OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 24, 2014, 12:32:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bishop Kallistos On Female Priests  (Read 16890 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« on: May 09, 2003, 10:46:02 AM »

There has been some speculation on a couple boards about where exactly his Grace stands on various issues, one of which is the ordination of female priests. I started reading Women And the Priesthood (1999 Edition) yesterday, and the very first article is by Bishop Kallistos. So, for those interested, here's a quote:

Quote
"As regards this present piece, it represents an extensive revision of something that I originally wrote in 1978. Since then my views on the issue have altered. In 1978 I considered the ordination of women priests to be an impossibility. Now I am much more hesitant. I am far from convinced by many of the current arguments advanced in favor of women priests; but at the same time a number of the arguments urged on the other side now appear to me a great lead less conclusive than they did twenty years ago. What I would plead is that we Orthodox should regard the matter as essentially an open question. Let us not imagine that in this area everything is clarified and finally settled; for manifestly it is not, either for us Orthodox or for other Christians.

One point deserves to be underlined at the outset. On the subject of women and the priesthood, there exists as yet no pan-Orthodox statement, possessing definitive Ecumenical authority." (Emphasis his) - Bishop Kallistos, Women And the Priesthood, (Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1999), p. 7

If I see any other relevant quotes, I'll post them here.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2003, 11:11:27 AM by Paradosis » Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 802


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2003, 11:05:32 AM »

That oppinion isn't common for Eastern Orthodox, is it?
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2003, 11:08:15 AM »

Oh, that is scary . .  .

A bad sign. Sad
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2003, 11:16:13 AM »

Jonathan,

No. Fortunately, the opinion articulated by his Grace is not affirmed by Orthodoxy. When I first had heard speculation about where Bishop Kallistos stood, I was hopeful that he was just saying "let's discuss it so that we can show why we believe what we believe". I essentially thought it would be an exercize in apologetics.  I see now that his Grace has something much more "scary" in mind (I think Linus said it well).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2003, 11:16:56 AM by Paradosis » Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,474


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2003, 12:05:27 PM »

I really think that everyone is reading into his Grace's statements far more than he intended.  It's almost as if just because he didn't say as the Pope did a few years ago, "Never...", that everyone is assuming he's for women in the priesthood.  I think his point is that until a pan-Orthodox council says, "Never...", that the issue is far from over and can still be discussed.

My pastor was discussing this very topic, women priests, a few weeks ago with some students from CUA after Liturgy and came up with the point that, at least within the Roman Catholic church and those in communion with it, they have to come up with something better than, "Because the Pope said so...".  It's kind of ironic that Bishop KALLISTOS is almost trying advocate the opposite, "Because the Council said so...".

FYI, I'm not a proponent of women priests.  Smiley
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2003, 12:21:28 PM »

This is very dissapointing.
Logged
srenalds
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2003, 07:32:13 PM »

I don't view this as scary.  Many people criticize Bishop Kallistos for some of his statements that they believe to be more ecumenical, as if he were trying to rewrite Orthodoxy.

I feel the audience he speaks to sometimes warrants more discretion than say someone who only speaks to a monastic crowd.

His statement above seems to muddy the waters on his views regarding female ordination, without giving people much ammunition on either side.  I will try not to assume he's sliding...  I have my own problems to deal with anyway. Smiley

SR
Logged

NULL
sinjinsmythe
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 737



« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2003, 07:45:59 PM »

I am dismayed and leary of the quote by his Grace. This is not good at all. I don't think many Orthodox, especially the traditionalists, would stand for the ordination of women. After all, isn't Orthodoxy getting converts who are coming from Christian groups that ordain women? Why not make this a lesson in apologetics for the world. I will say this, the day world Orthodoxy decides to ordain women as priests, is the day ROCOR membership grows exponentially.
Logged

Life is just one disappointment after another.
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2003, 07:50:14 PM »

I am dismayed and leary of the quote by his Grace. This is not good at all. I don't think many Orthodox, especially the traditionalists, would stand for the ordination of women. After all, isn't Orthodoxy getting converts who are coming from Christian groups that ordain women? Why not make this a lesson in apologetics for the world. I will say this, the day world Orthodoxy decides to ordain women as priests, is the day ROCOR membership grows exponentially.

Well put, sinjin.

