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Author Topic: Why write to Rome?  (Read 6518 times) Average Rating: 0
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ignatius
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2007, 09:49:48 PM »

You told me first that you "know" I have been "struggling with the state of the Church" because I am dialoguing with Orthodox Christians, at which point I brought up John Paul and Benedict, who you claimed were also struggling with the state of the Church. You first seemed to mean it in terms of its truth claims, but then your "proof" for the two popes were rumors of disobedience by Vatican prelates. Those examples have to do with "purity" in the Church, or the sins of its members, and have nothing to do with its truth claims. I kindly pointed that out, at which point you pretty much repeated what I said, with the comment about "Holy Orthodoxy" being the true Church tacked on.

My first post on this thread to you was this one...

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Please take no offense lubeltri but as a departing Roman Catholic I feel that I can offer criticism. The Church has radically departed Holy Tradition since Vatican II. I honestly don't see any way around it my Latin Brother. 

I am not trying to upset you but being Catholic or ex-Catholic I know you have been struggling with the state of the Church also or you wouldn't be here in dialogue with Orthodox Christians.

Maybe we need to start a new topic but I'm very curious... What is keeping you in the Roman Catholic Church at the moment? Have you given any thought to perhaps entering the Orthodox Church? Seriously... Let's talk 'heart to heart' Brother.


Please note the sincere 'questioning' tone in my inquiry (not statement). I was not 'trolling' for an argument out of your so please don't paint yourself as a victim.

Quote
I am very much confused. Am I supposed to respond to this or ask you to "prove" it to me and Benedict and John Paul? We also have sought the "one" Church and found it in Catholicism. That's how it goes, I guess. But I just don't see the value of trumpeting your belief to others who believe differently as if we will suddenly see it your way. It's a conversation non-starter---"We're obviously the true Church." "No, we are." "No, we are." "No, we are." . . .

I don't believe there has been any trumpeting going on. As I pointed out my first posts were inquiries not statements and not trumpeting. Obviously you are uncomfortable and that if fine. I simply inquired and I also questioned if we shouldn't open a new topic.

Be Well.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2007, 09:43:07 AM »

Hello,

I cannot find the exact quote of Augustine. Here are a couple of other patristic texts that I have found:

Pope Julius I

"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).


Council of Sardica

And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow-bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province.

But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before. (Canon 3)

If it seems good to you, it is necessary to add to this decision full of sincere charity which thou hast pronounced, that if any bishop be deposed by the sentence of these neighbouring bishops, and assert that he has fresh matter in defence, a new bishop be not settled in his see, unless the bishop of Rome judge and render a decision as to this. (Canon 4)

The interesting thing here is that these seem to assert Rome as the court of appeal for disputes between bishops, but not any sort of general executive authority.  It's almost as though the Papal See was the "Supreme Court" of the Christian Church at that period of time, or at least that there was a movement or a body of opinion out there that would have it made such.  Is it then implicit that Peter has legislative and executive authority, though, to take this governmental metaphor a little further?  I'm not sure it is, though I'd be interested in seeing someone reason that out and present a case for it if they believe that it is in fact implicit.

If, however, we say that Rome functioned as simply the ultimate court of appeals in the early church, though, what would that mean for us today?  On the one hand, you would have the Roman Catholic Church, which sided with a symbol of unity and ancient judicial authority, thus giving them claim to the "masthead" of Christianity and also to have "legal" backing in some respects, but it would also mean that they'd have severely overstepped their bounds in terms of exercise of authority, which might even be a heresy depending on how far one would want to take it -- an usurpation of the proper roles of the councils or local bishops in terms of legislative and executive authority, and the requirement that communicants believe it to be true as a matter of faith.  Meanwhile, the Eastern Orthodox would have preserved the ancient system, but minus any sort of judiciary and without Peter, and without the will to exercise any sort of legislative and executive authority (Arguably a duty of the church, given that new issues arise as time moves on).  So, where would such a scenario, if true, lead one to conclude?  Are there two pieces of the one true church?  Or is there another way to read it?
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minasoliman
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« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2007, 10:27:16 PM »

I would indeed go along with Fish and Bread and agree that this means Rome was the "Supreme Court" of appeals in cases where bishops are at irreconcilable odds.  What may be misunderstood is this:

Quote
if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters

The Church of Alexandria is considered historically the "Evangelical Church" honoring the memory of St. Mark, and she wrote encyclicals for many churches worldwide.  Does that mean that the Church of Alexandria is the "only" church that should evangelize, or that because other sees do not have St. Mark as their first bishop automatically mean that they shouldn't evangelize or write encyclicals?

Rome is head because it is Rome.  Nicea writes thus in a more realistic manner:

Quote
The Bishop of Alexandria shall have jurisdiction over Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis.  As also the Roman bishop over those subject to Rome.  So, too, the Bishop of Antioch and the rest over those who are under them.  If any be a bishop contrary to the judgment of the Metropolitan, let him be no bishop.  Provided it be in accordance with the canons by the suffrage of the majority, if three object, their objection shall be of no force. (Canon 6)

Notice, Constantinople is almost unknown until the second ecumenical council:

Quote
The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome. (Canon 3)

The reason Constantinople now has such a high honor is because it is considered the "new Rome."  Rome here is implicatively defined as a major city, not as a city of St. Peter (although it is truthfully and undeniably.  If the latter, would Constantinople be considered "New Rome," or the "New honor of St. Peter?"

I don't think it's wrong to honor Rome with the allegorical honor of St. Peter, but I think there was a misunderstanding in history as what it means to honor the city of St. Peter.

God bless.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 10:29:59 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2007, 03:25:42 AM »

I don't want to get off the wrong foot but I kinda feel like the point is mute since the Roman Catholic Church deviated so far from Holy Orthodoxy in the last several hundred years. At this point I really don't see the solving of this particular issue being a catalyst for unity in doctrine. The Romans are simply way too far off base at this point as much I lament that fact.

Do you mean 'the point is moot'?
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ignatius
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2007, 03:03:28 PM »

Do you mean 'the point is moot'?

You would be correct. My bad!
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2007, 07:06:33 PM »

You would be correct. My bad!

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11236.msg152279.html#msg152279

Hahaha Cheesy
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