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Author Topic: Tired of the double standard  (Read 2341 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« on: April 19, 2007, 09:17:53 PM »

1) A stripper/hooker claims three Duke Lacrosse players rape her - she is believed right away. Three young men are convicted in the press; the Lacrosse season is canceled; the players are kicked out of Duke; the coach resigns. But it turns out they are totally INNOCENT!

2) A girl in Maryland claims that she was molested by a teacher. The teacher is fired and a counselor is fired. Turns out that both the teacher and counselor are CLEARED of all charges.

3) A preacher's wife shoots him in the back while he is sleeping. The ONLY charge of abuse comes from her and her alone. Her children and friends say that they saw no sign of any abuse. Bank people testify that she had totally messed up their finances and was scammed. The dumb-ass jury buys the "abuse" BS it and she is NOT convicted of Murder.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:55:07 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 10:33:11 PM »

ya...it's a scary world out there.

As the great GW once said, "So help me God!"
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »

That is life it seems.  On one side it should be easy for women to come forward and believed when something does occur, but false charges can, well, TomS showed the outcomes.  Yet, you cannot make it overly difficult for the women to come forward nor always doubt every word they say, or these things will continue and likely escalate (which occurs all too often).  Unfortunately, this subject seems to lack any impartial nature in the courts and media, a lot like custody battles.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 11:13:05 PM »

As Don King says, only in America...

OJ is still hunting for the murderer...

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 11:47:45 PM »

That is life it seems.  On one side it should be easy for women to come forward and believed when something does occur, but false charges can, well, TomS showed the outcomes.  Yet, you cannot make it overly difficult for the women to come forward nor always doubt every word they say, or these things will continue and likely escalate (which occurs all too often).  Unfortunately, this subject seems to lack any impartial nature in the courts and media, a lot like custody battles.

Well, in all these instances I would say that the justice system was successful. In the first two cases the accused were cleared by the judicial system, the injustices were committed by the press and unscrupulous individuals that did not have the same exacting standards as our judicial system.

The lst case is a bit more difficult, but I believe it shows that our Justice system can work (unfortunately, the main flaw in our judicial system is when the opposite happens). Conviction must be beyond a reasonable doubt, her testimony perhaps combined with a small amount of circumstantial evidence in her favour should be more than enough to win an acquittal. The burden placed on prosecutors is generally insufficient in our judicial system, 'reasonable doubt' is too wide open for interpretation, a number should be placed there, for instance a certainty within a few percent of a hundred should be necessary for a conviction; unfortunately, too often a prosecutor will demonstrate that one is more likely guilty than not guilty, and a jury will side with the prosecutor. A guilty person going free is not a significant failure of the judicial system, the real failures are when innocent people are convicted; or one one is given a sentence beyond what would be fair for the crime they committed.

So in the case of women comming forward needing protection, by all means let them come forward, and by all means give them protection, and help them. BUT, another should never be convicted on their  testimonies alone, the accused in these cases should have all the same rights mentioned above; if you want a conviction you need multiple reputable witnesses or strong physical evidence to corroborate a testimony, the word of one or even two people should not be taken seriously by a prosecutor until more evidence is presented to them.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 08:43:03 AM »

At least some Texas DAs have figured out how to deal with situations like those, where a supposed "victim" comes forward and then changes her story after the accused are punished.  We charge recanting victims with perjury.  For those that don't actually make it to a proceeding where the "victim" can perjur herself, there's still the civil tort of malicious prosecution.  On top of that, the Duke DA will probably never practice law again, ever after the state bar gets ahold of him.  Justice will still be done, despite the "victims" best efforts to pervert the system.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 04:11:57 PM »

Quote
A guilty person going free is not a significant failure of the judicial system


A victim and/or their families may disagree ...
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 06:30:32 PM »

A victim and/or their families may disagree ...

Perhaps, but ultimately neither one being accused by our judicial system, nor those seeking justice in the same are in a position to objectively assess the same. In both cases, both parties nearly always take the position that is most favourable to their personal cause.

But the presumption of innocence and the preference for freeing the guilty over punishing the innocent is elemental to our legal system.

To quote English jurist William Blackstone (and who else would we first quote?) 'Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.'

Or to quote our founding father Ben Franklin, 'it is better one hundred guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.'

Or to quote actual legal precedent, Henry v. United States established that 'it is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches, that the guilty sometimes go free than that citizens be subject to easy arrest.'

