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Author Topic: Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 21798 times) Average Rating: 0
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Amdetsion
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« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2007, 04:59:21 PM »

I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)

It is a combination of both of the above.

We live in a world filled with sick people who have carefully planted their hate for God in the most unsuspecting places. They want us all to be haters of God; even if we do not mean to be.

This particular phrase is exceptionally sick. It turns me physically ill to think of what the creator of this phrase attempts to apply with this compound phrase.

Please be careful everybody...
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« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2007, 10:44:40 AM »

I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.

Thank you for this account.  May one ask where in this was your Muslim period and how long it lasted?  Was your  "very strict and exacting religious background" a Christian one?  I'm just trying to understand your explorations as it were.  Thank you.

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Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. Cheesy

Well, here I think that "should" is the right word.  Since from your previous posts you think that Jewish people and Muslim people *ought* to become Christian (and there by deny/drop the beliefs they presently hold.)  it is, in effect, "You should become Christian."  and any reasons given are the "Why should they do that" support.  If I tell one of my children that they should do something that I believe is a good thing and they don't agree they might ask "why should I" which is different from "would".  If your reasons or "proofs" or examples do not convince another person, they are quite understandably not going to do what *you* think they ought to do.

Thank you for the overview of some of the parts of Islam.  I know them, but other readers here may not.

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You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.

A "lifetime of examples"?  There are century upon century of bad examples, and plenty of the same thing happening even today.  (the "Protocols", "Jewish Conspiracies", and more).  Why should one person (who they likely have not known for a "lifetime" but months or years if that) think that *they* can counter that.  Also, the other person is not watching "you live your faith" but seeing only bits of it when you interact with them.  A Christian can be charitable and another can be uncharitable.  You might say that the second person is not *really* being a Christian, but that is probably not what the non-Christian sees. 

Quote
Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 

And I acknowledge that that is your possibility.  But applying *your* views to myriad other Human Beings is not taking their individual beliefs and behaviours into account. You do not know what they have experienced, what their interactions with Christians have been, how they were treated.  You being nice to another person for some hours every so often may not be enough to counter years of being harassed or called "Christ-killer" or other epithets or the knowledge that one's ancestors were murdered by those who also called themselves Christian.  

Quote
Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?

Yes, I know of that movie as well as some of the real Oskar Schindler.  I also know of the Garden of the Righteous and the "Righteous among the Nations" at Yad Vashem in Israel.  These are persons who are recognized by Jews as those who helped. 
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/temp_righteous/temp_index_recently_honored.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/righteous.html

Some died to help Jewish people.  The actions of one person helps and those of another harm.  They don't somehow "cancel" each other.  The memories, the knowledge, the wounds or hope are still part of a person's life.
Maybe some good examples would help "convince" but maybe not. 

Quote
Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 

But will you also see each person that you seek to convince/convert as just as much of a human being as you are?  And, I'm not trying to be difficult here, this is a serious question to get some thought:  Why do you want to convince them?  I'm not being argumentative.  Sometimes people do things that they may not have a good answer to the "why".  Why did you become a muslim? You said you left your early upbringing at 17.  Why?  Why did you then become Christian?  Were you rejecting one thing or drawn to something else?  Why do you want others be be Christian?  To have more in your group?  Because you know what's best?   Understanding the reasons behind actions can be very helpful.

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Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now Wink. I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard".

<insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow>  Wink  Being an "argumentative blow-hard" is not *reasoned* though.  It would seem that you perhaps made an ummm assumption based on my not agreeing with you.   It can be quite reasoned to not accept another persons opinions and unsupported assertions without question.

 Smiley  That part of my sig is a handle that I got from the name generator of the "Unitarian Jihad" a good while ago.  This is a humourous idea, in which such names as "Broadsword of Warm Humanitarianism" and "Neutron Bomb of Courteous Debate" and "Trebuchet of Compassion" are taken by "followers". See here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

Due to my interest in Japan as well as my habit of logic and support of points, I found the "handle" that came up for me fitting, shall we say.  Grin (I'm not a Vulcan.  I just play one on the 'Net.)

Quote
I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).

A good passage to be sure as long as "reasoning together" is not taken to be automatic agreement or unchalleged assertions.

