OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 23, 2014, 07:32:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Would You Like North America To Have It's Own Orthodox Church???
Yes - 58 (68.2%)
No - 19 (22.4%)
Other - 8 (9.4%)
Total Voters: 85

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do You Want an American Orthodox Church  (Read 22685 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« on: May 04, 2007, 07:09:28 PM »

The question assumes you all know about the chaotic jurisdictional nightmare in America. The quesiton is clear. For those of you who just like to be argumentative, I will clarify it even more (even though you already know what the question means). Would you like to see an end of the overlaping Orthodox Jurisdictions in North America, and to see a united- self ruling- autonomous Orthodox Church in North America?? That would mean that there would not be any more jurisdictions, but just one Orthodox church in North America.
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 07:16:13 PM »

America already has an Orthodox Church. In fact it has several.
Why is it not an "American" Church unless it is autocephalous?.....Phyletism perhaps?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 07:18:41 PM »

As usual george, you are on the wrong side.   Kiss
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 07:24:08 PM »

As usual george, you are on the wrong side.   Kiss
Planet Earth is round, it has no sides. Wink
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 07:30:08 PM »

Is this topic a hot potato?
Logged
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 07:36:06 PM »

Im most inerested in the poll
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 07:47:29 PM »

I am in favor of an autonomous, Orthodox Church with no overlapping jurisdictionalism, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople*.  In 200-300 years, maybe it can be autocephalous when an Orthodox American cultural synthesis has developed, there are 40 functioning monasteries, and most parishes have stable populations.

(*assuming of course that the incumbent fits my strict standards of Orthodox doctrinal purity Wink)
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
authio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 369



« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2007, 07:59:47 PM »

Yes please.
Logged

Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2007, 08:35:38 PM »

I am in favor of an autonomous, Orthodox Church with no overlapping jurisdictionalism, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople*.  In 200-300 years, maybe it can be autocephalous when an Orthodox American cultural synthesis has developed, there are 40 functioning monasteries, and most parishes have stable populations.

(*assuming of course that the incumbent fits my strict standards of Orthodox doctrinal purity Wink)

So you're waiting for another Meletios Metaksakis? So am I Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,189


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 08:46:15 PM »

I am in favor of an autonomous, Orthodox Church with no overlapping jurisdictionalism, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople*.  In 200-300 years, maybe it can be autocephalous when an Orthodox American cultural synthesis has developed, there are 40 functioning monasteries, and most parishes have stable populations.

(*assuming of course that the incumbent fits my strict standards of Orthodox doctrinal purity Wink)
So you're waiting for another Meletios Metaksakis? So am I Wink

Sorry for all the quoting confusion, but this is why I voted other.  I may have been unclear about the question though.  Am I supposed to vote based on "hypothetical" or real?  I would only say yes if the above were to happen.  That's why I voted other. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 11:08:19 PM »

America already has an Orthodox Church. In fact it has several.
Why is it not an "American" Church unless it is autocephalous?.....Phyletism perhaps?
No, not phyletism...  actually the canonical model of episcopal jurisdiction within the Church, the beginnings of which were laid out in the First Council of Nicea.  This model, as I understand it, is that the mission dioceses in a particular region (understood today as the nation-state) would eventually mature to the level of self-sufficiency and rule themselves without submission to an outside ecclesiastical authority other than the universal Church.  Of course, the current situation in America is anything but self-sufficient, as evidenced by our overlapping jurisdictions, but unity in self-rule should be our goal.
Logged
Aristibule
Your Weaker Brother
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 515


Xeno


« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 11:31:54 PM »

Yes, but not now. With ethnic chaplaincy there is no reason for an American Orthodox Church - and I'm not interested in a deracinated 'ideological America' that some jurisdictions try to sell as inseparable from their missionary approach.
Logged

"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866
Eleos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Posts: 251


« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2007, 12:10:28 AM »

I voted no.  I worry that a national American church would cause members to perceive a need for more powerful federal government since people have a tendency to confuse worldy government with their faith.  I favor state level autocephalous churches, and in some cases county or city churches depending on the local scene. 

On the other hand,if we ever have another civil war it could lead to things like the "Texan Orthodox Church Outside of Texas" (TOCOT) and the "Michigan Orthodox Peoples Pravoslavyic Evangelical Diocese (MOPPED)" and such.

