renewed, that would make it immortal. The only immortal is god. If it exists in created it can die and will die. It will go into non-existance.
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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2007, 10:49:26 AM »

That's exactly what I have asked GIC above.

Unless it can somehow be proven that non-existance is existance than the calculation is flawed or at the very least incomplete.

But that's not what I assumed in my definition of non-existence, I assumed that non-existence is the complement of existence. That is to say, I assumed that non-existence was that which does not exist. This may or may not be restricted to the empty set, but while these trivial cases were of course covered in the proof (what proof would be complete without considering the trivial cases?) this was by no means assumed. Read the proof again, you will see that not only was B = A not assumed, unless U intersect G = {} (in which case the intersection of the universe and the divine only amounts to the empty set), B != A.
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2007, 10:51:34 AM »

I was reading through the proof and found mistake, perhaps this has been the source of some confusion.

In case (6), only consider the part of the universe which has something in common with God, thus let our new U = G union (old) U.

should read

In case (6), only consider the part of the universe which has something in common with God, thus let our new U = G intersection (old) U.
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2007, 10:56:43 AM »

C) Created beings created it. It is a distortion of good. When excepted it becomes embeded into creation. That is why it can't exist forever and must die in order to not allow it to exist. But if it does continue to exist when the earth and heavens are renewed, that would make it immortal. The only immortal is god. If it exists in created it can die and will die. It will go into non-existance.

If evil is a distortion of what is good, then how does it have independent existence? Doesn't evil therefore require the existence of good? How then does it have it's own existence independent of anything else?

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« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2007, 11:36:30 AM »

If evil is a distortion of what is good, then how does it have independent existence? Doesn't evil therefore require the existence of good? How then does it have it's own existence independent of anything else?


The created figure that created evil gave life to it. Once it has bin created it can't go away. It is a choice to keep it in existance. Now god insured that evil shouldn't exist. The only way it is possible is one of two ways. If it is forcefully taken away from the created or if the created figure goes into non-existance. But we know that god gave us free will. If we choose to allow evil to exist, we will not exist.
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« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2007, 11:54:02 AM »

But that's not what I assumed in my definition of non-existence
Yes you did:
(1) G = {} (There is no God)

For any set A, the empty set is a subset of A, so of course, if you assume that the empty set is the set of "non existent things" you come to the conclusion that non-existence is among the existent things since the empty set is a subset of the set of existant things.

And yes, a set with no elements is still a set, it is still something, it is not nothing. A bag can be empty, but the bag still exists.

But one major problem with equating non-existence with the empty set is the empty product. The product of the elements of the empty set always equals 1. Zero raised to the zeroth power equals 1.
Therefore, if the empty set is the set of non-existent things, when you multiply these non-existent things together you end up with a product which is neither a subset of the empty set nor an element of it. It is a "non-non-existent" thing, i.e. it exists....Look at that!  I've just conjured up existence out of non-existence. And all this time I thought that only God could call things into being ex nihilo.... Wink

Perhaps where you are going wrong in your logic is that you equate "null" with "nihilo"....just a suggestion....
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« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2007, 11:55:47 AM »

The created figure that created evil gave life to it. Once it has bin created it can't go away. It is a choice to keep it in existance. Now god insured that evil shouldn't exist. The only way it is possible is one of two ways. If it is forcefully taken away from the created or if the created figure goes into non-existance. But we know that god gave us free will. If we choose to allow evil to exist, we will not exist.

Only God the Creator can create that which does not exist. Only God the Lifegiver can give life.
Congratulations. You've just made Man into God.
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« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2007, 12:03:32 PM »

This is what St.Athanasius has to say.

 and it is impossible for one who is good to be mean or grudging about anything. Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place.
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« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2007, 12:18:10 PM »

Only God the Creator can create that which does not exist. Only God the Lifegiver can give life.
Congratulations. You've just made Man into God.
Are you saying God is the creator of evil? God forbid
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« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2007, 12:24:33 PM »

Are you saying God is the creator of evil? God forbid

What part of the phrase "evil has no indepentent existence" don't you understand? I'm saying that evil is not a creation. It has no independent existence.

You are the one who insists that evil is a creation with it's own independent existence!
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« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2007, 12:30:36 PM »

What part of the phrase "evil has no indepentent existence" don't you understand? I'm saying that evil is not a creation. It has no independent existence.

You are the one who insists that evil is a creation with it's own independent existence!
Can you explain Why Christ calls the devil the evil one if he doesn't exist?
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« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2007, 12:53:41 PM »

Can you explain Why Christ calls the devil the evil one if he doesn't exist?
Firstly: where did I say the devil doesn't exist?
Secondly: where did Christ call the devil "the evil one"?
He doesn't. Not once does Christ ever call the devil "the evil one". He calls him "ο πονηρος" ("the deciever"), "ανθρωποκτονος" ("muderer"), "ψευστης και ο πατηρ αυτου" ("liar and the father of lies"). In other words, Christ defines and names the devil according to what the devil does. And why? Because what the devil does is evil, but the devil is not evil in his created nature.
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