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Author Topic: Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 21407 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 21, 2007, 03:21:12 PM »

I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic.  And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography.  The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident."  Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical?  See the article at:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152838943&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 04:12:12 PM »

I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic.  And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography.
I have seen in the Matins Canons of Sunday mornings some hymns that could be interpreted as anti-Semitic, which my parish canonarch is very careful to recognize--he usually skips these.  I can understand this mentality that we certainly don't want to drive away potential converts from Judaism by appearing to continue to blame them for killing the Christ, as if they even know who Jesus is and could be held complicit in His murder.  The Russian pogroms have also shown what can happen when the masses are inspired by this hymnography to acts of anti-Semitic violence, not that the hymns were themselves to blame.  However, I also have a very deep reverence for our hymnographic traditions and am extremely hesitant to even consider removing any of our hymns for the sake of making our liturgy more amenable to the ever-fickle standards of the current day.  (Can you say "politically correct"?)

Why do our hymns communicate a semblance of anti-Semitism?  What were the Fathers thinking when they condoned and even preached such "anti-Semitism"?  Do we have the right, or even the sobriety to preach that the Holy Fathers were misguided?  (This certainly reeks of great hubris that we would call ourselves more enlightened than they, not to mention how this attitude thoroughly undermines the Patristic foundations of our faith.)  What can we apply of their preaching, teaching, and liturgizing to the present day?

Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.

Quote
The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident."  Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical?
I don't think this means that they are non-canonical yet.  Rather, I think this merely means that they are acting in disobedience to their ruling bishops.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 04:18:51 PM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 04:33:23 PM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink

That canon makes perfect historical sense in that medicine and religion were intimately linked at that time, and as such, you would not want someone to be given a good dose of Judaism (i.e. anti Christian positions) when they went to get something healed. I can see why some read into it something that is not there but that is the fault of people that pick around looking for something to get excited about, much like the people who pick around in the Babylonian Talmud to find excitable things there.
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 05:03:18 PM »

Is it anti-semetism when we declare historical truths?  I mean, how far can our PC culture go?  So the Jews no longer were involved for putting Christ on the Cross? I mean, we can do have this understanding that it is all of us who put Christ on the Cross...

But my basic question is, how far do we go to scew history?  We should be missionizing to people, but history is history (most of the time  Wink

Curious to get people's opinions on this...
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2007, 05:05:19 PM »

Anastasios

Well I guess that's true. Though what comes to mind if that's true is, were there also canons saying that Christians couldn't go to doctors who were part of other religious persuasions, or were the Jews the only perceived problem area? I personally don't think that the Church was as anti-semitic as people like Elaine Pagels argue, but there did seem to be some things said and done that should be grappled with.

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Is it anti-semetism when we declare historical truths?  I mean, how far can our PC culture go?  So the Jews no longer were involved for putting Christ on the Cross? I mean, we can do have this understanding that it is all of us who put Christ on the Cross... But my basic question is, how far do we go to scew history?  We should be missionizing to people, but history is history (most of the time   )  Curious to get people's opinions on this...

My opinion probably is least relevant here, being a non-believer, but fwiw, I think many people (including some glorified Orthodox saints in recent memory) go way beyond history. I'm all about giving historical facts, and thoughts about history, even if those facts or thoughts are unpopular. But according to the Gospels, Jesus asked God to forgive those who were crucifying him, and said they didn't understand what they were doing. So, should an entire people be blamed two thousand years later, when Jesus asked God to forgive those who actually had a hand in the murdering? Are the sons and daughters punished for the sins of the Father? I'm not saying that this applys to you directly, but I have read some things which were pretty extreme, and took the "all Jews are cursed/in a conspiracy against Christians/an evil sub-culture" approach.
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 05:07:53 PM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink

Well, when the Jews started out by killing the person we believe to be God, that kind of puts a damper on relations. I know it's the new PC thing to be pro-Jewish since WWII and all...but truthfully they're a small and irrelevant minority today; indifference towards them and their plight would be the most reasonable course of action for our Church. Who really cares what happens to them one way or another.
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 05:11:47 PM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink
What I feel is the problem here is that we forget that we are the New Israel and that we are the inheritance of the Jews. When you see these types of passages that mock the Jews it is our own pride and sinfulness that is being mocked. We as Christians no longer recognize Judaism to exist except in us. Just as any group may want to call themselves the "Holy Catholic Christian Church" we would say that we are the only ones who can truly use that title.   
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 05:27:57 PM »

GIC

I'm aware of that bias, though I don't really think it effects me enough to change my position. As I just said, Jesus asked God to forgive them, implying that he had already forgiven them. Shouldn't Christians be able to step up, be obedient to God, and have dropped the animosity insomuch as was possible? And it's not like Jews in Egypt (for example) were rallying to crucify Jesus. Put into a modern context, personally, I don't want to pay reparations to african americans because of what someone else's anscestors did two hundred years ago.

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Quote
When you see these types of passages that mock the Jews it is our own pride and sinfulness that is being mocked.

No offense man, but this is sort of what I was talking about when I mentioned grappling with this issue. I've not seen many Orthodox who face up to the bad stuff in their history, especially when it involves beloved saints. But however you take it, the people who actually wrote and did the anti-Jewish stuff in the ancient Church were definitely talking directly to Jews, and didn't mean it to be taken in some type of humble spiritual way.

John Chrysostom, Eight Homilies Against the Jews
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007, 06:00:34 PM »

GIC

I'm aware of that bias, though I don't really think it effects me enough to change my position. As I just said, Jesus asked God to forgive them, implying that he had already forgiven them. Shouldn't Christians be able to step up, be obedient to God, and have dropped the animosity insomuch as was possible? And it's not like Jews in Egypt (for example) were rallying to crucify Jesus. Put into a modern context, personally, I don't want to pay reparations to african americans because of what someone else's anscestors did two hundred years ago.

I dont think there's really an issue here. Our liturgical tradition relates historical events as we believe them to have occurred. My point is that the Jew really doesn't matter, it doesn't really matter if we are being pro or anti-semitic in our liturgy; frankly our liturgical tradition is more significant than our relations with the Jews. I dont think this is animosity, per se, rather it's just indifference. For instance, I dont see how being an anti-semite either adds or detracts from Chrysostom, one is welcome to hold his opinion or the opposite opinion, or no opinion whatsoever. I will admit that this position is not purely Christian, as it also hs Nietzchean influences, if a people are not in a position to demand respect or to have gained respect, they are not worthy of the same. The Jews, like any people, only have themselves to blame for their status in the eyes of others. Of course, I do not know why one would concern themselves with the opinions of weaker peoples and nations.
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2007, 06:49:43 PM »

Personally, I've been uncomfortable with the language used about Jews in liturgical texts and wouldnt mind if there was some editing.  On the otherhand, I feel the context from which these texts came about, along with certain patristic writings around the times of the earliest councils are too often ignored.  Prior to the legalization of Christianity in the empire, much - maybe even most - of the persecution of early Christians was supported and fueled by the political and regional Jewish power.  This was a time period of horrific persecution and left a bitter collective memory among Christians, much like the holocaust today is remembered and under constant consideration by modern Jews, even if they don't have firsthand experience of it. 
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 09:42:38 PM »

First - these clerics are associated with the Society of Jesus' Thomas Aquinas college in Moscow and the related Ecumenical (Catholic) Moscow Biblical College.

Secondly - they obviously aren't talking about Orthodox theology. The stance of the Church Fathers and the Liturgy is not anti-Semitic but anti-Judaic. Jews are a people, hatred of Jewish people (including Christians of Jewish ancestry) is what anti-Semitism is. Disagreement with Judaic religion and theology, however, is what one finds in the Fathers and Liturgies. Having said that - there *is* anti-Semitism amongst Orthodox people, but one won't find it in the Fathers or Liturgy. I'm of Jewish ancestry, and expected those texts to not be excised when we prayed - that was just affirming the Church as Israel, the Jerusalem of God and not the Babylon of the Pharisees. The anti-Semitism I experienced was in the rumors I was Mossad simply for speaking Hebrew and admitting Jewish descent.

The anti-Semitism is in those who are suspicious of clergy and laity of Jewish ancestry, or not wanting to share in the Church with people of Jewish ancestry. It might help to read http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html by Dr. Gregory Benevitch, of the St. Petersburg School of Religion and Philosophy (translated into English.) Dr. Gregory understands what these anti-Orthodox 'dissidents' don't. That is, the Church is Israel and the disagreement was an internal one centered around the accepting or denying of the Messiah.