Regardless, I think we need to work hard on making sure that there is only 1 orthodox bishop in a given city.  More than one orthodox bishop assigned to the same city is too much ecclesiastical homosexuality (in a typological sense) for me.

I also think that since America is an immigrant nation, the greater world scene of orthodoxy needs to solve its schisms before trying another nation church experiment here.  For example, both communions on each side of the Chalcedon should reconcile with each other since they both have large populations in America with real spiritual needs.  "American orthodoxy" is a microcosm of orthodox christian relationships and historical situations worldwide.  At least we have free speech.
Logged

"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2007, 12:32:15 AM »

Well, personally I'm not voitng because I'm not really sure what you're asking.  Is it an autonomous, autochepolous, or under another heiarch?  I could go for all of the above.  Old Calendar or New?  Hopefully Old.  Would it be able to find a workable way of working out all the cultural differences and not merely just create sub-jurisidctions a la OCA? I would hope so.,  etc. It feels as though you're asking a loaded question and it is much more complicated than simply yes or no.    I have yet to see any proposal that would tackle all of these aspects and for me, they are very important.  That said, if it could work, then sure.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2007, 01:22:14 AM »

It will NEVER happen.
I have given up
It will only fragment more
American Orthodox are protestants with incense,
It's a bunch of Othodox denominations, just like Presbyterians, etc,

MODERATION:
Please refrain from sweeping ad hominems.
Most of the posters on this forum are American and Orthodox, and no one is in a position to judge their faith or spiritual disposition with statements such as "American Orthodox are protestants with incense".
If you wish to make a point about juristictionalism, then you can do so without insulting both Orthodox and Protestants in America.
George.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 01:39:33 AM by ozgeorge » Logged
Justinian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 176


« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2007, 01:36:10 AM »

It will NEVER happen.
I have given up
It will only fragment more
American Orthodox are protestants with incense,
It's a bunch of Othodox denominations, just like Presbyterians, etc,

Ah, you are the King of Generalization! Have you read New Canon #2?
Logged

"All this indignation have I hurled, At the pretending part of the proud world. Who, swollen with selfish vanity devise: false freedoms, holy cheats, and formal lies, Over their fellow slaves to tyrannize." - John Wilmot
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2007, 01:42:19 AM »

It will NEVER happen.
I have given up
It will only fragment more
American Orthodox are protestants with incense,
It's a bunch of Othodox denominations, just like Presbyterians, etc,

Hardly!
For the most part we all believe in the same thing.  Shoot, must of use speak the same language.  You get a Greek and a Russian together and they may disagree with food during trapeza and occasional nuances, but hardly dogma.  Protestants on the other hand do disagree on dogma.  God help you if you get a Baptist and a Presbyerian in the same room, and an Episcopal to boot!  Our seperation is a historical occurance.

Secondly, you say it'll fragment more?  I'm a bit confused as I don't see that occurring.  For that matter, they are actually de-fragmenting if you consider the new state ROCOR is entering.  The only possible way I can see them fragmenting more is an irrational and sudden forced joining. 

I'm quite perplexed at your post as it seems emotive and not logical.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2007, 02:09:06 AM »

ROCOR will drive a greater wedge between the OCA and themselves and any Russians who detest the KGB and its cooperating priests.

The EP and MP will never cooperate and will be in competition for eons. (Old Rome to New Rome - oops, already had that schism; New Rome to Holy Russia)
Old calendarists, new calendarists, nationalists, anti- Antiochians (especially on OC.net) and pro- Antiochians, pro Western rite, anti-western rite, traditionalist vs. non-trad.

Come on, do you ever see jurisdictional unity in the US? And if not, all those Free Methodists and traditonal Methodists, American Baptists, General Baptists and Southern Baptists, Evangelical Presbyterians, Associate-Reformed Presbyterians, Presbyterian Church of North America (Covenanters), Presbyterian Church in America, Lutheran Church, Evangelical Synod and Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Christian Reformed Church, Reformed Church in America, et al have every right to view all the jurisdictions as so many denominations, just like themselves.
Logged
Justinian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 176


« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2007, 02:11:44 AM »

ROCOR will drive a greater wedge between the OCA and themselves and any Russians who detest the KGB and its cooperating priests.

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You are one of those...

