What do you think will happen to the OCA??

[Bono Vox]

Here is an interesting poll in light of the OCA scandal. There has been much talk about the future of the OCA. I am interested what Y'all have to say.

[ozgeorge]

I chose "other" because I don't know what the future holds. But I do know that God holds the future, so I'm happy to leave it in His hands.

[Innocent]

I chose "The OCA will dissolve and go into various jurisdictions". I believe there are a few factions within the OCA so getting all to go with one jurisdiction will not be possible. I know people who would never join certain jurisdictions so this leads me to believe that there will be people going in multiple directions.

I pray that the OCA cleans itself up and continues on!   

[aserb]

I took the pessimistic route and said that it will continue along as if nothing ever heappened. Some may leave for other jurisdictions and some may leave Orthodoxy altogether. But Orthodoxy will survive and the OCA will. I believe, clean up and move on.

[cholmes]

It's still too early to say.  Based on his recent words, I think there's a strong possibility that Archbishop Job may take the drastic step of leaving the OCA and attempting to bring as much of his flock with him as possible.  If that happens, the OCA is done.  The symbolism of such an event would be too powerful to fathom.

Short of that happening, it really depends on how much of the laity is even aware of the extent of the scandal.  If enough people decide they've had enough and leave, it could have a ripple effect.  If it's just a few parishes, the OCA will be emboldened to continue as they always have.

Of course, the wild card in all this is the U.S. government - should the IRS or some other federal agency get involved, things could go downhill real fast.

[Nacho]

I'm doubtful the OCA will have a future. To the extent of the corruptness in the hierarchy, I'm very pessimistic about the current situation. Most of the OCA members probably feel the same. Things also seem to be getting worse as of late, which is obviously not the direction most of us hoped our Bishops would be heading. Archbishop Job & Seraphim of Canada apparently are a minority that have voiced their concerns many times over, the rest either don't want to hear the message or simply just don't care. I guess this is what happens when you have 'effeminate' men at the top running things. I would only hope for some men of God with some testicular fortitude and a calling to run the OCA in the future; that's if the current crop doesn't destroy it. If things do go sour, I hope that my Bishop would seek refuge in the Antiochian Archdiocese, which has a much healthier administration.   

[Aristibule]

Other. I don't see the whole OCA merging into the AOA, and there are plenty of folk in the latter that won't be interested in flinging the doors wide open - with or without scandal. Some might join the Antiochians, but I don't think it will be a 'merger' - they'd have to adapt to the Antiochian way of doing things (running the Church, liturgy, etc.) Things can't continue on like nothing happened, because something *did* happen. I don't think the OCA will 'dissolve' either. Some might leave for other jurisdictions, or return to the Russian Church. However, there is no telling what that will look like or the extent (it could be merely individuals and a few clergy, a few parishes, or at the most a diocese.) Odds are that some part of the OCA will continue as the OCA - particularly those who have a strong attachment to that identity, or see no wrong doing in the happenings. How such a body might relate to the rest of Orthodoxy, I can't predict. There will still in all likelihood be an OCA for quite a while though, even if it is smaller.

 

[Bono Vox]

The bottom line is that the good old boys network has to go. The OCA administration is like a clique playing musical chairs. I say out with the old and in with the new. I think that the deeper the Metropolitian stonewalls, the greater his dimise shall be. This is an issue that affects us all in the OCA.

[AMM]

It's still too early to say.  Based on his recent words, I think there's a strong possibility that Archbishop Job may take the drastic step of leaving the OCA and attempting to bring as much of his flock with him as possible.

That would certainly be messy.  I would think one of the main problems would be they wouldn't be able to take their physical plants with them.

[Aristibule]

You're right, welkodox - and I think none of us were thinking of that right off the bat. Where property is involved things can be pretty messy. Also, property can often guarantee that more folk will stay with whomever can establish legal claim to the property than will often leave. Getting folk to give up the place where they've poured their time, money, memories - where they have their family remembered? That is very, very hard.

[Starlight]

I vote for other. I still believe that administration will be cleaned up and OCA will continue on healthier, bigger and stronger. It will be not easy it all, of course. Let us hope for the best. During the times of persecution, there were things much worse.

[AMM]

It's too difficult to say I think what will happen.  It certainly seems providential that the Ecumenical Patriarchate never recognized the tomos though.

