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Author Topic: Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 21256 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2007, 03:08:56 PM »

If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2007, 03:09:54 PM »

using a cross or electric chair. Grin
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2007, 11:02:02 AM »

"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2007, 03:20:33 PM »

If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.

Keep in mind that you and I are going to be judged by God just like all other people including the Jews.

I pray that the lord does'nt say "well tuff" to you and I after we finish explaining and pleading to him for forgiveness for all of our horrible sins.

You are a useless sinner and I am the chief of all sinners.

May God help us.

Remember to love your enemies. This is unconditional.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2007, 11:07:20 PM »

Interesting that criticism of Jews brings such righteousness indignation.  God help us when Anti-Christ takes over- of course He will if we follow Christ and not the PC agenda.
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2007, 11:38:59 PM »

"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.

The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.
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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2007, 02:12:07 AM »

   If the Orthodox Church, or any religious group or organization, or ANY group or organization, for that matter, were to "remove" parts of their services, rituals, constitutions, etc., etc., etc., at the behest of those who complain about different things for one reason or another, then we might as well completely delete everything-because SOMEONE will complain about it at all at some point! C'mon, now, lets try to make EVERYBODY happy!
   The priests calling for this might be "dissident," but undoubtedly not "uncanonical"-the "uncanonical" would not be for deleting these references (the "uncanonical"-a term which really means absolutely NOTHING, most often refer to the much dreaded "Old Calendarist" types, who, horror of horrors, prefer traditionalism over modernism and minimalism in worship and Church life); the "dissidents" are those, usually, who feel that Orthodoxy is too old fashioned, and that it needs to get in line with Roman Catholicism, or better yet, Protestantism, so it can be "in touch with the times." Maybe we could all just stay home and watch Mass on tv . . . a guitar mass, too, no doubt-oops, no, that is probably out of date-how about an Internet Mass? We could all receive virtual communion, then afterwards, we could all blog about the uplifting spiritual experience . . .   
   The references in the Services that some have deemed "anti-semitic" are part of the Orthodox tradition-of belief, of history, of the Services . . . in short, diluting or deleting would change much more than just the Services in question.
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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2007, 11:30:49 AM »

This is a red herring tactic by a group of satanists wanting to destroy the faith from within.
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2007, 11:53:04 AM »

Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2007, 01:48:48 PM »

Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
Sorry about the tone and I apologize for that but the issue is a red herring. Should not clergy know that?  In an earlier post I noted that criticism of any form of Christian faith that sounds "mean" gets more scrutiny than the nightmarish cultures that exist within other faiths. For example honor killings, sex selective abortions, female infanticide etc. and believe me these abominations are the "fruits" of some other "faiths." When one notices the apostates within the Episcopalian church any Christian should see the perils of satanic influence. For example, the Episcopalian "bishop" J Shelby Spong wrote a book entitled: "Why Christianity must change or die" and he acknowledges if his "reforms" fail and the faith "die" so be it. I wonder if some "enlightened" individual will write: "Why Orthodoxy must change or die?" "Test the spirits; Test all things, hold fast what is good and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2007, 10:26:27 AM »

The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.

We are to love our enemies.

If then we really do that (without conditions) what then is an "enemy"?
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2007, 01:25:58 PM »

Does anyone consider that a coterie of individuals have found a "hot issue" within the Divine Liturgy to upset our ability to worship according to our saviour's command: " God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24)? Mankind crucified Jesus Christ and any hierarch who used any aspect of the Holy Gospel to instigate a progrom against the Jews or anyone else failed to minister to what was entrusted. If it was not "anti-semitism" in the liturgy it would be some other "hot topic" that we need to "repent" of in order to conform to the emerging false world religion.
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2007, 01:47:56 PM »

The moslems are not our enemy either - they are simply hornets that are being stirred up against Christian values.  The dangerous enemy is the one within i.e. the ecumenists that would sell out our faith to appease secular interests.  The current attack on Jerusalem is an example - But by the Grace of God, these robber bishops will not succeed.  I think the Phanar will end up with some egg on its ecumenistic visage.

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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2007, 01:56:46 PM »

A verse that the OSB (at least) notes should never be used to attack Jews or Judaism.  WE are the children upon whom the blood shines bright.

