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Author Topic: Model Parishes for Liturgy  (Read 9142 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2007, 09:41:50 PM »

username,

I think the answer to that question is, based on the way the CCEO is written, the Pittsburgh Metropolia would be classified in the Orthodox world as semi-autonomous because while we have our own particular law and jurisdictions, a superior hierarch, the Pope, names our hierarchs.  If our Synod elected our own bishops and simply had them confirmed by the Pope we would be the equivalent of an autonomous Church.

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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2007, 12:56:24 AM »

username,

I think the answer to that question is, based on the way the CCEO is written, the Pittsburgh Metropolia would be classified in the Orthodox world as semi-autonomous because while we have our own particular law and jurisdictions, a superior hierarch, the Pope, names our hierarchs.  If our Synod elected our own bishops and simply had them confirmed by the Pope we would be the equivalent of an autonomous Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

But the poster said the pope was the Latin rite patriarch and didn't refer to the pope's relationship with the Byzcaths.
Also, an autonomous church works like this, let's use the OCA for example.
The OCA has several dioceses, each with its own Bishop.  When an issue arises the recourse would be Metropolitan Herman and the Synod (the bishops working together to handle the issue).
Even if the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church was called "autonomous" by Catholic under Rome standards, they would still have Rome as the ultimate decision maker.  Decisions would be from the top down and not done in the same synodal manner as an autonomous Orthodox Church.
And lest we not forget the pope IS the universal leader, the Supreme Pontif, the Vicar of Christ according to Catholic under Rome canon law, therefore NO Catholic under Rome of ANY rite can deny this about the Pope. 
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lubeltri
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2007, 01:59:14 AM »

Semantics? The very notion that the belief that a Catholic Priest under Rome can convert in his own church is well, an oxymoron.

And that characterization is false. There's no conversion. Is changing jurisdictions in Orthodoxy considered conversion?

I don't want to waste any more time on these semantic games. Father Rohrer simply changed particular churches within the Catholic Church. I don't understand why this is hard to understand.

CATHOLIC CHURCH
    |             |
Latin          Eastern
Church      Churches

Got it? If you still want to (in your mind, it seems) diminish the Eastern Catholics by incorrectly calling them "Roman" Catholics, feel free to do so, but I will no longer take the bait.

I'll put you an example. Out of respect for your church, I refrain from calling it the "Eastern" Orthodox Church, as it does not call itself that. Easternness, ideally, should not exclusively characterize a church that calls itself the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If I were to use "Eastern Orthodox," I would use it to distinguish the vast majority of those of your faith from those who celebrate according to one of the adapted Latin rites (though Western Orthodox admittedly have little or no autonomy in comparison to the Eastern Catholic churches).

Otherwise, Orthodox Church is the appropriate term.

Along the same lines, I would not call the Assyrian Church of the East the "Nestorian" Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church the "Monophysite" Church. It's just disrespectful.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 02:36:39 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2007, 02:35:29 AM »

What does it really matter whether the use the rites of Constantinople or the rites of Rome, they commemorate a Latin Bishop and, as such, they are Latins...regardless of what language and rite they use.
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2007, 02:39:20 AM »

But the poster said the pope was the Latin rite patriarch and didn't refer to the pope's relationship with the Byzcaths.
Also, an autonomous church works like this, let's use the OCA for example.
The OCA has several dioceses, each with its own Bishop.  When an issue arises the recourse would be Metropolitan Herman and the Synod (the bishops working together to handle the issue).
Even if the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church was called "autonomous" by Catholic under Rome standards, they would still have Rome as the ultimate decision maker.  Decisions would be from the top down and not done in the same synodal manner as an autonomous Orthodox Church.
And lest we not forget the pope IS the universal leader, the Supreme Pontif, the Vicar of Christ according to Catholic under Rome canon law, therefore NO Catholic under Rome of ANY rite can deny this about the Pope. 


I've said this before, and I'll say it again. When the Pope wears the vestments of a Byzantine bishop in PUBLIC on a semi regular basis, MAYBE I'll buy the notion of the many "Rites" of the Catholic church.

Until then, or when there is full unity, the Eastern Catholics will be the silent secret of the Catholic church.  One hundred years+ have passed since the appearance of ECC's in the USA. Line up 10 Roman Catholics, and ONE might know what an EC is!