Let's hope it's not prophetic.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 802


WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2003, 09:57:21 PM »

If the EO were to start ordaining women (which I'm sure will never happen), that would pretty much complete the argument that EO's have doctrinal development just like Catholics... I don't see how anyone could see something like that as an open question.  I'm glad that's not the oppinion of most EO's.
Logged
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2003, 11:38:04 PM »

    His Grace makes it clear that this is his personal view which has undergone a change in the past 20 years. I think it is part of the freedom of Orthodoxy and something positive that there is not this kind of Holy Office as in Catholicism that on matters such as this, the matter is closed (Roma locuta, causa finita)  He is an eminently thoughtful man and I admire that he has honestly come to a different view  which does not involve such vital things such as the Creed and the Holy Councils.
   Actually, one of the things that made me start to doubt infallibility in the Roman Catholic Church was a statement by Cardinal Ratzinger that the matter of women priests came under the heading of dogma and so infallibility was invoked.  It is not.  It is a matter of Church discipline and order and is still open to discussion.  I don't see Orthodoxy ordaining women priests soon if at all.  This is not that important to me.  The Faith is about more important things such as the Nature of Our Lord, the Holy Theotokos.  Those are the important things not whether there are women priests or deaconesses.  

                        Peace,
                          Brian
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
srenalds
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2003, 07:44:46 AM »

Well said, Brian!

I think this is getting a bit out of hand.

Suggestions of jumping to ROCOR over a statement made by one Bishop, even one as influential as Bishop Kallistos, seem to triviliaze our commitment.

Also, if we allow ourselves to think these thoughts, internally or out loud, perhaps this will be some seed planted in our mind or in the mind of those we speak to that could cause a stumble if something of a similar nature happened.  

Saint Mark of Ephesus did not leave the Church and start his own.  Neither did Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Alexander, Saint Athanasius, Saint Gregory Palamas or Saint Photius...  Let us follow their example and not even invite these thoughts.

Forgive me for saying too much...

SR

PS. I had the opportunity to meet Bishop Kallistos in Cambridge, and I respect him.  I feel his statement above is taken somewhat out of context from his life.  My wife was also one of his flock for a time in Oxford.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2003, 07:46:37 AM by srenalds » Logged

NULL
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2003, 09:56:58 AM »

Brian,

        The male priesthood has little to do with the faith?

Matt
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2003, 10:09:14 AM »

Suggestions of jumping to ROCOR over a statement made by one Bishop, even one as influential as Bishop Kallistos, seem to triviliaze our commitment.

Umm, that was never said. In fact his is what was said,

I will say this, the day world Orthodoxy decides to ordain women as priests, is the day ROCOR membership grows exponentially.

He is saying that if World Orthodoxy did such a thing, people would leave World Orthodoxy for ROCOR, and that is true.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2003, 07:19:40 PM »

Brian,

        The male priesthood has little to do with the faith?

Matt

yes!
 Compared with the Divinity of Our Lord, the Holy Resurrection, the Theotokos, etc ,
 the male priesthood is very far down the list as i said in my response above
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,449


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2003, 07:30:12 PM »

From my reading of that quote, and from speaking to people who have heard Bp Kallistos speak on this topic, I respectfully submit that many of you have it wrong.

I think the Bp overstated when he said he no longer thinks of it as an impossibility (imo it is still an impossibility) but I think the substance of his quote was "we need to stop parroting RC arguments and come up with some good Orthodox arguments."  What's wrong with that?

As far as the other suggestion that women priests is a matter of discipline, I think that is wrong.  I think the theology of priesthood makes it not a disciplinary issue.  Disciplines in my mind are things like fasting, types of penance, which type of liturgy we celebrate, etc.; essentially things that could be changed.  Women in priesthood is an impossibility.

Female diaconate on the other hand is fine with me and I support its restoration.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2003, 07:38:15 PM »

Brian,

        I think you are missing the whole point about the priesthood of Christ, since the bishop alone holds the truth for his flock. We could trivialize a lot of our faith by simply saying that it doesn't compare to the Holy Trinity. In fact, I could just say that going to church is not absolutely required since it's not as important as God. Thus, we have protestants.  :-  Roll Eyes  Tongue

Matthew
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2003, 10:02:17 PM »

Deaconesses were not female deacons. Since we do not have massive amounts of converts that, as catechumens, live at the church and Baptism is no longer done completely nude, there is simply no reason for deaconesses.