Even if the church carries on essentially unchanged, what does that really mean?  I read this letter by Fr. Thomas Hopko written about a year ago - http://www.ocanews.org/news/Hopkoletter319.html 

It seems amazing to think the situation now even seems a great deal more dire than when he wrote the letter.  One of the most striking things in the letter is this

the misrepresentation in and outside the church of its statistical figures (such as that our church has 400,00 members when less than 30,000 identify themselves as members)

30,000?  I had assumed it was around 60 to 75 thousand.  Either way, the fact may be that the church that is supposed to be the Orthodox Church in America might not even be the second largest jurisdiction here, and perhaps is shrinking.  It is certainly in no shape to serve as a unifying force in Orthodoxy, and their leadership I think it is safe to say is not one that people could rally around.

All of this is a far cry from what their leaders originally set out to do.  I think they not only need to think of what they can do that might allow the OCA to survive in some form, I think they need to consider what is right for Orthodoxy as a whole in this country.

You're right, welkodox - and I think none of us were thinking of that right off the bat.

Ari, the other issue is that from what I have seen there is a fair amount of mutual suspicion between the AOA and OCA and very different cultures inside both.  Another reason why I don't see a merger.

[Elisha]

No, the 60-75K is more accurate.  There are "members" and communicants/adherents.  For "members", only 18+, confess/commune >=1 per year and give to the parish are counted.  We count around 100 at my parish...even though >=150 show up and between 100 to 150 Commune.

[Tamara]

It's too difficult to say I think what will happen.  It certainly seems providential that the Ecumenical Patriarchate never recognized the tomos though.

I think recognizing the tomos has nothing do with this problem. The GOA is having similar moral problems at this very moment but they have more $$$ to hide the problems.

[AMM]

The tomos is not directly related to the problem, I was merely saying it is fortunate it was not recognized.

Please post what you think is happening that is similar in the GOA.

[Fr. George]

I think recognizing the tomos has nothing do with this problem. The GOA is having similar moral problems at this very moment but they have more $$$ to hide the problems.

No amount of money hides problems in the Churches.  We don't have a similar problem with regards to stealing from people's donations; the only thing that people are in an upheaval about is the severity of punishment and notification timing for our clergymen who have been involved in sexual misconduct (whether it be adultery, pedophilia, homosexuality, or whatever).  In the most recent case, a priest was suspended for alleged sexual misconduct-pedophilia, and (a) people thought suspension wasn't enough (even though it was probably only a preliminary step to get him out until they can finish the investigation), (b) while the local parish was informed immediately, the national church wasn't told until 6 months later.

The rest of our "problems" are relatively minor and have more to do with an administrative outlook and ecclesiology that differs from what many of our prominent laymen think...

[AMM]

Thank you cleveland.

I think one of the worst possible scenarios for the OCA is for lack of action by the hierarchy to spawn Protestant like movements within that jurisdiction.  I have seen it pop up in various comments and opinions.  It at first surprised me to see the OCL getting their hooks in the OCA a little while back, but it no longer does.

[Cowboy]

The crisis in the OCA is NOT ONLY financial; it is a crisis of spiritualty. Our hierarchs, with the known exception of Archbishop Job, have become more concerned with earthly power, riches and prestige rather than being shepards and servants of their flocks. The stench of spiritual rot emanating from Syosset, NY (OCA headquarters) can be smelled in every OCA parish.
 
However, the good news is that the hierarchs and central administration of the church are but one tiny part of the Body of Christ. We, the faithful, and in many cases our Priests (but not all) , in hundreds of parishes throughout the US are the true Body of Christ. The OCA hierarchs by their very actions have shown that they have lost the ability to see Truth and Light. They prefer the darkness of the evil one. Otherwise what is there to fear from total transparency? (in EVERY jurisdiction-not just the OCA)

These evil men have made themselves irrelevant to the Body of Christ.

What will happen next is anyone's guess. But the life of the Church will go on in individual Parishes, irrespective of what our Hierarchs say or do. They cannot be trusted any longer and therefore will be increasingly ignored. Donations to the central church are drying up to the point that it's not even possible for them to construct a realistic budget. A movement has been started to choke the central church administration financially. I fully support this.

The OCA will survive this crisis because it is a crisis of leadership, not one of loss of Faith of the Gospels on the part of the faithful. We the faithful ARE the OCA, not the men who have chosen the world over the Kingdom of God. We pray for them, but can no longer follow them.

Cowboy

[TinaG]

I think one of the worst possible scenarios for the OCA is for lack of action by the hierarchy to spawn Protestant like movements within that jurisdiction.  I have seen it pop up in various comments and opinions.  It at first surprised me to see the OCL getting their hooks in the OCA a little while back, but it no longer does.

