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Author Topic: Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 21171 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romaios
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2013, 10:39:29 PM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?

What would you want them for? The edited version only lacks some stanzas, nothing new was added, nothing was re-written.

Liturgically informed people prefer the older (complete) version, because it has as many stanzas as there are verses in Psalm 118. It is also metrically better adapted to the music. People who use the "short" one completely omit the Psalm verses, which are actually much older and a constitutive part of all funeral office.

One "progressive" Romanian bishop even suggested dropping the Enkomia altogether, for the sake of "sobriety" and since it is the newest addition (apparently originating on the Holy Mountain) to the office of Great Saturday. That would be an outrage indeed, since people are so fond of it and everybody joins in when it is sung. 
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« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2013, 08:05:58 AM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
No. The changes aren't very consistent  or even noticeable. Just some verses dropped or "Jews" replaced by "Judas".
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« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2013, 08:41:12 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:41:54 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2013, 08:49:05 AM »

Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?
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« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2013, 09:06:03 AM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?
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« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2013, 09:11:28 AM »

Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?

A story with all the bad-guys' bits edited out has no dramatic impact.

Can you imagine Purim without shouts of joy for Haman getting hanged? 
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« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2013, 09:24:07 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
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« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.
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« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2013, 09:30:45 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

You're taking your pick from the shovels in calling Michal a Pole. I know plenty of Belarussians who were born or grew up in Poland, who, in the Soviet era, would tolerate being called Russian, but God help you if you called them Polish.
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« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2013, 09:31:42 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

And self-identification is your security blanket.
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« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2013, 09:32:08 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

He may be Polish, but he's still not a Pole.
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« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2013, 09:33:12 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
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« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2013, 09:39:48 AM »

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

No need to imagine. In colloquial Finnish  "jenkki" refers to all Americans irregardless of anything. You're all Yankees to me. Kiss
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« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2013, 09:44:20 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  Shocked
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« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2013, 09:45:23 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
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« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2013, 09:47:57 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

 I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.
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« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2013, 09:50:18 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

 I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.

Very unconvincing to this Large Bald Kid.
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« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2013, 09:50:35 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  Shocked

 That was his point.  Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2013, 01:37:21 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish.  

It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive. Oh wait, you self identify as "Gabriel the Celt" so you should get it.
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« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2013, 01:43:47 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive.

It would be more interesting were the contributor to try and pull that stunt with a Glaswegian. A 'Glasgow kiss' would likely follow. Very direct and very painful.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2013, 03:28:47 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
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« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2013, 05:50:41 PM »

..., you self identify as "Gabriel the Celt" so you should get it.

 Look who just caught up.  I think I established that several posts back.  Wink
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« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2013, 06:40:56 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?

I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
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« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2013, 07:08:00 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?

I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
I thought that was only jure uxoris. I'm familiar with that situation.
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« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2013, 11:04:51 PM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
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« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2013, 12:56:31 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh
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« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2013, 01:03:53 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh

Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.
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« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2013, 06:32:42 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh

Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.

Quackers.......!!!
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« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2013, 03:33:38 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
It is not so much a matter of logic, but more a matter of differing definitions on who is Polish, or who is Jewish, etc.
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« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2013, 05:04:33 AM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?

No, someone in the early middle ages. I can't seem to remember his name, though.
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« Reply #165 on: May 08, 2013, 09:00:50 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.
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« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2013, 02:09:07 PM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.

How is ethnicity determined?
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« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2013, 02:13:20 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
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« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2013, 02:30:37 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 
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« Reply #169 on: May 08, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 

Do not tell me what should I be.
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« Reply #170 on: May 08, 2013, 02:51:09 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 

Do not tell me what should I be.

 I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference? 
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« Reply #171 on: May 08, 2013, 02:57:09 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations. You parents and grandparents could be from China,and have some history in China, but they are white Russians who moved to northern China. Or going way back, one member could be Chinese, and another member was black,  but the others were Russians.
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« Reply #172 on: May 08, 2013, 02:58:10 PM »

I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  
Well then, what is the correct definition of ethnicity?
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« Reply #173 on: May 08, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks.  

Do not tell me what should I be.

 I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference?  

If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).

This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations.

Did I say it isn't?
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« Reply #174 on: May 08, 2013, 03:06:20 PM »


If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).


You're still talking about culture here. Ethnicity has nothing to do with upbringing whatsoever. For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
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« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2013, 03:09:20 PM »

For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.
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« Reply #176 on: May 08, 2013, 03:14:52 PM »

For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.

Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
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« Reply #177 on: May 08, 2013, 03:19:50 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
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« Reply #178 on: May 08, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.

Here are mine.

Ethnicity: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.   

Culture: A way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.

Citizen: A native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection ( distinguished from alien ).

Nation: Nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.

Sources in headings.
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« Reply #179 on: May 08, 2013, 03:34:24 PM »

I was watching Andrew Zimmern's culinary show yesterday.  He was down in Jamaica.  One of the folks he showcased was an ethnic Chinese family living there.  If you were to close your eyes, listening to them talk you wouldn't know they were ethnic Chinese.  But they were showcasing how they blended ethnic Chinese culture with the surrounding Jamaican culture.  And every'ting was irie, mon.  Smiley
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