More like the Pharisee/Jews using a typical tactic called "Shabbos Goy" to kill Jesus. You know Modern Day Jews using none Jews at the Cash Register or the front desk to prevent customer from being scared off. 
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2007, 01:59:46 PM »

Your views are clearly motivated by racism and bigotry, and I am astonished that you are allowed to continue disseminating them here.


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« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2007, 03:21:34 PM »


 Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict. This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends, but when I look at how they're using the Muslims to attack Palestinian Christians, I have to wonder. The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth. And this is really what we're talking about here. Religious teachings. We as Orthodox Christians are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to any teaching that goes against the Church and her teachings. And this, my brothers and sisters, includes Judaism.

 Yes, we are to love all people, but does this mean that in loving someone, we are to change part of our religion to placate them because they are offended? NO! The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it. That's why the burden is on US to explain the Truth to the world. It is a great sin that Christians have used the Jews as scapegoats for many of the worlds ills to justify brutality and bloodshed against them, but you better understand that if we should start re-writing or omitting prayers we don't understand or like, we very soon will find ourselves outside of the Church (and this most definately includes the prayers of the Saints!) where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this article sounds like more Zionist tacticts to undermine Christianity. I would be most interested in hearing from those priests, rather than reading snippits of their comments in a Zionist Israeli newspaper. After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....


 Gabriel

 
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« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2007, 04:53:56 PM »

Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not

Meaning no disrespect....

*Probably*?!?  How was any Jewish person who is alive today in any way involved in a real historical incident that is nearly 2000 years in the past?  No one alive todays voice or hands were involved in the trial or driving the nails.  How is it "probably not" may one ask?

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BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict.

By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity, any person who made the claim would have been held to be blaspheming.  Trying to understand this idea or belief from an adherants viewpoint can be helpful.

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This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends

There is no "Jews" as "our friends" or as "enemies"; there are millions of individual persons, people who are just as Human as you or I.  They are not a monolithic bloc with one behaviour or view anymore then with any other subset of Humanity.

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The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth.

If they did not belief that they had Truth, they would not be practicing Jews, one might suspect.  And considering the violence and slaughter and cruelty that has at times in history been visited on Human Beings because they were Jewish by other people who were Christian, one might try to look at it from that viewpoint.  Why should they welcome that which has harmed their people in the centuries past?

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The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it.

Just telling another person that one has The Truth does not mean that they will accept that without question or hesitation. Why should they? When you were Muslim if a Christian came to you and said baldly "We have the Truth and you don't. Your religion is false."  How would you have reacted?   How do you show someone who does not belong to your religious group the Truth if previous claimants treated their ancestors brutally?

 
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After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....

It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?  How will one convince anyone else?  How would one react if they did not accept your "Truth" instantly?  How do you react when treated in such a way?  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is something to remember.  Try to understand other people as just as Human as oneself.

For the record, I am not nor have I ever been Jewish. 

Respectfully,

Ebor

 
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« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2007, 06:23:23 PM »

Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It was Adam (through Eve) that sin came into the world. Jesus the Christ is the only way to salvation from our sins. The sins we have are rooted in the sins of Adam. Without Adams sins then we come to the world without original sin and are thus at a point in our lives sinless like God.

We know that we all come to the world with the original sin (of Adam). We never experience any moment of tome on the earth without the shackle of sin unitl we are emersed in Christ flesh and blood which heals all sin and removes the bond of Adam.

The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law. The Law was given to give sin its name and character so that it can be understood and effectively removed; not by the Law but by grace and mercy in the salvation of Christ.

The fact that the Jews of the Christs era were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.

We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do". Rest assure that those we know today as Jews are still ignorant of the Truth (Christ is the Truth). The Truth that came to all people from Jewish roots.

This is a free choice which we all have. We can deny or accept.

Muslim are also worthy of mercy.

Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?

He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.

Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.

This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2007, 01:44:38 AM »

Meaning no disrespect....
 

 None taken, Ebor.  Cheesy I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though. You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that. If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions. The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  Kiss  Cheesy

Gabriel 

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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2007, 01:47:30 AM »

"It is time for us to recognize the charge of anti-Semitism for what it often is: a political weapon intended to silence critics of liberalism."  -  Rabbi Daniel Lapin

"Unfounded charges of anti-Jewish sentiments not only malign the innocent. They also create a ‘boy who cried wolf’ syndrome, in that they may well render society insensitive to real bigotry when it does come along..."  -  Rabbi Mayer Schiller

It seems even Jews are sick of all these outcries about anti-Semitism where none is to be found, for it may create a, as Rabbi Mayer Schiller said, "'boy who cried wolf’ syndrome" at the very least.
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2007, 09:14:26 AM »

Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

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The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law.