Strangely enough, this charge comes out of these Jesuit-associated clergy at the same time others in their association are attacking the possible restoration of the traditional Roman liturgy in the West... that suggests a shared attitude, and a hope to use the publicity to 'kill two birds with one stone' - the liturgies that descend from the Apostles. The attack starts with the Liturgy, the next step is purging the Scriptures (Epistles and Gospels.)

Finally - YOU killed Christ. There are no Gentiles in the Church. When you disavowed your pagan gods, you left Gentilism and entered Israel - you worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. When you disavowed the leaven of the Pharisees (their hypocrisy and fence-building), you were restored to the Remnant of Israel - the Church. That's a New Creation, a new nation called by His Name. That being said, as Israel - the words of the liturgy are a call for YOUR repentance (everyone.) As St. Paul said, that if we sin - we crucify Christ anew. So, again, it is not anti-Semitism in the liturgy - but strong medicine, Orthodox theology, and that call for repentance.
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 10:21:45 PM »

Indeed, that is the last desperate tactic used by opponents of the traditional Roman rite---smear it as anti-Semitic. If they think that will scare the Holy Father into not issuing the motu proprio, they are mistaken.
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2007, 10:33:51 PM »

I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic.  And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography.  The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident."  Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical?  See the article at:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152838943&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Priests are no bishops.  If they have problems with the teachings of the Church and go out in the open as if they knew everything, they are dissidents--protestants who think like Arius.

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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2007, 08:36:42 AM »

Yes the last time that I went to my doctor (who is Jewish)  I found myself singing the shma on the way home --- sheesh.

Also, history is history it was written and performed by imperfect men and women. Althoug the Jewish people were the literal people who were responsible for killing Christ, in essence we are all to blame.
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2007, 09:21:42 AM »

But why do we blame the Jews as a whole, as if they ALL did it? Thats like saying all Germans were Nazis and should be blamed for the concentration camps...most dont go around saying the "Germans did it" but the "Nazis did it". It was only those Jews who were there at that specific time who did that to Christ.

And about Jewish doctors...once when I was younger, about 5 or 6 I needed an operation and my mom wanted to put a small Bible in the operating room but the Jewish doctor refused to do the operation with a Bible in the room...
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2007, 10:58:42 AM »

But why do we blame the Jews as a whole, as if they ALL did it?

How did you come to the conclusion we are blaiming "the Jews as a whole"?

Those accusing St. Chrysostom of "anti-semitism" should reed his homilies on heretics and his explicit denounciation of use of force against heretics.

Are we to have Jews redacting our Liturgy? Are you serious guys?
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2007, 11:08:26 AM »

I am dead-set against this, shame on the people who call for this!
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007, 11:13:24 AM »

Well, when the Jews started out by killing the person we believe to be God, that kind of puts a damper on relations. I know it's the new PC thing to be pro-Jewish since WWII and all...but truthfully they're a small and irrelevant minority today; indifference towards them and their plight would be the most reasonable course of action for our Church. Who really cares what happens to them one way or another.

Darn right!
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2007, 12:15:17 PM »

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But why do we blame the Jews as a whole, as if they ALL did it?

The point is, it isn't blaming the Jews as a whole. The texts are referring to those in Jerusalem. The Greek term we translate as 'Jews' in English is the term for Judaeans. It was the Judaeans who first accepted Christ with Hosannah, then turned on him with 'give us Bar-Abbas'. There were others there at the time - Romans, Greeks, Galileans (who were also Israelites), etc. But it was the Sanhedrin of the Judaeans that sought to kill Christ for blasphemy (and that has been maintained by Orthodox Jewish polemicists throughout history - "we killed him for blasphemy".) Still, the Orthodox theology is that he died for our sins - the Reproaches are not about singling out an ethnic group for separation and punishment, they are a continuation of God's reproaches to mankind for continued sin.

Quote
Are we to have Jews redacting our Liturgy? Are you serious guys?

And that is really what it is all about - orthodoxlurker is right. The goal is a Judaic reediting of what makes our faith - purge the liturgy, purge the Scriptures. The cross is an offense to the Jews. Why? Look at the parable of the vineyard - the rich man sends his own son, and the workers kill him. It was a foretelling. Christ went willingly to his death, but we are still culpable for it because we sinned, and continue to sin. But, they want rid of the offense - first the Crucifixion, then the Resurrection, then the Incarnation, St. Paul, the Theotokos, .. it will all have to go because it is all an offense against Judaism.
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2007, 06:59:31 PM »

If you are struggling with a text or texts from the services is this reason to alter those same texts? Or is this something to try and find someone to help you understand, or simply recognise the Church's wisdom may be greater than your own?

Is it for the church to follow the world's mores and fashions over time? After all I thought we were to be in the world but not of it.........

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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2007, 11:04:26 PM »

If you are struggling with a text or texts from the services is this reason to alter those same texts? Or is this something to try and find someone to help you understand, or simply recognise the Church's wisdom may be greater than your own?

Is it for the church to follow the world's mores and fashions over time? After all I thought we were to be in the world but not of it.........


Yet, is it wise to not recognize that, as a Divine/human organism, the Church is indeed a human organization just as bound to human culture as it is transcendent of it?
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2007, 03:38:15 AM »

Darn right!

Your views are clearly motivated by racism and bigotry, and I am astonished that you are allowed to continue disseminating them here.
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2007, 03:45:10 AM »

Well, when the Jews started out by killing the person we believe to be God, that kind of puts a damper on relations. I know it's the new PC thing to be pro-Jewish since WWII and all...but truthfully they're a small and irrelevant minority today; indifference towards them and their plight would be the most reasonable course of action for our Church. Who really cares what happens to them one way or another.

As Christians we are supposed to be concerned with the plight of all people, no matter where they come from or what they believe, following Christ's example.  Your dismissive stance is really saddening.  That is, if it's what you really believe, and you're not just trying to get a rise out of us.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2007, 09:04:17 AM »

P-Bob,

    I think you are bang on, and GiC is doing his usual best and having some fun.  Although to be fair to GiC, I think he could have been much more controversial and is really only talking a "who cares" approach, which is certainly much better than what I've seen from others (not here).

     Ultimately, I would NEVER allow any others to redact our liturgical texts for the sake of political correctness and I'm a bit conflicted on the overall issues (vs. Jews) as I generally am very sympathetic to them, but completely unsympathetic to Muslims.  Therefore, I feel a bit like a hypocrite disagreeing with GiC, whilst the plank is in my eye.
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2007, 11:47:35 AM »

Such demands for false tolerance by asking for the editing of the Holy Liturgies are the marks of satanists who will also demand that the Lutherans remove their denominational name because Luther was an anti-Semite. There are also carnally obsessed types who demand the removal of St.Paul's passages from Romans that convict them in their sins. No doubt if some thug who may be nominally Orthodox and commits some act of religious vandalism, the eyes of the false tolerant will be upon the whole Holy Church. Meanwhile the false tolerant types have little to say about other religions in the world where honor killings, female infanticide, sex selective abortions are part of the societies shaped by their "faiths." Yes, ugly things have happened in all Christian nations in the past but the ugliest things happened when they stopped being Christian; Marxism, Nazism, French Revolution need I say more? Whatever shortcomings all professing Christian churches have had in history, I think it is safe to say any false justification to murder anyone has been overcome while murderous heathens persist in their abominations.
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2007, 12:43:54 PM »

Short, sweet and simply stated, proper catechesis.

Although I'm a anti-dentite...

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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2007, 01:45:48 AM »

I was always taught that "the Jews" in the New Tesatament was a political designation, with no more pejurative sense than in current parlance, " the liberals" or " the democrats." It represented those among the Jewish nation that rejected followers of the Way. It was not a nationalistic or ethnic or religious slur.

That later generations lost or forgot this understanding of the term (including some of the Fathers) and that some of the Fathers were less than honorable in this regard hints that although doctrine is not subject to development, it certainly can use, in each generation, proper historical interpretation, correction and refinement.

As regards canons, I think they should be updated every 50 years so as to not appear retarded. I go to a Jewish dentist who I like very much. If anyone wants to use a canon to critique that he is retarded.

Canon law, is by nature, provisional, cultural and attached to specific historical circumsatance and should be interpreted like modern case law. If someone (even a bishop) were to tell me to quit going to my dentist I would politely tell him to seek therapy.
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2007, 01:54:15 AM »

I will say on the other hand that Orthodoxy is probably kinder to the Jewish people than any other tradition of Christianity. The problems for Jews in Russia had less to do with Othodoxy than with not sufficiently converted Orthodox Christians. Just like in America, the problem with black slavery had less to do with protestant Christianity than with insufficiently converted protestant Christians.

