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Poll
Question: What is the future of the OCA as a result of the scandal??
The Antiochians and the OCA will merge - 4 (6.7%)
It will continue on like nothing happened - 28 (46.7%)
The OCA will dissolve and go back to the mother church - 3 (5%)
The OCA will dissolve and go into various jurisdictions - 11 (18.3%)
Other (Post your opinion) - 14 (23.3%)
Total Voters: 60

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Author Topic: What do you think will happen to the OCA??  (Read 7175 times) Average Rating: 0
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Agabus
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« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2010, 07:00:31 PM »

What was this whole scandal about?
Money. The most visible result of the scandal was Met. Herman's retirement and the election of Met. Jonah.

For more, read this.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 07:00:47 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2010, 09:49:49 PM »

What scandal?
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2010, 11:57:14 PM »

What scandal?
Was a few years ago, and had been going on for about a decade.
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2010, 12:07:11 AM »

I just found this post very interesting in hindsight for its foresight. It may be even more interesting, depending on how this week turns out.

Totally unrelated to the larger topic, but I couldn't help but smile at the irony of you highlighting a poster's ability to make prognostications/intimations about ecclesiastical goings-on. At this point, it's getting hard to remember how many melodramatic ones you've made before Chambesy, and, now, in the process leading up to the EA. As ozgeorge might say: good on ya for not losing your spunk (if that's the right word for continually touching a hot stove).  It does keep things interesting, though! Wink

The resurrection of this thread reminded me that I never asked what "melodramatic prognstications" were being referenced.
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« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2010, 02:21:30 AM »

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.
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« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2010, 11:13:44 AM »

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.

But his statements, and the possible dissipation of of the OCA (in the event of a united jurisdiction) would have absolutely no relevance to this thread, this thread is about the financial scandal in the OCA, and that has nothing to do with the tomos, or the Episcopal Assembly.
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« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2010, 12:25:47 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 12:26:37 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2010, 01:06:40 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.
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« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2010, 01:28:52 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches
Right until the very end part.

The Tomos of 1970, and the support Moscow has advanced for it, and the ecclesiology/missionology and canonical theories that Moscow has held which support it paint Moscow into a corner out of which it cannot exit without conceding the Phanar's arguments (including canon 28). Not going to happen.


There is no reason for it either.  Nothing is would be gained, and giiven the rhetoric over the recent treaty etc. it seems Russophobia is alive and well in the US.  The preponderance of Urkainians means that Canada won't be rushing into Moscow's arms either.  Can't speak for Mexico.

There is a lot of talk about this in ROCOR, but I see little in the OCA or the Moscow Patriarchate. Quite the opposite.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 01:29:38 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2010, 01:33:39 PM »

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.
what statement would that be?  I know His Beatitude made a number of statements that many read what they wanted-i.e. abolition of the OCA and foreign control of the Church in North America-into them.  HB, however, held out no hope of any such thing.
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« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2010, 01:44:45 PM »

From the Metropolitan's keynote address to the Church in Canada. The full transcript can be found on Ancient Faith Radio
Quote
“We did not take into account the necessary conciliar dimensions of our autocephaly, either on the local level or on the international level. We discounted the other Orthodox communities in America expecting them to submit to us, and we tried to persuade the other churches to accept our autocephaly even if it was anomalous and problematic. None of this was helpful. The situation in the world was also something radically different 40 years ago when then autocephaly was given. It was the height of the Cold War. It was the time of active persecution of the churches under the Communists, and there was no free interchange between the churches. The autocephaly marks a beginning of an ecclesiastical self-consciousness of the OCA as a uniquely North American church, but it has now also 40 years of additional maturity.

The autocephaly was right for its time, but the times have changed, and there are new demands on us. We’re being called to enter in to the greater conciliar dialogue of the churches in a way that has never existed before both on the local and the pan-Orthodox worldwide levels. And how we understand our autocephaly, or have we have understood our autocephaly, has become an obstacle rather than an aid to our participation. Over the next several months, the bishops and other leaders of the Church will gather to discuss the question of how to proceed. Nothing has been decided as of yet. But if we are to be full participants in the Episcopal Assembly process, we will have to alter our position.”
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« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2010, 02:41:14 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction. They may decide to remind everyone.
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« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2010, 03:00:50 PM »

From the Metropolitan's keynote address to the Church in Canada. The full transcript can be found on Ancient Faith Radio
Quote
“We did not take into account the necessary conciliar dimensions of our autocephaly, either on the local level or on the international level. We discounted the other Orthodox communities in America expecting them to submit to us, and we tried to persuade the other churches to accept our autocephaly even if it was anomalous and problematic. None of this was helpful. The situation in the world was also something radically different 40 years ago when then autocephaly was given. It was the height of the Cold War. It was the time of active persecution of the churches under the Communists, and there was no free interchange between the churches. The autocephaly marks a beginning of an ecclesiastical self-consciousness of the OCA as a uniquely North American church, but it has now also 40 years of additional maturity.