?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

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The fact that the Jews of the Christs era

Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

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were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ

I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

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then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.

Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

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We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do".

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.   Undecided

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Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?

 Huh  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

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He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.

So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

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Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.

As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

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This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.

Indeed and on that we can agree.  Smiley

With Respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2007, 09:22:55 AM »

None taken, Ebor.  Cheesy I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though.

If you could explain how I may have misunderstood some of what you wrote, perhaps another thread can be started to go over things, since it is not necessarily part of the OP.

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You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that.

Oh I don't know about that... Some of the threads on this forum have gone somewhat that way.  Wink  Historical accuracy in important and treating other people as Human Beings is hardly "sensitivity  training" but a commandment of Our Lord.

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If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions.

Perhaps a different thread would be better since many other people also read these threads including lurkers and they might be interested.  Smiley

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The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  Kiss  Cheesy

It is not my place to comment on that one way or the other.  I'm not EO, so I "don't have a dog in that hunt" as the saying goes.  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.

With Respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2007, 12:08:14 PM »

For me at least, this discussion has been begging the following question(s) for quite some while. Where do we draw the lines between Judiasm/Jews and Zionsm? Within this, where do we draw the line between legitimate anti-semetism, as opposed to our self-preservation from something that is evil or a wolf in sheeps' clothing?

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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2007, 01:26:01 PM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2007, 02:12:30 PM »

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.   Undecided

 Huh  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

Indeed and on that we can agree.  Smiley

With Respect,

Ebor

I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative. You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.

You missed my point by leagues.

Maybe I write poorly.

I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.

Without this you can not follow anything else I stated.

The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.

I will stop here since the main point of my post is hinged on a very important understanding of why we are Christians in the first place. This may not be that easy to explain.

I will leave with this:

Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.

Killing and torturing Jews, enslaving Ethiopians (or Africans as we are commonly known today) or nay other people and all other "wilding out" that has permeated the glode by people who claim Christ are really people who worship the world NOT Christ. These people and those that agree with them would never put there wordly love at jeopardy for Christ sake. People like this serve themselves. The have a facade of faith without the action. They do ot obey God.

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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2007, 02:48:08 PM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2007, 02:54:35 PM »

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2007, 03:59:50 PM »

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org

You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
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« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2007, 12:02:42 AM »

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
...
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?

One way of understanding it is that it is an attempt by some Protestants to finally look for tradition after scorning it for so long. For those it has often been a 'halfway house' to Orthodoxy (like the Old Catholic movement, etc.) That was true in my case, as also for a few of my friends (one Antiochian priest was also Jews for Jesus.) Otherwise, there is some idea of competition - mostly because they find it difficult that Orthodoxy exists (and, not claiming to be a 'Gentile church'.) The Messianic/Hebraist community was overjoyed by the article that started this thread - that's how I found out about it myself (triumphal FWD of the article several times from Messianic friends and family.)

As for Zionism in American Christianity - that began with those sects who embraced Dispensationalist theology. It has become more mainstream due to televangelism and political association through the Evangelical wing of the Republican party.

My parents are Evangelical Republicans - they were pretty much apolitical before the 1970s (my father's folk being un-Reconstructed, my mother's folk considering politics the realm of the Evil One and thus not proper for Plain Folk.) During that decade there was a change - the Dispensationalist teaching, and the 1967 war brought a fervent expectation of rapture, and of the need to return Jewish people to Israel to bring about the Second Coming. Thus, many Evangelicals helped Reagan get elected, made Pro-Life part of the GOP plank, etc. Typically, the GOP before the Evangelicals joined was very Orientalist due to corporate connections in the oil industry. There still is some internal stress in the GOP due to this tension between 'Evangelical' and 'Old Republican'. There are also several other wings to the GOP (as in the Democrat party) that don't hold the issue in much importance at all. Often loyalty to the party is more important than personal conviction, family tradition, or other concerns. (Me, I'm outside of all that.)
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« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2007, 12:10:09 AM »

 Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you. Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.
 