This is one of the reasons I left the BCC to join the Orthodox church. To me, to be Eastern means to be Orthodox, PERIOD. No schizophrenia, no Latin pressure, no "Congregation of the Eastern Churches" , no fear of ordaining married men, et al.

Oh well, the "Union of Uzhorod" lives on.....and on and on......

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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2007, 02:41:28 AM »

What does it really matter whether the use the rites of Constantinople or the rites of Rome, they commemorate a Latin Bishop and, as such, they are Latins...regardless of what language and rite they use.

Not so. The Pope, in our understanding, is not simply a Latin bishop. He is only a Latin bishop in with regard to the Latin Church. He is also the universal pontiff of the Catholic Church, an office which knows neither Latin nor Greek. Peter, of course, was no Latin either.

Eastern Catholics are in the College of Cardinals and can become popes, of course. I am reminded of Lubomyr Cardinal Husar, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic archbishop, who was considered one of the papabile during the 2005 conclave.

It's inappropriate to call Eastern Catholics "Roman Catholics" when neither they nor the Vatican call them that. Were I an Eastern Catholic, I would consider it disrespectful and wonder if it is yet another hostile Haughtydox dig at my remaining in communion with the Holy See.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 02:45:35 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2007, 02:45:53 AM »

Ok, you'll turn blue from holding your breath before you EVER see an Eastern bishop elected Pope in our lifetime! Ain't gonna happen.
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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2007, 02:58:02 AM »

Ok, you'll turn blue from holding your breath before you EVER see an Eastern bishop elected Pope in our lifetime! Ain't gonna happen.

That's only because most Eastern Christians are not in communion with the Holy See. There just aren't many Eastern Catholic hierarchs. It's still completely possible. It certainly would seem more likely than the election of an American as pope. The Holy Spirit does what it will. Who would have expected a Polish pope in 1978?

And that is irrelevant. The Catholic Church sees itself as made up of 23 sui iuris churches, one Latin and 22 Eastern, equal in dignity, each the Catholic Church in microcosm. Read the relevant documents of the Second Vatican Council. Surely in practice the traditions of the Eastern churches have not always been respected, but that was a failing, and the conciliar teachings on this point have been followed much more faithfully than before. Our recent popes have certainly been very clear on this point, backing it up with their actions (consider, for example, John Paul II saying the Creed without the filioque when with Eastern Christians).
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2007, 03:11:04 AM »

Anyway, I think I'll echo what another poster said on another thread:

Regardless, this one is a dead horse.

Some Orthodox will simply not accept the existence of authentic Eastern Catholics any which way until they cast off the Holy See and cease to be Eastern Catholics altogether. It's simply easier to brand them "horrid Unias," as one poster here called them, and be done with it. They don't even seem to get the respect of being called what they call themselves. They have to be labelled instead. There's not much point in continuing this fruitless exchange.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 03:12:12 AM by lubeltri » Logged
arimethea
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2007, 08:33:38 AM »

Wow looks what happens when I sleep! Let's get the discussion back to the original topic. If you want to continue the discussion of what to call a Catholic please take the discussion to the Orthodox-Catholic section.

You are both arguing from a different understanding and the place for that argument is not in this topic. Just remember that those Orthodox in the Mediterranean region use the name Roman and have more of a historical claim to it then those in Italy.
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2007, 12:44:04 PM »

This has already been solved by the intercession of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, thanks be to God. Archbishop Demetrios, as an Exarch of the Patriarch, along with some other representatives, concluded discussions with the Patriarch of Jerusalem a few weeks ago. According to His Eminence, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem has agreed that it should no longer establish churches or monasteries in the diaspora. A pastorally sensitive plan is being developed to address what should be done with those churches that have already been established.


Great news! Thank you for sharing.
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2007, 12:29:17 AM »

Yes. Many.

But most of them -- just as the famous clergy you mentioned -- do not live normal, married lives

Examples, please :-) I would appreciate knowing more about the "living saints" of the Orthodox Church today. The int'l press, for various reasons, practically ignores the existence of Orthodox holy fathers and mothers in our own time. My heart will rejoice to learn that there are still Johns of Kronstadt or Basils of Kineshma at present. Somewhere in Russia, perhaps?