If one prefers to live in a society with presumption of guilt, one can find them; though most people are unwilling to even visit such states.
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 06:45:36 PM »

Well, what about the innocent who are judged guilty?
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 07:36:09 PM »

Since this is an Orthodox site I thought I'd post a relevant legal precedent,

The noble (bivus) Trajan wrote to Julius Frontonus that no man should be condemned on a criminal charge in his absence, because it was better to let the crime of a guilty person go unpunished than to condemn the innocent." Digests of Justinian, Book L, Chapter xlviii. Title 19 Section 1 Paragraph 5.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 09:38:37 PM »

Since this is an Orthodox site I thought I'd post a relevant legal precedent,

The noble (bivus) Trajan wrote to Julius Frontonus that no man should be condemned on a criminal charge in his absence, because it was better to let the crime of a guilty person go unpunished than to condemn the innocent." Digests of Justinian, Book L, Chapter xlviii. Title 19 Section 1 Paragraph 5.

Yes, but it happens in our own systems.  Either you're saying we are misusing the system or we used it correctly that lead some innocents to condemnation.  In this case, you really haven't answered my question sufficiently.

God bless.
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2007, 01:36:27 AM »

Yes, but it happens in our own systems.  Either you're saying we are misusing the system or we used it correctly that lead some innocents to condemnation.  In this case, you really haven't answered my question sufficiently.

God bless.

Well, I think I addressed that above the best I can. Ideally an innocent person should never be punished for a crime they did not commit. That is the point of these legal principles, we would rather let a few (or ten, or a hundred) guilty people go free than condemn a single innocent person.

Now is our system perfect? No. Could it be improved? Certainly. But the theory is sound and, as such, I will not protest when a guilty person is acquitted in a court of law; because the fact that they were acquitted means the system is working, that preference is given towards innocence; thus if even some guilty can escape justice, perhaps we can be assured that the innocent at least have a greater chance when wrongly accused.
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2007, 08:34:19 AM »

Well, I think I addressed that above the best I can. Ideally an innocent person should never be punished for a crime they did not commit. That is the point of these legal principles, we would rather let a few (or ten, or a hundred) guilty people go free than condemn a single innocent person.

Now is our system perfect? No. Could it be improved? Certainly. But the theory is sound and, as such, I will not protest when a guilty person is acquitted in a court of law; because the fact that they were acquitted means the system is working, that preference is given towards innocence; thus if even some guilty can escape justice, perhaps we can be assured that the innocent at least have a greater chance when wrongly accused.

have you ever considered being a DA?  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007, 12:27:56 PM »

It is not perfect, and women knowingly making false charges ought to be punished accordingly, but I would rather have a society where a woman's testimony is heard and valued enough to inspire an investigation than a society where when a woman claims rape, you need three witnesses in order to believe her, and without those, she can be murdered for committing adultery. Put it in a comparative context like that, and our system doesn't sound so bad.
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 01:14:07 PM »

...Put it in a comparative context like that, and our system doesn't sound so bad.

Yeah. I was waiting for this type of post Roll Eyes

And just where in any of the examples that were given do you see anyone saying that an alleged crime should not be investigated?

Extremism is always bad.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 01:16:12 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2007, 05:06:52 AM »

I myself am tired of a little bit different double standard! That is the one where, if you have a lots of money, you get off; if you are poor, you goes to jail! But I mean, we all know rich people are innocent, and its them dang poor people who commit all the crimes, huh?
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2007, 07:33:41 AM »

I myself am tired of a little bit different double standard! That is the one where, if you have a lots of money, you get off; if you are poor, you goes to jail!

Agreed. In Maryland we had 3 white middle-upper class high-school senior kids rob an ice cream store with a bb pistol. They got off with probation and community service. If these kids were any other race, they would have been made an example off.
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2007, 10:30:20 AM »

Quote
In the first two cases the accused were cleared by the judicial system, the injustices were committed by the press and unscrupulous individuals that did not have the same exacting standards as our judicial system.

The stigma associated with even being accused as a rapist is one that sticks with you for a LOOOOOONG time.  Sure, they were proved innocent, but I guarantee you that the first thing those guys will be known for in the near and not-so-near future are "The Duke Rape Case guys".

Think about having that phrase associated with your personage. 

And let's not forget the fact that this woman has denigrated actual victims of rape by falsely accusing the players.  She has made a mockery of true, life-long pain that women who have actually been raped.  It's already a rough struggle for rape victims to come forward.  When people falsely throw that accusation around, it makes it that much harder for victims to see some justice happen and get real rapists off the streets.

That woman should be prosecuted the fullest extent of the law, period.
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