Nevermind...
Logged

"All this indignation have I hurled, At the pretending part of the proud world. Who, swollen with selfish vanity devise: false freedoms, holy cheats, and formal lies, Over their fellow slaves to tyrannize." - John Wilmot
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2007, 02:13:56 AM »

God help you if you get a Baptist and a Presbyerian in the same room, and an Episcopal to boot!  Our seperation is a historical occurance.

Actually, if the Baptist, Presbyterian and Episcopal were all Calvinist/Reformed, they would have a whole lot more in common than you could ever imagine. Consider Roger Nicole (Reformed Baptist), J.I. Packer (Reformed Anglican) and R.C. Sproul (Reformed Presbyterian) - all speak at the same Reformed theology conferences and all make up a kind of de facto "college of cardinals" of American Reformed theology, all are colleagues and great friends; administration of the sacraments and church government, although important, is a secondary or tertiary issue, if you are in agreement on predestination and TULIP, for people of this persuasion.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:35:12 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2007, 02:17:18 AM »

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You are one of those...

Nevermind...

NO. I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW I MIGHT HAVE REACTED OR DEALT WITH THAT SITUATION.
I am a pampered American. I would never judge those who endured that trial and tribulation. But I am in one of those jurisdictions and I have read enough posts on these boards

But thank you for your judgment and rebuke.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 10:05:56 AM by cleveland » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2007, 02:28:18 AM »

Old calendarists, new calendarists, nationalists, anti- Antiochians (especially on OC.net) and pro- Antiochians, pro Western rite, anti-western rite, traditionalist vs. non-trad.
It's called "Unity in Diversity". It seems to be one of those parts of Orthodoxy which a lot of people give lip service to, but when confronted with it's incarnate reality, they cry "The sky is falling!". It seems to me that the only unity you seem to accept as genuine is administrative unity. If that's the best the Orthodox Church can do towards the eschatological end of the Unity of All Things in Christ, then she is just a big phoney. What you seem to want is the Orthodox Parish Churches in America to be identical to one another with no variation....like suburban branches of McDonalds.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 02:52:05 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2007, 03:40:17 AM »

It's called "Unity in Diversity". It seems to be one of those parts of Orthodoxy which a lot of people give lip service to, but when confronted with it's incarnate reality, they cry "The sky is falling!". It seems to me that the only unity you seem to accept as genuine is administrative unity. If that's the best the Orthodox Church can do towards the eschatological end of the Unity of All Things in Christ, then she is just a big phoney. What you seem to want is the Orthodox Parish Churches in America to be identical to one another with no variation....like suburban branches of McDonalds.
Doesn't it appear that much of the problem is that now that we face a major crisis--in our case, the crisis of modernism and post-modernism--many Orthodox only exaggerate our deeply ingrained sense of the battle between Truth and heresy?  I often wonder how much of what some call heresy worthy of schism from "World Orthodoxy" really is.

"even if the Church made a mistake, exactness in the observance of times would not be as important as the offense caused by this division and this schism."  (St. John Chrysostom to those who accused the Church of changing the date of Pascha to appease Constantine)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 03:41:18 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2007, 09:17:27 AM »

The question assumes you all know about the chaotic jurisdictional nightmare in America. The quesiton is clear. For those of you who just like to be argumentative, I will clarify it even more (even though you already know what the question means). Would you like to see an end of the overlaping Orthodox Jurisdictions in North America, and to see a united- self ruling- autonomous Orthodox Church in North America?? That would mean that there would not be any more jurisdictions, but just one Orthodox church in North America.

I voted "other."

Do I want to see the overlapping jurisdictions united into one?  Absolutely.

Does said hypothetical jurisdiction also have to be autonomous/autocephalous?  Not necessarily.

Once again, you (among others) are damaging the argument for unity by tying it claims for autonomy.  The one is not dependent on the other and to insist that they be a package is to hold unity hostage.  Unity first; autonomy when it's appropriate.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2007, 09:23:48 AM »

ozgeorge, administrative unity and correcting the non-canonical situation (where in New York City, I think there is something like 17 Orthodox bishops) is somrthing to be desired.