Welkodox - I must be dense this morning, but can you explain this a little more.  I don't understand the connection.  

Whenever I read comments on the OCA scandal I'm always suprised at what's going on.  Down here in south Texas, we're so far removed from the central administration and it's problems that no one is taking this mess very seriously.  It just never comes up in conversation or has any impact on our day-to-day operations.  Maybe we've got a la-la-la, everything's gonna be fine attitude, but I think the OCA has overcome issues as big as this before and will survive.  Let's clean house, get new accountability and move on with the important stuff.  

If we don't, this will destroy all the groundwork that has been made towards Orthodox unity in this country.  If the OCA goes under (which I'm not inclined to believe), we certainly can't be crawling back to the old country like irresponsible teenagers who blew all their allowance on beer and parties.   Oops, sorry Dad, give me another chance will 'ya, and by the way, can I have a twenty for gas?

[Bono Vox]

The crisis in the OCA is NOT ONLY financial; it is a crisis of spiritualty. Our hierarchs, with the known exception of Archbishop Job, have become more concerned with earthly power, riches and prestige rather than being shepards and servants of their flocks. The stench of spiritual rot emanating from Syosset, NY (OCA headquarters) can be smelled in every OCA parish.
 
However, the good news is that the hierarchs and central administration of the church are but one tiny part of the Body of Christ. We, the faithful, and in many cases our Priests (but not all) , in hundreds of parishes throughout the US are the true Body of Christ. The OCA hierarchs by their very actions have shown that they have lost the ability to see Truth and Light. They prefer the darkness of the evil one. Otherwise what is there to fear from total transparency? (in EVERY jurisdiction-not just the OCA)

These evil men have made themselves irrelevant to the Body of Christ.

What will happen next is anyone's guess. But the life of the Church will go on in individual Parishes, irrespective of what our Hierarchs say or do. They cannot be trusted any longer and therefore will be increasingly ignored. Donations to the central church are drying up to the point that it's not even possible for them to construct a realistic budget. A movement has been started to choke the central church administration financially. I fully support this.

The OCA will survive this crisis because it is a crisis of leadership, not one of loss of Faith of the Gospels on the part of the faithful. We the faithful ARE the OCA, not the men who have chosen the world over the Kingdom of God. We pray for them, but can no longer follow them.

Cowboy you make a good point. Should the OCA not survive this crisis, it is possible it might still bring about Orthodox unity in America. If the churces go back to the Mother churches in various jurisdicitions, the Ecumenical Patriarch will have to listen to the sister churches when their leaders call for America to be elevated from a daughter to a sister church. This could also solve the problem between ROCOR and the OCA, especially if ROCOR goes back in communion with Moscow.

[cholmes]

Well said Cowboy! 

[Elisha]

Whenever I read comments on the OCA scandal I'm always suprised at what's going on.  Down here in south Texas, we're so far removed from the central administration and it's problems that no one is taking this mess very seriously.  It just never comes up in conversation or has any impact on our day-to-day operations.  Maybe we've got a la-la-la, everything's gonna be fine attitude, but I think the OCA has overcome issues as big as this before and will survive.  Let's clean house, get new accountability and move on with the important stuff. 

If we don't, this will destroy all the groundwork that has been made towards Orthodox unity in this country.  If the OCA goes under (which I'm not inclined to believe), we certainly can't be crawling back to the old country like irresponsible teenagers who blew all their allowance on beer and parties.   Oops, sorry Dad, give me another chance will 'ya, and by the way, can I have a twenty for gas?

Thank you, Tina.  Similar out here on the West Coast.  Many of us are aware of things, but it doesn't affect us.  No need to act like a bunch of Chicken Littles.

[Tamara]

No amount of money hides problems in the Churches.  We don't have a similar problem with regards to stealing from people's donations; the only thing that people are in an upheaval about is the severity of punishment and notification timing for our clergymen who have been involved in sexual misconduct (whether it be adultery, pedophilia, homosexuality, or whatever).  In the most recent case, a priest was suspended for alleged sexual misconduct-pedophilia, and (a) people thought suspension wasn't enough (even though it was probably only a preliminary step to get him out until they can finish the investigation), (b) while the local parish was informed immediately, the national church wasn't told until 6 months later.

The rest of our "problems" are relatively minor and have more to do with an administrative outlook and ecclesiology that differs from what many of our prominent laymen think...