Even devout people can be nationalistic, racist people and many of the saints and Fathers were probably both.

Martyrdom and severe ascetic discipline covers a multitude of sins, apparently - in both the East and West.
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2007, 07:35:31 PM »

I think the poster who has said that Orthodoxy is not "anti-Jewish" but "anti-Judaic" has come closest to the truth of the matter.  I remember I confessed a certain sin of judgmentalism and vengance to my spiritual father whose advice to me was to stop practicing 'Judaism'!  Maybe this is a caricature, but this has remained in my mind...  The Law of Christ is fulfilled through love and forgiveness. 

Those who say St. John Chrysostom was "anti-Semitic" know neither the real content nor the context of his sermons against the Judaizers.  But St. John forgives them, I am certain. 

I don't see how references to "iniquitous Jews", et al., could inspire hatred toward the Jews of today than something disparaging about the Greeks or Persians that persecuted the earliest Christians.  I do not want to go out and mutilate Jesuits every time I hear about their mutilation of St. Peter the Aleut. 

Someone mentioned the Pogroms as being inspired from such hymnography.  This is foolish.  The pogroms were mostly political-- Jewish communities were often behind assassination attempts on the Tsar and other politically powerful people... also sometimes (whether true or not) Jewish communities would be blamed for killing Christian children.  This does not excuse these horribly un-Christian actions, but it was certainly not as though the Church was telling people to go and do this.

In fact, there are letters of gratitude written from Jewish leaders of such communities to the Tsar and to the Cossacks, because the pogroms were often stopped by their efforts.  Prior to 1948, one of the only places where Jews had an autonomous province was Russia, under the protection of the Tsar himself... but you won't find any of that in the whig histories written about those times.   

Jews are called to be God's people through Christ just like all of us are.  Christ, the Apostles, even the Theotokos, all Jews according to the flesh.  They were the "chosen people" because God chose their nation to bring forth the Christ.  Judaism which denies Christ, His Gospel, His resurrection-- this is poison and the Church, by her teaching, is obviously opposed to it, no matter what we take out of our hymns.


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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2007, 02:59:31 PM »

I understood that we are the New Israel and those who do not acknowledge Christ have forfeited their 'choseness'.  St Paul speaks of salvation for the Jews when they recognize Christ.  He does not speak of salvation of Judaism.  We the new Jews, the Christians are  the chosen.   This anti-semitism ticket is a modern invention and very persuasive to the degree that back in the 60s, RC theologians attacked Orthdoxy for being anti-Jewish.   To hate Jews or any nation is a sin, but to hate Judaism as a  rejection of the God-Man is regretable but necessary if we believe in Jesus as the Christ.   If you compare Leviticus with the Talmud you will find startling differences.  Being nice and PC about our faith is a betrayal.   Killing Jews is not the answer, but resisting their machinations through the ACLU and other pressure groups is our duty (I believe).  We have a high percentage of Jewish converts in our parish and they are deeply moved by the Passion Gospels.   They don't demand Christianity with water as CS Lewis once put it.
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2007, 08:55:56 AM »

The Divine Liturgy is what it is - Love It or Leave It. I am definitely not for making the Divine Liturgy PC!
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2007, 09:08:31 AM »

^Does this mean you'd be against our Priest rapping during Liturgy?  Because... you know I love a good rap song! (This post just conjured up memories of a former poster - LOL)
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2007, 10:23:58 AM »

Grin

ALso, sorry for my lateness in congratulating you on the birth of your daughter.  Many years Maja!
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2007, 10:31:48 AM »

No problem brate! Kids got a set of lungs on her!!!  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2007, 04:58:53 PM »

While it's very clear from all four Gospel accounts that a subset of the of the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem (the Sanhedrin) urged the Roman authorities to have Jesus killed, it was Roman soldiers acting under Roman law who crucified Christ.  I find it curious that none of y'all mentioned that. 
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2007, 07:03:29 PM »

"by our law he ought to die".  But the Sanhredin could not execute God, so the Romans did it for them.  It was the Jews that cried his blood be upon us and upon our children, not the Roman soldiers.
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2007, 10:55:58 PM »

While it's very clear from all four Gospel accounts that a subset of the of the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem (the Sanhedrin) urged the Roman authorities to have Jesus killed, it was Roman soldiers acting under Roman law who crucified Christ.  I find it curious that none of y'all mentioned that. 
"You would have no power over Me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." -Jesus to Pilate (John 19:11)
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2007, 04:18:47 PM »

BJohnD,

You're right about the agency of the Romans... but we're talking specifically about Jews.  All of the earliest Christian writers considered the calamity that befell Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to be God's punishment for rejecting the Messiah.

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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2007, 05:48:04 PM »

It was the Jews that cried his blood be upon us and upon our children, not the Roman soldiers.

A verse that the OSB (at least) notes should never be used to attack Jews or Judaism.  WE are the children upon whom the blood shines bright.
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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2007, 10:12:48 PM »

Was not Christ also a Jew?
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2007, 05:09:30 AM »

Not according to a Russian fascist noble lady I knew, Jesus and his Mother were not Jewish but belonged to a now lost Russian tribe.................

Heaven spare us from this sort of bigoted nonsense.
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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2007, 12:03:09 PM »

I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic.  And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography.  The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident."  Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical?  See the article at:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152838943&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


WOW!!

Absolutely unbelieveable article.

It appears that 'areas' of influence in the orthodox church are going down yet another crooked road yet again.

I feel sorry for the laity in these areas where the 12 fathers come from. I was shocked more on the fact that these priests complied with this document in "defiance" of thier hierarchs. This is more shocking than the subject to me. These priest acted outside the church and thus thier actions are to be ignored until the Holy Fathers hand down thier decision on the matter.

No decisions of this magnitude can be excuted without full authority of the hierarchs of the Holy Orthodox Church in general and even then the fathers would draft thier own declaration. These 12 priest are NOT the representatives of "the Orthodox church" as the article quoted. The whole act is scandelous.

I have no problem with building relations with todays Jews, Roman Catholics, and all other religious communities. And if any single orthodox communion has sour words in their liturgy that is hateful toward anyone they should adjust the language.

If anothor religious group simply does not like what we are for what we believe and take offense to us than  we must defdend our faith. But we are not to be haters of any person or religious group not even in an indirect way.

The Holy Fathers have to conviene and make all decsions on any matter of the Holy Universal Church. Thats my point. Until then the Orthodox Church stands on her God given terms as they remain. NO renegade group of priest, or laity can over step that legally.

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« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2007, 12:23:22 PM »

To All:

Of the Seven Words Christ uttered on the Cross was " forgive them since they know not what they do"

This is repeated during in His beautitude prior to His crucifiction by the Hs acusers; he said: "Love your eneimies"

Christ is clearly acknowledging that "they" are guilty but at the same time "they" are to be forgiven.

Who is "they": Anyone who took part in accusing, trying, and condeming Him to death; this includes the executioner.

As true believers it does not matter who crucified Christ since no matter who it was we are to forgive them fully for it.

Christ was not killed; He was crucified. The crucifiction resulted in His death but was the bases of His Holy resurrection. Thus it is not a true statement that "Christ was Killed". Christ the true Messiah lives. Anything that is killed is doomed to death.

To say "Christ killer" is secular non-sense.
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« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2007, 02:00:06 PM »

To spin a bit off of Amdetsion's post:

The debate on who 'killed Christ' is a bit misguided by those who try to lay blame, and by those who try to say 'it wasn't my fault.' It's almost pointless to debate this, and it's pointless to 'amend' the Divine Liturgy to appease emotional-irrationality fueled by a politically centered, religious, ideology like Zionism is.

Scripture is clear that Christ willingly went to His Crucifiction. The point of His death, was His resurrection. And unless I've been totally off my rocker for the past 30 years, so is the Divine Liturgy.

I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why are some trying to down play Christ's Resurrection?
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2007, 03:08:56 PM »

If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2007, 03:09:54 PM »

using a cross or electric chair. Grin
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2007, 11:02:02 AM »

"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2007, 03:20:33 PM »

If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.

Keep in mind that you and I are going to be judged by God just like all other people including the Jews.

I pray that the lord does'nt say "well tuff" to you and I after we finish explaining and pleading to him for forgiveness for all of our horrible sins.