(When I say "living saint", please remember that I'm using it the way we Catholics do, using it to refer to living men and women who have reputations for marvellous sanctity and who are the object of pilgrimages, of people visiting them for advise, for prayers, etc. I do not, of course, mean to refer to the saints in heaven as being somehow not living!)
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2007, 12:46:11 AM »

There are a number of Orthodox Parishes that offer daily liturgy, not many but there are some that do.  Give me a little time and I can get you some links of them that do.  And these are not monasteries.

Examples, please :-)
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2007, 12:51:15 AM »

Anyway, I think I'll echo what another poster said on another thread:

Some Orthodox will simply not accept the existence of authentic Eastern Catholics any which way until they cast off the Holy See and cease to be Eastern Catholics altogether. It's simply easier to brand them "horrid Unias," as one poster here called them, and be done with it. They don't even seem to get the respect of being called what they call themselves. They have to be labelled instead. There's not much point in continuing this fruitless exchange.

I do believe this is an Orthodox forum.  I can name Roman Catholic forums where they have eastern subforums and the Roman Catholics of all rites are very rude towards the orthodox present.  If any Orthodox asks for the blatent rudeness to be calmed down he is usually met with opposition.

And unias?  Please give me a summary of the history of the forced unia of Brest, and the even more controversial unia of uzhorod.  Before you talk about forced unias and  are you an American-Rusyn or American Ukrainian who's family was a part of the forced unias? 

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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2007, 01:00:37 AM »

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« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2007, 12:43:14 AM »



That's doesn't count!  that's an Eastern Catholic parish!  If they don't do it daily, their world may end!
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« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2007, 01:07:33 AM »

http://www.saintmichaels.info/services.asp



That's doesn't count!  that's an Eastern Catholic parish!  If they don't do it daily, their world may end!


It's an ACROD Orthodox parish. For some strange reason, unknown to man, they call themselves Greek Catholic and leave out the word Orthodox in their title.

Sounds like they're not quite sure. I wonder what Archbishop Nicholas thinks? Maybe Bishop Pataki should step in! Grin
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« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2007, 02:27:10 AM »


It's an ACROD Orthodox parish. For some strange reason, unknown to man, they call themselves Greek Catholic and leave out the word Orthodox in their title.

Sounds like they're not quite sure. I wonder what Archbishop Nicholas thinks? Maybe Bishop Pataki should step in! Grin

Stosh, boy you've got some history to learn before you denegrate the local tradition of an Orthodox parish.  I suggest reading Fr. Barriger's "Glory to Jesus Christ." 
A)  St. Michael's is Orthodox
B)  Riddle me this, do you even know what the term Greek Catholic meant two generations ago?
C)  Who is Archbishop Nicholas
D)  Saying Bishop Pataki should step into my diocese's business is really well, I'm speechless.Your whole opinion is horrendous, uneducated, and you have demonstrated you have no clue as to what you are talking about.
E) Carpatho-Rusyn parishes have traditions that pre-date Nikonian reforms (because Nikon didn't have jurisdiction over those in the Carpathian mountains).
Sometimes these get called "latinizations."  While some were, many are just local practices that pre-date anything you may experience in other parishes of other dioceses/jurisdiction.
So, can you please tell us what jurisdiction you belong to so we can write fourth grade playground snide and rude comments about your diocese?
Father Dutko at St. Michael's is celebrating his 60 something anniversary of being an Orthodox priest.  Show some respect to him and his son who is the parish priest and to the 600 souls that are members of this parish.
But to understand why the term Greek Catholic is used, it really takes some reading and understanding, read the book I mentioned. 

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« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2007, 01:18:25 PM »

Ah I always forget this thing.  On the outside of my parish it says "Russian Orthdox Greek Catholic" so I understand where you're coming from.