Cleveland,

The Antiochians also have had and still have these problems too. Many pedophiles and practicing homosexuals have not been defrocked. Instead they are dumped by the Antiochians because we cannot afford the lawsuits associated with them. Dumping them so other jurisdictions will end up picking them up is wrong. The GOA has spent $10 million dollars to settle sexual abuse cases according  to Michael Jaharis, Vice-chair of the Metropolitan council. In the bay area we have one former GOA priest who is dying of AIDS. There are lawsuits pending against the GOA due to this former priest. The OCA's problems stem from immorality at a high level. In the OCA situation the leaders had to steal from the people in an effort to keep things hidden.

I think one of the worst possible scenarios for the OCA is for lack of action by the hierarchy to spawn Protestant like movements within that jurisdiction.  I have seen it pop up in various comments and opinions.  It at first surprised me to see the OCL getting their hooks in the OCA a little while back, but it no longer does.

Andrew, The OCA does need the OCL. They have the OCA News. The OCL wants to focus on unity. Lay groups who see how accountablity is trampled upon will continue to pop-up until the leaders in all the jurisdictions start to deal with the problems according to our faith. Covering thing up and hiding immorality is always wrong.

ps. Lay groups have been started by lay members in all of the jurisdictions. The latest group to enter is called Orthodox Reform http://orthodoxreform.org/   I can't tell who started this group because they list problems in the GOA and the OCA. It is possible groups of laypeople in more than one jurisdiction have started this group. It is hard to say.

[AMM]

Tina

I must be dense this morning, but can you explain this a little more.  I don't understand the connection.

The situation could lead to a radical re-orienting of the church from a hierarchal institution to an organization with lay people at the helm and bishops and priests as puppets.  You can see it in various ways from groups like the OCL or the “Orthodoxreform” site (and reform is a good choice of words).  Look who the latter site links to – the Roman Catholic group Voice of the Faithful.  I would look in to them if you are unaware what they are about.

The other possibility (and it has happened with VOTF) is you will have people that will not only push for the Protestantizing of the church through lay control, but they may very well want to introduce other radical changes.  Don’t be surprised if you start to see things said like “maybe it’s time for married bishops” etc., etc.

If we don't, this will destroy all the groundwork that has been made towards Orthodox unity in this country.

The claim to autocephalous status by the OCA is one of the major impediments to Orthodox unity in this country.  To hobble along as they are and still claim this status will continue to set the prospect of unity back.  Something in this regard has to give.

Tamara, the OCA needs the OCL and their revisionist agenda like they need a hole in the head.

[Tamara]

Tamara, the OCA needs the OCL and their revisionist agenda like they need a hole in the head.

My mistake...I meant to write the OCA doesn't need the OCL because they have the OCAnews.

[Fr. George]

My mistake...I meant to write the OCA doesn't need the OCL because they have the OCAnews.

This goes back to my original point about the OCL (I made in another thread): they've got so much on their platform that it's hard to take them seriously; OCAnews, on the other hand, has very few planks that are treated more seriously - and it allows them to be taken more seriously.  OCAN is focusing on the scandals and their resolution; OCL is working on scandals, the charter, women in priesthood, and a myriad of other things.

[Tamara]

This goes back to my original point about the OCL (I made in another thread): they've got so much on their platform that it's hard to take them seriously; OCAnews, on the other hand, has very few planks that are treated more seriously - and it allows them to be taken more seriously.  OCAN is focusing on the scandals and their resolution; OCL is working on scandals, the charter, women in priesthood, and a myriad of other things.

Well, it looks like Orthodox Reform is another group all of the jurisdictions will have to deal with if our bishops hide immorality.

[Fr. George]

See, I'm wondering how much the intent is to cover-up and how much it is to be pastoral... For example, the Chancellor's office (Bishop SAVAS) did send the information about the Katinas suspension to the paper to be published, but the Archbishop's office called and stopped the publication, for reasons unknown. 

One of the things I found telling was that Bishop SAVAS told the Synod that he wouldn't disclose all the information about the suits to the Synod, because some of the members leak information to the press.  Considering that much of the information that his office deals with is considered private (for legal reasons), and that while he and his coworkers have signed non-disclosure agreements as part of their working in the Chancellor's office the synod has not signed such agreements, it makes sense that he wouldn't tell them the information, lest he break the law in doing so, and lest the synod members leak information to the press that is damaging to the people involved, be they perpetrators or victims.

What really drives me up a wall is how some members of the synod use the press to pit one against another; folks like the Archbishop, Bishop SAVAS, and Metropolitan ALEXIOS normally get caught in the crossfire for not playing that game.

[aserb]

  the true Body of Christ.     

Maybe you were writing in the heat of the moment, but I am always leery of people or a group who think of themselves as the "true Body of Christ."