This practive was spoken of here: Deaconesses, Baptism and Catechumens
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,449


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2003, 10:17:13 PM »

Deaconesses were female deacons.  Read the prayers of ordination for female deacons.  They were identical in content to the prayers of ordination for a male deacon.  The deaconess simply did not liturgize, it is speculated, although she vested in stole and received communion at the altar.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2003, 11:00:22 PM »

The order of deaconesses is not currently in use in the Church, and in any case the Church does not treat the order of deaconesses as equivalent to that of deacons, since the former do not perform the deacon's liturgical functions. The function of the deaconesses included most of the philanthropic and educational responsibilities  of the deacon, but none of the liturgical functions.

  The primary duties of the deaconess were ministering to women in their  houses and assisting at baptisms. The rationale was that it was not proper for a deacon to go to the house of heathens to visit a believing woman, and it was not proper for a man to anoint a woman during baptism and to receive her as she emerged from the water, because men should not see her unclothed. However, anointing the woman's head, the immersion, and the  pronouncement of the words of baptism were duties reserved to the bishop  or presbyter performing the baptism.  

After her ordination, the bishop handed her the chalice which she placed  on the altar. She had the right to carry and give Holy Communion to sick women. She could not take a ceremonial part in any of the sacraments or in other ceremonies that required the assistance of a deacon.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Boswell
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74

Bi, poly, trans and ex-Orthodox


« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2003, 12:23:00 AM »

Why restore the order of deaconess if there is no need? If there is a shortage of deacons, more men should be ordained. Pretty much the only reason I can see why we should restore it is intellecual novelty-pretty much the only supporters I see of it are Orthodox academics. Anyways, just because the early Church did something doesn't mean we should bring it back. Somewhere I think there's a great quote by St. Justin Popovich on bringing back what has (for one reason or another) been discontinued.

Boswell
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,449


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2003, 12:34:46 AM »

I think we should bring back the order of deaconesses so that women can participate in this ministry of service.  I am sure we could find plenty of things for them to do with their blessing.

I am also glad that Jessica Suchy-Pillalis was tonsured a chanter by Bp Nicholas of the GOA-Detroit some years ago.  She did a PhD dissertation on Tone 3 and even was granted the distinctin of wearing the riassa (rasso, exorasson).

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2003, 12:20:15 PM »

Well, have read a bit more and my concerns have not really been relaxed (nor could they). Now, he IS an Orthodox Christian, so this isn't a bunch of liberal stuff he's saying. He doesn't start from the quote I gave and then get worse. He offered the quote for consideration, and has since been giving various arguments for why females should not be priests. He sometimes comments on the weakness of a point against female priests, though that's to be expected. Still, I worry where this is all going, not so much with Bp. Kallistos, but with those who follow him. When Meyendorff, Schmemann, et al. were saying their "stuff," there were the Florovsky's around to keep them in line. What happens when there are no more Florovsky's in "world Orthodoxy"? This is what I most worry about.

Bp. Kallistos has mentioned Deaconesses as well, and some of his ideas for using them again are thought provoking, though not wholly persuasive. But perhaps with more time he will sway me. Who knows.  Cool
Logged
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2003, 02:49:54 PM »

Perhaps if we looked with prayer, open eyes and hearts at the possibility of the restoration of the Order of Deaconesses we might see the need for this ancient and venerable order which has fallen into disuse?  Perhaps with less male chauvinism?  I would *NEVER* propose the ordination of a women to the Presbyterate.  However, there is ample precedent for the ordination of Deaconesses, and various orders may and have been restored, even by individual Autocephalous Churches, as the needs of the Church are discerned by her Hierarchs.  I find it interesting that the Order of Deaconess is still maintained in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church from time immemorial.

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2003, 04:05:57 PM »

Quote
Perhaps with less male chauvinism?

I believe this is uncalled for. Most of the Orthodox Christians I know, if they err at all, err on the side of giving too much authority to females. For example, many Matushkas (Matushki?) are treated with much greater respect, and given much greater authority, than their position in itself requires.