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« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2007, 01:42:42 PM »

Now the Anti-Defamation League is offering their $.02.  Notice how the article refers to Bishop Jessep of the Ukranian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.  I wonder if the ADL will provide statistics about how many Jews were insulted or lynched because some Orthodox got worked up on Great and Holy Friday and took it out on them. 

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/5069_31.htm

ADL Urges Orthodox Christian Churches To Excise Anti-Semitism From Liturgy


New York, NY, June 6, 2007 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is urging the world's Orthodox Christian leaders to support a Christian proposal to excise ancient anti-Semitic passages from their liturgy.

ADL cited a declaration by an independent group of Orthodox Christian priests and intellectuals who are calling for their churches to reject centuries-old negative theological positions toward Jews and Judaism, including positions on the State of Israel.  The group represents five different Orthodox churches, including Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Georgian and Ecumenical Orthodox Churches. Some signed the declaration in defiance of their church leadership, according to news reports.

"We call on Orthodox Christian leaders to begin the process now to remove anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "This effort is long overdue.  Untold numbers of Jews have suffered throughout the centuries, and today, in some countries where these churches are prominent, Jews are confronted by growing anti-Semitism, because of the failure to address this."

Eric J. Greenberg, ADL Associate Director of Interfaith Affairs, noted that some Orthodox liturgy still refer to Jews as Christ-killers, and that some Easter services include calls for revenge against Jews. He noted that the Roman Catholic Church and several Protestant churches have removed anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy, and that the Vatican repudiated the deicide charge against the Jewish people in 1965.

"We commend the courageous priests and academics who seek to rid their churches of the poison of anti-Semitism," Greenberg said. "Support of this declaration by church leaders would help build a more positive interfaith dialogue between Orthodox Christians and Jews, and help increase religious respect around the world."

Bishop Paul Peter Jesep, U.S. Director of Public Affairs for the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Diaspora, said he supports the priests' campaign as essential to the future of the Orthodox Church.

"The Church has not done enough to address anti-Semitism," Jesep said, speaking in his individual capacity. "The Liturgy must be modified so that it is brought closer to the teachings of Christ."

The ten-page declaration endorses the eternal connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel, and calls for the repudiation of replacement theology, which erroneously contends that God's covenant with the Jewish people is not eternal. "It is time that we called anti-Semitism a grave sin against God and man," the declaration said. 




The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry
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« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2007, 03:45:48 PM »

^^ scary stuff in that article there.. Roll Eyes  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...
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« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2007, 06:40:06 PM »

As if it wouldn't be more important to protest the genocide in Darfur.... ?  One would think that a heroic, and logical result from ethnicities/races that have been brutally persecuted in the past would be to stick up for, protest, and place emphasis on present genocide and brutality.

Unfortunately, for the ADL it's more important to relive the past than to work in the present in order to better the future ...
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« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2007, 06:43:05 PM »

^^ scary stuff in that article there.. Roll Eyes  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...

Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.
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« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2007, 08:34:27 PM »

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Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.

Obviously not.... Grin Maybe someone should tell the ADL that, or would that be considered a hate crime?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2011, 10:00:57 AM »

 Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

 It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.
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« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2011, 09:13:56 PM »

Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also?

Not a bad idea, especially with regard to the Koran (though the Talmud is pretty bad too), it might help to smooth out some things in the middle east.
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« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2011, 09:38:36 PM »

I'm Jewish, about to join the Orthodox Church and I don't have any problem with "antisemitic" imagery, canons, etc One reason I felt drawn to the OC is because it does not change to fit the whims or PCness of the times.

Jews went after the RCC at Vatican II to change their liturgy to suit their wishes. What I'd like to know is when Orthodox Jews (what I was raised, btw) will change the Talmudic writings to remove anti-Gentile and anti-Christian references. My guess? When pigs fly.
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« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2011, 10:37:39 AM »

Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

 It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.