Also, among some of those rifts I listed, there is almost near-schism and non-communion. You can't just blithely say it's unity in diversity.

finally, if we can claim unity indiversity, so can all the presbyterian "jurisdictions" and all the baptist "jurisdictions" etc. So Orthodox should just shut up about the 20,000 or so protestant denominations until they group them according to their likenesses, affording them the same "unity in diversity' we claim for ourselves; then you might only have say: presbyterians, methodists, lutherans, anglicans, baptists, congregationalists, charasmatics, pentecostals, brethren, mennonite/amish. A much more tidy number[less than 17] (there would be fringe groups, like the salvation army - is it a church or an organization; and by the way, I hope to NEVER see again on OC.net, under-educated individuals insult our protestant Christian fellows by lumping a non-Christian cult like mormonism as a protestant denomination, as happened in a post recently in another thread)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:25:37 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2007, 09:30:25 AM »

Doesn't it appear that much of the problem is that now that we face a major crisis--in our case, the crisis of modernism and post-modernism--many Orthodox only exaggerate our deeply ingrained sense of the battle between Truth and heresy?  I often wonder how much of what some call heresy worthy of schism from "World Orthodoxy" really is.




Well said, Peter.   
Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2007, 09:32:13 AM »

I find that in the words from a Rolling Stones song. "... you can't always get what you want, but if you try some times, you just might find, you get what you need . . ."

We have what we need for the time being.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2007, 11:48:53 AM »

Also, among some of those rifts I listed, there is almost near-schism and non-communion. You can't just blithely say it's unity in diversity.

The fringe is rather well defined in Orthodoxy, it's those Churches not in Communion with Constantinople; if there exists non-communion between two Orthodox groups, chances are that one side can be dismissed as trivial.

Quote
finally, if we can claim unity indiversity, so can all the presbyterian "jurisdictions" and all the baptist "jurisdictions" etc. So Orthodox should just shut up about the 20,000 or so protestant denominations until they group them according to their likenesses, affording them the same "unity in diversity' we claim for ourselves; then you might only have say: presbyterians, methodists, lutherans, anglicans, baptists, congregationalists, charasmatics, pentecostals, brethren, mennonite/amish. A much more tidy number[less than 17] (there would be fringe groups, like the salvation army - is it a church or an organization; and by the way, I hope to NEVER see again on OC.net, under-educated individuals insult our protestant Christian fellows by lumping a non-Christian cult like mormonism as a protestant denomination, as happened in a post recently in another thread)

Mormons are essentially another protestant denomination; yeah, they're heretics and have some absurd ideas...but which protestant groups don't? Granted, I would be hesitant to compare the Anglicans and many Lutherans with the mormons...but I'd also be hesitant to compare them to the charismatics and pentecostals. The mormons are no more absurd in their praxis and theology than the charismatics or pentecostals or the various fundamentalist baptists. Heck, many of these denominations, in their theology, have more in common with radical islam than Christianity.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2007, 12:24:31 PM »

One other thing I would say Brother Aiden is that you may be getting too worked up about it.  If you truly believe the Orthodox Church to be God's Church and the Church, then we can be confident that the Holy Spirit will work it out when the time is right.  Is it a mess? yes.  Is it hurting people? sure.  However, look at the Arian crisis during Nicea.  There were parallel jurisdictions going on in that time WITH different dogmas being taught (and this even goes beyond just Nicean Christians or Arians).  Orthodoxy was in the minority in many areas and there were still heavy persscutions going on.  Orthodoxy prevailed.  Likewise it will do so here.  That does not mean we can sit idely and wait for it to happen, but it does mean that if we believe the Creed we say every day that God shall work the mess out to His satisfaction when the time is right.  One day it will just  . . .. click.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2007, 02:57:16 PM »

I don't think we know how a united church will come about in America. But I am very hopeful it is already happening as we speak. My personal opinion is it will happen on a region by region basis as we receive new, younger, bishops who desire to cooperate with one another across jurisdictional lines. Our west coast bishops are all relatively new and they actually seem to enjoy each other's company by the news accounts of their various concelebrations and their first historic meeting. We have no idea what is in store for us but our west coast bishops are trying to find ways to encourage us to work together as one Church instead of as tiny separate parts of one Church. Our witness will be much stronger and our outreach/ministries will be more effective when we work as one. Let's see what happens on the west coast over the next few years. If things go well, it may be the model of things to come. Don't lose heart!

ps. I don't see us losing our diversity as we work together but we may begin to share our rich heritage with one another. Living in such a secular society I value the customs of all of our traditions that help us to retain our faith and our youth.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 03:08:28 PM by Tamara » Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2007, 03:42:46 PM »

If I may be so bold as to weigh in here about the alleged 'disunity' among the Orthodox in ths country...