[Veniamin]

Maybe you were writing in the heat of the moment, but I am always leery of people or a group who think of themselves as the "true Body of Christ."

So you're leery of the Orthodox Church?  The same Orthodox Church you're part of?

[aserb]

Venaimin:

No - I was referring to Cowboy's post where he stated that he and a slect group of laity are the "true" body of Christ in contrast to the OCA bishop's. Furthermore, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, stating that he probably wrote it in the heat of the moment. Cowboy, as a cradle Orthodox, probably has strong ties to his parish and it is understandable if he is heated.

It was just a comment and it was more in reference to Christians of all stripes some of whom believe they alone hold the truth and are the true church - - to the extent of being elitist or exclusivist.

I was once told by a priest that the truth should humble you, not make you arrogant. I know that the Orthodox church is the true body of Christ, but I do not go around claiming it or putting it in other people's faces.

[Veniamin]

Venaimin:

No - I was referring to Cowboy's post where he stated that he and a slect group of laity are the "true" body of Christ in contrast to the OCA bishop's. Furthermore, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, stating that he probably wrote it in the heat of the moment. Cowboy, as a cradle Orthodox, probably has strong ties to his parish and it is understandable if he is heated.

It was just a comment and it was more in reference to Christians of all stripes some of whom believe they alone hold the truth and are the true church - - to the extent of being elitist or exclusivist.

I was once told by a priest that the truth should humble you, not make you arrogant. I know that the Orthodox church is the true body of Christ, but I do not go around claiming it or putting it in other people's faces.

I know you were referring to Cowboy's post, but I think I read his differently than you did.  I thought the point he was making was that it's not the bishops who are the Body of Christ, but all of us, laity, priests, and bishops.  I read it as emphasizing that bishops are a portion of the body, not the sum total of it.

[aserb]

Venaimin:

I see you take on it. Maybe I misunderstood it or maybe I just pushed it through my own jaded understanding. I have been around too long and seen too much 

[Cowboy]

Aserb,

Veniamin captured my meaning EXACTLY. Sorry for the confusion.

Cowboy

[Fr. George]

Since a few days' postings have been lost, I figured I'd get in my moderation message before these various OCA debates get too fired up again.

Some folks here on the site have been put off by the unsubstantiated allegations that a few have put out here, including some of the posts which were lost.  So for future sake, let's follow the dignified and Christian way (especially for lent!) and only discuss what we know and/or can prove here; let's avoid innuendo, rumor, and unsubstantiated allegations.

Thank you very much.  Let me emphasize - this is not to stifle discussion about the serious, legitimate, and pressing issues of our Church.

Cleveland - GM

[Cowboy]

Good Morning Cleveland,

Has the ENTIRE thread--"What Should the OCA Do Now?"  been lost? That was the thread that everyone was posting to most recently.

Cowboy

[Fr. George]

It appears that it was lost as, iirc, it began during the period that has now been wiped out.

[aserb]

Maybe it was providnetial that some of the posts were lost as the allegations were getting pretty seemy. 

[FrChris]

All things are blessings from the Lord: na 'nai eulogemeno.

As Cleveland has reminded us, let's continue the banter but avoid insinuation or gossip.

[Cowboy]

For those of you who remember yesterday's exchanges regarding the recent actions of the OCA's +Dmitri, Metropolitan Herman just officially responed to him on the official OCA website. The letter is copied below:

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] — In a letter dated March 30, 2007, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, responded to a recent letter and posting by His Eminence, Archbishop Dmitri of Dallas and the South.

The text of Metropolitan Herman's letter reads as follows.

"Your Eminence and Concelebrant in the Lord:

"I received your letter dated March 22 and reviewed your posting on the Diocese of the South website dated March 28 and I must confess that I am confused by your mischaracterization of the events that took place at our most recent Holy Synod meeting and disappointed that you chose to permit the March 28 correspondence to be posted before you consulted with your brother Bishops. However, when I read the thinly veiled threats to sue the Church, the members of the Holy Synod and/or myself, it became clear to me that persons close to you must have 'assisted' you in preparing the letter since I am confident that you, who have given your life in service to Christ’s Church, would never consider such an option. Nevertheless, I must still clarify the confusion that has been caused, perhaps inadvertently, by the letter and the posting. While it is not my practice to put personal correspondence on our website, I am compelled in this instance to do so since your posting of March 28 has caused considerable turmoil throughout the Church.