I don't see any evidence of "Political Correctness" in the canonical Orthodox Churches.  This topic dates back to 2007 and looking back I do not see any evidence of canonical Orthodox Church leaders being involved.
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« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2011, 12:13:31 PM »

Besides, there are no real anti-semitic elements in Orthodox liturgy.
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« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2011, 12:14:52 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
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« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2011, 12:24:06 PM »

can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services
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« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2011, 01:06:02 PM »

can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services


Although written by a traditional Roman Catholic before Vatican II, I find this book to be unsurpassed when it comes to explaining WHY so many Jews and organized Jewish groups try to change each Christian church, one by one, to suit their beliefs. Once you have read this book, you won't have any more question as to the "why" of all this.

As I said, its by a RC priest but it answers everything. "The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr Denis Fahey C.Ss. P.,  c 1953, available inexpensively from http://store.catholicism.org/the-kingship-of-christ-and-the-conversion-of-the-jewish-nation.html  or http://www.omnicbc.com  Just do a search for the title or the author.
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« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2011, 01:31:11 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  Grin) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.
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« Reply #106 on: August 08, 2011, 01:35:23 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  Grin) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.

I don't recall that event being in the liturgical service for St. Ambrose.
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« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
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« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2013, 04:01:05 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.

I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.
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« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2013, 12:56:46 AM »

Here's an older article by a Russian Orthodox priest of Jewish descent on the question of Judaism and the Russian Orthodox Church

It might prove interesting and informative: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html
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« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2013, 10:04:36 AM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink

"may HIS blood be on us and our children".  Was that ever said at the Crucifiction? 
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« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2013, 10:06:12 AM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
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« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2013, 11:50:05 AM »

I hope the Orthodox Church does not give into this PC nonsense.  Saying no to ADL and other like minded groups is not anti-Semitic in the least, its about keeping one's religious integrity.

And seriously, as someone above mentioned, Christians should call on Jews to remove all the anti-Gentile/anti-Christian venom and vitriol found in the Talmud.  Not to mention all the horrific things the Talmud says about Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Let's see how the ADL and co would react then.
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« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2013, 02:29:12 PM »

As one who has struggled with some of the hymnography that can be perceived as anti-Semitic (especially during the service of the Twelve Passion Gospels), here is something that may be of interest from Archpriest Valerian Krechetov, a priest in Russia:

"The divine services of Holy Week call on one to have compassion and sympathy for the Savior.

On the first three days one is supposed to reread all four Gospels as a reminder that the Lord created us, but that we crucified Him by our sins. And although this appears to be addressed to the Jews of that time, it relates to everyone who has crucified Christ by his sins."

Source: http://www.pravmir.com/how-should-we-spend-holy-week/
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« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
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« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated

 Huh
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« Reply #116 on: April 30, 2013, 08:13:00 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

The weren't against Jewish people, either.
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« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2013, 08:15:34 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated

 Huh

Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.
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« Reply #118 on: May 01, 2013, 11:49:01 AM »

Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.

Does it singal that in this case?
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« Reply #119 on: May 01, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?
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« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2013, 12:11:58 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
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« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2013, 01:20:36 PM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
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« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2013, 02:16:58 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.
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« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2013, 02:32:11 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.


But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
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« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2013, 02:36:09 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.


But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

I don't look at it with hindsight but humility, seeking rather to be in tune with the mind of Church.
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« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2013, 02:45:26 PM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2013, 03:01:06 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
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« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2013, 03:04:47 PM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?

Nothing.
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« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2013, 03:13:36 PM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?

Nothing.

Amen
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« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2013, 03:25:36 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.

I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.


If you are going to reresurrect a thread from 2007 the most awesome way to do it is to offer a reply including content from 2003.

Well done. Seriously, I hope to read your essay later.
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« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2013, 03:57:36 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
I don't really. care really one way or the other. The impact these relatively obscure liturgical texts have on how people think about Jews is probably zero anyways. 
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2013, 04:03:42 PM »


Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples.  

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews.  
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« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2013, 05:05:40 PM »

Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 

So smart and witty....
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« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2013, 05:20:29 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
Or not.  Maybe you don't understand how they worked.  It's ok and nothing a little research can't correct.

Orthodoxy is as antisemitic as women's volleyball.  Just because something doesn't agree or support doesn't mean it's anti-Jewish and if it does, what does that say about Judaism in regard to Christianity?  

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« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2013, 10:16:09 PM »

Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink
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