You are a useless sinner and I am the chief of all sinners.

May God help us.

Remember to love your enemies. This is unconditional.
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2007, 11:07:20 PM »

Interesting that criticism of Jews brings such righteousness indignation.  God help us when Anti-Christ takes over- of course He will if we follow Christ and not the PC agenda.
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2007, 11:38:59 PM »

"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.

The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.
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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2007, 02:12:07 AM »

   If the Orthodox Church, or any religious group or organization, or ANY group or organization, for that matter, were to "remove" parts of their services, rituals, constitutions, etc., etc., etc., at the behest of those who complain about different things for one reason or another, then we might as well completely delete everything-because SOMEONE will complain about it at all at some point! C'mon, now, lets try to make EVERYBODY happy!
   The priests calling for this might be "dissident," but undoubtedly not "uncanonical"-the "uncanonical" would not be for deleting these references (the "uncanonical"-a term which really means absolutely NOTHING, most often refer to the much dreaded "Old Calendarist" types, who, horror of horrors, prefer traditionalism over modernism and minimalism in worship and Church life); the "dissidents" are those, usually, who feel that Orthodoxy is too old fashioned, and that it needs to get in line with Roman Catholicism, or better yet, Protestantism, so it can be "in touch with the times." Maybe we could all just stay home and watch Mass on tv . . . a guitar mass, too, no doubt-oops, no, that is probably out of date-how about an Internet Mass? We could all receive virtual communion, then afterwards, we could all blog about the uplifting spiritual experience . . .   
   The references in the Services that some have deemed "anti-semitic" are part of the Orthodox tradition-of belief, of history, of the Services . . . in short, diluting or deleting would change much more than just the Services in question.
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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2007, 11:30:49 AM »

This is a red herring tactic by a group of satanists wanting to destroy the faith from within.
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2007, 11:53:04 AM »

Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2007, 01:48:48 PM »

Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
Sorry about the tone and I apologize for that but the issue is a red herring. Should not clergy know that?  In an earlier post I noted that criticism of any form of Christian faith that sounds "mean" gets more scrutiny than the nightmarish cultures that exist within other faiths. For example honor killings, sex selective abortions, female infanticide etc. and believe me these abominations are the "fruits" of some other "faiths." When one notices the apostates within the Episcopalian church any Christian should see the perils of satanic influence. For example, the Episcopalian "bishop" J Shelby Spong wrote a book entitled: "Why Christianity must change or die" and he acknowledges if his "reforms" fail and the faith "die" so be it. I wonder if some "enlightened" individual will write: "Why Orthodoxy must change or die?" "Test the spirits; Test all things, hold fast what is good and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2007, 10:26:27 AM »

The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.

We are to love our enemies.

If then we really do that (without conditions) what then is an "enemy"?
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2007, 01:25:58 PM »

Does anyone consider that a coterie of individuals have found a "hot issue" within the Divine Liturgy to upset our ability to worship according to our saviour's command: " God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24)? Mankind crucified Jesus Christ and any hierarch who used any aspect of the Holy Gospel to instigate a progrom against the Jews or anyone else failed to minister to what was entrusted. If it was not "anti-semitism" in the liturgy it would be some other "hot topic" that we need to "repent" of in order to conform to the emerging false world religion.
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2007, 01:47:56 PM »

The moslems are not our enemy either - they are simply hornets that are being stirred up against Christian values.  The dangerous enemy is the one within i.e. the ecumenists that would sell out our faith to appease secular interests.  The current attack on Jerusalem is an example - But by the Grace of God, these robber bishops will not succeed.  I think the Phanar will end up with some egg on its ecumenistic visage.

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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2007, 01:56:46 PM »

A verse that the OSB (at least) notes should never be used to attack Jews or Judaism.  WE are the children upon whom the blood shines bright.

More like the Pharisee/Jews using a typical tactic called "Shabbos Goy" to kill Jesus. You know Modern Day Jews using none Jews at the Cash Register or the front desk to prevent customer from being scared off. 
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2007, 01:59:46 PM »

Your views are clearly motivated by racism and bigotry, and I am astonished that you are allowed to continue disseminating them here.


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« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2007, 03:21:34 PM »


 Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict. This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends, but when I look at how they're using the Muslims to attack Palestinian Christians, I have to wonder. The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth. And this is really what we're talking about here. Religious teachings. We as Orthodox Christians are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to any teaching that goes against the Church and her teachings. And this, my brothers and sisters, includes Judaism.

 Yes, we are to love all people, but does this mean that in loving someone, we are to change part of our religion to placate them because they are offended? NO! The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it. That's why the burden is on US to explain the Truth to the world. It is a great sin that Christians have used the Jews as scapegoats for many of the worlds ills to justify brutality and bloodshed against them, but you better understand that if we should start re-writing or omitting prayers we don't understand or like, we very soon will find ourselves outside of the Church (and this most definately includes the prayers of the Saints!) where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this article sounds like more Zionist tacticts to undermine Christianity. I would be most interested in hearing from those priests, rather than reading snippits of their comments in a Zionist Israeli newspaper. After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....


 Gabriel

 
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« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2007, 04:53:56 PM »

Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not

Meaning no disrespect....

*Probably*?!?  How was any Jewish person who is alive today in any way involved in a real historical incident that is nearly 2000 years in the past?  No one alive todays voice or hands were involved in the trial or driving the nails.  How is it "probably not" may one ask?

Quote
BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict.

By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity, any person who made the claim would have been held to be blaspheming.  Trying to understand this idea or belief from an adherants viewpoint can be helpful.

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This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends

There is no "Jews" as "our friends" or as "enemies"; there are millions of individual persons, people who are just as Human as you or I.  They are not a monolithic bloc with one behaviour or view anymore then with any other subset of Humanity.

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The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth.

If they did not belief that they had Truth, they would not be practicing Jews, one might suspect.  And considering the violence and slaughter and cruelty that has at times in history been visited on Human Beings because they were Jewish by other people who were Christian, one might try to look at it from that viewpoint.  Why should they welcome that which has harmed their people in the centuries past?

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The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it.

Just telling another person that one has The Truth does not mean that they will accept that without question or hesitation. Why should they? When you were Muslim if a Christian came to you and said baldly "We have the Truth and you don't. Your religion is false."  How would you have reacted?   How do you show someone who does not belong to your religious group the Truth if previous claimants treated their ancestors brutally?

 
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After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....

It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?  How will one convince anyone else?  How would one react if they did not accept your "Truth" instantly?  How do you react when treated in such a way?  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is something to remember.  Try to understand other people as just as Human as oneself.

For the record, I am not nor have I ever been Jewish. 

Respectfully,

Ebor

 
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« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2007, 06:23:23 PM »

Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It was Adam (through Eve) that sin came into the world. Jesus the Christ is the only way to salvation from our sins. The sins we have are rooted in the sins of Adam. Without Adams sins then we come to the world without original sin and are thus at a point in our lives sinless like God.

We know that we all come to the world with the original sin (of Adam). We never experience any moment of tome on the earth without the shackle of sin unitl we are emersed in Christ flesh and blood which heals all sin and removes the bond of Adam.

The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law. The Law was given to give sin its name and character so that it can be understood and effectively removed; not by the Law but by grace and mercy in the salvation of Christ.

The fact that the Jews of the Christs era were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.

We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do". Rest assure that those we know today as Jews are still ignorant of the Truth (Christ is the Truth). The Truth that came to all people from Jewish roots.

This is a free choice which we all have. We can deny or accept.

Muslim are also worthy of mercy.

Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?

He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.

Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.

This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2007, 01:44:38 AM »

Meaning no disrespect....
 

 None taken, Ebor.  Cheesy I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though. You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that. If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions. The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  Kiss  Cheesy

Gabriel 

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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2007, 01:47:30 AM »

"It is time for us to recognize the charge of anti-Semitism for what it often is: a political weapon intended to silence critics of liberalism."  -  Rabbi Daniel Lapin

"Unfounded charges of anti-Jewish sentiments not only malign the innocent. They also create a ‘boy who cried wolf’ syndrome, in that they may well render society insensitive to real bigotry when it does come along..."  -  Rabbi Mayer Schiller

It seems even Jews are sick of all these outcries about anti-Semitism where none is to be found, for it may create a, as Rabbi Mayer Schiller said, "'boy who cried wolf’ syndrome" at the very least.
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2007, 09:14:26 AM »

Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

Quote
The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law.