"On March 20, the Holy Synod heard a presentation by Archbishop Job and Bishop Benjamin of the work of the Special Investigative Committee regarding allegations of financial improprieties committed by Fr. Robert S. Kondratick while he was Chancellor of the OCA. This presentation was accompanied by a written report which consisted of a detailed summary of the evidence to support the allegations that was uncovered by our law firm and accounting firm. The investigation was not 'fueled by fear and intimidation' as you allege, but was rather the result of nearly one year of deliberative investigative work. As you pointed out, the evidence presented was 'overwhelming.'

"Fr. Kondratick then presented himself to the Synod, allegedly to answer questions about the allegations concerning his misconduct. Contrary to the implication in your letter, neither I nor the Holy Synod requested his attendance at the meeting. Rather, as is clearly documented, it was Fr. Kondratick who asked to be permitted to address the Holy Synod to answer questions about the allegations against him. We consented only in deference to your request to permit him to do so even though he had ample opportunity to cooperate with the investigators yet either refused or failed to provide any credible evidence to explain his actions. After hearing his presentation, his answers to specific questions presented by members of the Synod, and after significant deliberation in executive session, it was concluded that his limited responses were neither credible nor adequate to explain his actions. The Holy Synod unanimously supported the immediate suspension of Fr. Kondratick. This action was not a 'synodal suspension' as you state, it was a recommendation for his Bishop to take corrective action.

"Our final session was held on March 22. At that time, you persuasively requested that I rescind Fr. Kondratick’s letter of transfer to the Diocese of the South. This request was based on your assertion that the actions complained of did not take place during the time that he was a priest in your diocese. Therefore, I agreed to your request and rescinded his transfer. Fr. Kondratick was notified in writing of his change in status.

These actions were taken at your request and with my approval and were witnessed by the Holy Synod. Thus, they are appropriate, legitimate and valid. Let me be clear on this point Your Eminence, Fr. Robert S. Kondratick is no longer under your omophorion; he was reassigned to Stavropeghial Status and he shall be permitted to serve in Venice until I send him further instructions.

"Your Eminence, let me respectfully suggest that that with Holy Week upon us that we focus our attention on Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, and speak no more of this matter until after the feast of Pascha.

"With brotherly love in Christ,

"+ HERMAN
Archbishop of Washington and New York
Metropolitan of All America and Canada"

Copies of Metropolitan Herman's letter were sent to all of the members of the Holy Synod of Bishops.
 
 

[cholmes]

Well that certainly was unexpected.   

[ialmisry]

I vote for other. I still believe that administration will be cleaned up and OCA will continue on healthier, bigger and stronger. It will be not easy it all, of course. Let us hope for the best. During the times of persecution, there were things much worse.

I just found this post very interesting in hindsight for its foresight. It may be even more interesting, depending on how this week turns out.

[pensateomnia]

I just found this post very interesting in hindsight for its foresight. It may be even more interesting, depending on how this week turns out.

Totally unrelated to the larger topic, but I couldn't help but smile at the irony of you highlighting a poster's ability to make prognostications/intimations about ecclesiastical goings-on. At this point, it's getting hard to remember how many melodramatic ones you've made before Chambesy, and, now, in the process leading up to the EA. As ozgeorge might say: good on ya for not losing your spunk (if that's the right word for continually touching a hot stove).  It does keep things interesting, though!

[ialmisry]

I just found this post very interesting in hindsight for its foresight. It may be even more interesting, depending on how this week turns out.

Totally unrelated to the larger topic, but I couldn't help but smile at the irony of you highlighting a poster's ability to make prognostications/intimations about ecclesiastical goings-on. At this point, it's getting hard to remember how many melodramatic ones you've made before Chambesy, and, now, in the process leading up to the EA. As ozgeorge might say: good on ya for not losing your spunk (if that's the right word for continually touching a hot stove).  It does keep things interesting, though!

How much "melodrama" is involved depends entirely on what happens next week.  I'm sitting on some speculations based on hearsay right now, waiting to see if it is information.  If so, things will be interesting.

[Achronos]

What was this whole scandal about?

[Agabus]

What was this whole scandal about?

Money. The most visible result of the scandal was Met. Herman's retirement and the election of Met. Jonah.

For more, read this.

[militantsparrow]

What scandal?

[88Devin12]

What scandal?

Was a few years ago, and had been going on for about a decade.

[ialmisry]

I just found this post very interesting in hindsight for its foresight. It may be even more interesting, depending on how this week turns out.