In the last month, I have traveled to a different town to meet with a SCOBA-sponsored organization known as the Orthodox Christian Fellowship. Students from the GOA, OCA, Serbian, and Antiochian 'jurisdictions' meet together, along with Orthodox students from the Old World. We meet at an OCA parish, where I have concelebrated the Liturgy there with the parish priest, and have clearance from the OCA bishop to celebrate any other Mystery that needs to occur for the salvation of the OCF members and the parishioners there who just happen to be attending.

Also, I needed to be away from my parish for a Liturgy. An Antiochian Deacon served at the Liturgy in my place, since with over a thousand people in my parish it is too much to expect the Cathedral Dean to distribute the Eucharist all by himself. In compensation, when the Antiochian parish priest is ready to take his summer vacation, it has been agreed that I will be his 'substitute', since I can liturgise in English, Greek, and Arabic (barely!). The Antiochian Deacon will return to my Cathedral on that day to assist the Dean as we trade clergy to help our parishes. Everything has been cleared with the Antiochian Hierarch as a matter of course---no 'special circumstances' were involved.

There is also an OCA and MP parish in town, and we have visited each other's parishioners in hospitals and celebrated at the same altar. Their youth groups are coordinating their activities with ours so that there can be big get-togethers from time to time.

My parish is formally assisting in funding the Antiochian parish, and is looking to add the OCA parish associated with the OCF to our funding plan for this year.

In fact, we have a Byzantine Rite family who is converting to Orthodoxy with one of the reasons being that their perception is that the Orthodox Churches in this country are more united that the Catholic churches, and gave some examples regarding adminstrative differences---I didn't really understand all they were saying, but it involved paperwork if they wanted to go to a different church or something like that.

In a nutshell, I'd like to make the following points:

1. Besides the Eucharistic union, the Orthodox Church in this country is much more 'administratively united' than people think. This is a process where suddenly people will wake up and realize "Wow! We've been doing all that stuff together for how long now?"

2. For whatever reason, this situation is what the Spirit knows we need for our salvation right now. In the fullness of time, and if it is needed, the administrative overlaps will be removed and those who do not know just how much cooperation actually exists will find that really there has been no difference made other than some hierarchs will have different cities attached to their name.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 03:43:56 PM by FrChris » Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2007, 04:02:20 PM »

If I may be so bold as to weigh in here about the alleged 'disunity' among the Orthodox in ths country...

In the last month, I have traveled to a different town to meet with a SCOBA-sponsored organization known as the Orthodox Christian Fellowship. Students from the GOA, OCA, Serbian, and Antiochian 'jurisdictions' meet together, along with Orthodox students from the Old World. We meet at an OCA parish, where I have concelebrated the Liturgy there with the parish priest, and have clearance from the OCA bishop to celebrate any other Mystery that needs to occur for the salvation of the OCF members and the parishioners there who just happen to be attending.

Also, I needed to be away from my parish for a Liturgy. An Antiochian Deacon served at the Liturgy in my place, since with over a thousand people in my parish it is too much to expect the Cathedral Dean to distribute the Eucharist all by himself. In compensation, when the Antiochian parish priest is ready to take his summer vacation, it has been agreed that I will be his 'substitute', since I can liturgise in English, Greek, and Arabic (barely!). The Antiochian Deacon will return to my Cathedral on that day to assist the Dean as we trade clergy to help our parishes. Everything has been cleared with the Antiochian Hierarch as a matter of course---no 'special circumstances' were involved.

There is also an OCA and MP parish in town, and we have visited each other's parishioners in hospitals and celebrated at the same altar. Their youth groups are coordinating their activities with ours so that there can be big get-togethers from time to time.

My parish is formally assisting in funding the Antiochian parish, and is looking to add the OCA parish associated with the OCF to our funding plan for this year.

In fact, we have a Byzantine Rite family who is converting to Orthodoxy with one of the reasons being that their perception is that the Orthodox Churches in this country are more united that the Catholic churches, and gave some examples regarding adminstrative differences---I didn't really understand all they were saying, but it involved paperwork if they wanted to go to a different church or something like that.

In a nutshell, I'd like to make the following points:

1. Besides the Eucharistic union, the Orthodox Church in this country is much more 'administratively united' than people think. This is a process where suddenly people will wake up and realize "Wow! We've been doing all that stuff together for how long now?"