?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

Quote
The fact that the Jews of the Christs era

Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

Quote
were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ

I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

Quote
then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.

Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

Quote
We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do".

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.   Undecided

Quote
Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?

 Huh  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

Quote
He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.

So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

Quote
Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.

As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

Quote
This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.

Indeed and on that we can agree.  Smiley

With Respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2007, 09:22:55 AM »

None taken, Ebor.  Cheesy I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though.

If you could explain how I may have misunderstood some of what you wrote, perhaps another thread can be started to go over things, since it is not necessarily part of the OP.

Quote
You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that.

Oh I don't know about that... Some of the threads on this forum have gone somewhat that way.  Wink  Historical accuracy in important and treating other people as Human Beings is hardly "sensitivity  training" but a commandment of Our Lord.

Quote
If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions.

Perhaps a different thread would be better since many other people also read these threads including lurkers and they might be interested.  Smiley

Quote
The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  Kiss  Cheesy

It is not my place to comment on that one way or the other.  I'm not EO, so I "don't have a dog in that hunt" as the saying goes.  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.

With Respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2007, 12:08:14 PM »

For me at least, this discussion has been begging the following question(s) for quite some while. Where do we draw the lines between Judiasm/Jews and Zionsm? Within this, where do we draw the line between legitimate anti-semetism, as opposed to our self-preservation from something that is evil or a wolf in sheeps' clothing?

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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2007, 01:26:01 PM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2007, 02:12:30 PM »

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.   Undecided

 Huh  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

Indeed and on that we can agree.  Smiley

With Respect,

Ebor

I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative. You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.

You missed my point by leagues.

Maybe I write poorly.

I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.

Without this you can not follow anything else I stated.

The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.

I will stop here since the main point of my post is hinged on a very important understanding of why we are Christians in the first place. This may not be that easy to explain.

I will leave with this:

Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.

Killing and torturing Jews, enslaving Ethiopians (or Africans as we are commonly known today) or nay other people and all other "wilding out" that has permeated the glode by people who claim Christ are really people who worship the world NOT Christ. These people and those that agree with them would never put there wordly love at jeopardy for Christ sake. People like this serve themselves. The have a facade of faith without the action. They do ot obey God.

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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2007, 02:48:08 PM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2007, 02:54:35 PM »

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2007, 03:59:50 PM »

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org

You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
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« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2007, 12:02:42 AM »

How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
...
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?

One way of understanding it is that it is an attempt by some Protestants to finally look for tradition after scorning it for so long. For those it has often been a 'halfway house' to Orthodoxy (like the Old Catholic movement, etc.) That was true in my case, as also for a few of my friends (one Antiochian priest was also Jews for Jesus.) Otherwise, there is some idea of competition - mostly because they find it difficult that Orthodoxy exists (and, not claiming to be a 'Gentile church'.) The Messianic/Hebraist community was overjoyed by the article that started this thread - that's how I found out about it myself (triumphal FWD of the article several times from Messianic friends and family.)

As for Zionism in American Christianity - that began with those sects who embraced Dispensationalist theology. It has become more mainstream due to televangelism and political association through the Evangelical wing of the Republican party.

My parents are Evangelical Republicans - they were pretty much apolitical before the 1970s (my father's folk being un-Reconstructed, my mother's folk considering politics the realm of the Evil One and thus not proper for Plain Folk.) During that decade there was a change - the Dispensationalist teaching, and the 1967 war brought a fervent expectation of rapture, and of the need to return Jewish people to Israel to bring about the Second Coming. Thus, many Evangelicals helped Reagan get elected, made Pro-Life part of the GOP plank, etc. Typically, the GOP before the Evangelicals joined was very Orientalist due to corporate connections in the oil industry. There still is some internal stress in the GOP due to this tension between 'Evangelical' and 'Old Republican'. There are also several other wings to the GOP (as in the Democrat party) that don't hold the issue in much importance at all. Often loyalty to the party is more important than personal conviction, family tradition, or other concerns. (Me, I'm outside of all that.)
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« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2007, 12:10:09 AM »

 Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you. Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.
 
To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

 By our virtue of being Christians, Ebor, we are anti-Judaic. That is, we are against the Judaic theology. Christianity and Judaism do indeed share a common thread, but this in no way implies that we can agree with one another on points of theology. The two are and always will be mutually exclusive. Likewise, by virtue of being Christians, we are pro-Jew (again, I am using Aristibule's terminology). We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with. And I might add that the Jewish people are made in the same image and likeness of God as a Christian. And BTW, the word 'anti-semitic' is a Zionist word concocted by the Zionist facists to help them in their efforts to continuously displace and subjugate the Palestinians, who are ALSO semitic people (since you have a keen interest in historical accuracy).

 I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor? I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.

 
By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity,
Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.
 
It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?

 It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew. What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death. I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason, but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 

 
  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.

  I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.

 sincerely Cheesy  


  
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« Reply #75 on: May 26, 2007, 11:53:50 AM »

Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org

 It's absolutely disgusting to hear and see this kind of rubbish being propagated as Christianity! But then again, what do you expect from 'pastor' Hagee-berg?!

You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?

 There's no question that it is. AIPAC (American Israel Political Action Committee) is one of THE most powerful and influential of all the lobbies.
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« Reply #76 on: May 26, 2007, 12:43:28 PM »

I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative.

I am asking for clarification of what you are trying to say and what you mean by "responsible".  How is asking questions "argumentative" please?

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You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.

I was looking at specific things that you wrote and asking how you knew some things that you asserted.  "Concocted"  My apologies, but I was trying to look at seperate points and claims.

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You missed my point by leagues.

Could you please state the point you were trying to say in other words?  I am trying to understand what you mean. 

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I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.

By the Fall of Adam and Eve all of humankind are subject to sin and evil and death. By disobedience to God all things are 'broken'.  The actions of 2 resulted in this being part of human behaviour through the decendents.

But you in 2007 did not do anything to cause an ancestor 1000 years ago to sin, you are not "responsible" for his/her deeds.  That is what I am trying to get across with what the meaning of "responsible" is and what you meant when you used the word.

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The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.

Indeed, this is what is taught by Christianity and I understand, follow and believe it.  Perhaps you do not understand some of what I am writing... My apologies if I am unclear to your reading. 

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Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.

Pardon me, but you seem to be saying that noone who belonged to the EO part of Christendom was ever guilty of brutality or cruelty or oppression.  The treatment of the Bulgars under the reign of Basil II is not pretty reading.  There are many cases of pogroms against Jewish persons in Russia.  The Emperors and Empresses of Constantinople in many cases were hardly pacifists or forgiving in their dealings with others who also wanted power.  If such things were not included in the history, then it is not telling the truth, but in fact, such incidents and persons *are* in the history.

All of humanity is given to sins of various kinds. Perhaps we agree on more things then you seem to think...

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2007, 01:17:40 PM »

 
 Not all Jewish folks are for the secular-liberal state of Israel...

 www.nkusa.org


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« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2007, 01:32:50 PM »

Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you.

It is interesting that asking questions for clarification and pointing out that other people have their own view points and ideas on things is called "argumentative".  One wonders if the mere fact of not accepting some unsupported assertions and opinions is counted as "arguing". However, one might prefer to address the subject points and not any possible personal character flaws.  Smiley

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Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.
 
 We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with.

"Compelled"? We have been created with Free Will and while we have the commandments of Jesus "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are free to not follow them if we so choose.  God does not force us to do things, but we may submit to His words.


and the actual ways that such love is shown and acted upon are quite important, I submit.  Just to clarify your other point in that paragraph, I am quite clear that the Semitic peoples include other groups besides those who are Jewish in ethnicity. 

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I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor?

Indeed, it says that one crowd of people in one city said that.  Should the words of one small portion of an ethnic or religious group then pertain to *all* people who belong to it both at that time and in the future generations unborn?  Would one like that applied to ones own faith, Church, ethnic group etc?  And yet such a verse has in the past been used to, as you wrote, "justify violence against" Jewish people.

I am not, btw, "worked up" just because I have other ideas to submit for consideration. Smiley

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I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.

Indeed.

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 Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.

Excuse me, but there is a vast difference between a religious body that has been around for millenia and (according to their own and Christian beliefs) were directed by God and given his Word and Scriptures)  and a group such as the KKK. (and I am aware of both the early years of the KKK under Nathan Bedford Forrest and the later horrors that occurred).

If one follows only the Old Testament, then there is no place for any human to claim to be the Son of God.  Believing Jews do not accept the New Testament.  Judaism is different from Christianity.  You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it. 