Totally unrelated to the larger topic, but I couldn't help but smile at the irony of you highlighting a poster's ability to make prognostications/intimations about ecclesiastical goings-on. At this point, it's getting hard to remember how many melodramatic ones you've made before Chambesy, and, now, in the process leading up to the EA. As ozgeorge might say: good on ya for not losing your spunk (if that's the right word for continually touching a hot stove).  It does keep things interesting, though!

The resurrection of this thread reminded me that I never asked what "melodramatic prognstications" were being referenced.

[Seraphim98]

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.

[88Devin12]

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.

But his statements, and the possible dissipation of of the OCA (in the event of a united jurisdiction) would have absolutely no relevance to this thread, this thread is about the financial scandal in the OCA, and that has nothing to do with the tomos, or the Episcopal Assembly.

[Marc1152]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

[podkarpatska]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

[ialmisry]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Right until the very end part.

The Tomos of 1970, and the support Moscow has advanced for it, and the ecclesiology/missionology and canonical theories that Moscow has held which support it paint Moscow into a corner out of which it cannot exit without conceding the Phanar's arguments (including canon 28). Not going to happen.


There is no reason for it either.  Nothing is would be gained, and giiven the rhetoric over the recent treaty etc. it seems Russophobia is alive and well in the US.  The preponderance of Urkainians means that Canada won't be rushing into Moscow's arms either.  Can't speak for Mexico.

There is a lot of talk about this in ROCOR, but I see little in the OCA or the Moscow Patriarchate. Quite the opposite.

[ialmisry]

Given what his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah said recently concerning the tomos of the OCA and the obstacle it represents to other Orthodox communions…the poll that originated this tread might have some life left in it yet.

what statement would that be?  I know His Beatitude made a number of statements that many read what they wanted-i.e. abolition of the OCA and foreign control of the Church in North America-into them.  HB, however, held out no hope of any such thing.

[Seraphim98]

From the Metropolitan's keynote address to the Church in Canada. The full transcript can be found on Ancient Faith Radio

“We did not take into account the necessary conciliar dimensions of our autocephaly, either on the local level or on the international level. We discounted the other Orthodox communities in America expecting them to submit to us, and we tried to persuade the other churches to accept our autocephaly even if it was anomalous and problematic. None of this was helpful. The situation in the world was also something radically different 40 years ago when then autocephaly was given. It was the height of the Cold War. It was the time of active persecution of the churches under the Communists, and there was no free interchange between the churches. The autocephaly marks a beginning of an ecclesiastical self-consciousness of the OCA as a uniquely North American church, but it has now also 40 years of additional maturity.

The autocephaly was right for its time, but the times have changed, and there are new demands on us. We’re being called to enter in to the greater conciliar dialogue of the churches in a way that has never existed before both on the local and the pan-Orthodox worldwide levels. And how we understand our autocephaly, or have we have understood our autocephaly, has become an obstacle rather than an aid to our participation. Over the next several months, the bishops and other leaders of the Church will gather to discuss the question of how to proceed. Nothing has been decided as of yet. But if we are to be full participants in the Episcopal Assembly process, we will have to alter our position.”

[Marc1152]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction. They may decide to remind everyone.

[ialmisry]

From the Metropolitan's keynote address to the Church in Canada. The full transcript can be found on Ancient Faith Radio

“We did not take into account the necessary conciliar dimensions of our autocephaly, either on the local level or on the international level. We discounted the other Orthodox communities in America expecting them to submit to us, and we tried to persuade the other churches to accept our autocephaly even if it was anomalous and problematic. None of this was helpful. The situation in the world was also something radically different 40 years ago when then autocephaly was given. It was the height of the Cold War. It was the time of active persecution of the churches under the Communists, and there was no free interchange between the churches. The autocephaly marks a beginning of an ecclesiastical self-consciousness of the OCA as a uniquely North American church, but it has now also 40 years of additional maturity.

The autocephaly was right for its time, but the times have changed, and there are new demands on us. We’re being called to enter in to the greater conciliar dialogue of the churches in a way that has never existed before both on the local and the pan-Orthodox worldwide levels. And how we understand our autocephaly, or have we have understood our autocephaly, has become an obstacle rather than an aid to our participation. Over the next several months, the bishops and other leaders of the Church will gather to discuss the question of how to proceed. Nothing has been decided as of yet. But if we are to be full participants in the Episcopal Assembly process, we will have to alter our position.”

It doesn't seem that His Beatuitue has altered his position:

Whatever the particularities, we remain steadfast in our vision that the only acceptable solution for North America is a fully inclusive, united autocephalous Church with a single synod of bishops, electing our own bishops and primate, and controlling our own life. We will remain committed to a vision of conciliarity, of catholicity on all levels, affirming that all Orthodox Christians should have a voice in the life of the Church. We are absolutely committed to the vision that our task is missionary, to bring the gospel to Americans, and to incorporate Americans into the communion of the Orthodox Church.