To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

 By our virtue of being Christians, Ebor, we are anti-Judaic. That is, we are against the Judaic theology. Christianity and Judaism do indeed share a common thread, but this in no way implies that we can agree with one another on points of theology. The two are and always will be mutually exclusive. Likewise, by virtue of being Christians, we are pro-Jew (again, I am using Aristibule's terminology). We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with. And I might add that the Jewish people are made in the same image and likeness of God as a Christian. And BTW, the word 'anti-semitic' is a Zionist word concocted by the Zionist facists to help them in their efforts to continuously displace and subjugate the Palestinians, who are ALSO semitic people (since you have a keen interest in historical accuracy).

 I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor? I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.

 
By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity,
Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.
 
It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?

 It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew. What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death. I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason, but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 

 
  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.

  I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.

 sincerely Cheesy  


  
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« Reply #75 on: May 26, 2007, 11:53:50 AM »

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org

 It's absolutely disgusting to hear and see this kind of rubbish being propagated as Christianity! But then again, what do you expect from 'pastor' Hagee-berg?!

You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?

 There's no question that it is. AIPAC (American Israel Political Action Committee) is one of THE most powerful and influential of all the lobbies.
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« Reply #76 on: May 26, 2007, 12:43:28 PM »

I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative.

I am asking for clarification of what you are trying to say and what you mean by "responsible".  How is asking questions "argumentative" please?

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You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.

I was looking at specific things that you wrote and asking how you knew some things that you asserted.  "Concocted"  My apologies, but I was trying to look at seperate points and claims.

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You missed my point by leagues.

Could you please state the point you were trying to say in other words?  I am trying to understand what you mean. 

Quote
I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.

By the Fall of Adam and Eve all of humankind are subject to sin and evil and death. By disobedience to God all things are 'broken'.  The actions of 2 resulted in this being part of human behaviour through the decendents.

But you in 2007 did not do anything to cause an ancestor 1000 years ago to sin, you are not "responsible" for his/her deeds.  That is what I am trying to get across with what the meaning of "responsible" is and what you meant when you used the word.

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The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.

Indeed, this is what is taught by Christianity and I understand, follow and believe it.  Perhaps you do not understand some of what I am writing... My apologies if I am unclear to your reading. 

Quote
Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.

Pardon me, but you seem to be saying that noone who belonged to the EO part of Christendom was ever guilty of brutality or cruelty or oppression.  The treatment of the Bulgars under the reign of Basil II is not pretty reading.  There are many cases of pogroms against Jewish persons in Russia.  The Emperors and Empresses of Constantinople in many cases were hardly pacifists or forgiving in their dealings with others who also wanted power.  If such things were not included in the history, then it is not telling the truth, but in fact, such incidents and persons *are* in the history.

All of humanity is given to sins of various kinds. Perhaps we agree on more things then you seem to think...

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2007, 01:17:40 PM »

 
 Not all Jewish folks are for the secular-liberal state of Israel...

 www.nkusa.org


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« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2007, 01:32:50 PM »

Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you.

It is interesting that asking questions for clarification and pointing out that other people have their own view points and ideas on things is called "argumentative".  One wonders if the mere fact of not accepting some unsupported assertions and opinions is counted as "arguing". However, one might prefer to address the subject points and not any possible personal character flaws.  Smiley

Quote
Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.
 
 We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with.

"Compelled"? We have been created with Free Will and while we have the commandments of Jesus "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are free to not follow them if we so choose.  God does not force us to do things, but we may submit to His words.


and the actual ways that such love is shown and acted upon are quite important, I submit.  Just to clarify your other point in that paragraph, I am quite clear that the Semitic peoples include other groups besides those who are Jewish in ethnicity. 

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I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor?

Indeed, it says that one crowd of people in one city said that.  Should the words of one small portion of an ethnic or religious group then pertain to *all* people who belong to it both at that time and in the future generations unborn?  Would one like that applied to ones own faith, Church, ethnic group etc?  And yet such a verse has in the past been used to, as you wrote, "justify violence against" Jewish people.

I am not, btw, "worked up" just because I have other ideas to submit for consideration. Smiley

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I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.

Indeed.

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 Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.

Excuse me, but there is a vast difference between a religious body that has been around for millenia and (according to their own and Christian beliefs) were directed by God and given his Word and Scriptures)  and a group such as the KKK. (and I am aware of both the early years of the KKK under Nathan Bedford Forrest and the later horrors that occurred).

If one follows only the Old Testament, then there is no place for any human to claim to be the Son of God.  Believing Jews do not accept the New Testament.  Judaism is different from Christianity.  You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it. 