2. For whatever reason, this situation is what the Spirit knows we need for our salvation right now. In the fullness of time, and if it is needed, the administrative overlaps will be removed and those who do not know just how much cooperation actually exists will find that really there has been no difference made other than some hierarchs will have different cities attached to their name.

Dear Fr. Chris,

It is good to hear that in your region of the country cooperation between the jurisdictions is at such a high level. We, on the west coast, are just beginning to experience this type of cooperation (at the hierarchial level). I honestly believe unity will be more practically met at the local level and will work its way up until as a church we will realize it is redundant and expensive to maintain 15 separate holy synods and national chanceries. At that point, the bishops will come together in order to facilitate our Christian work. I would compare it to closing a zipper. This could happen more quickly if some of the smaller jurisdictions see their numbers continue to drop dramatically over the next twenty years. Survival may motivate some of the smaller jurisdictions to join up more quickly than we can predict.
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2007, 05:06:06 PM »

thank you Fr. Chris for your encouraging report!
also to you Tamara!
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2007, 05:19:46 PM »



Mormons are essentially another protestant denomination; yeah, they're heretics and have some absurd ideas...but which protestant groups don't? Granted, I would be hesitant to compare the Anglicans and many Lutherans with the mormons...but I'd also be hesitant to compare them to the charismatics and pentecostals. The mormons are no more absurd in their praxis and theology than the charismatics or pentecostals or the various fundamentalist baptists. Heck, many of these denominations, in their theology, have more in common with radical islam than Christianity.

GiC, I know you like to be purposefully controversial, but this is plain silly; yes charismatics and pentacostals are very different from the liturgical protestants, as are some fundamentalists. But they are all trinitarian in their beliefs (although there are some "Jesus-only" pentacostals) - maybe a bit deficient in their trinitarian understanding, but trinitarian (at least the non-liberals are, and even many of them still affirm the trinity) nonetheless; they also believe in ith Bible as God's Word, baptism and communion, the virgin conception, the historical resurrection (except for some liberals), the ascension and eventual return of Christ. So they share alot with each other (and with us).

But mormons do NOT believe in the trinity; nor in the divinity of Christ; nor in the Bible - they elevate their book of mormon over it. Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists also fall into this category. These groups are not merely heretical or heterodox - thy are simply NOT Christian groups at all.

They really have nothing in common with Islam at all. Even the mormons and JW's and CS's!
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2007, 06:02:29 PM »

GiC, I know you like to be purposefully controversial, but this is plain silly; yes charismatics and pentacostals are very different from the liturgical protestants, as are some fundamentalists. But they are all trinitarian in their beliefs (although there are some "Jesus-only" pentacostals) - maybe a bit deficient in their trinitarian understanding, but trinitarian (at least the non-liberals are, and even many of them still affirm the trinity) nonetheless; they also believe in ith Bible as God's Word, baptism and communion, the virgin conception, the historical resurrection (except for some liberals), the ascension and eventual return of Christ. So they share alot with each other (and with us).

But mormons do NOT believe in the trinity; nor in the divinity of Christ; nor in the Bible - they elevate their book of mormon over it. Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists also fall into this category. These groups are not merely heretical or heterodox - thy are simply NOT Christian groups at all.

They really have nothing in common with Islam at all. Even the mormons and JW's and CS's!
BrotherAidan,

I agree with you that it's not wise to oversimplify the Protestant scene by so loosely calling the Mormons Protestants or even Christian.  Using Orthodoxy as the basis of what is Christian and what is not, I can at least agree that Protestantism hasn't deviated far enough from Traditional Christianity to be called non-Christian, while the Mormon and JW cults have.  However, I do see many of the American cults having arisen from much more extreme applications of the general Protestant hermeneutic and from many of the individualistic spiritual practices that traditional Protestantism has encouraged.  In this sense, I guess one could call Protestant such cults as the LDS church, the Watchtower Society, and the Christian Scientists.
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2007, 11:26:11 PM »

BrotherAidan,

I agree with you that it's not wise to oversimplify the Protestant scene by so loosely calling the Mormons Protestants or even Christian.  Using Orthodoxy as the basis of what is Christian and what is not, I can at least agree that Protestantism hasn't deviated far enough from Traditional Christianity to be called non-Christian, while the Mormon and JW cults have.  However, I do see many of the American cults having arisen from much more extreme applications of the general Protestant hermeneutic and from many of the individualistic spiritual practices that traditional Protestantism has encouraged.  In this sense, I guess one could call Protestant such cults as the LDS church, the Watchtower Society, and the Christian Scientists.