[ialmisry]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction.

no, it is not. At least that is what the Patrairch of Moscow and His Holy Synod of Russia have said

The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.
The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

The Exarchate of North and South America, together with the dioceses in the U.S.A. and Canada which comprised it, is abolished.

ALEXIS, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Members of the Holy Synod:

1. Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna, PIMEN
2. Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod, NIKODIM
3. Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, Exarch of the Ukraine, PHILARET
4. Metropolitan of Orel and Briansk, PALLADY
5. Metropolitan of Alma-Ata and Khazakstan, IOSIF
6. Metropolitan of Yaroslavl and Rostov, IOANN
7. Archbishop of Irkutsk and Tchita, VENIAMIN
8. Archbishop of Ufa and Sterlitamak, IOV
9. Archbishop of New York and the Aleutians, Exarch of North and South America, IONAFAN
10. Bishop of Kishinev and Moldavia, VARFOLOMEY
11. Bishop of Tula and Belev, IUVENALY
12. Bishop of Chernigov and Nezhinsk, VLADIMIR
13. Bishop of Smolensk and Viazmia, GEDEON
14. Chancellor of the Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan of Tallin and Estonia, ALEXEI

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
Русская Православная Церковь в США/Russian Orthodox Church in the USA

[Marc1152]

The most obvious thing that is happening is closer relations between Rocor and the OCA. Over time that may result in some sort of merging but that is a ways off yet, but relations are much warmer these days. You also need to keep in mind Met. Jonah is young and has lots of time, God willing, to assert his idea's and leadership. I think he is the future leader of American Orthodoxy. He is in the OCA but was raised in the Moscow Pat. he is Old Calendar personally...etc. He can bridge the gaps.

America is rightfully and historically under Russian Jurisdiction. That is where it will eventually end up again via Moscow's daughter Churches

Wow...I suspect there are a lot of us who don't see the future quite that clearly. Also - given the direction that Russia is going as a nation and its relationship with the United States in particular, I am not so sure many of us 'older folks' are remembering with any fondness the problems that past association with Russophilism caused the Church in year's past. That is not to say that the OCA will not be an important component of an American Orthodox Church but unity will not happen if it is viewed as a construct for Russian dominance in North America any more than if it is viewed as a vehicle for Hellenism.

The USA is technically under Russian Jurisdiction.

no, it is not. At least that is what the Patrairch of Moscow and His Holy Synod of Russia have said

The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.
The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

The Exarchate of North and South America, together with the dioceses in the U.S.A. and Canada which comprised it, is abolished.

ALEXIS, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Members of the Holy Synod:

1. Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna, PIMEN
2. Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod, NIKODIM
3. Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia, Exarch of the Ukraine, PHILARET
4. Metropolitan of Orel and Briansk, PALLADY
5. Metropolitan of Alma-Ata and Khazakstan, IOSIF
6. Metropolitan of Yaroslavl and Rostov, IOANN
7. Archbishop of Irkutsk and Tchita, VENIAMIN
8. Archbishop of Ufa and Sterlitamak, IOV
9. Archbishop of New York and the Aleutians, Exarch of North and South America, IONAFAN
10. Bishop of Kishinev and Moldavia, VARFOLOMEY
11. Bishop of Tula and Belev, IUVENALY
12. Bishop of Chernigov and Nezhinsk, VLADIMIR
13. Bishop of Smolensk and Viazmia, GEDEON
14. Chancellor of the Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan of Tallin and Estonia, ALEXEI

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
Русская Православная Церковь в США/Russian Orthodox Church in the USA

He said Moscow's daughter Church the OCA has jurisdiction. Maybe I didnt read far enough.

North America was first evangelized by Russians ( St. Herman, etc.)

Russia had jurisdiction

All communication stopped due to the Revolution

Other Jurisdictions who had set up shop asserted themselves within their own communities

Moscow grants independence to the OCA

The OCA technically has jurisdiction in North America

The ex-pat Russians (Rocor) make peace with Moscow. They allow an irregular situation to continue

Rocor and the OCA will eventually work out their relationship

Technically they will have Jurisdiction in North America

The Greeks and Arabs and Serbs and Romanians etc have no dejuire standing when you come down to it.

Big Ego's and defacto rule over various fiefdoms maintain the current irregular situation

I would think Moscow would back an OCA-Rocor leadership in North
America..

Stay tuned

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