I think the discussion is based on necessity, which is still up in the air, it's not just about being chauvinistic guys.
Logged
sinjinsmythe
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 737



« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2003, 04:32:45 PM »

Male chauvinism?Huh I agree with Paradosis that this is uncalled for, and that many matushkas are given great respect. Orthodoxy is replete, I mean REPLETE with woman saints and great spiritual mothers. After all, look how much reverance is the given to the mother of our God. Would a chauvinistic religion do such a thing?Huh?? Would chauvinistic males venerate the Theotokos? Or what about the great saints? What about St. Mary of Egypt, whose story of repentance is read every Great Lent. Does a chauvinistic religion do this? Compare this to a real chauvinistic religion such as Islam. Whenever allegations of chauvinism is thrown around about Orthodoxy it makes me :veryangry:  I am sorry for my rant and off topic bent but something like that just hacks me off.  Women do play a role in Orthodoxy, just look around.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2003, 04:38:38 PM by sinjinsmythe » Logged

Life is just one disappointment after another.
srenalds
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2003, 11:01:31 PM »

I was off for the weekend, and when I came back I saw someone made a comment regarding the statement I made earlier...

Let me restate my position...

There was a statement made about jumping to ROCOR... whether it be world Orthodox or one Bishop doesn't matter...  The point is...  Only one Bishop is saying this now, and now we're hearing arguments that if x and x happens there will be people jumping to ROCOR.  I believe we should not plant these ideas in the heads of people, or even ourselves.

Logged

NULL
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2003, 11:21:52 PM »


I am sorry for my rant and off topic bent but something like that just hacks me off.  Women do play a role in Orthodoxy, just look around.


     Well, there ARE Orthodox male chauvinists (I have met some  Wink , unhappy creatures) but this isn't to say that the CHurch itself is chauvinistic (that is a generalization to  absurdity)
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
javamama
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2003, 08:09:48 AM »

WARNING:  Off-topic comment to follow.

As a woman, I feel I might be able to say something from personal knowledge/experience that the kind gentlemen on this site would most likely not want to state themselves:

Women have been, from the dawn of time, seeking to usurp the athority of men in their lives and to take over that which was not given them (us) by God.  There, I said it!

How do I know this?  I'm a woman!  Women already have a place in the Church, in the home, in the business world, in academia, in LIFE...the problem is, we (generally speaking, of course) don't want OUR place...we want YOURS!

So the question is, will giving women a "title" in the Church actually serve a currently-unserved purpose?  Will the Will of God be done more fully if women are given "titles" within the Church?  Will we more likely "go into all the world" if women are given a title and position in the Church?  

I believe the answer to all these questions is "NO".  The only reason I can think of for the ordination of women (with my admittedly limited intelligence) is APPEASEMENT.  And I don't believe that appeasement is a good reason for doing anything.

We already have a vital place of service within the Church -- whether married or single.  Aren't our prayers just as effective as a man's?  Don't we serve by raising children "according to the way they should go"?  Isn't is service to the Church when we sacrifice those things we desire for the good of our families and our brothers & sisters in Christ?  What about serving by cleaning and maintaining the church building itself, bringing meals to those who are sick or bereaved, giving our sons and husbands to ordained service, etc., etc., etc.?

The point is (and I may be very simplistic about this) that to say that women aren't allowed to serve simply because they aren't wearing vestments, don't have a title, and cannot go into the altar is ludicrous!  I think it's more accurate to say that some women (I believe a very minute number) want to be more recognized in their service by titles and outward appearance.  I also think it's safe to say that all of us know the evil that can spring from those thoughts and feelings.

Respectfully...
Logged
Stephen Barrow
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 44



« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2003, 11:41:33 AM »

Christ is Risen!  
Indeed He is Risen!!

Oh, where to begin?

First it should be evidently clear by the way this post is digressing that the Church does need to discuss this issue.  There is no Orthodox consensus on what it is that bars women to the major orders. While it appears to be true that the prayers are the same for both the Deacon and Deaconess it appears to me that they were/are  NOT the same.  There are those who are more knowledgeable than me who are not convinced that the prayers used were not the same and thus that the same Charisms were NOT received by both.

Justin:

You state that it is speculated that that they did not serve in a liturgical function.  Are there any writings that suggest that they did?  The only mention of female clergy that I've ever read about, are clergy of heretical sects during the first five to six hundred years of Christianity(maybe the Gnostics??).