I can agree regarding a certain ethos and the spiritual individualism and personal interpretation practices of protestantism. And it certainly was a contributing factor. But the cultural individualism and general personal autonomy and antinomianism of American culture, which has a lot of Enlightenment rationalism infused in it also had alot to do with the rise of those cults. It's probably no accident they developed in America.

Also, don't forget that there were heretical, Christian deriviative cults in the early centuries of the Church that the Fathers did battle with in both the East and West, when there were no protestants.

I find it insulting and uncharitable and dismissive to lump Christian protestants with non-Christian cults (and BTW, I don't think you are doing that; you were simply looking at the methodology and commenting on how it could logically end up bearing its full fruit in these cults)
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2007, 12:03:45 AM »

One other thing I would say Brother Aiden is that you may be getting too worked up about it.  If you truly believe the Orthodox Church to be God's Church and the Church, then we can be confident that the Holy Spirit will work it out when the time is right.  Is it a mess? yes.  Is it hurting people? sure.  However, look at the Arian crisis during Nicea.  There were parallel jurisdictions going on in that time WITH different dogmas being taught (and this even goes beyond just Nicean Christians or Arians).  Orthodoxy was in the minority in many areas and there were still heavy persscutions going on.  Orthodoxy prevailed.  Likewise it will do so here.  That does not mean we can sit idely and wait for it to happen, but it does mean that if we believe the Creed we say every day that God shall work the mess out to His satisfaction when the time is right.  One day it will just  . . .. click.

Man...do I ever wish there were an "APPLAUSE" smiley on this forum...'cause that DESERVES one...

1. Besides the Eucharistic union, the Orthodox Church in this country is much more 'administratively united' than people think. This is a process where suddenly people will wake up and realize "Wow! We've been doing all that stuff together for how long now?"

2. For whatever reason, this situation is what the Spirit knows we need for our salvation right now. In the fullness of time, and if it is needed, the administrative overlaps will be removed and those who do not know just how much cooperation actually exists will find that really there has been no difference made other than some hierarchs will have different cities attached to their name.

Ditto this!  An excellent reality check for those of us (myself included) who get so antsy about this that we forget about what we already do have as the Body of Christ because we focus on what (we think) we'd like to have!

Careful what you wish for...
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2007, 04:21:47 AM »

Quote
But mormons do NOT believe in the trinity; nor in the divinity of Christ; nor in the Bible - they elevate their book of mormon over it. Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists also fall into this category. These groups are not merely heretical or heterodox - thy are simply NOT Christian groups at all.

It might be different where you are, but having grown up in the part of the world with the second highest LDS population my experiences differ.  In practice very few Mormons really get that into their sort of off the wall the doctines.  Judging from what I've seen, most are more drawn to the strong communal aspects of Mormonism and simply put up with the bad theology.  In many ways they resemble the old small town Scandanavian Lutheran communities I remember from my Mom's side of the family....

Also it is being a bit arbitrary to refuse to consider Mormons Christians.  They certainly consider themselves Christians - and from my own experiences growing up here, they are far more Christian culturally than most with more proper theology. 

Quote
That does not mean we can sit idely and wait for it to happen, but it does mean that if we believe the Creed we say every day that God shall work the mess out to His satisfaction when the time is right.  One day it will just  . . .. click.

That is fine and good but this line of thought usually leads to complacency under the pretext of "we are the true church, thus our status quo of mediocrity shouldn't be challanged since to challange it would be to challange the true church."  So while a healthy balence is needed - if one isn't angry and horrified at the pathetic state of Orthodoxy throughout the world today, they shouldn't be calling themselves Orthodox Christians.  We are clearly NOT living up to our vocation, and it is time we stop patting ourselves on the back about how we are the true church. 
Logged
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2007, 09:06:53 AM »

Quote
That is fine and good but this line of thought usually leads to complacency under the pretext of "we are the true church, thus our status quo of mediocrity shouldn't be challanged since to challange it would be to challange the true church."  So while a healthy balence is needed - if one isn't angry and horrified at the pathetic state of Orthodoxy throughout the world today, they shouldn't be calling themselves Orthodox Christians.  We are clearly NOT living up to our vocation, and it is time we stop patting ourselves on the back about how we are the true church.