It can be helpful to try and think of how other people that one may disagree with might have the same kind of motives and reasons for what they do.   

Quote
It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew.

May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.

Quote
What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death.

I have read of such cases as well as how converts to Christianity or Christians themselves are sometimes treated in muslim countries.  It is a very sorry thing.

Quote
I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason

But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would. They would believe that He was just a man who died.

Quote
but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 

Indeed, and that gets back to the *how* and *what* of such teaching.  And it's hard to convince someone after many centuries of historical violence. 
 
Quote
 I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.

Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title. Nor am I "hyper-sensitive" to the issue, unless the root issue is not understanding that people who do not agree with oneself or are like ones own group/faith are still Human Beings whom God created and made in His image and should be treated as we ourselves would want to be treated. (Golden Rule and all that,  Smiley )

Some of the posts would seem to be asserting that present day people who are Jewish are somehow "responsible" for Our Lord's Crucifixion.  Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.

Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?  Or should their view be looked at seriously?

How do you know that I do no "understand the teachings of Orthodoxy" based on my seeking clarification of individual's posts and considering the things that they have written about other members of the Human race?  I respectfully submit that you may be making an assumption.

With Respect,

Ebor




  
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2007, 12:11:45 AM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

Thank you for taking the time!
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« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2007, 01:32:26 AM »

 
 You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it.
Not I, but Holy Scripture. 

  
May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.
No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. Cheesy

But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would.
True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.
 
 
Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title.
That's what I was referring to.

Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.
I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.
 
Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?

 Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here). I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is. And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

 I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  Wink

 Gabriel





  

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« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2007, 11:11:31 AM »

No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. Cheesy

So you are familiar with the idea of coming to believe the tenets of a religion.  May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?  You did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Second Person of the Trinity was True when you were a muslim. 

Quote
True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.

For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.

Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.

Quote
I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.

A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".   How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"? 

Empathy to other human beings and trying to understand that they often have similar feelings and thought processes as oneself can be a very helpful thing to remember. 

Quote
Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here).

And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?

Quote
I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is.

Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie.   

And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies. 

Quote
And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

 I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  Wink

There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  Wink)  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  Cheesy  But then I've been here quite a while.

Ebor

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« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2007, 03:02:54 AM »

May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?

 I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.
 
For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.

 Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. Cheesy

Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.

The vast majority of Muslims believe this way, but not all. And the two major factions of Muslims, the Sunni and Shi'a, are almost so different today so as not to recognize the view similarities they share. 'Sunni's' get their name from 'sunna', the sayings (hadith) and behaviors of Muhammad, while 'Shi'a' get their name from "Shi'at 'Ali"- the 'party of 'Ali'. They believe that Muhammad designated 'Ali as the next successor, while the majority did not. I was part of minority known for their rejection of all hadith unless it could be varified by the Qur'an (sounds like a Protestant to me Wink), though I had countless friends from both Sunni and Shi'a (and the mystical sect known as Sufi's). But I've digressed...You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.

A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".   How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"?

 Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 
 
And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?

 Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?

Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie.

 Well, unfortunately, there will always be these types of examples. And I would say out-right lies. I've heard of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', but know very little about them to comment.   

And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies.

Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 

There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  Wink)  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  Cheesy  But then I've been here quite a while.

Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now Wink. I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard". I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).

 Respectfully,

 Gabriel
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« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2007, 03:13:13 AM »

 
 I hope that didn't come off as being trite Wink
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« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2007, 03:47:15 AM »

Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes. Roll Eyes

If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.
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« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2007, 04:18:38 AM »

If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.

 Done. Thanks PtA Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2007, 02:34:53 PM »

I think what Paul says in the book of Romans sums up the Orthodox position:

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:28-29 ESV)

The religion is God's enemy, but God is faithful to who He called, even when they fall into apostasy; just like when you or I sin, God is faithful, and He leaves the 99 to go and find the 1. They still have the honor in being the first-called people of God's covenants with mankind.

Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Rom 11:12)

(By the way, I am half Jewish, so I have a right to be biased here.)
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« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2007, 05:10:03 PM »

Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.

My mom (God bless her soul) always said that "you must know the words you use like you know your name" since the words you use in front of others help to represent who you are and what you are to yourself.

God bless
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2007, 11:11:59 PM »

Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.

 Amdetsion,

 My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

 Gabriel
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« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2007, 11:47:32 PM »

Amdetsion,

 My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

 Gabriel

I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)
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