While I have no problem with women cantors I would like to see the prayer(s) used by his Grace Bishop Nicholas (GOA-Detroit).  The prayers used from the Hapgood service book, used during my being set aside as Reader, include an exhortation about the office of Reader being the first step towards the Priesthood.  I don't know if the prayer is different in the Greek church than the Russian but clearly the prayers in the Russian church (which the OCA uses) either cannot be used or must be modified.  

As an aside, my parish has women readers, none set aside by the Bishop, who receive their blessing from the priest by going up to the Ambo during Holy  God.  Father then comes out of the Altar and gives the blessing to read.  There always seems to be a question on how the women Readers receive the blessing from the priest.

Paradosis:

Chill out!  If we believe that the Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ then it should not matter who the new Florovsky is.  

It should be pointed out that Father Schmemann, in his Journals published by SVS Press a couple of years ago, says that, intuitively, women cannot be priests but that it can only be known by those that are within the Church.    

While I'm not happy with everything that some folks have to say at St. Vlad's, often what is reported to have been said or being taught is out right wrong.  St. Vlad's may very widely known to us in America but American Orthodoxy in all of her flavors, OCA, ROCOR, GOA, Antiochian is but a "drop in the bucket".  To my knowledge there is NO sane group that questions the Seminary's Orthodoxy. E.g. Father John Behr of St. Vlad's gave a lecture at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville (ROCOR) during Great Lent.

Remember the Church is here to save us, we are not to here to save the Church.

You have been Orthodox for about 2-3 years if I'm not mistaken.  Could it be that in your exposure to Orthodoxy you have not seen any male chauvinism?  I no longer consider myself a convert due to my conversion taking place almost 25 years ago (I'll be 43 this year).  I attended Orthodox services for two years prior to my chrismation on the Feast of the Protection of the Most Holy Theotokos in 1978.   27 out of my 43 years have been in an Orthodox environment.  I have been around enough to know that it does exist. I believe you over reacted to Hypo-Ortho.  I'm familiar with him through his posts and believe him  to be of sober judgement and a traditional, wholesome Orthodox mindset.  I don't see anywhere in Hypo's post where he calls you a chauvinist.  He is speaking in general.

Matushki deserve the respect they get. In a married priesthood we do receive the package - Priest and their spouse. They should be the example of Christian marriage set before the parish.  This is why not only a man being considered for Ordination but his wife too is to "be of one spouse".

On a personal note:

I know find myself explaining all kinds of things to my seven year old daughter.  She is getting to the point, I can just feel it, where she will ask why girls cannot serve in the Altar.  This will of course lead us to the question of why we do not have women priests.  My daughter is a bright, average girl who will analyze all answers she is given.  I believe I will explain that the idea of equality (which is what it always seems to boil down to whether I like it or not) is not to be confused with SAMENESS.  Only women can be mothers and only men can be fathers but yet all women are not called to bear children and not all men are called to be fathers.  It does not matter that science says we don't need the other sex for procreation or that one day men will be able to carry children. The fact remains that only women can be mothers and men, fathers.  

So it is in the Holy Church regarding the Holy Priesthood. Only men can be Priests, yet not every male is called.

javamama is right about appeasement.  Too often the call for women priests seems to be tied to empowerment and power sharing.  I find these concepts foreign to the Priesthood. No one is entitled to or has a right to Ordination.

Please forgive the ramblings of another down sized American with too much time on my hands.  

I pray I did not offend anyone.

Stephen Barrow

     


Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,449


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2003, 11:46:43 AM »

Thanks for a common sense answer, Stephen. While I support female diaconante I will never push the issue in a parish setting if I ever am called to serve in a parish, as I do not want to confuse the faithful.  In my writings I may study the issue more and defend it, but it is not actually one of my "pet subjects."

Has anyone here actually read Women and the Priesthood by SVS Press? I'd like a summary of it in the book review section if anyone wishes.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2003, 11:55:46 AM »

Stephen, sensible words, dwelling on them... Smiley

Anastasios, I mentioned in the first post that I'm reading that book, it was the reason I started the thread in the first place Wink
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,449


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2003, 11:59:37 AM »

Stephen, sensible words, dwelling on them... Smiley

Anastasios, I mentioned in the first post that I'm reading that book, it was the reason I started the thread in the first place Wink

Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot--I only skim most of the posts on the forum since I have so much on my shoulders ;-)

I also wanted to let anyone else who has read the book feel free to post his/her reactions to the book per se.