It can be helpful to try and think of how other people that one may disagree with might have the same kind of motives and reasons for what they do.   

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It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew.

May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.

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What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death.

I have read of such cases as well as how converts to Christianity or Christians themselves are sometimes treated in muslim countries.  It is a very sorry thing.

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I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason

But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would. They would believe that He was just a man who died.

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but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 

Indeed, and that gets back to the *how* and *what* of such teaching.  And it's hard to convince someone after many centuries of historical violence. 
 
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 I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.

Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title. Nor am I "hyper-sensitive" to the issue, unless the root issue is not understanding that people who do not agree with oneself or are like ones own group/faith are still Human Beings whom God created and made in His image and should be treated as we ourselves would want to be treated. (Golden Rule and all that,  Smiley )

Some of the posts would seem to be asserting that present day people who are Jewish are somehow "responsible" for Our Lord's Crucifixion.  Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.

Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?  Or should their view be looked at seriously?

How do you know that I do no "understand the teachings of Orthodoxy" based on my seeking clarification of individual's posts and considering the things that they have written about other members of the Human race?  I respectfully submit that you may be making an assumption.

With Respect,

Ebor




  
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2007, 12:11:45 AM »

This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.

Thank you for taking the time!
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« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2007, 01:32:26 AM »

 
 You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it.
Not I, but Holy Scripture. 

  
May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.
No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. Cheesy

But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would.
True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.
 
 
Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title.
That's what I was referring to.

Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.
I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.
 
Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?

 Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here). I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is. And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

 I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  Wink

 Gabriel





  

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« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2007, 11:11:31 AM »

No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. Cheesy

So you are familiar with the idea of coming to believe the tenets of a religion.  May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?  You did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Second Person of the Trinity was True when you were a muslim. 

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True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.

For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.

Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.

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I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.

A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".   How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"? 

Empathy to other human beings and trying to understand that they often have similar feelings and thought processes as oneself can be a very helpful thing to remember. 

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Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here).

And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?

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I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is.

Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie.   

And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies. 

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And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

 I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  Wink

There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  Wink)  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  Cheesy  But then I've been here quite a while.

Ebor

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« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2007, 03:02:54 AM »

May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?

 I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.
 
For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.

 Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. Cheesy

Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.

The vast majority of Muslims believe this way, but not all. And the two major factions of Muslims, the Sunni and Shi'a, are almost so different today so as not to recognize the view similarities they share. 'Sunni's' get their name from 'sunna', the sayings (hadith) and behaviors of Muhammad, while 'Shi'a' get their name from "Shi'at 'Ali"- the 'party of 'Ali'. They believe that Muhammad designated 'Ali as the next successor, while the majority did not. I was part of minority known for their rejection of all hadith unless it could be varified by the Qur'an (sounds like a Protestant to me Wink), though I had countless friends from both Sunni and Shi'a (and the mystical sect known as Sufi's). But I've digressed...You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.

A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".   How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"?

 Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 
 
And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?

 Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?

Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie.

 Well, unfortunately, there will always be these types of examples. And I would say out-right lies. I've heard of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', but know very little about them to comment.   

And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies.

Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 

There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  Wink)  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  Cheesy  But then I've been here quite a while.

Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now Wink. I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard". I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).

 Respectfully,

 Gabriel
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« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2007, 03:13:13 AM »

 
 I hope that didn't come off as being trite Wink
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« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2007, 03:47:15 AM »

Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes. Roll Eyes

If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.
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« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2007, 04:18:38 AM »

If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.

 Done. Thanks PtA Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2007, 02:34:53 PM »

I think what Paul says in the book of Romans sums up the Orthodox position:

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:28-29 ESV)

The religion is God's enemy, but God is faithful to who He called, even when they fall into apostasy; just like when you or I sin, God is faithful, and He leaves the 99 to go and find the 1. They still have the honor in being the first-called people of God's covenants with mankind.

Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Rom 11:12)

(By the way, I am half Jewish, so I have a right to be biased here.)
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« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2007, 05:10:03 PM »

Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.

My mom (God bless her soul) always said that "you must know the words you use like you know your name" since the words you use in front of others help to represent who you are and what you are to yourself.

God bless
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« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2007, 11:11:59 PM »

Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.

 Amdetsion,

 My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

 Gabriel
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« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2007, 11:47:32 PM »

Amdetsion,

 My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

 Gabriel

I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)
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« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2007, 04:59:21 PM »

I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)

It is a combination of both of the above.

We live in a world filled with sick people who have carefully planted their hate for God in the most unsuspecting places. They want us all to be haters of God; even if we do not mean to be.

This particular phrase is exceptionally sick. It turns me physically ill to think of what the creator of this phrase attempts to apply with this compound phrase.

Please be careful everybody...
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« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2007, 10:44:40 AM »

I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.

Thank you for this account.  May one ask where in this was your Muslim period and how long it lasted?  Was your  "very strict and exacting religious background" a Christian one?  I'm just trying to understand your explorations as it were.  Thank you.

Quote
Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. Cheesy

Well, here I think that "should" is the right word.  Since from your previous posts you think that Jewish people and Muslim people *ought* to become Christian (and there by deny/drop the beliefs they presently hold.)  it is, in effect, "You should become Christian."  and any reasons given are the "Why should they do that" support.  If I tell one of my children that they should do something that I believe is a good thing and they don't agree they might ask "why should I" which is different from "would".  If your reasons or "proofs" or examples do not convince another person, they are quite understandably not going to do what *you* think they ought to do.

Thank you for the overview of some of the parts of Islam.  I know them, but other readers here may not.

Quote
You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.

A "lifetime of examples"?  There are century upon century of bad examples, and plenty of the same thing happening even today.  (the "Protocols", "Jewish Conspiracies", and more).  Why should one person (who they likely have not known for a "lifetime" but months or years if that) think that *they* can counter that.  Also, the other person is not watching "you live your faith" but seeing only bits of it when you interact with them.  A Christian can be charitable and another can be uncharitable.  You might say that the second person is not *really* being a Christian, but that is probably not what the non-Christian sees. 

Quote
Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 

And I acknowledge that that is your possibility.  But applying *your* views to myriad other Human Beings is not taking their individual beliefs and behaviours into account. You do not know what they have experienced, what their interactions with Christians have been, how they were treated.  You being nice to another person for some hours every so often may not be enough to counter years of being harassed or called "Christ-killer" or other epithets or the knowledge that one's ancestors were murdered by those who also called themselves Christian.  

Quote
Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?

Yes, I know of that movie as well as some of the real Oskar Schindler.  I also know of the Garden of the Righteous and the "Righteous among the Nations" at Yad Vashem in Israel.  These are persons who are recognized by Jews as those who helped. 
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/temp_righteous/temp_index_recently_honored.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/righteous.html

Some died to help Jewish people.  The actions of one person helps and those of another harm.  They don't somehow "cancel" each other.  The memories, the knowledge, the wounds or hope are still part of a person's life.
Maybe some good examples would help "convince" but maybe not. 

Quote
Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 

But will you also see each person that you seek to convince/convert as just as much of a human being as you are?  And, I'm not trying to be difficult here, this is a serious question to get some thought:  Why do you want to convince them?  I'm not being argumentative.  Sometimes people do things that they may not have a good answer to the "why".  Why did you become a muslim? You said you left your early upbringing at 17.  Why?  Why did you then become Christian?  Were you rejecting one thing or drawn to something else?  Why do you want others be be Christian?  To have more in your group?  Because you know what's best?   Understanding the reasons behind actions can be very helpful.

Quote
Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now Wink. I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard".

<insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow>  Wink  Being an "argumentative blow-hard" is not *reasoned* though.  It would seem that you perhaps made an ummm assumption based on my not agreeing with you.   It can be quite reasoned to not accept another persons opinions and unsupported assertions without question.

 Smiley  That part of my sig is a handle that I got from the name generator of the "Unitarian Jihad" a good while ago.  This is a humourous idea, in which such names as "Broadsword of Warm Humanitarianism" and "Neutron Bomb of Courteous Debate" and "Trebuchet of Compassion" are taken by "followers". See here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

Due to my interest in Japan as well as my habit of logic and support of points, I found the "handle" that came up for me fitting, shall we say.  Grin (I'm not a Vulcan.  I just play one on the 'Net.)

Quote
I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).

A good passage to be sure as long as "reasoning together" is not taken to be automatic agreement or unchalleged assertions.