But Liturgy every day?
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« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2007, 03:19:45 PM »

Stosh, boy you've got some history to learn before you denegrate the local tradition of an Orthodox parish.  I suggest reading Fr. Barriger's "Glory to Jesus Christ." 
A)  St. Michael's is Orthodox
B)  Riddle me this, do you even know what the term Greek Catholic meant two generations ago?
C)  Who is Archbishop Nicholas
D)  Saying Bishop Pataki should step into my diocese's business is really well, I'm speechless.Your whole opinion is horrendous, uneducated, and you have demonstrated you have no clue as to what you are talking about.
E) Carpatho-Rusyn parishes have traditions that pre-date Nikonian reforms (because Nikon didn't have jurisdiction over those in the Carpathian mountains).
Sometimes these get called "latinizations."  While some were, many are just local practices that pre-date anything you may experience in other parishes of other dioceses/jurisdiction.
So, can you please tell us what jurisdiction you belong to so we can write fourth grade playground snide and rude comments about your diocese?
Father Dutko at St. Michael's is celebrating his 60 something anniversary of being an Orthodox priest.  Show some respect to him and his son who is the parish priest and to the 600 souls that are members of this parish.
But to understand why the term Greek Catholic is used, it really takes some reading and understanding, read the book I mentioned. 




Ok Username, here we go again! Roll Eyes

I have read "Glory to Jesus Christ", as well as "Good Victory" by Fr. Barriger so I am well aware of the history of the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church". My post clearly mentioned that St. Michael's in Binghamton is an Orthodox church.

My main point was why don't they have the word Orthodox in their title? Now we both know that the term "Greek Catholic" was used by both the Orthodox church, and the Greek Catholic church in union with Rome. The cornerstones on hundreds of our churches verify this. My little quip about Bishop Pataki was just a little humor thrown in. If the Binghamton church was Byzantine Catholic, it would be under the Passaic diocese. It is CLEARLY under the omophorion  of Metropolitan Nicholas of Johnstown Pa.

You need to lighten up a little! The term Greek Catholic was thrown around so much 70 to 100+ years ago, that it almost meant any Slavic Byzantine tradition church, whether it was Catholic or Orthodox.

It also has to be one of the reasons why the Pittsburgh Metropolia changed from "Greek Catholic" to "Byzantine Catholic".  BTW I'm in the OCA...

P.S. Someone coming today to the U.S. from the old country could be easily confused and think St. Michaels is under Rome if all they have is Greek Catholic in their title. After all, the Byzantine Catholic churches in Europe are still called Greek Catholic. See where the confusion could start?

I know two pros like us could never be confused! Wink Christos Voskrese!
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« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2007, 04:00:57 PM »

The failure to change the name had something to do with deeds and property rights.
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« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2007, 09:42:31 AM »


Ok Username, here we go again! Roll Eyes

I have read "Glory to Jesus Christ", as well as "Good Victory" by Fr. Barriger so I am well aware of the history of the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church". My post clearly mentioned that St. Michael's in Binghamton is an Orthodox church.

My main point was why don't they have the word Orthodox in their title? Now we both know that the term "Greek Catholic" was used by both the Orthodox church, and the Greek Catholic church in union with Rome. The cornerstones on hundreds of our churches verify this. My little quip about Bishop Pataki was just a little humor thrown in. If the Binghamton church was Byzantine Catholic, it would be under the Passaic diocese. It is CLEARLY under the omophorion  of Metropolitan Nicholas of Johnstown Pa.

You need to lighten up a little! The term Greek Catholic was thrown around so much 70 to 100+ years ago, that it almost meant any Slavic Byzantine tradition church, whether it was Catholic or Orthodox.

It also has to be one of the reasons why the Pittsburgh Metropolia changed from "Greek Catholic" to "Byzantine Catholic".  BTW I'm in the OCA...

P.S. Someone coming today to the U.S. from the old country could be easily confused and think St. Michaels is under Rome if all they have is Greek Catholic in their title. After all, the Byzantine Catholic churches in Europe are still called Greek Catholic. See where the confusion could start?

I know two pros like us could never be confused! Wink Christos Voskrese!

Where are we going again?
-Still to make any sort of joke about a fellow Orthodox parish is rude.
-Greek Catholic was sort of a national identity two generations/three generations ago.  People said, "we speak Greek in church."  They meant Slavonic, I don't understand that either.  I've heard that said several times in the past six months believe that one and not in reference to actual Greek but to Slavonic (or Slavish, the generic term around here for any Slavic language).
Hence, the term Greek Catholic at one time was more of an ethnic badge, an identity for a people whose borders, rulers and geographical location shifted often.
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« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2007, 11:40:52 AM »

THREAD LOCKED!

I am locking this thread since no one is talking about the actual subject of the Thread and instead it has turned into a debate about the proper use of the words "Greek Catholic." If you want to continue this debate please open it in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.
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