Thanks!

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
sinjinsmythe
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 737



« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2003, 03:28:31 PM »

Javamama, that was a very candid and an honest admission, especially since  you are a woman. I agree with you though.
Logged

Life is just one disappointment after another.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2003, 03:43:29 PM »

Anastasios

Perfectly understandable Smiley  I think I will indeed post a couple comments when I'm done with it. So far (with the exception of about two paragraphs from Bp. Kallistos which shocked me), the book has been very good (I'm about 1/4 done).  Smiley  Even the article by Bp. Kallistos was good to a large extent (excluding the two paragraphs).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2003, 03:44:54 PM by Paradosis » Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2003, 10:22:19 AM »

  Actually, one of the things that made me start to doubt infallibility in the Roman Catholic Church was a statement by Cardinal Ratzinger that the matter of women priests came under the heading of dogma and so infallibility was invoked.  It is not.  It is a matter of Church discipline and order and is still open to discussion.  I don't see Orthodoxy ordaining women priests soon if at all.  This is not that important to me.  The Faith is about more important things such as the Nature of Our Lord, the Holy Theotokos.  Those are the important things not whether there are women priests or deaconesses.  

                        Peace,
                          Brian


Certainly there are things that are more important than whether or not women are allowed to be priests or deacons.

There are also certain sins that are worse than others: murder being worse than petty theft, for example.

No one would suggest we ignore stealing to concentrate on condemning murder, would they?

I don't want to stir up controversy on a thread that seems to be fading, but I do happen to think this is an important issue.

There is no way I would ever countenance the ordination of women as priests. No way.

Call me a "male chauvinist" if you wish, but I feel very strongly about this.

And I do not think I am alone.

When sinjin made his remark about the exponential growth of ROCOR if world Orthodoxy begins ordaining women priests, I agreed with him.

I still do.

I don't think he was "planting ideas." Neither am I. He was merely stating a fact.

I view the ordination of women to the priesthood as a sign of apostasy. If there are folks who don't like that, well, okay.

I am more open to the office of deaconess, as I understand it has some ancient justification. But there is no ancient, and certainly no Apostolic, justification for women serving as priests. None.

I disagree that the ordination of women priests is merely a matter of Church discipline. I think Ratzinger is right.

Pagans have women priests. Christians do not.


Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2003, 10:33:13 AM »

Linus 7<<Pagans have women priests.  Christians do not.>>

I couldn't agree more.  And women priests are correctly styled as "priestesses" without any problem by me.  I have ongoing "arguments" about this issue with a syncretistic "Christian Buddhist," i.e., a Baptist who also is an active Buddhist meditationist with all the gear that goes along with that.

The diaconate, however, as I posted earlier, is a separate issue.

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2003, 10:43:39 AM »

Quote
The diaconate, however, as I posted earlier, is a separate issue.

Hypo-Ortho

Agreed.

But Orthodox priestesses? Never!

(I am glad we agree on that, too, Hypo!)  Grin
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
srenalds
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2003, 12:44:48 PM »

Allow me to clarify my opinion on the topic further...  The following is my opinion, so I don't think it's worth arguing about.

I believe the Orthodox Church brings its children up right, even if we don't.  The women who would likely be qualified for the title of "priestess" wouldn't assume they can become one.  They would chase after their salvation with much philotimo rather than worldly titles.  The would either become monastics or abbesses (or live their life like one) rather than assume a title so foreign to the Orthodox tradition.  Father Epiphanios says this better than I do.

What I was saying about "planting a seed" was regarding the statement of people jumping to ROCOR based on the Eastern Orthodox Church ordaining women.  I've read that sin starts with a suggestion, not with an action, and for some the suggestion may be all they need.  We should not even suggest that 1) The Orthodox Church might one day ordain women 2) There are other viable options to the Orthodox Church.

Anyway, I don't believe my opinion on the subject really matters.  I won't be leaving the Church for any reason, because it's a hospital of the soul and will withstand the gates of Hades.  The Saints who came before us didn't start their own Churches or leave the Church (even when it seemed the entire Church was under the thumb of Apostasy), but those whom are now considered to be schismatics, heretics and apostates did.

