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The young fogey
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« on: May 06, 2003, 11:33:23 AM »

St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada:



Now where, oh, where did I ever get the notion that the rank and file in Slavic Byzantine Catholic churches don't really want to be Eastern?

Could it be because within bicycling distance of my home (I've walked there too) there is a Ukrainian Catholic church that resembles this one?

Sure, it's Catholic. Sure, it's bare-bones orthodox. But Byzantine? No. And it seems the rank and file like it that way.

To be fair, there is also a beautiful Ukrainian Catholic church nearby in the city that is definitely Eastern in appearance.

And to be fair, there is a stack of papal documents telling them not to bastardize their churches.

But this type in the Ukrainian Catholic rank and file define themselves primarily using negatives - adopting and brandishing Polishisms to say they're not Russian. And at the same time keeping a few leftover Easternisms (Russianisms) to show they're not Polish.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 11:40:52 AM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2003, 12:40:45 PM »

I shall have to agree with you on this one, Serge.  Change for the worse can happen overnight, but change for the better can sometimes take decades, and in the case of some Byzantine Catholic churches, will probably take centuries Wink.
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2003, 07:32:00 PM »

This is one sorry example of a so-called "Byzantine Rite" Catholic church, Serge.  I've been exposed to others through the years (one was even Melkite and one was Ukrainian with statues, Stations of the Cross and no iconostases), but those parishes now look very respectably Byzantine--the statues are all gone, beautiful icons have been installed in new churches, and, best of all, very nice peek-a-boo style guilded iconostases!  

The Hungarian Byzantine Rite Catholic Church of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Manhattan, however, was by far the most Latinized Uniate church I've ever seen--a Latin-style communion railing where one would expect an iconostas, a Latin style altar and tabernacle, statues, and Stations of the Cross on the walls (I can't remember any icons there at all, but it was years ago).

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2003, 09:36:04 PM »

[can of worms opening]

I think it is the Pope's desire that the uniates become more eastern as he sees Byzantine Christianity as an authentic expression of Catholicism (of course some here wouldn't agree with me). Hypo's experience seems to confirm that easternization somewhat. How all of that fits into the filioque, purgatory and the IC is still what I struggle with. Just how eastern can they get before being Orthodox?

Matt
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2003, 10:02:14 PM »

I know of a little BC Church in Linden, Virginia, that looks about as Byzantine as one could possibly imagine. Neat little Church. Some good friends of mine go there.
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2003, 11:48:54 PM »

Friends,

XB!

"Uniatism" is an interesting topic indeed, especially for me.   I am not too convinced if a church looks more Orthodox it is, I think the reverse is more often the case.  An analogy I like is the Anglican one, are they RCs if they look and act like RCs?  No, the RCs don't say they are because of 1) differences in faith and 2) lack of communion.  I think the same analogy can be applied to the Orthodox/Greek Catholic situation.

As for the filioque, purgatory and IC I don't see how to get away from them.  AFAIK Rome does not consider these negotiables.  That these notions are held by more or less of the people is one thing, that they are present or not in the texts is also another issue, but I think something important is when the filioque was removed in at least one Ruthenian diocese an article was published in that diocese's newspaper saying that even if it is not said (as it should not be, I agree) it cannot be rejected as a belief.

Matt when you say
Quote
Just how eastern can they get before being Orthodox?
Do you mean as a body or as individuals?

Tony
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2003, 06:02:00 PM »

St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada:

The "spirit" of Vatican II put in practice?
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2003, 07:22:36 PM »

St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada:

The "spirit" of Vatican II put in practice?


 No,

           more like the Tridentinization of the Eastern Catholic Church.  Vatican II called  on Eastern Catholics to restore their heritage and this parish is not a good example of that call of Vatican II
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2003, 08:41:22 AM »

When some one starts talking about the "spirit of Vatican II" in justifying some Catholic innovation, it's a pretty safe bet that it's something that the letter of Vatican II doesn't have much use for, in my experience anyway.
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2003, 05:33:01 PM »

When some one starts talking about the "spirit of Vatican II" in justifying some Catholic innovation, it's a pretty safe bet that it's something that the letter of Vatican II doesn't have much use for, in my experience anyway.


You've got that right Keble!

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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2003, 07:32:51 PM »

But the tridentines have a lot of images and statues and elaborated altars, and this Church doesn't have any.
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2003, 07:47:40 PM »

XB!

The Ruthenians in the USA started removing icon screens in the '50s that would be the time of the Tridentine Mass still.  If memory serves that was under Elko and the consensus is that it was an effort to Americanize.

No doubt in some places Americanize equalled Tridentinize and such consequences can still be seen.

Tony
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2003, 10:10:03 PM »

Tony,

     Yes, but that since has changed in some places, which was stated above. Sorry, I didn't respond to your post earlier, but I was at my sister's graduation from Virginia Tech. I meant both individual BCs and the BC churches becoming Orhodox. Just an open question I was discussing with someone the other day.