The autocephaly was right for its time, but the times have changed, and there are new demands on us. We’re being called to enter in to the greater conciliar dialogue of the churches in a way that has never existed before both on the local and the pan-Orthodox worldwide levels. And how we understand our autocephaly, or have we have understood our autocephaly, has become an obstacle rather than an aid to our participation. Over the next several months, the bishops and other leaders of the Church will gather to discuss the question of how to proceed. Nothing has been decided as of yet. But if we are to be full participants in the Episcopal Assembly process, we will have to alter our position.”
It doesn't seem that His Beatuitue has altered his position:
Quote
Whatever the particularities, we remain steadfast in our vision that the only acceptable solution for North America is a fully inclusive, united autocephalous Church with a single synod of bishops, electing our own bishops and primate, and controlling our own life. We will remain committed to a vision of conciliarity, of catholicity on all levels, affirming that all Orthodox Christians should have a voice in the life of the Church. We are absolutely committed to the vision that our task is missionary, to bring the gospel to Americans, and to incorporate Americans into the communion of the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2010, 03:13:33 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction.
no, it is not. At least that is what the Patrairch of Moscow and His Holy Synod of Russia have said
Quote
The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.
The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

The Exarchate of North and South America, together with the dioceses in the U.S.A. and Canada which comprised it, is abolished.

ALEXIS, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Members of the Holy Synod:

1. Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna, PIMEN
2. Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod, NIKODIM
3. Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, Exarch of the Ukraine, PHILARET
4. Metropolitan of Orel and Briansk, PALLADY
5. Metropolitan of Alma-Ata and Khazakstan, IOSIF
6. Metropolitan of Yaroslavl and Rostov, IOANN
7. Archbishop of Irkutsk and Tchita, VENIAMIN
8. Archbishop of Ufa and Sterlitamak, IOV
9. Archbishop of New York and the Aleutians, Exarch of North and South America, IONAFAN
10. Bishop of Kishinev and Moldavia, VARFOLOMEY
11. Bishop of Tula and Belev, IUVENALY
12. Bishop of Chernigov and Nezhinsk, VLADIMIR
13. Bishop of Smolensk and Viazmia, GEDEON
14. Chancellor of the Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan of Tallin and Estonia, ALEXEI
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
Русская Православная Церковь в США/Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
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Marc1152
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« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2011, 02:13:54 PM »

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction.
no, it is not. At least that is what the Patrairch of Moscow and His Holy Synod of Russia have said
Quote
The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.
The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

The Exarchate of North and South America, together with the dioceses in the U.S.A. and Canada which comprised it, is abolished.

ALEXIS, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Members of the Holy Synod:

1. Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna, PIMEN
2. Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod, NIKODIM
3. Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, Exarch of the Ukraine, PHILARET
4. Metropolitan of Orel and Briansk, PALLADY
5. Metropolitan of Alma-Ata and Khazakstan, IOSIF
6. Metropolitan of Yaroslavl and Rostov, IOANN
7. Archbishop of Irkutsk and Tchita, VENIAMIN
8. Archbishop of Ufa and Sterlitamak, IOV
9. Archbishop of New York and the Aleutians, Exarch of North and South America, IONAFAN
10. Bishop of Kishinev and Moldavia, VARFOLOMEY
11. Bishop of Tula and Belev, IUVENALY
12. Bishop of Chernigov and Nezhinsk, VLADIMIR
13. Bishop of Smolensk and Viazmia, GEDEON
14. Chancellor of the Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan of Tallin and Estonia, ALEXEI
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
Русская Православная Церковь в США/Russian Orthodox Church in the USA

He said Moscow's daughter Church the OCA has jurisdiction. Maybe I didnt read far enough.

North America was first evangelized by Russians ( St. Herman, etc.)

Russia had jurisdiction

All communication stopped due to the Revolution

Other Jurisdictions who had set up shop asserted themselves within their own communities

Moscow grants independence to the OCA

The OCA technically has jurisdiction in North America

The ex-pat Russians (Rocor) make peace with Moscow. They allow an irregular situation to continue

Rocor and the OCA will eventually work out their relationship

Technically they will have Jurisdiction in North America

The Greeks and Arabs and Serbs and Romanians etc have no dejuire standing when you come down to it.

Big Ego's and defacto rule over various fiefdoms maintain the current irregular situation

I would think Moscow would back an OCA-Rocor leadership in North
America..

Stay tuned

« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 02:15:41 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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