SR

PS.  Linus7, I believe our feelings on the topic are close, but I think my awkward delivery fueled more of a debate than we both desired.
Logged

NULL
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2003, 01:16:14 PM »

You seem confused... ROCOR is Orthodox.
Logged
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2003, 01:26:49 PM »

You seem confused... ROCOR is Orthodox.

And Justin, I agree: the ROCOR is indeed Orthodox.  However, it must be admitted that there are many EO's who question the necessity for the ROCOR's continued separation from the MP since the fall of Soviet Communism, especially since the ROCOR was originally set up as a *TEMPORARY* arrangement under terms dictated by St. Patriarch Tikhon the New-Confessor when the MP was in Soviet "captivity."  The continued separation has put the ROCOR, in the eyes of many EO's, in an "irregular" status at best or, as one ACROD website puts it, in a "semi-canonical" status.

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2003, 01:29:03 PM »

Yeah, that's fair, many believe that.
Logged
srenalds
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2003, 01:45:07 PM »

Many believe this and do you blame them?  I seem to have struck a parallel thread here...  Hopefully, this will be answered on the other thread.

SR

PS.  Forgive the numerous short responses, I'm just trying to graduate out of "newbiedom" as quickly as possible.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 01:48:18 PM by srenalds » Logged

NULL
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2003, 08:33:37 PM »

Quote
What I was saying about "planting a seed" was regarding the statement of people jumping to ROCOR based on the Eastern Orthodox Church ordaining women.  I've read that sin starts with a suggestion, not with an action, and for some the suggestion may be all they need.  We should not even suggest that 1) The Orthodox Church might one day ordain women 2) There are other viable options to the Orthodox Church.

Anyway, I don't believe my opinion on the subject really matters.  I won't be leaving the Church for any reason, because it's a hospital of the soul and will withstand the gates of Hades.  The Saints who came before us didn't start their own Churches or leave the Church (even when it seemed the entire Church was under the thumb of Apostasy), but those whom are now considered to be schismatics, heretics and apostates did.

steve -

I realize we really do agree on the subject of priestesses, and I like the way you characterized true Orthodox Christian women as those who would not seek such a position; but they are not the ones we have to fear.

I disagree with you about the tack of avoiding discussion of a topic like this, especially when the OP provides evidence that an Orthodox bishop and popular author suggests that consideration of priestesses is "open."

I will not be leaving the Church either - EVER. Nevertheless, the possibility remains, however dismal and dire the prospect, that much of what today passes for "world Orthodoxy" may leave the Church, while still claiming to be her.

You see the distinction?

If world Orthodoxy began ordaining priestesses (terrible to contemplate, I know), then it would be world Orthodoxy that had left the Church, not us.

It would not be the first time such a mass apostasy has occurred. During the Arian controversy there was a period in which it seemed the whole Orthodox world had gone Arian. St. Athanasius and a few stalwarts here and there held out.

In the West, after 1054, the Orthodox there had the very Church pulled out from under them.

I pray that such a thing does not happen again. But I think we should discuss the possibility and express our views, so that we all know where we stand.

ROCOR may be somewhat controversial, but it is Orthodox. I think the reason it was mentioned as an alternative is that ROCOR is known as a bulwark of conservative, traditionalist Orthodoxy. I think most of us believe that ROCOR will NEVER ordain priestesses, which is certainly to its credit.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2003, 10:40:18 PM »

In all fairness, Linus, I don't know of any SCOBA hierarchs (with the possible exception of one GOA hierarch) who would even consider the possibility of the ordination of priestesses in the Orthodox Church.  One does not have to run to the ROCOR as the "last bastion" of conservative, traditional Orthodox Christianity.  

Oh, and in case anyone has forgotten, if Holy Tradition is not a "Living Tradition" (as the late Protopresbyter John Meyendorff, of blessed memory, put it), then it is nothing but *dead traditionalism* fit for a museum and not the Holy Tradition that lives in the Church vivified by the Holy Spirit at all!

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Tags: priestess ordination of women priesthood Ordination priests Metr. Kallistos Ware deaconess 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.124 seconds with 71 queries.