Matthew
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2003, 10:41:24 PM »

Tony,
Yes, but that since has changed in some places, which was stated above. Matthew

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Matthew,

I'm not trying to be dense but I am not sure to what you refer above.

Tony
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2003, 10:49:09 PM »

I meant both individual BCs and the BC churches becoming Orhodox. Just an open question I was discussing with someone the other day.
Matthew

Matthew,

I don't really foresee any BC jurisdiction "returning to Orthodoxy" as an integral body, do you?  

I think for individuals it is another story.  There are many, many former BCs in the Orthodox Church today in the USA and no doubt abroad, although in some places that can be more difficult  

Someone once said (it might have been Magocsi I don't recall) that Orthodoxy was/is the escape valve for BCs.  I think in many ways that is true.  I had one professor once estimate as many as 90% of would-be BCs in the USA are now outside of the BC church.  That is not all due to convictions regarding theology, practice, discipline etc., but some of it is.  

Just some thoughts from one former BC.

Tony
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2003, 02:19:25 PM »

The spirit of Vatican II is a euphamism for Modernism and liberalism that is implemented "in the spirit of Vatican II".  Vatican II also called for Gregorian Chant to be the primary music used at Latin Rite Masses and most of the ordinary being in Latin.  You don't see that either do you?

Yes the Iconostasis were removed prior to Vatican II.  Yes there were Latinizations.  These were mostly stemming from a complete lack of knowledge of Eastern Christendom.  

Also one must never forget that liberalils were not the invention of the post-vatican II RCC.

That Church doesn't look Catholic at all.  It looks like a Prot Church with a communion table in the center.

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2003, 04:37:47 PM »


That Church doesn't look Catholic at all.  It looks like a Prot Church with a communion table in the center.


I dunno-- to me it looks quite typical of recent American RC architectural practice, except for the sanctuary in the apse part. More typically these days the sanctuary consists of a large elevated platform jutting out into the central space with no barriers between it and the rest of the church other than steps, like at the excrable new cathredral in L.A.

I've seen some wierd RC stuff of late; there's a church a ways west of us which has the typical iconography of an Eastern iconostasis-- but it's a Novus Ordis church, and the icons are high p on the back wall.  Huh
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2003, 03:06:47 AM »

Joe:

yes that's what I meant, i used the term "spirit" of Vatican II meaning the ffalse spirit of Vatican II, and not what vatican II realy meant.
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2003, 11:30:09 PM »

Hi, I am new here. I am a Roman Catholic Seminarian and I have some thoughts on this suject.

As many said, the Spirit of Vatican II is false. It is a term used by Modernists to make it appear they are teaching the faith of the Catholic Church when in fact they are teaching what Pope's from Pius X to John-Paul II all condemned (from Abortion to Women Priests). The same holds true for Church appears and the Mass. Those have also not been spared.

For some reason or another, many Eastern Catholic Church latinized. This is dumb IMHO. Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholic and should remain faithful to the traditions of the East. In my area, many Eastern Church's are restoring their traditions and ending decades of latinzation. This is all at the call of John-Paul II. I am not sure about the rest of the country. Latinization of the East is inconsistent with Vatican II, and the decrees of the Pope.

There is light at the end of the tunnel anyway. This has already started in the East and is begining in the West. I expect great liturgical changes in the Roman Church over the next 5 to 15 years. I think eventually, people who build Church's like the LA Cathedral are going to regret it. Tommorrow (May 24) for the first time since 1969, the Tridentine Latin Mass will be celebrated in a Papal Basilica in Rome. There are also rumors that Rome will life all sanctions on the Old Rite by years end. Even going as far as requiring every Church to have at least one a week (this seems unlikely though, at this time anyway). Rome is also going to be issuing a document on Liturgical Abuse by the end of the year. Eventually, and this is an opinion shared by high Prelates from Rome, I believe the two missals will be merged. This will take years though, if it even happens. If this happens, obviously this will help things between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. As well as help heal schisms in our own Church over the liturgy.

What does this have to do with anything? It has to do with that false spirit of Vatican II which has between destroying not only Roman Traditoin, but obviously Eastern as well. The East went from Latinzation to Protestantizing now.

Oh well, I hope this makes sense.
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2003, 01:15:19 AM »

My convictions concerning the subject of Vatican II echo the sentiments of a friend.  In brief, it was a catastrophe and disastrous mistake of immense proportions in prudential judgement, but the one golden nugget to come from the Council was its voice concerning the matter of the Eastern Churches.  This development was not only desirable, but extremely necessary, and thank God for it.  

However, what is put on paper usually does not take on flesh quickly or at all, as experience and knowledge of ecclesiastical politics teach us.  I expect something important and favourable to the traditional Mass to come out of tomorrow's announcement.  It could be an accomplishment in itself, but one must keep in mind that words are words that will need to overcome many hurdles to become reality.  Hopefully positive things will result quickly.  H.H. hasn't many years left, and I'm sure would want this matter to conclude before his time comes.  God-willing, no canonical impediments will stand in the way of what conceivably could be granted tomorrow.

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