Well, apparently you not only didn't read my first phrase in the line you quoted, but you also took it out of its context.

Quote
That does not mean we can sit idely and wait for it to happen, but it does mean that if we believe the Creed we say every day that God shall work the mess out to His satisfaction when the time is right.  One day it will just  . . .. click.

I am perfectly aware of where this can lead and I was hardly endorsing it.  Rather, we must work with this hope, but not neccesarily force things.  If we gave up in frustration an forced an American Church this would cause much more harm than waiting a generation and let it take place locally and organically.  No where am I endorsing us not to work.  Rather, it should be known in the knowledge that God will set things right.  Then again, perhaps, I am just a more optomistic person.  Although, Orthodoxy (and Christianity) has seen better days, I'd hardly call it in a "pathetic state." 
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2007, 04:09:42 PM »

I voted yes, so long as the EP is the Patriarch until things get more settled, like Anastasios said.

We have a nice intermingling of youths from the two southern Maine GOA churches. However, it's hard to have any unity meetings here, because from what I know, all we have are 4 GOA parishes.
Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2007, 04:29:56 PM »

I voted yes, so long as the EP is the Patriarch until things get more settled, like Anastasios said.
As a member of the OCA, I certainly don't have a problem with the canonicity of allowing the EP to take ALL American Orthodox Christians under his wing.  I just hope that the EP would respect the diversity of cultural and liturgical traditions that currently exist in the various Orthodox jurisdictions in America and not require that we all, even us in the OCA and the ROCOR, convert to Greek practice--judging from my limited knowledge of the Orthodox scene in Western Europe, I don't think I have anything to fear in this regard, but that depends a lot on who occupies the Ecumenical throne.  I do not support the divisions we continue to see between the various Old-World Orthodox cultures here in America, but neither do I endorse the eradication of cultural distinctives for the sake of some artificial, abstract Orthodoxy that has no meaning to everyday life.
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2007, 11:27:05 PM »

As a member of the OCA, I certainly don't have a problem with the canonicity of allowing the EP to take ALL American Orthodox Christians under his wing.  I just hope that the EP would respect the diversity of cultural and liturgical traditions that currently exist in the various Orthodox jurisdictions in America and not require that we all, even us in the OCA and the ROCOR, convert to Greek practice--judging from my limited knowledge of the Orthodox scene in Western Europe, I don't think I have anything to fear in this regard, but that depends a lot on who occupies the Ecumenical throne.  I do not support the divisions we continue to see between the various Old-World Orthodox cultures here in America, but neither do I endorse the eradication of cultural distinctives for the sake of some artificial, abstract Orthodoxy that has no meaning to everyday life.

For comfort, referring to the words I changed colour to, in the USA the Ecumenical Patriarch has the GOA, the Ukrainian Orthodox and the ACROD.  Three different small traditions, plus local parish level differences already exist.  I wouldn't worry too much about your thoughts in your post Smiley
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 11:28:29 PM by username! » Logged

pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2007, 12:16:02 PM »

For comfort, referring to the words I changed colour to, in the USA the Ecumenical Patriarch has the GOA, the Ukrainian Orthodox and the ACROD.  Three different small traditions, plus local parish level differences already exist.  I wouldn't worry too much about your thoughts in your post Smiley

The diversity goes even further. The Ecumenical Patriarchate also includes a whole system of Stavropegial monasteries and churches that are Greek AND on the Old Calendar. Plus, a very small Albanian Orthodox diocese.

That's five distinct liturgical, linguistic, ethnic -- and calendar-related -- traditions in the U.S., all unified under the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Aristibule
Your Weaker Brother
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 515


Xeno


« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2007, 01:43:59 PM »

I wouldn't overstate it - the EP isn't all that friendly to diversity. They'd be no home for those of Russian tradition nor Western rite, to begin with. Canonically, I don't think an American Orthodox Church would or should have any business with the EP. Rather, the MP is where things must practically begin and end.
Logged

"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2007, 01:58:42 PM »

Well, obviously I disagree with your assessment on literally every count. But that's an argument without a resolution...

That said, I imagine we can agree on one thing: there will not be an "American Orthodox Church" in the foreseeable future.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Tags: phyletism ethnocentrism maturity OCA Culture Tradition preservation 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.147 seconds with 74 queries.