Ebor
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« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2007, 01:42:42 PM »

Now the Anti-Defamation League is offering their $.02.  Notice how the article refers to Bishop Jessep of the Ukranian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.  I wonder if the ADL will provide statistics about how many Jews were insulted or lynched because some Orthodox got worked up on Great and Holy Friday and took it out on them. 

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/5069_31.htm

ADL Urges Orthodox Christian Churches To Excise Anti-Semitism From Liturgy


New York, NY, June 6, 2007 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is urging the world's Orthodox Christian leaders to support a Christian proposal to excise ancient anti-Semitic passages from their liturgy.

ADL cited a declaration by an independent group of Orthodox Christian priests and intellectuals who are calling for their churches to reject centuries-old negative theological positions toward Jews and Judaism, including positions on the State of Israel.  The group represents five different Orthodox churches, including Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Georgian and Ecumenical Orthodox Churches. Some signed the declaration in defiance of their church leadership, according to news reports.

"We call on Orthodox Christian leaders to begin the process now to remove anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "This effort is long overdue.  Untold numbers of Jews have suffered throughout the centuries, and today, in some countries where these churches are prominent, Jews are confronted by growing anti-Semitism, because of the failure to address this."

Eric J. Greenberg, ADL Associate Director of Interfaith Affairs, noted that some Orthodox liturgy still refer to Jews as Christ-killers, and that some Easter services include calls for revenge against Jews. He noted that the Roman Catholic Church and several Protestant churches have removed anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy, and that the Vatican repudiated the deicide charge against the Jewish people in 1965.

"We commend the courageous priests and academics who seek to rid their churches of the poison of anti-Semitism," Greenberg said. "Support of this declaration by church leaders would help build a more positive interfaith dialogue between Orthodox Christians and Jews, and help increase religious respect around the world."

Bishop Paul Peter Jesep, U.S. Director of Public Affairs for the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Diaspora, said he supports the priests' campaign as essential to the future of the Orthodox Church.

"The Church has not done enough to address anti-Semitism," Jesep said, speaking in his individual capacity. "The Liturgy must be modified so that it is brought closer to the teachings of Christ."

The ten-page declaration endorses the eternal connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel, and calls for the repudiation of replacement theology, which erroneously contends that God's covenant with the Jewish people is not eternal. "It is time that we called anti-Semitism a grave sin against God and man," the declaration said. 




The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry
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« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2007, 03:45:48 PM »

^^ scary stuff in that article there.. Roll Eyes  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...
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« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2007, 06:40:06 PM »

As if it wouldn't be more important to protest the genocide in Darfur.... ?  One would think that a heroic, and logical result from ethnicities/races that have been brutally persecuted in the past would be to stick up for, protest, and place emphasis on present genocide and brutality.

Unfortunately, for the ADL it's more important to relive the past than to work in the present in order to better the future ...
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« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2007, 06:43:05 PM »

^^ scary stuff in that article there.. Roll Eyes  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...

Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.
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« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2007, 08:34:27 PM »

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Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.

Obviously not.... Grin Maybe someone should tell the ADL that, or would that be considered a hate crime?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2011, 10:00:57 AM »

 Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

 It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.
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« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2011, 09:13:56 PM »

Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also?

Not a bad idea, especially with regard to the Koran (though the Talmud is pretty bad too), it might help to smooth out some things in the middle east.
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« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2011, 09:38:36 PM »

I'm Jewish, about to join the Orthodox Church and I don't have any problem with "antisemitic" imagery, canons, etc One reason I felt drawn to the OC is because it does not change to fit the whims or PCness of the times.

Jews went after the RCC at Vatican II to change their liturgy to suit their wishes. What I'd like to know is when Orthodox Jews (what I was raised, btw) will change the Talmudic writings to remove anti-Gentile and anti-Christian references. My guess? When pigs fly.
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« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2011, 10:37:39 AM »

Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

 It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.

I don't see any evidence of "Political Correctness" in the canonical Orthodox Churches.  This topic dates back to 2007 and looking back I do not see any evidence of canonical Orthodox Church leaders being involved.
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« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2011, 12:13:31 PM »

Besides, there are no real anti-semitic elements in Orthodox liturgy.
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« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2011, 12:14:52 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
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« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2011, 12:24:06 PM »

can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services
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« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2011, 01:06:02 PM »

can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services


Although written by a traditional Roman Catholic before Vatican II, I find this book to be unsurpassed when it comes to explaining WHY so many Jews and organized Jewish groups try to change each Christian church, one by one, to suit their beliefs. Once you have read this book, you won't have any more question as to the "why" of all this.

As I said, its by a RC priest but it answers everything. "The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr Denis Fahey C.Ss. P.,  c 1953, available inexpensively from http://store.catholicism.org/the-kingship-of-christ-and-the-conversion-of-the-jewish-nation.html  or http://www.omnicbc.com  Just do a search for the title or the author.
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« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2011, 01:31:11 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  Grin) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.
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« Reply #106 on: August 08, 2011, 01:35:23 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  Grin) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.

I don't recall that event being in the liturgical service for St. Ambrose.
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« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
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« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2013, 04:01:05 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.

I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.
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« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2013, 12:56:46 AM »

Here's an older article by a Russian Orthodox priest of Jewish descent on the question of Judaism and the Russian Orthodox Church

It might prove interesting and informative: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html
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« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2013, 10:04:36 AM »

I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. Wink

"may HIS blood be on us and our children".  Was that ever said at the Crucifiction? 
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« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2013, 10:06:12 AM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
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« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2013, 11:50:05 AM »

I hope the Orthodox Church does not give into this PC nonsense.  Saying no to ADL and other like minded groups is not anti-Semitic in the least, its about keeping one's religious integrity.

And seriously, as someone above mentioned, Christians should call on Jews to remove all the anti-Gentile/anti-Christian venom and vitriol found in the Talmud.  Not to mention all the horrific things the Talmud says about Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Let's see how the ADL and co would react then.
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« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2013, 02:29:12 PM »

As one who has struggled with some of the hymnography that can be perceived as anti-Semitic (especially during the service of the Twelve Passion Gospels), here is something that may be of interest from Archpriest Valerian Krechetov, a priest in Russia:

"The divine services of Holy Week call on one to have compassion and sympathy for the Savior.

On the first three days one is supposed to reread all four Gospels as a reminder that the Lord created us, but that we crucified Him by our sins. And although this appears to be addressed to the Jews of that time, it relates to everyone who has crucified Christ by his sins."

Source: http://www.pravmir.com/how-should-we-spend-holy-week/
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« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
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« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated

 Huh
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« Reply #116 on: April 30, 2013, 08:13:00 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

The weren't against Jewish people, either.
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« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2013, 08:15:34 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated

 Huh

Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.
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« Reply #118 on: May 01, 2013, 11:49:01 AM »

Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.

Does it singal that in this case?
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« Reply #119 on: May 01, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?
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« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2013, 12:11:58 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
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« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2013, 01:20:36 PM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
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« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2013, 02:16:58 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.
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« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2013, 02:32:11 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.


But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
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« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2013, 02:36:09 PM »

Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.


But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

I don't look at it with hindsight but humility, seeking rather to be in tune with the mind of Church.
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« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2013, 02:45:26 PM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2013, 03:01:06 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
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« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2013, 03:04:47 PM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?

Nothing.
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« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2013, 03:13:36 PM »

What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?

Nothing.

Amen
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« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2013, 03:25:36 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.

I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.


If you are going to reresurrect a thread from 2007 the most awesome way to do it is to offer a reply including content from 2003.

Well done. Seriously, I hope to read your essay later.
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« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2013, 03:57:36 PM »

^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
I don't really. care really one way or the other. The impact these relatively obscure liturgical texts have on how people think about Jews is probably zero anyways. 
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2013, 04:03:42 PM »


Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples.  

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews.  
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« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2013, 05:05:40 PM »

Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 

So smart and witty....
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« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2013, 05:20:29 PM »

Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...

Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?

News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...

Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
Or not.  Maybe you don't understand how they worked.  It's ok and nothing a little research can't correct.

Orthodoxy is as antisemitic as women's volleyball.  Just because something doesn't agree or support doesn't mean it's anti-Jewish and if it does, what does that say about Judaism in regard to Christianity?  

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« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2013, 10:16:09 PM »

Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2013, 10:39:29 PM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?

What would you want them for? The edited version only lacks some stanzas, nothing new was added, nothing was re-written.

Liturgically informed people prefer the older (complete) version, because it has as many stanzas as there are verses in Psalm 118. It is also metrically better adapted to the music. People who use the "short" one completely omit the Psalm verses, which are actually much older and a constitutive part of all funeral office.

One "progressive" Romanian bishop even suggested dropping the Enkomia altogether, for the sake of "sobriety" and since it is the newest addition (apparently originating on the Holy Mountain) to the office of Great Saturday. That would be an outrage indeed, since people are so fond of it and everybody joins in when it is sung. 
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« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2013, 08:05:58 AM »

I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.

Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
No. The changes aren't very consistent  or even noticeable. Just some verses dropped or "Jews" replaced by "Judas".
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« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2013, 08:41:12 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:41:54 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2013, 08:49:05 AM »

Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?
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« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2013, 09:06:03 AM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?
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« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2013, 09:11:28 AM »

Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?

A story with all the bad-guys' bits edited out has no dramatic impact.

Can you imagine Purim without shouts of joy for Haman getting hanged? 
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« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2013, 09:24:07 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
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« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.
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« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2013, 09:30:45 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

You're taking your pick from the shovels in calling Michal a Pole. I know plenty of Belarussians who were born or grew up in Poland, who, in the Soviet era, would tolerate being called Russian, but God help you if you called them Polish.
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« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2013, 09:31:42 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

And self-identification is your security blanket.
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« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2013, 09:32:08 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

He may be Polish, but he's still not a Pole.
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« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2013, 09:33:12 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
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« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2013, 09:39:48 AM »

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

No need to imagine. In colloquial Finnish  "jenkki" refers to all Americans irregardless of anything. You're all Yankees to me. Kiss
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« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2013, 09:44:20 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  Shocked
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« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2013, 09:45:23 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
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« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2013, 09:47:57 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

 I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.
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« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2013, 09:50:18 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

 I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.

Very unconvincing to this Large Bald Kid.
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« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2013, 09:50:35 AM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  Shocked

 That was his point.  Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2013, 01:37:21 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish.  

It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive. Oh wait, you self identify as "Gabriel the Celt" so you should get it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 01:40:49 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2013, 01:43:47 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive.

It would be more interesting were the contributor to try and pull that stunt with a Glaswegian. A 'Glasgow kiss' would likely follow. Very direct and very painful.
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« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2013, 03:28:47 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
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« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2013, 05:50:41 PM »

..., you self identify as "Gabriel the Celt" so you should get it.

 Look who just caught up.  I think I established that several posts back.  Wink
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« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2013, 06:40:56 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?

I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
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« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2013, 07:08:00 PM »

So smart and witty....

Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  Wink

You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!


I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.

Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?

I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
I thought that was only jure uxoris. I'm familiar with that situation.
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« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2013, 11:04:51 PM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
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« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2013, 12:56:31 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh
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« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2013, 01:03:53 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh

Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.
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« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2013, 06:32:42 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.



Duckbear?   laugh

Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.

Quackers.......!!!
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« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2013, 03:33:38 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
It is not so much a matter of logic, but more a matter of differing definitions on who is Polish, or who is Jewish, etc.
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« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2013, 05:04:33 AM »

But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"

You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?

No, someone in the early middle ages. I can't seem to remember his name, though.
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« Reply #165 on: May 08, 2013, 09:00:50 AM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.
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« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2013, 02:09:07 PM »

If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 

Your logic is flawed.

Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.

How is ethnicity determined?
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« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2013, 02:13:20 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
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« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2013, 02:30:37 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 
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« Reply #169 on: May 08, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 

Do not tell me what should I be.
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« Reply #170 on: May 08, 2013, 02:51:09 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 

Do not tell me what should I be.

 I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference? 
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« Reply #171 on: May 08, 2013, 02:57:09 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations. You parents and grandparents could be from China,and have some history in China, but they are white Russians who moved to northern China. Or going way back, one member could be Chinese, and another member was black,  but the others were Russians.
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« Reply #172 on: May 08, 2013, 02:58:10 PM »

I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  
Well then, what is the correct definition of ethnicity?
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« Reply #173 on: May 08, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »

How is ethnicity determined?

You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.

 You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks.  

Do not tell me what should I be.

 I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference?  

If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).

This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations.

Did I say it isn't?
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« Reply #174 on: May 08, 2013, 03:06:20 PM »


If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).


You're still talking about culture here. Ethnicity has nothing to do with upbringing whatsoever. For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
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« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2013, 03:09:20 PM »

For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.
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« Reply #176 on: May 08, 2013, 03:14:52 PM »

For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.

Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
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« Reply #177 on: May 08, 2013, 03:19:50 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
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« Reply #178 on: May 08, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.

Here are mine.

Ethnicity: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.   

Culture: A way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.

Citizen: A native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection ( distinguished from alien ).

Nation: Nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.

Sources in headings.
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« Reply #179 on: May 08, 2013, 03:34:24 PM »

I was watching Andrew Zimmern's culinary show yesterday.  He was down in Jamaica.  One of the folks he showcased was an ethnic Chinese family living there.  If you were to close your eyes, listening to them talk you wouldn't know they were ethnic Chinese.  But they were showcasing how they blended ethnic Chinese culture with the surrounding Jamaican culture.  And every'ting was irie, mon.  Smiley
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« Reply #180 on: May 08, 2013, 03:36:27 PM »

mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all
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« Reply #181 on: May 08, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »

mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all

The nation state is historically a fairly recent innovation. Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians. In the UK the passport describes holders as British citizens, but they may be English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish. Citizens of the PRC may be Han Chinese, Tibetans, Uighurs, etc.

Mislabelling can cause real offence, a good example of this those who identify the UK as England. True 80 per cent of the population live in England but calling a Scot English can lead to an explosive and verbally colourful response.
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« Reply #182 on: May 08, 2013, 04:20:55 PM »

Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
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« Reply #183 on: May 08, 2013, 05:37:03 PM »

Christ is risen!
For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.

Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
If he is light enough, he can pass.

Or he can become black.

Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.


For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.
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« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2013, 05:42:05 PM »

Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
so the bureaucrats in Vienna and Budapest thought, but peoples involved proved otherwise. The Poles even have a monument to that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin_Mound
with irony-and justice-it is in Ukraine now.
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« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2013, 05:47:15 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
Culture-the customs of a group of people.
Ethnicity-a culture whose people see their customs setting themselves apart from others.
Nationality-a culture with an army and navy.
Citizenship-a nationality telling you what you are, often with the help of its army and navy.
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« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2013, 07:13:43 PM »

Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
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« Reply #187 on: May 08, 2013, 07:50:27 PM »

Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
yes, an ethnicity can be retained but it cannot be imposed.
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« Reply #188 on: May 08, 2013, 10:04:43 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
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« Reply #189 on: May 08, 2013, 10:24:53 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
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« Reply #190 on: May 08, 2013, 11:22:47 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
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« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2013, 02:41:12 AM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

You misunderstood me. I meant that in the Austro-Hungarian Empire "Austrian" was every citizen of the Austrian part of the Empire, both ethnic Germans and other ethnicities such as Czech, Poles, Ruthenes (Ukrainians)...

Most of those who were left in residual Austria after the end of the WWI were ethnic Germans, since many territories had been lost to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and Yugoslavia.

An Austrian identity distinct from German developped after WWII. But still today, one would speak in Austria of an ethnic German majority and ethnic minorities such as Croatians and Slovenes.
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« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2013, 08:00:03 AM »

it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

All identity is. Americans should know this. We can forgive the rest of the world for their own naivete about identity, but we have no excuse.
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« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2013, 09:09:58 AM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...
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« Reply #194 on: May 09, 2013, 11:14:08 AM »


Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.

For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.

I don't know much about science, but I don't think you can look at just one haplogroup and declare two separate groups the same. The similarity here is most likely due to both areas being invaded by the Mongols and their descendants (the surname Khan is quite prevalent in India for the same reason).
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« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2013, 01:17:38 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...

If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.
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« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

No thanks, I'll pass...

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...

If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.

No thanks, I'll pass. Actually I'm long sighted Wink
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« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2013, 10:48:31 PM »

I am a Jewish Orthodox Christian and I am not offended by anything in the Liturgy.  I stand transfixed by the glorious and beautiful poetry and imagery of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  I couldn't image changing anything.  It is surely God's magnificent gift to us.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother and all the early Apostles were Jewish.
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stanley123
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« Reply #198 on: May 27, 2013, 10:15:26 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.
Well, if ethnicity is not a shaky concept, how do you define Macedonians? Are they Greek, Serbian, Albanian, Bulgarian or Macedonian? If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?